What Is Wrong With...
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This should be a good thread…
Start your post with "What is wrong with ---- -----? (fill in the blanks)
This is your opportunity to not only point fingers directly at people, strategies, etc.
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What is wrong with Jamari Traylor?
Are we really going to point fingers directly at Jamari?
I believe he was a 3-star recruit, and was actually over-rated, probably because of his physical presence.
Jamari has a limited skill set. And we have discussed his limitations in basketball IQ.
He didn’t particularly have a bad game last night. He had a typical Jamari game.
Jamari’s strengths:
Speed
Energy
Handles
Physicality
Jamari’s weaknesses:
Basketball IQ
Shooting Ability
Rebounding
Low Post Scoring
I’m not going to claim there aren’t more things to be added to this list.
But when we consider WHO Jamari is… can we expect to get anything more out of him? Sure, over time he can develop more (to some degree)… but he has been around for a long time and we haven’t seen much more improvements.
His biggest POSITIVE with us is his ability to drive the ball in the lane area. He is quicker than probably all big men he will face this year. When he drives the ball in the paint area other teams are forced to collapse, and then someone is open. Jamari may not be a great passer, but I wouldn’t say he is incapable in that skill. There are a lot of opportunities for us when he dribbles the ball in the paint.
Sometimes he can be a POSITIVE with energy. Sometimes his energy earns us a possession, or something else positive. But we can’t count on his energy always being there or if he can harness that energy into something positive.
I’m not going to drop a bunch of blame on Jamari… that would be like blaming Morningstar, a walk-on. There is plenty of blame to go around, from coaches down to players.
I’m more in line with many others that think he receives too many minutes. That isn’t Jamari’s fault…
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This is not a direct reply, but along the same lines I wish someone would ask Coach Self:
"What do you care about?"
Winning the game at hand?
Preparing for Conference?
Preparing for March?
Getting a good seed?
Helping a former homeless kid?
What are your priorities?
Self can’t be that stupid or that rigid, can he? Maybe choices we can’t fathom come from motives that are not clear to us.
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What is wrong with Landen Lucas?
I thought Landen looked horrible last night. He missed several bunnies to the point that it looked like it took extra effort to miss them.
He needs to finish with authority at the rim. Rarely is that the spot to do anything but flush the ball. Not sure how anyone can get this far in basketball and not know that.
But I think I found part of his problem last night.
Look… if we are going to continue playing BAD BALL (meaning… almost intentionally blow it on offense to force a grind out game), then Landen is the wrong guy for the job.
Landen is our most skilled player at fundamentals in the low post. He may not always execute things well, but he knows what to do. He is the only one that knows how to seal for a rebound (for example). He actually does have a few back-to-the-basket moves.
Problem is… if we get to the point where we aren’t going to run real offense, Landen needs to sit. He is a guy completely built on fundamentals, including executing offense through actually running some kind of set offense. The second we get to where we stop running offense, he becomes totally lost.
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What is wrong with DUNKING THE BALL??
Missing layups, air balling a well it was less than foot and went two foot over the rim, at least you the glass, that square is there for a reason. All the misses and airballs can be a thing of the past if they just dunked the ball.
Go back to the Stanford exit, we got beat inside by their D, because we settled for layup and not dunks.
Perry Ellis, might not have a dunk yet this year.
We have bigs who are tall, have length, and yet are afraid to put their hands on the rim for some reason.
What is wrong with dunking the ball?
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Man, great posts by Paris and drgn…but I’m not looking at Jamari Traylor as the GOAT, nor as any sort of savior by any means. Heck, even Ellis couldn’t be the savior. Traylor is only a role player.
Great point by drgn about Traylor’s dribble drive point-fwd concept, especially on display in the 2nd exhibition game, as was his “newly developed” pull-up midrange J.
In a nutshell, this loss is not on Jamari. It is on Self for poor lineup combinations. And to give Self some credit, maybe he used a loss to MichSt as teaching material for the whole damn season? Maybe he let Lucas flounder to justify benching him later, thus “orchestrating” an opening for Hunter and Bragg???
