If Bill’s roster falls apart…
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Bill in a way is a victim of his own success. I remember the streak talk. How Bill cares more about, what is arguably one of the greatest sports accomplishments of all time, in the streak rather than focusing on a Natty.
Now in what is just a “bad” season (likely to end in a top 5 seed in the tournament for the 2nd season in a row), people are calling for his head.
Bunch of spoiled little babies you are. Unrealistic expectations are why Nebraska football is in the fucking toilet. Ungrateful and childish fanbase.
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@Kcmatt7 said in If Bill’s roster falls apart…:
@kjayhawks said in If Bill’s roster falls apart…:
Like I said earlier this season it doesn’t matter the coach or the sport eventually time catches up and their philosophy don’t work anymore to most coaches unless you retire after a good season. It happen to Dean Smith, Bobby knight, Tom Landry and Hank Stram. It’s the ole Batman line either you die a hero or live long enough to become the villain.
Dean Smith made a FF his final year coaching! And was only 4 years removed from his 2nd Natty Lmao.
So did K! Who missed the tourney at least once I can remember with Duke. But the game didn’t pass him by.
Izzo has had ups and downs and has a team who could definitely make a FF run this season.
What philosophy does Self have that is causing the game to pass him by?
I didn’t say Coach K anywhere in my post and a lot of people were mad a Smith for only winning 2 titles with the guys he had. What about the others I listed?
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@kjayhawks said in If Bill’s roster falls apart…:
@Kcmatt7 said in If Bill’s roster falls apart…:
@kjayhawks said in If Bill’s roster falls apart…:
Like I said earlier this season it doesn’t matter the coach or the sport eventually time catches up and their philosophy don’t work anymore to most coaches unless you retire after a good season. It happen to Dean Smith, Bobby knight, Tom Landry and Hank Stram. It’s the ole Batman line either you die a hero or live long enough to become the villain.
Dean Smith made a FF his final year coaching! And was only 4 years removed from his 2nd Natty Lmao.
So did K! Who missed the tourney at least once I can remember with Duke. But the game didn’t pass him by.
Izzo has had ups and downs and has a team who could definitely make a FF run this season.
What philosophy does Self have that is causing the game to pass him by?
I didn’t say Coach K anywhere in my post and a lot of people were mad a Smith for only winning 2 titles with the guys he had. What about the others I listed?
Two NFL coaches and Bobby Knight whose very clear phimosphy issue was that he was an extremely abusive shithead?
What specific philosophy does Bill Self have that the game has passed him by? Cmon. I want to hear it.
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@Kcmatt7 playing 2 and 3 big men against teams with stretch 4s. Playing experience over talent this entire year. Bill Belichick is another prime example of dying a hero or living to become the villain. That’s pretty much how coaching and professional sports are buddy. You never ever even remotely convince me of other wise see examples almost every year.
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@kjayhawks another NFL coach lol.
He’s won playing many different schemes. I won’t buy the idea he is stuck on a scheme that is out of date because he’s proven he’ll change.
Maybe he is too loyal for the era. Maybe. I’m not willing to fire him after a couple of “bad” seasons because of it lol.
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@Kcmatt7 I’m not going to go back and forth here, as I said you will never even come remotely close to convincing me. Bill Self is a prime example of my argument, I’ve never seen more KU fans calling for change before this season started. It’s all over X and Facebook nearly every game. Very few coaches retire on good terms look at Florida states basketball coach Hambelton this year and Jim however the heck you spell his name at Miami this season. Two beloved coaches just a few short years ago.
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Yes let’s fire the best coach we’ve ever had based on vibes.
Fire Andy Reid while we’re at it!
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@Kcmatt7 I’m not necessarily saying firing him right now but his seat should start getting warm if next season is similar to these two. If he wins 7 games next year do you still say we can’t fire him he’s the best we’ve had? Time is undefeated on everyone my friend. Its the Lavar Ball Neva lost of life man
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Beyond basketball, which Bill absolutely deserves to hang around, it would be a nearly $30 million expense plus paying buyouts and salaries of a new staff, so probably over $40 million total. Looking forward to the proposals on how to pay for that when we have NIL, RevShare, and finishing the stadium on the ADs books.
