My crisis of faith in Bill
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Well, there is certainly high drama right now, and I enjoy hearing some of the less belabored points of criticism.
Dramatic is good and I am all for a glorious finish to the season. But I think as you seem to be alluding to @MoonwalkMafia, one could argue that some of Bill Self’s greatest successes have hinged on having his hand forced by circumstances out of his control, and then adapting to it.
He has made more out of less with some of our more limited teams, less out of some of our more talented teams, and champions and runners up in 2022 and 2012 out of two teams where the talent he had was used to their max potential in the tourney.
It should not be a surprise to anyone that he sticks to his habits given the amount of success he has had with them.
But I do hope that KJs absence will force him to adapt because he is remarkably adaptable given how stubborn and resistant to change he is.
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@SlimShaddy54 BS on players not caring! Juan and KJ love KU, they came here before the NIL.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Sure. Dave was an interesting exception, though. He showed some real promise on a bad team in 2021. In 2022 though? He took a step back. His scoring average dipped quite a bit. Let’s not rewrite history, he really struggled.
Now, that being said, I don’t give a crap about the regular season given what he did in the tournament. And I’ll fight anyone who says his number shouldn’t be retired because Ochai won the MOP in the Final 4. Dave McCormack won KU the national championship. In almost every way that changes how he’s remembered. But over the course of the previous 30 games he really struggled.
Bringing up Remy, though…we should hang his picture at the top of this message board on this topic. Do we all have amnesia? Bill Self hated Remy Martin. He refused to play him. That was the case in the exhibition games. Bill Self was forced to play Remy Martin and it resulted in a championship. That wasn’t Bill Self knowing which buttons to press, he had no choice. The guy he was playing 30 mpg at point guard couldn’t score and we needed a spark. Remy carried us through that win over Providence, and there’s a case to be made that Remy was actually the MVP of the national championship.
I don’t know that I’m really trying to make a strong argument for anything. I’m consigned to our fate at this point, but I guess you’re right @approxinfinity that’s probably more or less what I’m getting at. I’ve watched KU long enough at this point to recognize the trends. And this is a fun therapeutic thing to do on Friday night while I watch the Sopranos lol.
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@MoonwalkMafia I don’t know who the hell this guy is but he articulates everything I’ve been saying but way better
It wasn’t just Brady it was Tyrel as well
Why Bill does this I will never know but it’s crazy to think but he would have won more had he played the best offensive players, adjusted his scheme and not favored some lesser players
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@MoonwalkMafia Landen Lucas was a better player than Cheick Diallo. Jamari was better than Cliff. Bill gave both Cheick and Cliff ample chances. At one point he started Cliff over Jamari for a few games just in hopes it would jumpstart Cliff and help him reach his potential. It didn’t. Sometimes players just don’t perform and need to take a back seat to others with less talent but who are just better players.
None of this is to say Bill is perfect or that he has never made a wrong decision in whom to play. But neither Cliff nor Cheick was benched for a lesser player just because of “trust” or anything like that.
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@kuballin10 I’m an old head. One of the originals from when there was an initial departure from KUSports.com to this site.
There are a lot of KU players over the years that fall into the category we’ve been talking about (Traylor, Lucas, Morningstar, even Marcus Garrett at times)…but I liked Tyrel Reed. He was a Kansas guy that was a 41 percent 3 point shooter. What I wouldn’t give for anyone on our team to shoot that well.
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@kuballin10 We went something like 35-3 with Brady and Tyrel starting as seniors. I don’t think there is any reason to doubt Bill’s decision to start them. If we really want to look at situations where Self played the wrong guys, I think not playing Naadir Tharpe enough in 2013 (I know that sounds weird, but Tharpe was the only true PG that year and we needed that) and not playing Andrew White III enough when he was here were mistakes.
