Recruiting updates
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KU can’t recruit because no matter how talented and great you are, you’re playing behind Traylor and Lucas.
Why would a recruit come to KU and sit on the bench when they can go to UK and Duke start or get a lot of playing time.
Lets not forget Top talent wants to play for championships, and not the conference championships.
Think about it? Why go to KU and lose in the second round when you can go to Duke and UK and at the very least make the final 4.
Hey don’t hate me. I’m just telling you the truth. OAD’s only have one year they have no desire to ride the pine only get spot minutes, and lose in the second round of the NCAA tournament.
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No I feel it too, something isn’t right. Sometimes I wonder though if the level we’ve reached recruiting wasn’t sustainable… We’re a proven stop for the NBA so why is this class snubbing KU?
Right now the grass is just greener at UK/Duke, they are recruiting at a level we cannot compete with no matter how you slice it. What is interesting about the way recruiting is going is kids are intrigued by the new kid on the block. Texas A&M, Miss St, Cal, Auburn and others, all got monster classes this past year or this coming year by getting a new coach etc. Miss St has been a bottom dweller SEC team but just got 5 4 star players to go there. How?
There also moving towards joining with other top talent. If we had landed other top talent earlier we would have had a better chance getting others to join.
Let’s use an example. Josh Jackson is by far the best player unsigned. He’s an unreal talent, maybe one of the best players at his position in a long time according to some scouts. Now he’s got Arizona, KU & Michigan St after him. Michigan St has signed a monster class, 4 top kids. Zona & KU have 1 each… Jackson will sign with Michigan St if the trend continues for these top kids to join with others. Besides his connections to the guys signed there and growing up in Michigan, Izzo has all the momentum going for him by locking up the other talent early. Why would Jackson go anywhere else when he knows he will be surrounded by big time players- not Mitch Lightfoot- not Markannen.
I’ve been warning people here for months that this year isn’t normal, and waiting until spring is going to bite you one of these years.
It’s still clear that Bolden is the must have make or break recruit (just like Diallo was a year ago). I still think he ends up somewhere else because there’s nothing to say otherwise. The grass is greener at Duke. He can be the center of universe in Alabama. Or he can compete for 10 minutes a game against Landon Lucas next year? Maybe not true but I’m sure you will get the meaning. Even in landing Bolden its going to be like getting on the 5th best roller coaster at an amusement park. We missed the top tier talent. Bolden is an excellent player but is he the surefire day 1 post we will need next year? Jarrett Allen is an intriguing talent, has skill and can block shots but is he ready now? I don’t know those answers.
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@justanotherfan I agree. I think the fact that Self tends to bring freshmen along slowly is hurting us in this OAD era.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Norm was the lead recruiter on Wiggins. And if memory serves was also involved in the discovery of Embiid.
I believe the log jam of talent on our roster and the uncertainty of who - if anyone - will declare for the draft typically hurts us in the early signing period. This year is more of a mystery, given the holes we will have…but Colesby Bragg and Lucas will still already be entrenched so there are bodies in line and Self does reward returners…
That being said, there has been nothing wrong with our recruiting classes…even if most of them come in the spring.
BMac, Traylor, Anderson…I am missing someone.
Wiggins, Mason Black and Embiid
Graham Svi Alexander Oubre
Bragg Diallo Vick Colesby
Sure some of them didn’t pan out the way we wanted/expected but they were Still great signings on the day they happened.
Would be nice to get fall commits…but our overall classes have been fine.
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Nice post. 5 of those guys are currently logging minutes in the NBA, not including Embiid who hopefully makes it.
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Sure some of them didn’t pan out the way we wanted/expected but they were Still great signings on the day they happened.
It would be great wouldn’t it if we knew which were going to be busy or those who would over achieve and surprise us all?
I believe the recruiting process is a practice, as in you have to keep trying new things to see what will work and what won’t. Practice on getting guys. Practice because it’s not a proven science.
Injuries, mind sets, the NCAA, coaching changes(assistants), new players, all play part of how a student athlete does.
I like it when we get a OAD guy here and there but over all is like to see guys who were around for a few more years. Guys who will take pride in the name on the front of the jersey and not just worry about where the name on te back ranks. Guys who we get to know and care about and not guys who are just dust in the wind.