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@FarmerJayhawk realistically Bill Self will be here for as long as he wants to be for many reasons. I just hope he leaves when the time is right for everyone and if we continue down our current path I hope it’s sooner rather than later. The last 2 years haven’t been fun and it’s hardly been the Kansas basketball we have grown to love under Roy and Bill. It’s sad but a very factual statement. I don’t look forward to the games anymore for the first time in my life.
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@kjayhawks the Roy thing I don’t get. In 14 years at KU, he got bounced in the second round 5 times, the Sweet 16 4, Elite Eight once, 3 final fours, 2 championship games, 0 titles. By any measure Bill has been far better than Roy at KU. If Bill had Roy’s record at KU people would be chasing him out of Lawrence with torches and pitchforks.
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I’ve always been a huge Self fan. And yes, he’s probably been the master of consistent winning basketball in D1 for his entire time at Kansas.
Last year and this year… it’s more than just the huge piles of losses. It’s the eye test over the season. It’s hard to see any appreciable gain with this team since December. Same with last year’s team. We are the most-experienced team in D1 but they often play like freshmen. That is extremely frustrating to watch. You have to wonder just what do these guys learn in practice?
It’s so frustrating that even with the knowledge of downgrading our program with a new coach, it’s hard not to wonder if it’s worth making the move.
I watch other teams, like Duke, UCONN, Gonzaga, etc etc etc and I see players coached up much higher.
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I feel like I know Bill well enough to state that he won’t make huge changes in the program between now and when he retires. He definitely lost a step in his physicality that also means mentality, too.
The game is changing rapidly. We all know that. This isn’t Bill’s fault. We are already seeing older coaches stepping down because they know they can’t keep up. If Bill wants to keep going and with the possibility of bringing home another nattie, he’d have to make changes he doesn’t want to make. His assistants and staff, probably all, would need to go and replaced with youth, often lacking similar experience but gifted in other areas he’s untrained in. Hopefully, he would also have one of those guys structured as a protege/replacement.
So much of this is generational differences. I know if I was a recruit… I’d easily pick Duke over Kansas. I’m sure I could accept learning easier from Scheyer and his staff over Self and his staff. It’s generational.
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@Kcmatt7 if you can refrain from calling me “really fucking stupid” because I express an opinion different than yours it would be appreciated.
Also, I didnt say fire him. I said move on from him. Yes, theres a difference. If Goff gives him next year with another diminshed roster, he can still “move on”, i.e. start thinking about life after Bill. Consider options, plan, figure out how to talk to Bill about it and have those conversations. I am in favor of Bill walking away on his own terms but in our 3rd consecutive down year, it becomes clear that he is having problems “leveling up” and navigating “the back nine”, and if it causes our roster construction next year to again be weak, which is a large chunk of the problem, then we arent solving anything and its time to figure out a peaceful transition of power.
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@approxinfinity said in If Bill’s roster falls apart…:
@Kcmatt7 if you can refrain from calling me “really fucking stupid” because I express an opinion different than yours it would be appreciated.
Also, I didnt say fire him. I said move on from him. Yes, theres a difference. If Goff gives him next year with another diminshed roster, he can still “move on”, i.e. start thinking about life after Bill. Consider options, plan, figure out how to talk to Bill about it and have those conversations. I am in favor of Bill walking away on his own terms but in our 3rd consecutive down year, it becomes clear that he is having problems “leveling up” and navigating “the back nine”, and if it causes our roster construction next year to again be weak, which is a large chunk of the problem, then we arent solving anything and its time to figure out a peaceful transition of power.
Meh semantics.
Spoiled ass fanbase opinion. Won’t let it go unchecked. Suspend me or whatever I don’t really care. You guys need to get a grip on reality, it’s really sad to see.
“I didn’t say fire him, I said move on. There’s a difference!” lol whatever man.