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@Jhawk69 Those guys were never given the same opportunity of Traylor or KJ or Juan
Had they I think it’s obvious those guys would have helped the team more than the lower level guys playing above them because “Self trusted them”
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@Jhawk69 Yeah “Frank wasn’t ready” yet we got bounced in the round of 32 and Self was playing frankamp more minutes in desperation
Another point of complete roster mis-usage that from October to March Self still couldn’t figure out the best pg on the roster (Mason)
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@Jhawk69 Then why don’t their stats reflect it? Cliff averaged almost as twice as much scoring of either and outrebounded both of them. Even looking at totals he was clearly the better option than either of them only playing about 2/3 of the minutes played compared to Traylor and pretty much the same as Lucas. And as far as the games started…one was against Temple when we got blown out, and the other 5 were his last 5 games at KU, which suggests that Self probably realized who gave us the best chance.
I’m not gonna sit here and act like Cliff didn’t have his problems. He clearly did. That’s why he didn’t even finish out the season. But at the time it was clear he was the better option. I’ll give you Diallo, he probably didn’t show enough. But he also averaged 7.5 mpg. At the time it was frustrating because we all knew what Lucas’ ceiling was. Diallo’s was much higher.
I watched every minute of KU bball during those years and, I’m sorry, Landen Lucas wasn’t very good. He was serviceable. He was a nice kid. He was in some of my classes at KU. But he wasn’t the caliber of player we see very often here. I don’t think he would’ve started for any other team in the Big 12 at the time.
I agree with you about both takes on Tharpe, White, and Reed. I honestly liked Tharpe. I thought he was better than most KU fans remember. White was a good player too. He looked good when he was on the floor too. He would’ve been a great guy to have for 4 years. And I’ll never say a bad word about Reed. When @kuballin10 kept saying Tyrel I thought there must’ve been another Tyrel that I forgot about lol.
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@MoonwalkMafia Cliff averaged 2 more points and 1 more rebound than Jamari with approximately the same amount of minutes. Cliff was also a HUGE liability on defense. Jamari wasn’t a great rim protector but was still miles better than Cliff.
As for Cheick vs Landen, Landen scored more ppg although Cheick had more points per minute. That is where Cheick’s advantages stop. Landen was clearly a better rebounder, a better post defender, had a better shooting percentage, fouled less, and turned the ball over less.
I am not saying Landen was great. I would have loved for Cheick to play great and take the starting spot, making Landen a solid backup. But Cheick was not good enough. He had tons of potential, but was a project. He should have stuck around a few years honestly.
If I recall correctly, for the first half of the 2016 season, we were playing musical chairs at the 5-spot. Sometimes it was Cheick, sometimes Bragg, sometimes Lucas, sometimes Mickelson. We struggled at times because of it. Then, when we settled on Landen, we started playing much better. He wasn’t great, but he was good enough, unlike the other options.
That’s my take anyways. Interested in hearing all of your thoughts.
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@MoonwalkMafia Reed hit a big shot against missery that we are all forever grateful for and was a great moment for the local kid
However, he and Brady’s shooting were the reason we lost against vcu. That game haunts me
2/21 from deep….we were the best team that year
Same with 2016 nova we were the best team that year as well but didn’t deliver in the tourney.
https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/boxscore/_/gameId/310862305
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@SlimShaddy54 Good point. A true leader will not only take control of things but will not be afraid to get in a teammate’s face (literally &/or figuratively). I definitely do not see that attribute. Easy to talk a good game and leadership but extremely difficult to actually do it.
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@Jhawk69 Wasn’t there something about some of the other players telling HCBS they wanted Landen?
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@kuballin10 It is technically possible that Cliff, or Cheick or Josh Selby could have helped us but it is by no means “obvious”. There is no evidence that they would have and it is pure speculation to say that they would have. In fact, I think they would have made our seasons worse had they played more (and there is evidence to support this).