We cannot call Self a shrewd judge of talent without thinking he is up to something by playing Lucas, when no other KU coach would? He came as insurance, hasn’t developed, and that experiment is done.
Not even Danny could have changed Lucas. Lucas just doesn’t have the toolkit.
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@drgnslayr said:
The second we get to where we stop running offense, he becomes totally lost.
What an incredible thing to have to say! Deliberately play basketball in such a way that fundamentals become a handicap!
And people say Self doesn’t play zone. Yes he does: Twilight Zone!
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@ralster said:
Lucas just doesn’t have the toolkit
I said this last week or somewhere in the past, but he looks like he is being forced to play the game of basketball and doesn’t want to be there. Like he’s going through the motions.
Heck I thought Dr. TJ Pugh had stone hands (I have played with him and even told him that) but Lucas might have the worst set of hands that have ever been at KU.
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@JRyman Good call JR - "Hands of Stone’ was once a tremendous boxer’s nickname… but Roberto Duran never played at KU…
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@drgnslayr Well OK, here goes nothing…
What is wrong with Bill Self?
I have my own opinions & views but go ahead &
Hammer away…
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@globaljaybird I’m going with dementia, early onset of course.
Wait I just saw a mule walk by my window, he was muttering how stubborn Bill Self was.
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@globaljaybird
I almost posted something on Self… but wanted to think about it some more and hope others jump in first.
I would like to see some other things happen… but I’m still not ready to grab a pitchfork!
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I actually saw a red fox in my yard a couple of days ago.
Maybe it was a spy for Izzo?!
Seriously…
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@drgnslayr Or was it Izzo himself? He has some red in his hair.
I mean how sly would that be?
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@globaljaybird I think it is appropriate to bring Self up for discussion. And now is the time. Are we too quick on the gun? No, because this same team gave us 2 x 2nd round exits, to midmajors, no less. Albeit we were dinged up last season with Greene and Ellis, and no Cliff. Selden’s knee.
So, not wanting to see these same kids give us a 3rd ingnominous exit, we are hoping Self makes some changes. See, he has NO excuse with a loaded roster, by his own quote “11 guys that can play”. Let’s simplify his statement for him and say “10” (-Lucas).
KU plays NO ranked team til Baylor on our BigXII opener, so lets get the dang lineup right!
Actually, as I posted on another thread, maybe Self orchestrated the MSU collapse (let them “labor” as jaybate used to say), so that he can burst their gold-medal bubble & have teaching-points all the way to the KY game. And maybe he let Lucas flounder to prove to Lucas that he is “going a different direction, and Landon, you have had your chance now already”.
My operating assumption here is: Self is too good of a talent recruiter, to then be so bad at using said talent…. That MichSt loss, and the lineups and offensive strategy just made NO sense. I hope Self was simply orchestrating several things at once. That last 5-7 min was almost the worst Ive seen KU look since the Michigan collapse. Self is making himself and KU look bad.
(See avatar). Ive been a big supporter of Self, and I hope he figures this team’s pieces out correctly in time for us to beat KY. That’s the next litmus test.
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@drgnslayr Me either but he’s PD bull headed…I have a dog that I just love the stuffings out of but he’s a Bulldog/Boxer mix, yet there times when even GOOD damn food can’t make him budge-I’ve never even seen a dog that would nut up on a chew of steak, let alone lived with one…Ya think if maybe Cin cut him off for awhile his attitude might get adjusted a little ???
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@ralster Good points. I listened to Self & Davis prior to the game & he mentioned early season “BIG” games vs top opponents were basically only good for exposing your weaknesses or seeding for borderline teams come the dance. So with that in mind I posted on the game chat that Bill was likely allowing DG to run the show last night to see what he has, & FM would take over at crunch time. Hell, he (FM) looked almost as unsure of himself as Wayne did, running into trees time & again. MSU really wasn’t that tall either but when you’re 5’ 9" a double team with your eyes down will kill a possession every time. But not for a minute do think Self took a loss deliberately & like I’ve repeatedly stated, they absolutely looked lost under 5 minutes. I couldn’t believe my eyes after the way they took it to their opponents in the WUG, but damned if we ain’t 1-1 now, for whatever reasons that are a complete mystery to most of us.