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@drgnslayr said in If Bill’s roster falls apart…:
I feel like I know Bill well enough to state that he won’t make huge changes in the program between now and when he retires. He definitely lost a step in his physicality that also means mentality, too.
The game is changing rapidly. We all know that. This isn’t Bill’s fault. We are already seeing older coaches stepping down because they know they can’t keep up. If Bill wants to keep going and with the possibility of bringing home another nattie, he’d have to make changes he doesn’t want to make. His assistants and staff, probably all, would need to go and replaced with youth, often lacking similar experience but gifted in other areas he’s untrained in. Hopefully, he would also have one of those guys structured as a protege/replacement.
So much of this is generational differences. I know if I was a recruit… I’d easily pick Duke over Kansas. I’m sure I could accept learning easier from Scheyer and his staff over Self and his staff. It’s generational.
The Zags who suck this year under 62 year old Few? And we’re a 5-seed last year?
Duke who the last two years with ungodly talent were a 4 and 5 seed in the tourney?
just all vibes with people here rn.
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@Kcmatt7 i am still level headed, and yes, I chose my words carefully. Moving on has no implicit timeframe, firing is inmediate.
Why would I suspend you? I want to debate without getting derailed by these being troubled times. Lets continue, please.
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@FarmerJayhawk people were devastated when Roy left and I was definitely one of them. Only complaints I have of Roy is not recruiting East of the Mississippi and not winning the big game. Self had more first round exits that Roy in year two here and his winning percentage in round two is much worse than Roy’s.
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@approxinfinity said in If Bill’s roster falls apart…:
@Kcmatt7 i am still level headed, and yes, I chose my words carefully. Moving on has no implicit timeframe, firing is inmediate.
Why would I suspend you? I want to debate without getting derailed by these being troubled times. Lets continue, please.
Its semantics. I mean, why would you even let him “waste” another season? If you don’t think he can do the job, then stand on your words and proclaim them. Fire Bill Self!
I mean why give the guy a swan song if he sucks at coaching now? Rip off the band aid. Start the petitions. Start the fundraising. Let’s get his ass out of here. I wouldn’t even wipe my ass with a Bill Self autograph at this point he sucks so bad.
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@Kcmatt7 are you being level headed right now? Lol
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@kjayhawks said in If Bill’s roster falls apart…:
@FarmerJayhawk people were devastated when Roy left and I was definitely one of them. Only complaints I have of Roy is not recruiting East of the Mississippi and not winning the big game. Self had more first round exits that Roy in year two here and his winning percentage in round two is much worse than Roy’s.
Literally same number of NCAA tournament wins during Roy’s UNC tenure as Bill had here.
45 to 45.
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@approxinfinity said in If Bill’s roster falls apart…:
@Kcmatt7 are you being level headed right now? Lol
I’m on team vibes now bro. You changed my mind. Bill Self can’t coach his way out of a wet paper bag anymore. If he loses a single recruit I may not watch him coach another game either.
We should seriously look at Tang as a replacement.
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@Kcmatt7 Having a HOF coach who is stuck in his ways languish for 3 years as the landscape of college basketball shifts under his feet and most of his peers retire is hard.
These are not “normal” times.
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@approxinfinity said in If Bill’s roster falls apart…:
@Kcmatt7 Having a HOF coach who is stuck in his ways languish for 3 years as the landscape of college basketball shifts under his feet and most of his peers retire is hard.
These are not “normal” times.
I know. Fire him! Scott Drew as a replacement? Who’s your shortlist?
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@Kcmatt7 i never said fire him, i never said he sucks or can’t coach. Those are your frustrations being projected.
X’s and O’s has never been a problem for Self.
This is about roster construction.
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@Kcmatt7 i dont have a shortlist. I’m sure others more knowledgeable about up and comers can assist there.
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@approxinfinity said in If Bill’s roster falls apart…:
@Kcmatt7 i never said fire him, i never said he sucks or can’t coach. Those are your frustrations being projected.