Don’t get me wrong guys like BMac and Wiggins are great guys and was happy to have them. But I do think OADs can disrupt the team aspect of the game. But I’d rather have them then someone else.
As to why KU can’t get early signings is beyond my imagination. Maybe the staff is giving guys their space. Maybe they are waiting to see how guys pan out their senior years? I really don’t know and don’t get it.
On the other hand I try not to get to wrapped up in recruiting. Especially now that the season has started. Rather care/worry/watch the guys who are already in the uniform.
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@SoftballDad2011 I appreciate the “glass half full” sentiment, but, gosh - I’m not sure what metrics you are using to define “fine” in characterizing our last 4 recruiting classes (or "great signings’).
First, we lucked into a couple of them. Second, more than a couple of come with academic or other baggage. Third, Black and Colesby are really just rentals - and modest contributors on less teams.
What about personal on the court production? 3 mostly lived up to rankings/hype - Wiggins, Embiid and BMac; the rest not so much, although jury still out on the newer guys Team production - meh; early exits and double digit loss seasons. “Logging” playing time in the NBA? Wow. Wiggins will be an all-star and Embiid might have been (but might never play). Black and Alexander are getting mostly mop-up minutes, Oubre not even that. Who on our current roster is an NBA player? Maybe Svi and Bragg.
Other than Wiggins and a healthy Embiid, are any of the above better than TRob, X, the Morii, Simien, Wright, Arthur, Rush, Chalmers, Collins, Collison and Hinrich??? Looking at it as objectively, recruiting the past 4 and now going on 5 years, has been underwhelming at best, compared to many prior KU classes, and certainly to the competition - esp. this year. I’m beating a dead horse, but is there anybody out there that wants to play for KU enough to commit early? We’ve always claimed we are “Big Man U.” Other than Embiid, which of the above qualifies as a quality big - of which UK seems to have 2-3 at a time? It’s not like we have a logjam of talent in the post…
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@DCHawker Is it fair to judge recruiting on the basis of later injury?
As for “baggage”, I admit there should be due diligence by the coaching staff and there may have been some problems overlooked or risks taken.
I’m not sure into whom we “lucked”.
While we have missed on many highly rated recruits, we have gotten some recruits that have turned out to be better than their ranking:
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Embiid (who shot to the top of the hype pyramid after he committed to us, or at least after Self made him priority #1)
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Mason
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Graham
As for bigs, in the last 3 years we have gotten 1 or 2 highly rated bigs each year. Each year there has been a disappointment due to eligibility or injury, else this discussion would be different.
I am not saying you are wrong, but I would scale the criticism back a notch.
If Diallo were cleared to play and we were 2-0, many conversations on this forum would be quite different, even if all our concerns were just as valid.
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I hope all of this serves a purpose… that we end up with at least ONE primo big.
And now is the time to snag the next Frank Mason… We need at least one perimeter ball handler that is a true PG. A 4-year player that will give us continuity in leadership (ha… did I really say leadership?). A guy who can learn a lot by being a fill in during Frank’s senior year.
Let’s face it… all the elite players got their big reputations by putting up offensive numbers.
Is it possible that we are losing out on recruits because recruits ask our coaches, “what offense are you running?” …and we can’t really answer that question?
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@drgnslayr said:
Is it possible that we are losing out on recruits because recruits ask our coaches, “what offense are you running?”
I believe they answer it with their heads down, “We run the high low, sometimes it produces high numbers, sometimes low scoring. But you play D you will be on the court.” As they take a deep breath and look up, “Can you rebound? I mean really really rebound in limited minutes on the court?”
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Andrew Jones is a guard who’s waiting until spring that is very good. More of a combo guard but definitely has the handles and passing ability. I really like that kid, reminds me of Vick in a lot of ways, lots of talent, good size & a lot of upside. Unfortunately we’ve gotten involved rather late but maybe will get him on campus in the spring?
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I think we will be fine as frog hair next year, and here is why: DG- PG/ Frank - SG/Svi=Greene-SF / Bragg-PF / and our 5. We need one good big …
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@ParisHawk I don’t mean to be harsh - just trying to be realistic/objective about recruiting the past 4 years or so.