As for our loss in the round of 32 to Stanford, I actually agree Frank probably should have played more that season. (though this is debatable, freshman Frank was not the same beast as senior Frank) But in that game he actually played more minutes than Frankamp and it is pretty clear we lost because Embiid was injured and Wiggins disappeared. I don’t think minutes distribution has much to do with it.
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@COHawk Yes!
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@Crimsonorblue22 - the MAJORITY of the players today are all about the money. You names TWO players at KU- I can name THREE without evening having to try and think about it. Do you really think for one second that players like the # 1 recruit this coming Season AJ/ Ba would seriously commit to BYU without BYU throwing limitless NIL at him he would land there ? - - Coleman Hawkins would be at K/State ? - -and even Dickinson here ? - -pssst come on surely your not going to say that – The amount of players in it for the NIL and NIL only far out weighs anything such as you quote BS they don’t give a rats ass and is ruining the College game. I would be willing to bet any amount for every ONE player you name for the " love of the school "-- there would be people who could tell you there is THREE that’s playing for the NIL & NIL only. I wasn’t pointing out this pin pointing out KU although we have our 7’2 sloth Dickinson raking in the NIL, sure I’m sure every school might have that one player that LOVES the school, but then you have the others at that same school that is there only for the money.
Your in the vast minority if you truly think this isn’t the case by far. It’s not me making this up many , many others will tell you the same, College Basketball of the earlier 2’000 is GONE those days/players never exist any longer, it’s turned into one huge meat market and the game you use to see is history
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@MoonwalkMafia Ronnie Kellogg could challenge Tyrel. – seen many Saturdays where Ronnie and Pony could light it up
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For starters, we probably don’t have as much money as people think relative to other programs.
Second, I thought some people were leaving, but here they are.
I’m intrigued to see what happens going forward this year and how things change without KJ. Then next year we are looking at a completely different core.
Obviously I don’t think this year is a title caliber team. That’s disappointing sure.
Bill is a really good recruiter, it’s going to be a fafo moment once he actually does retire.
I also like how all this is being said when KU has a ranked team, #7 on KP. I can only imagine the discourse when the next coach has us unranked/on the tournament bubble. Oh boy.
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Cliff Alexander played more minutes than Landen Lucas, for reference. 492 to 485. This was despite missing some time. He played 17.6 mpg when available.
@MoonwalkMafia said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
@approxinfinity He’s literally said that they don’t recruit for fit, they just recruit the most talented player. That is astonishing.
I believe he has said this several times over the years. I do think that needs to change.
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@MoonwalkMafia said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
Bringing up Remy, though…we should hang his picture at the top of this message board on this topic. Do we all have amnesia? Bill Self hated Remy Martin. He refused to play him. That was the case in the exhibition games. Bill Self was forced to play Remy Martin and it resulted in a championship. That wasn’t Bill Self knowing which buttons to press, he had no choice. The guy he was playing 30 mpg at point guard couldn’t score and we needed a spark. Remy carried us through that win over Providence, and there’s a case to be made that Remy was actually the MVP of the national championship.
Remy played 26.5 mpg in the non-con, then he got banged up in the last non-con game against Nevada. Bill was playing him plenty. While he continued to play for a bit after the knee thing, he wasn’t the same player after that until he healed up some more.
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I wonder seriously how much longer Coach will be here?- - I men look natives getting restless, , Questioning his Coaching ability/decisions. This whole NIL fiasco how it’s changing the game - -we have seen some of the Foundational/Seasoned Coach’s walking away because of things such as this NIL and rule changes /portal and such.
I just wonder , Coach Self how long ? --We know it’s coming , sooner then what some may believe , sooner then some want , not soon enough for some. He has mentioned he is on the back nine, not all the way yet, but on the back nine.
I had thought he qaa probably good for five years yet. Now ?— not so much , I think Bill is another HOF Coach that really is tired of the BS. Having to deal with being on the road so much/recruiting - – the NIL BS - -The Portal - - being on the road so much recruiting & evaluating takes a toll, can really drain a guy after so many years. - -Bill’s health is always going to be something to keep an eye on too.