X’s and O’s has never been a problem for Self.
This is about roster construction.
You know what recruits really well? Crazy Faith.
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@Kcmatt7 your deep devotion to Bill is endearing. Dont change, bro.
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@StLJhawk One difference being that the Chiefs have won consistently for at least 3 years (although not convincingly this year) and KU has sucked bathwater for 2+ years.
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@nuleafjhawk not even freshman bathwater. Old man transfer and upperclassmen bathwater.
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How good would last years team have been if the rapist wouldn’t have raped or Kevin’s knee would’ve been ok and Timberlake would’ve been as advertised?
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@approxinfinity said in If Bill’s roster falls apart…:
@Kcmatt7 your deep devotion to Bill is endearing. Dont change, bro.
I mean when a guy wins 2 Nattys he should be basically untouchable. There are 8 programs in the history of the sport with more than 2 nattys. Programs. Not coaches. Programs. His last natty wasn’t even 5 years ago. You don’t just “move on” from guys who have proven they can win the big one.
It is actually more likely than not that Mark Pope doesn’t win a Natty at Kentucky than he does. UCLA has won only one Natty since Wooden-era. In '95. Indiana hasn’t won one since Knight.
It is a hard thing to do and this fanbase doesn’t appreciate that enough.
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@nuleafjhawk said in If Bill’s roster falls apart…:
@StLJhawk One difference being that the Chiefs have won consistently for at least 3 years (although not convincingly this year) and KU has sucked bathwater for 2+ years.
Remind me what happens when you change that to 3+
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@Crimsonorblue22 maybe pretty good? But who recruited a rapist and an underwhelming mid major player, and played Kevin 34.2 mpg?
You arent wrong, and its worth giving credit to the vision, but theres also some responsibility for the outcome.
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We still had an underwhelming frontcourt @Crimsonorblue22 and didnt recruit to need there
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@approxinfinity who could foresee the future?
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I believe we beat UConn too.
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@dylans solid take. Thanks for the financial perspective. I wonder how a stretch of 4 underwhelming years affects brand and valuation.
Maybe a better question. To @Kcmatt7 @Crimsonorblue22 too.
Total hypothetical here. Lets say Bill wants to coach for 15 more years with similar roster problems the whole time and tourney flame outs. Give me a number of years. How many? How many years of this does he get before he needs to be convinced it is time to hang it up?
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Mind you I don’t think that Bill is infallible. His love affair with guys like Juan, KJ, Garrett, Traylor and Lucas have definitely limited his teams at times. I think he has really struggled with 1-year guys historically. In an era of a ton more 1-year guys I’m not surprised Bill is having some issues.
But what is the standard? You can’t go to a Natty or FF every season. Do we really care THAT much about a 2nd round flameout with a team that didn’t’ gel vs. an EE run?
Is he not entitled to a disappointing season after performing what felt like the impossible with some THIN rosters during the streak. The Natty runner up team where Justin-freaking-Wesley was getting rotational minutes should earn you grace when 5-seed season happens.
Coach k was a 6 seed or worse 6 times at Duke.
At KU, Bill Self has never been worse than a 4 seed. I mean, seriously, you folks do not appreciate this level of consistency enough.
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@approxinfinity said in If Bill’s roster falls apart…:
@dylans solid take. Thanks for the financial perspective. I wonder how a stretch of 4 underwhelming years affects brand and valuation.
Maybe a better question. To @Kcmatt7 @Crimsonorblue22 too.
Total hypothetical here. Lets say Bill wants to coach for 15 more years with similar roster problems the whole time and tourney flame outs. Give me a number of years. How many? How many years of this does he get before he needs to be convinced it is time to hang it up?
When he misses a tourney and he’s more than 5 years removed from a Natty, I’ll draft the petition myself.
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@Kcmatt7 all true, but next year will be 4 years if he has a dysfunctional roster.
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@Kcmatt7 Barnes got fired for less
failed to make sweet 16 seven years in a row. but ok. Look at Texas now, right?Thats a number. Thanks.