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@globaljaybird
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@Crimsonorblue22 What ??
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@globaljaybird cin cut him off
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@Crimsonorblue22 Oops !
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Gee, what’s the University of Kentucky Men’s Basketball going to do to us THIS year?
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That is what I was wondering when our second half started and I just experienced Kentucky close out Duke and they looked so much better than us.
How can Calipari take a bunch of freshmen for a few weeks and have them playing better than our juniors and seniors who played and practiced all summer long?
That is the magic question…
Perhaps you are right… and perhaps Self is pulling one from the “Izzo Book Of Hard Knocks”… Izzo seems to like to play a tough preseason and lose a bunch of games to toughen up his players for March.
I do think this loss will make us better.
Gosh… maybe we recruit the wrong kind of players? Why do we have to do so much just to get these guys excited to play basketball?
Or… is their excitement being “coached” out of them? Do they arrive excited and leave Kansas tired?
I will be keeping a careful watch on Carlton. He seems to have a great attitude. Will he still have that big smile and perk in his step come February? Guess we will find out.
One thing is for sure… and I think this is a part of the angst in here… I sure feel puzzled by last night’s performance. I’m guessing it caught everyone off guard. We led the entire game and I kept thinking at any minute we would step on the gas and put a large buffer in the score. When we hit the 10 minute mark left in the second half I started to see the potential for a loss. You never want to keep an Izzo team around close enough to strike.
You know… that last 10 minutes was the perfect opportunity to try some different things on defense to try to stunt Valentine’s performance. We don’t get that many opportunities to play against a guy that can take on a game and carry his team over the finish line. Why didn’t we try a box and one? I can think of several things we could have tried… all of changes are opportunities to grow and to teach.
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SELF?
A few days or weeks or months ago, someone posted about who our most important player would be (or something to that effect). I chose Bill Self.
Nobody can blame a blown 13 point second half lead on anyone other than the coach.
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@drgnslayr So much for fundamentals. In his post game interview Self indicated that Lucas was playing because he is the best person we have for getting position and riding his man from under the basket. That is unfortunately that is true. On the other hand, the purpose of doing that is to put the damned ball in the hoop. I honestly cannot remember him making one shot either this year or last when there is a defender on the same side of the hoop. He did make a shot last night when he was open with no one around.
We seem to always have a problem with bunnies. Perry has his own problems as does Jamari, but at least they can make a guarded 2 foot shot every now and then. Lucas on the other hand is just a waste of an entry pass.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Shoulda said withhold favors…Sorry so salty…
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@drgnslayr We ran a triangle and 2 for 1 possession. Just one though. Went right back to man to man after it. If I remember right, we got a miss on a tough shot but couldn’t rebound it and ended up giving up a 3.
But to get to your initial post instructions, What is wrong with thinking positive?
I saw another thread on this board talking about giving up on KU bball. That’s terrible and if this loss ruined any fan’s week than maybe he or she should stop watching. It’s basketball. A game. And unless you are in the gym with the coaches and players, or have a gambling problem, it is for entertainment. Analysis and criticism are fine. They make everyone think and they make everyone better. So let’s stop whining and start looking forward to the next game.
Anyone a little nervous that Self will “send them out flat” or let them “labor” against Chamanade? Or even worse that we will waste another 56% three point performance against them?
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“What is wrong with thinking positive?”
I’m still looking forward to a great season from this team! I don’t know about a Final Four appearance, but that isn’t the only thing I care about. And if it was, then most years I would hate basketball because we don’t get there. I’m not that way.
What I fear is complacency on this team. What does it take to push these guys into playing like a Final Four team? My answer is for them to carry a chip, and I don’t see how they do that without a big personal tragedy or something taking them out of their comfort zone (like fans showing some negativity).
I wish it would work to just all say everything is going to be alright, but I’ve never experienced that as a way to motivate young men.
I’m for anything that works.
I’m a little ticked at situations like Lucas missing bunnies… but players like Landen and Jamari were never recruited to be anything more than role players… support cast.
I do think our season is going to follow the performance of Wayne. He is probably the only guy given full reign of doing anything he wants on offense. The 3 spot is the position most free to roam and expose weaknesses in the defense. In our system, it is truly the one position requiring a healthy dose of opportunism.