With these Coach’s walking away big reason with the way College ball is changing - -Jay Wright - -Jim Boheim-- - - Coach K- -and a few others, they just don’t want to put up with it anymore. --Coach has said he wants to be able to have time to spend his life with the Wife/ Cindy ? Travel - -and enjoy his Grand kids-- - I just beginning to think Coach is gone more likely then not in two years- - give two more then done, thta’s what I’m thinking now.
We think we have it bad here with the way the Season is going – You ought to see what’s going on with Arkansas, they sound about like our fan base does = and there too this fricken NIL is causing major issues,- -People saying that certain players are just not good fit – players not playing to their capabilities -most of these problems are revolving around NIL.- - Some saying Coach Cal is past his prime, the new era of College Basketball has passed him up , Cal not being able to adapt
Has the new era of the game passes Coach Self by?- -is Bill past his prime ? - -being stuck some say by his not rotating the right players ?- -Two years , Two that’s my call now
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Bill Self had a phase where he recruited some questionable character guys. It really impacted this program, saddling us with the black eye of the half decade long investigation. The dude with the car accident (I’ve repressed the memory of his name and couldn’t care less to learn his name), the dude with the shoebox money (ditto my other parenthesis), Josh Jackson the most talented of all the lowlifes we brought in. The dude who raped the woman. Vick, had some issues, forgetting exactly, Jalen Wilson DUI, and the aforementioned Cliff Alexander, a victim of his own ma if I recall correctly. I might be wrong but Selfs first decade with us was his strongest and we avoided these headlines.
The original post, excellent btw @approxinfinity, and @MoonwalkMafia, was what’s happened to recruiting. Bill Self is still struggling to recover from the black eyes of the last decade.
But part of this is waiting for NCAA to work out the negativity of the NIL and portal eras. We brought in some highly ranked 5 star for next year. Normally I’d be stoked but now I’m just thinking he’s another Grady or Furphy (who had like 1 good game while he was here using us to get to the league). So while maybe the character issue has been resolved, finding loyal guys to the program who see all of the ‘trappings’ that come with being a KU player has been difficult. I laugh at guys like Grady Dick who took the money and play for a gosh awful Toronto team. Must be really fun playing in a boring league in front bored fans. He was getting paid here and would be a huge part of KU lore had he stuck around. Instead he’s an NBA afterthought. Would’ve gotten paid after this year or even his senior year a bunch.
88, 08, and 22 have forever etched themselves into my mind and make enduring these down periods a little less difficult. But I fear the aura of KU ball wearing off a little bit and always look at IU basketball, or Nebraska football as examples of programs that ruled their sport that haven’t been able to get it together since. Anyone see IU fans abandon the Assembly Hall the other day against Illinois before the first half was even done? My worst nightmare for KU right there.
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@BShark I’ll be honest with you. I question whether Remy was actually hurt. That dude was doing tomahawk jams in warmups during the period of time that he was supposedly hurt. That was also the word on the street at the time. I do think that Remy might’ve said something like ‘ya i’m not feeling 100%. Probably best to hold me out until March.’ Which would definitely check out with what Self said in the locker room after the national championship, “hey guys, he told us ‘just wait till March’.”
Regarding the Cliff vs. Lucas split. Yes, I said that. They basically played the same amount of minutes and Cliff had more points, rebounds, blocks, FTAs, FTMs. Lucas did beat Cliff in one stat, if we’re gonna nitpick. Turnovers. Cliff was the better player. I also feel vindicated by watching Lucas play 3 more years at KU and seeing how low his ceiling was.
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Cliff was absolutely the better player. Unfortunate situation with his mom that stopped him from staying another year. I think he would have been a total stud for us year two.
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@BShark Aint’ that the truth. He was good as a freshman. Imagine how much he could’ve grown in year 2 or 3.