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The only reason this team is underwhelming is the talent was over-rated by the media, and because there are only 2 “it” coaches right now. That’s creates false expectations of being the number 1 team in the land.
The fans (short for fanatics let’s remember) start to froth at the mouth thinking about winning a crapshoot of a tournament. It’s in the bag with that preseason number one ranking. How could it not be? Then the reality of the season plays out and the team has more of a sweet 16 ceiling. Fans get pissed that they rooted for one of the best 20 teams in the nation, but not the one that got hot during the tournament.
Ever see a snake eating its own tail?
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@Kcmatt7 exactly
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@Crimsonorblue22 i think there were warning signs with Morris that were ignored, and there were other more proven D1 transfers than Timberlake we passed on. Not recruiting another big on that roster made no sense too.
had he recruited someone who could spell mccullar he wouldnt have needed to run him 34.2
I dont really understand how these arent questionable decisions, and how the head coach isn’t culpable, at least from the outside looking in, as we admittedly are.
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@Kcmatt7 it’s like K-Stater’s calling for Bill Snyder’s head. ( I don’t know if they did or not…just an example). That dude single handedly resurrected Purple Football from an absolute death sentence and made them consistently respectable. IMO it’s in line with what Self has done with KU Basketball. Self is not MY problem with KU Basketball right now. It’s the F-ing portal. It’s the NIL. I know I’ve harped on it a lot, but it bugs the crap out of me. I want 4 year players who play for the love of the game and not for God only knows how much pay they get for doing a Ford commercial.
Self is not the (only) problem. They players have to play. Any guy that does THIS - should not have to answer to fans about his performance: He has two national championships, 20 regular season conference titles, nine conference tournament championships and the most wins of any coach in Kansas history.
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@approxinfinity said in If Bill’s roster falls apart…:
@Kcmatt7 Barnes got fired for less
failed to make sweet 16 seven years in a row. but ok. Look at Texas now, right?Thats a number. Thanks.
For less? Remind me how many National Championships he has? Remind me who has done better since he left. UT or Tennessee?
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@Kcmatt7 right. But my point is that people get tired of fizzling out in the tournament consistently.
We can revisit after year 5 I guess.
If Bill retains his roster next year and bolsters with a few good portal pieces there is a good chance we will not be having these conversations. Fingers crossed
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@nuleafjhawk said in If Bill’s roster falls apart…:
@Kcmatt7 it’s like K-Stater’s calling for Bill Snyder’s head. ( I don’t know if they did or not…just an example). That dude single handedly resurrected Purple Football from an absolute death sentence and made them consistently respectable. IMO it’s in line with what Self has done with KU Basketball. Self is not MY problem with KU Basketball right now. It’s the F-ing portal. It’s the NIL. I know I’ve harped on it a lot, but it bugs the crap out of me. I want 4 year players who play for the love of the game and not for God only knows how much pay they get for doing a Ford commercial.
Self is not the (only) problem. They players have to play. Any guy that does THIS - should not have to answer to fans about his performance: He has two national championships, 20 regular season conference titles, nine conference tournament championships and the most wins of any coach in Kansas history.
They are so lucky Snyder came back to resurrect the program a 2nd time. He owed them nothing. They did run him off after a couple of missed bowl games, and they got Ron Prince for it. Should be a lesson to all.
Also - Syder had just won 11 games consecutively right before the two bad seasons. But he was washed after two bad seasons… Only to return at age 70 and salvage the program for that 2nd time. And then get ran off for a 2nd time after a 5-7 season 9 years later (having won 8 games the season before). Though I think he did assist in the coaching search and had a lot to do with them getting Kleiman who has been pretty solid.
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@Kcmatt7 said in If Bill’s roster falls apart…:
Though I think he did assist in the coaching search and had a lot to do with them getting Kleiman who has been pretty solid.
And theres the hook I am looking for, the bridge.
Peaceful transition of power.
I want Bill and Goff to figure out what that looks like before he is riding on fumes.
Goff has to keep Bill on task here.