No, I’m not judging based on later injury - I’m giving full props to Embiid as recruit. Injury may have resulted in a different outcome against Stanford, but we still had double digit losses.
Perhaps “luck” isn’t quite the right word, but Mason and Graham were decommits from other schools. Ended up with Wigs and Embiid very late in the process - leaving the impression, perhaps unfairly, that we weren’t necessarily first choice.
To be clear, I really like both Frank and Devonte - they’ve played above their rankings and have been and will be solid contributors. BUT - they were fallbacks after we lost out on other guards, and, let’s face it, neither is likely to be an NBA talent.
As for highly rated bigs, you are correct that four of them were ranked in the top 20 - the problem is that if just one doesn’t really pan out for whatever reason, you see the results pretty quickly. Other schools seem to have gotten a leg up on us in getting even higher rated and multiple bigs.
Again, not trying to be overly harsh, but comparing to our own past history and what others have been able to do - esp. this year so far - I just think we’ve fallen short the past few years. The more important question is why?
You are right, that if Diallo was playing and if we happen to land Bolden, Allen and Jackson, then there wouldn’t be as much angst…
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@SoftballDad2011 Actually, our classes haven’t been fine. KU’s W-L record and tournament performances over the past 2 years should be proof enough that something is wrong. If you’re happy with 10 loss seasons and struggling to get past the 1st weekend of the tournament, then you and I have very different levels of expectations of success.
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You’re probably right.
Playing the #1 strength of schedule two years running with young teams and being at much less than full strength during both early exits probably didn’t have anything to do with those losses.
Should we have won more of those games even without all of our players?..ABSOLUTELY!
Did any of those losses come about because of poor recruiting classes…NO!
Great recruits both years…just didn’t stay healthy/stay eligible/stick around long enough for us to truly prosper from them.
“Well we had the # 1 and #3 selections in the NBA draft and brought in a pretty good senior transfer, along with some kids named, Selden, Mason and Greene…but all in all it just wasn’t a very good recruiting class”???
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There is a difference in judging a recruiting class in hindsight versus judging a recruiting class as it is being put together and choices are being made as to whether I want this guy or that guy.
Pretty harsh to say it is a poor recruiting class after the fact because a recruit’s parents took out a loan or because an injury for the 7 footer knocked him out of the tournament and he was better than you thought so he left school earlier than expected.
But most of were pretty excited when we landed a Diallo, Wiggins or an Alexander.
Just as we would have been if we had landed one of this year’s big names.
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Only Duke (15-31) and UK (155-35) have a better record than KU (144-39) in the previous 5 years, teams like Michigan State (131-53) and North Carolina (136-47) lag behind. If you go 10 years, KU is at the top. No doubt that the OAD phenomenon has not helped KU and has done wonders for UK.
When you consider that KU"s SOS has consistently been in the top 3 and that the BIG 12 has been rated the top conference for the last 3 years, I would say KU is doing rather well, particularly when you compare our recruiting classes against the UK and Duke monster classes. Yes, there have been early exist in the Tournament but then UConn, a fairly average team with nowhere near the record of the others, has won it twice.
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@SoftballDad2011 College basketball is a results driven business and KU’s results are trending in the wrong direction. I don’t care about winning the recruiting class rankings, I care about winning in March and April and adding banners to the north end of Allen Fieldhouse.
@JayHawkFanToo You wanna know something else about KU’s past 10 years. KU has lost more games in the past 4 years than the previous 6 combined. KU has lost more Big 12 games in the past 3 years than the previous 7. If you want to keep trending that direction, then that’s your business. Personally, I’d rather KU not trend backwards like they’re currently doing.
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@drgnslayr I truly believe this is where we did start losing our edge, our advantage. Danny from everything I heard was really good developing and working with the bigs, and I think your spot on right there bud. ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@DoubleDD we are not recruiting now to be playing for Traylor & Lucas- - - -they will be gone or at least Traylor will be for sure, We are recruiting 2016 recruits next year so bye bye Traylor
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Ok. Then to clarify, the recent TEAMS haven’t met your expectation?.