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@wissox This is something I think about. In general Goff has made good hires but if we make a bad hire after Bill the program could end up like Indiana, UCLA or worse…
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@wissox said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
I laugh at guys like Grady Dick who took the money and play for a gosh awful Toronto team. Must be really fun playing in a boring league in front bored fans. He was getting paid here and would be a huge part of KU lore had he stuck around. Instead he’s an NBA afterthought. Would’ve gotten paid after this year or even his senior year a bunch.
Grady Dick is one thing! Not only was he phenomenal at KU (don’t get me wrong, he shrank in big moments, and it was easy for good teams to take him out of the game–imagine if he had another year to develop!) he’s been great in the league! He’s averaging 16 points. Side note: you said a gosh awful Toronto team. Personally I don’t understand anyone leaving KU for the NBA. The whole league is garbage.
But Johnny Furphy is the one I don’t understand the most. Johnny Furphy showed promise. But he wasn’t that good at KU. He had a stretch of like 8 games where played well. That’s it. KU fans were shocked when he fell to the second round. Why? Would you take a chance on him in the NBA? He’s now averaging 8 mpg, and 2 ppg. Woof.
I feel like this would be a better convo over a beer instead of a message board. But alas…
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@MoonwalkMafia Cliff had moved into the starting line up before the NCAA ended his season.
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@wissox said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
Bill Self had a phase where he recruited some questionable character guys. It really impacted this program, saddling us with the black eye of the half decade long investigation. The dude with the car accident (I’ve repressed the memory of his name and couldn’t care less to learn his name), the dude with the shoebox money (ditto my other parenthesis), Josh Jackson the most talented of all the lowlifes we brought in. The dude who raped the woman. Vick, had some issues, forgetting exactly, Jalen Wilson DUI, and the aforementioned Cliff Alexander, a victim of his own ma if I recall correctly. I might be wrong but Selfs first decade with us was his strongest and we avoided these headlines.
The original post, excellent btw @approxinfinity, and @MoonwalkMafia, was what’s happened to recruiting. Bill Self is still struggling to recover from the black eyes of the last decade.
But part of this is waiting for NCAA to work out the negativity of the NIL and portal eras. We brought in some highly ranked 5 star for next year. Normally I’d be stoked but now I’m just thinking he’s another Grady or Furphy (who had like 1 good game while he was here using us to get to the league). So while maybe the character issue has been resolved, finding loyal guys to the program who see all of the ‘trappings’ that come with being a KU player has been difficult. I laugh at guys like Grady Dick who took the money and play for a gosh awful Toronto team. Must be really fun playing in a boring league in front bored fans. He was getting paid here and would be a huge part of KU lore had he stuck around. Instead he’s an NBA afterthought. Would’ve gotten paid after this year or even his senior year a bunch.
88, 08, and 22 have forever etched themselves into my mind and make enduring these down periods a little less difficult. But I fear the aura of KU ball wearing off a little bit and always look at IU basketball, or Nebraska football as examples of programs that ruled their sport that haven’t been able to get it together since. Anyone see IU fans abandon the Assembly Hall the other day against Illinois before the first half was even done? My worst nightmare for KU right there.
Having met Jalen Wilson and seeing as he has had no other issues I take offense to his inclusion on the bad actors list. He made a childish mistake, atoned for it, and didn’t have another single issue - if I’m not mistaken. His attitude and demeanor improved drastically after that and he became a model student athlete on and off the court.
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@wissox said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
Bill Self had a phase where he recruited some questionable character guys. It really impacted this program, saddling us with the black eye of the half decade long investigation. The dude with the car accident (I’ve repressed the memory of his name and couldn’t care less to learn his name), the dude with the shoebox money (ditto my other parenthesis), Josh Jackson the most talented of all the lowlifes we brought in. The dude who raped the woman. Vick, had some issues, forgetting exactly, Jalen Wilson DUI, and the aforementioned Cliff Alexander, a victim of his own ma if I recall correctly. I might be wrong but Selfs first decade with us was his strongest and we avoided these headlines.