Because you took exception to my post that stated our recent RECRUITING CLASSES have been solid.
We have had a fair number of highly touted recruits in recent years.
Unfortunately, due to some bad luck and more predominately, because the OAD mindset doesn’t work well in our system, the teams that had those recruits on it did not meet your expectations.
The OAD movement has not been good to us.
unfortunately it will be difficult to wean ourself off the OAD train without creating air pockets in the pipeline that will lead to average seasons (average for most teams…but horrible seasons for us …like only 18 or 20 win season horrible).
To bleed out those air pockets we will have to go back to having a core group of 50-100 ranked kids that are augmented with the occasional 20-40 ranked guys and suffer through some rough seasons until those freshman and sophomores become juniors and start to get it…and until the pipeline provides a recurring annual supply of battle tested juniors who have paid their dues during the past two seasons.
Self hates to lose at all so I don’t think he has been able to go go cold turkey and entirely quit the OAD approach. So he gets who can and comes up short of meeting expectations…so says many of us.
To me it is funny. Not funny ha ha, but funny in a sad, painful way
But if you go way back before Self started landing OADs our success wasn’t all that different than it is now… And fans were bashing him because we weren’t keeping up with the Joneses by landing the Tyreke Evans of the world.
So in comes Xavier, Selby BMac, Wiggs…And to this day we still fret everytime Kentucky and Duke repeatedly load up with presumed OADs that we missed on like Jabari Parker, Okafor, Julius Randle,
now when we do land a Wiggins or an Alexander we complain because they didn’t take us to the promised land and because they leave too early.
But now when we sign a decent middle of the road 3-4 star prospect who will likely be a four year player our message boards light up people questioning why on earth we would sign a Lightfoot or a Mason or a Graham. And how are we supposed to compete with Duke, Kentucky, Memohis with guys like that.
Comical really.
The winningest program in America between 2000-2009 and third or fourth winningest if you stretch it from 2000-2015. 11 straight conference titles, 26 straight invites to the big dance. And on and on.
But it’s been three seasons since we made a final four and seven seasons since we won a title.
And now that the rest of the Big 12 has elevated their game to keep up with us - plus now that we play every team on the road every season- we’re complaining that Self’ s recent road record is sub .600…too bad we don’t get to pound teams like the lower tier of the SEC, ACC or Pac 10 and pad those records, huh?
Pretty rough stretch, huh?
This must be what it feels like at Mizzou, or Iowa State or UCLA or Indiana or any other team that’s never done it or that has and since fallen off the map and is now working their way back…not! Our rough stretch is beater than 99% of DI team’s glory days!
I’ll still cheer for KU…even if all the chicken little prognosticators on here are right and the sky is indeed falling.
I’ve been a die-hard Royals fan since my Dad and I started listening to games on the radio in 1976 when I was five years old.
Now that 29 years was a rough stretch…but the last two years made it entirely worth it.
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@SoftballDad2011 I’m w/you!
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You know… Self’s job is political. There is no way he can keep everyone happy… perhaps even if we take home another National Championship.
We all want that big trophy in April… expectations are what rule the day. If fans don’t consider it a “good year” if we don’t win it all, then they are in for unhappy times almost every year. Even the Kentuckys and Dukes aren’t winning it every year.
But this recruiting thing is a puzzle. After '08 I think it raised our fans expectations… and we thought we would climb to the top of the recruiting world. Calipari moving to Kentucky changed all that. Meanwhile, Duke seemed to constantly increase their recruiting classes. Now, we definitely feel like we are behind these schools (and others).
@Texas-Hawk-10 has a legitimate question about Self and Einstein’s definition of insanity. In fact… one could argue that we aren’t even getting the same result year-after-year. So… if a person is insane for doing the same things over and over but expecting different results (I’m guessing wanting good results) and the results are on the decline… what does that mean for this definition of insanity?
I mentioned in another post that I thought we have an identity issue. I think all of us know several reasons why we aren’t landing the top tier talent right now. So… why don’t we adjust our strategies and become a place welcome for OADs?