The original post, excellent btw @approxinfinity, and @MoonwalkMafia, was what’s happened to recruiting. Bill Self is still struggling to recover from the black eyes of the last decade.
But part of this is waiting for NCAA to work out the negativity of the NIL and portal eras. We brought in some highly ranked 5 star for next year. Normally I’d be stoked but now I’m just thinking he’s another Grady or Furphy (who had like 1 good game while he was here using us to get to the league). So while maybe the character issue has been resolved, finding loyal guys to the program who see all of the ‘trappings’ that come with being a KU player has been difficult. I laugh at guys like Grady Dick who took the money and play for a gosh awful Toronto team. Must be really fun playing in a boring league in front bored fans. He was getting paid here and would be a huge part of KU lore had he stuck around. Instead he’s an NBA afterthought. Would’ve gotten paid after this year or even his senior year a bunch.
88, 08, and 22 have forever etched themselves into my mind and make enduring these down periods a little less difficult. But I fear the aura of KU ball wearing off a little bit and always look at IU basketball, or Nebraska football as examples of programs that ruled their sport that haven’t been able to get it together since. Anyone see IU fans abandon the Assembly Hall the other day against Illinois before the first half was even done? My worst nightmare for KU right there.
Most basketball players don’t dream of peaking in college, they dream of playing in the NBA. I’m telling you this from experience with my football career. My dream was the NFL, if I had gotten to play for KU, that would’ve been cool, but ultimately wasn’t my end goal as I would’ve chosen whatever school was going to provide me the best chance to reach my goal of the NFL.
Unfortunately for me, I destroyed my ankle and missed my senior season and all of my scholarship offers pulled. I did have a couple of low level FBS offers from Sun Belt schools and Air Force before my injury.
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Agreed, think Jalen owned it, did great things here and continues to show solid work ethic in the league. But I do believe at the time it happened we were tossing around “here we go again”s on the board.
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Regarding Cheick and Cliffs playing time, I thought there were reasons we kept them out of some games to avoid forfeiture of wins or some such. Not just because Self deemed someone else a superior player.
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@Jhawk69 We can do this all day. Jamari played 222 more minutes than Cliff. That’s quite a difference. Cliff obviously played less games, so that makes sense. And yet, Cliff still scored more than Jamari (73 FGM compared to 67) and outrebounded him (148 to 130), and they tied with the team lead for blocks.
This is the age old debate, though. Short vs. long-term gain. Cliff was the better player. It seemed obvious then. It seems overwhelmingly true now. So he was out of position at times? Cool. He had the higher upside in the long-term, but was probably the better strategic move in the short-term. I remember people debating this at the time. It was infuriating.
As far as Cheik, this debate is kinda pointless because Cheik never played very much (only about 7 mpg), he was also held out of the first 10 games or so of the season. But we knew his upside. And I’ll just never buy into the Landen Lucas stuff. He wasn’t good. He committed to KU after Andrew Tarcewski committed to Arizona, who we had banked the future on. If I remember right, Lucas was like a consolation from the bargain bin when that whole thing fell through.
But who cares about picking over the details from a decade ago. KJ is the perfect representation of this debate. KJ’s great at being in position and defending. But he’s undersized and easy to score over. Flory isn’t a 4 so they’re not playing the same position. But he scores more, rebounds better, gets blocks while KJ…does none of those things.
So I pose this question to everyone with about 2 hours till game time. What do we think is gonna happen today? Do we think we see an actual change today and this team finds its stride? Or do we think guys still play with nerves and struggle to fit together. I think a game in the fieldhouse could really lift this team up if things start off well. My guess is we start Dajuan, Shak, Mayo, Griffen, and HD.
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@dylans someone correct me if i’m wrong, but isn’t it the law in Kansas that if you’re underrage, and drink one beer, then drive it’s a DUI? I was never under the impression that he was hammered and got busted. I could be wrong though.
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Allen .729 (590-212) 24 conference championships 3 final fours 3 Nattys (1 NCAA, 2 Helms)
Owens - 19 years .657 (135-44) 6 conference championships 2 final fours 0 Nattys
Brown - 5 years .754 (135-44) 1 conference championship 2 final fours 1 Natty
Williams - 15 years .805 9 conference championships 4 final fours 0 Nattys
Self - 21 years .804 (588-143) 17 conference championships 4 final fours 2 Nattys
36 years of winning at over 80% we are lucky!
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@approxinfinity said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
Regarding Cheick and Cliffs playing time, I thought there were reasons we kept them out of some games to avoid forfeiture of wins or some such. Not just because Self deemed someone else a superior player.
Cliff got shut down just when it was starting to click. He was getting ready to be a monster. Damn family messed it up for him.
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Per game Traylor averaged 21 minutes and Cliff averaved 18. Cliff averaged 2 more ppg and 1 more rpg. He was also a significantly worse defender. At that time, Traylor was the better option and it was very obvious. Cliff had more long term potential but he was not going to turn into a great player overnight. He was going to have to stick around for at least another year to be a starting caliber player, so playing him more would not have helped.
Besides, Bill DID give Cliff the starting job anf more minutes to Cliff in hopes that he would develop, only for him to get suspended.
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@dylans said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
Allen .729 (590-212) 24 conference championships 3 final fours 3 Nattys (1 NCAA, 2 Helms)
Owens - 19 years .657 (135-44) 6 conference championships 2 final fours 0 Nattys
Brown - 5 years .754 (135-44) 1 conference championship 2 final fours 1 Natty
Williams - 15 years .805 9 conference championships 4 final fours 0 Nattys
Self - 21 years .804 (588-143) 17 conference championships 4 final fours 2 Nattys
36 years of winning at over 80% we are lucky!
An almost impossibly good streak. The next hire is critical, but I’m not sure who the first realistic call should even be. Doesn’t seem like a lot of rising stars are out there.
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I think something everyone needs to understand is that
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If player A has more upside and talent than player B, it does not guarantee that player A is automatically a better basketball player in any given moment of time than player B.
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If player A (who is more talented than player B but not as good a basketball player at the current moment) is given a lot of minutes he is not guaranteed to suddenly become a better player than player B in a short period of time.
A couple examples of this are Frank Mason who played slightly fewer minutes than Naadir Tharpe as a freshman and Perry Ellis, who backed up Kevin Young as a freshman. They stuck around for a long time and eventually developed into players that were miles better than Tharpe and KY. But it took time, there is no evidence to believe this process could have been expedited by playing them a few more minutes per game as freshmen.
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@approxinfinity said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
Regarding Cheick and Cliffs playing time, I thought there were reasons we kept them out of some games to avoid forfeiture of wins or some such. Not just because Self deemed someone else a superior player.
Diallo wasn’t cleared by the NCAA to practice with KU until right before Maui that season which put his development too far behind to be made up that season for how inexperienced of a player he was. He also had a shitty handler that was prominently named in the NCAA’s investigation against KU.
Cliff’s season was ended by the allegations against his mom coming out in late February which means KU didn’t have him for the Big 12 or NCAA Tournament. Cliff started the last 6 games he played at KU and was developing into a very good post player after some early struggles and was likely coming back for his sophomore season before his mom ruined his career.
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@Jhawk69 I don’t care at this point. It was a decade ago, and up until the 2018-19 team, it was easily Self’s worst.
But I’m curious, what are your thoughts on what KU should do in KJ’s absence? Or where KU has been struggling this year regarding the lack of productivity at the 4?