OR…
We decline the “revolving door” strategy and go for guys a step or two down. But then… why do that without a solid plan for developing players? Danny Manning is gone. Hudy is great for strength and conditioning… but who is developing these guys’ game? After Manning left, what development are we selling to recruits? Why go to Kansas? I get that we are #2 (behind Kentucky) in current players in the league. But that doesn’t seem to be getting guys lining up to sign with Kansas.
We have way too much to offer top recruits to not be landing top recruits. I’m pretty sure there is something GLARINGLY wrong with how we are recruiting, but the coaches don’t see it because they can’t see the trees while standing in the woods.
I’m involved in sales/marketing. Have been for a long time. There are different strategies available… like the “shotgun approach” where you blast away very broadly and see what comes your way. And then there is the “rifle approach” where you limit your efforts to focus on less of a crowd, but hopes that the crowd is going to give great rewards. It seems like we are trying to run both approaches at the same time. We are definitely shotgunning it… willing to sign uber elite players and guys not even ranked. Our assistants are on the recruiting trail doing both. We seem to be on a rifle approach with some OADs. Perhaps we are even dropping decent ranked guys while we go after top elites. It seems like a big hodgepodge effort. When there is this disorganization in your strategy it comes off to those you are trying to sell as desperation. I know for a fact that right now we are seen as desperate by many. And maybe we are. That creates quite a mountain to climb.
I think we have counted on getting top talent late in the game for way too long. Self has been the master at recruiting late. Getting guys that are transferring or wanting out of the LOIs, etc. In some ways, that success has masked negative issues we have with recruiting. And it all “comes to roost” when we have a year or two where we don’t pull off the last second recruiting miracle. We all know how important it is to get out early in recruiting… build momentum by getting one or more elite players early… it makes it easier to sign more on because the momentum is there. Our momentum right now is Lightfoot. How many great players is that signing going to help us with? (no offense to Lightfoot. I have high hopes for him.)
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Great points and well articulated.
I guess I was trying to make three points in my post.
1). Our recruiting has been solid. We have gotten decent numbers of highly touted kids.
2). Our results have been consistently outstanding, relative to any other program in the country since the time Larry Brown left.
3). That in my belief if we continue allowing emotion and unrealistic expectations to drive our opinion of whether we are a good program that not only are we in for disappointment, but the witch hunt mentality that has been building for a few years and is now reaching a crescendo is going to be what creates it … a self fulfilling prophecy of sorts.
We’ve been good for a long time and there have been times when Self has held it together with duct tape and baling wire and still kept us in the upper tier…times that would have seen other top programs spiral out of the elite for a bit until they could regroup and re-emerge.
Duke (to the least extent aside from us), Kentucky, Indiana, Texas, Arizona, North Carolina, UNLV, Florida, UConn…they have all been there. Some of them more than once since the last time we had it bad.
The remarkable thing is that we had no correction following a coaching change. And that Self has reinvented our team’s identity a couple of time without falling off the top tier.
We’ve had it cobsusistently good for longer than any other team in the country.
We’ve had it good for so long that we have an entire generation of KU fans that have never seen it bad…or even average for that matter.
It can and will get worse than a couple early exits since our last final four.
And let me ask this…who on this message board has any faith whatsoever that Sheahon Zenger is capable of hiring a coach capable of maintaining the uninterrupted success we have experienced (and that still hasn’t been good enough for many of you)?
So let’s be unrealistic in our expectations, run off the most consistently successful coach in the game since John Wooden and see where it takes us.
Just saying it can get worse a lot easier than it can get better.