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@BShark said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
@dylans said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
Allen .729 (590-212) 24 conference championships 3 final fours 3 Nattys (1 NCAA, 2 Helms)
Owens - 19 years .657 (135-44) 6 conference championships 2 final fours 0 Nattys
Brown - 5 years .754 (135-44) 1 conference championship 2 final fours 1 Natty
Williams - 15 years .805 9 conference championships 4 final fours 0 Nattys
Self - 21 years .804 (588-143) 17 conference championships 4 final fours 2 Nattys
36 years of winning at over 80% we are lucky!
An almost impossibly good streak. The next hire is critical, but I’m not sure who the first realistic call should even be. Doesn’t seem like a lot of rising stars are out there.
I’m more worried about Andy Reid’s replacement. I’d like him to coach forever, but let’s be real there aren’t many JoPas out there.
The irony… Coach K left hero worshipped and hadn’t won a chip since 2015. Self is 3 year removed, has been ranked in the top 10 since then and a lynch mob is forming.
Allen Fieldhouse may be the singular best home court in all of sports, but maybe the fans in Durham are better at realizing what they have. 
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@dylans My thought is Andy will ride it out with Mahomes but he is already 66 so who knows. That is a reset I am NOT looking forward to at all.
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@BShark I’m going to have a hard time watching football post Mahomes, but if they both retire at the same time…Yikes! It’ll be devastating.
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@MoonwalkMafia In KJs absense we should play Rylan and Keese at the 4. Maybe give Storr another chance too, see if we can get him going.
When KJ comes back he should get some playing time at both the 4 and 5, but we should continue to play small ball a lot.
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@Jhawk69 I’m starting to remember why I found this board frustrating in the first place. It’s hard to have this debate one well thought out screed at a time.
The examples you chose are fascinating. Naadir Tharpe and Kevin Young were pretty effective players on pretty talented teams during the years where Frank and Perry played behind them, though they both played a lot their freshman years. KJ Adams is not an effective player, nor is he on a team where we can afford for him to play 35 minutes, get 2 rebounds and 4 points.
Frank Mason is one of the greatest players in KU history. And I’d argue that Perry Ellis should probably be in the rafters. You could see how good these guys were their freshman years. Does anyone remember when Perry Ellis went nuclear against a phenomenal Iowa State team in the big 12 tournament as a freshman!?
But let’s not get too far away from what this debate is essentially about. Playing KJ Adams over players with more upside who make our offense more dynamic.
Bill Self said about KJ’s absence: “He’s played so well the last four games. He’s been without question our best and most consistent performer. I think that’s a blow…” This is delusional.
KJ can’t score. Other teams are daring him to shoot because it’s essentially a takeaway for them. They can sag off of him and our centers have to fend off 3 guys for a rebound. On the defensive end, he’s great at being in position, but he’s undersized guarding the 4 or 5 so he’s easy to score over. Griffen and Flory offer better alternatives to him.
I don’t know what else to say at this point. My whole argument with the Cliff, Cheik, Elijah comparisons were that this isn’t new. It’s who Self has always been. And if you’re still defending this, then I hope you like round of 32 losses.
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I wasn’t really talking about KJ. The point is that I believe Bill Self’s choices in the past are not evidence of a stubborn will to play less talented but more experienced players to the detriment of the team. He assesses who gives us the best chance to win and plays that player. He doesn’t bat 100 but he is right more than wrong and is right more than any of us on this board.
Regarding KJ, I agree that the defense sags off of him and that that causes offensive problems. But he does some good things to make up for it. Overall, he is a fine but not great player. He deserves a role on this team but probably should not play 30+ mpg at the 4.
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@Jhawk69 said in My crisis of faith in Bill:
Regarding KJ, I agree that the defense sags off of him and that that causes offensive problems. But he does some good things to make up for it. Overall, he is a fine but not great player. He deserves a role on this team but probably should not play 30+ mpg at the 4.
Now that, I would agree with!
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@dylans I hesitated to include him for reasons like you said but then others might point him out since he contributed positively here.