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A big thing here is and if your want to admit it or not is cool with me, but we as KU fans have become very, very spoiled, we have won so much, there are some who just can’t except losing a game- - - and an individual SHOULDN’T settle, be satisfied with losing a game- - -but it happens, this is where we as Ku fans have gotten spoiled we have won so much that when we lose we think the sky is falling. I do get upset cuss rant rave the ol ladies runs for the hills when we are losing a game and I’m watching she says she knows when to get out lol. Coach Self STILL hasn’t lost 10 games at Allen since he has been here. Do you realize how hard that is to do, no matter who the competition is? Even if the competition was Saint Mary’s sister of the blind playing us 10 games? 10 games? in what going on his 13th year? how many other coaches in America can say that? Yet that’s not good enough, we always want more, we think he should WIN THEM ALL. never satisified, you DO REALIZE there is only 1 winner at the end of the season, the National Champ, everyone ends their season with a loss only one ends with a win. the national champ. Do you realize how many fans from other schools would die just to make it to the NCAA tourney as many times as we have in a row, or even half of that?- - - - ?Not KU fans, we are of the belief we need to make it every year and no matter the competition should win it or at least be in the final four. we lead the nation with consectitive trips to the NCAA’S not good enough. Is there ever going to be a coach good enough for us here? Hell ya let’s fire Coach Self that will make it better. Does anyone ever realize that just the name of Kansas on the front of the uniform makes us their game of the year? Every where we go, we play some of these schools that are lucky if they get their fieldhouse even 1/2 full every other game, but yet when they play us most the times its SOLD OUT, that is a lot of these schools NCAA tourney game of the year, they may not win another game all year but if they could pull the upset- - -play us close then that makes their year. Do we realize the pressure that puts on our players to preform that much better, the extra pressure it puts on the coach? But hey lets fire self like some want on here, then just like people have said what top 50 recruit wants to come here because of the style Coach Self runs, we are going to be in the same position, we are going to gewt to a point where what really good coach would want to coach here because of the expectations? the fans? never good enough. WE ARE SPOILED- - -WAY TOO SPOILED. again you can only have 1 National Champion, everyone else ends the year as a loser. Hell ya love to be National Champion every year, that just ain’t happening, what’s the pct of that? not just from us, but any school- - -name me any schools that repeat year after year after year these era? not happening. Don’t give me the crap about well we sure the hell don’t wanna keep making early exits from the NCAA’S, I’ll say that who the hell does? Seriously though what difference does that make? you lose early , the 2nd round OR you lose in the sweet 16, the semi’s what the hell ever. bottom line is- - -you STILL LOST, you are not the National Champ. A loss is a loss, is a loss, is a loss period. everyone ends the season losing whether i’s the 1st round 2nd round sweet 16, great 8 what the hell ever. YOU LOST let’s fire the coach, cause he is running the wrong offense, must be ALOT of coaches running their wrong offenses. You can be one of the better teams in the nation all season, the NCAA’S is a crap shoot, a lot depends on the outcome, Injuries, who’s on a roll at the time of the tourney, your team’s recent play, it only takes 1 bad game, it’s not the best of 7 it’s ONE game. you play poorly , then your out. Ya I would love to get deeper in the tourney but it’s not as some want to believe because we have the wrong offense or not nearly as much of the problem as some want to make it out to be. I’m proud to be a Jayhawk fan, I’m proud to have Coach Self, I’m proud of our 11 straight conference championships, I’m proud of our nations leading consectutive NCAA appearances, I bleed crimson and blue but I’M SPOILED TO SPOILED, we as KU fans are spoiled and there are some here that are so dillusional they feel w should never lose, and always make it to the championship and that I say good luck. No matter how good the talent here, Kentucky, Duke, North Carolina, Louisville, where eer it ain’t happening. ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY. ok now bring it I’m a grown man I can take all the slinging you want just my view
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@DoubleDD I don’t hate you for telling the truth.
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We have “only” won 3 NCAA titles since our first NCAA appearance in 1940…but having won our most recent in 2008 just doesn’t cut it.
We have “only” been to 14 Final Fours since 1940…but have been to two since 2008…just doesn’t cut it!
Self is “only” 27-11 (70.1%) as a KU coach in the NCAA tournament…and that includes two 0-1 and three 1-1 performances…but he’s all washed up…hasn’t been to a final four in the past three seasons!
@jayballer54 nailed it…SPOILED!
And oh by the way the Bucknell & Bradley debacles that was the last “apocalypse” that we endured were sandwiched by Elite 8 runs…and we won the title two seasons after the Bradley loss.
Take a deep breathe, show some patience as we wade through these devastatingmy disappointing 26-28 win seasons ., show your head coach the respect he has undoubtedly earned…and enjoy the ride.