So when Wayne has a bad night, more times than none our team will have a bad night.
I don’t think that will change if we ever get Cheick. I think he just gives us a tiny bit of extra margin for victory and not enough to make us unbeatable to almost any team on the right night (or wrong night depending on perspective).
It is ridiculous for anyone to throw this team or coach totally under the bus and give up on basketball. But I don’t see that happening. That is merely fans venting their frustrations and they need to do that. It is a healthy thing to “let it go” and not hold the angst inside. Unfortunately… we have been in this position before, and even worse! The only thing that saved us last year in March was the fact that after we were tattooed by WSU our season was over. Fans were in a state of total rage… and it was good we took a break before WUG.
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You have basically hit every point on why we as fans and not only this board, have come to the realization that this loss stings badly because it opened up every can of worms about Self’s coaching, his coaching style, his coaching execution, his decision making or lack their of…
This game was a reminder, a funneled version of how this team has failed in these type games for the past few years and its getting old. From the product on the court to recruiting there is no forward momentum right now and there hasn’t been any for months.
The Summer games were great but as others have pointed out they have already been rendered useless by the outcome of Tuesday’s game. If Korea was so beneficial, we would have beaten the 1-man team of Michigan St. The embarrassments are getting old, the coaching execution is getting old. I don’t think any fan truly wants Self gone, but he’s definitely starting to get knocked off king of the mountain status he’s been on for years.
Of course next week we might see a better team, a better coached team. We play UNLV or UCLA, either will provide a challenge UCLA more than UNLV. Indiana or Vanderbilt is no walk over either potentially in the finals. Indiana is a top 15 team potentially, Vanderbilt is a much improved team from a year ago. We will find out real quick if we can turn around this loss into a positive. We took last years UK’s debacle into a tourney win in Florida.
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My question mark concerning Self’s coaching is all based on whether or not he can develop a chip for himself.
What do you think?
I think a huge part of what won us a NC in '08 (his only NC) was HIS hunger to do so. We were treading water in that championship game… and it looked like we were beat. I know the players stepped up… but also… didn’t Self step up? We tried several things to turn the tide, and what helped was putting BRush at the top of the key. Something I wouldn’t expect us to even try today!
My thought… If this March, we get back to that exact same situation, this time we DON’T make the big comeback because Self just doesn’t have a chip on his shoulders to pull out all the stops. He’ll play to NOT LOSE instead of play TO WIN.
Where I think we failed in this last game is Self had the perfect opportunity to PROVE TO HIS TROOPS how important it is for him to win. He didn’t prove that. But look a few feet over and Izzo… he was begging, pleading… screaming… making faces… being totally animated and full of energy towards his players. Izzo is not only driven… he carries a chip always. That is why we should all expect MSU to be in many Final Fours in the coming years, regardless who they recruit.
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Maybe this loss will be what brings that chip out? This team was humbled, they should have won they know that. I just wonder how many more disappointments its going to take to reverse this trend.
Its a real question to ask whether Self has the right players he needs for his style or not. We lack that killer instinct again so far, we lack that true leader. As evidence of our offense execution for the game and down the stretch it was all about individuals and not the “team aspect” that Self preaches.
Of course losing always makes us jump down the throats of the guilty. We need to rant because from that we can heal, return to normal, and get ready for the next battle. Our coach was beaten, our players didn’t execute, certain individuals really under-performed, & our veteran players who should get it, clearly still aren’t getting it.
I’m really looking forward to seeing how we rebound in Maui. Another situation where we should win, but will we? That will be the test of Self and the teams mental capacity at this point. The pressure is on, we don’t turn this around its going to get real interesting quick.
I want to believe that this team has that chip, maybe its something it will gain over the course of the year. We will need to see those statement type performances to know for sure whether they can or not.
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@JRyman Did KU as a team have a dunk in the entire MSU game? It seemed like Kentucky dunked the ball 15 times. I honestly don’t recall us having 1 dunk. I am sure I am wrong but it is not coming to mind.
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@BeddieKU23 said:
Its a real question to ask whether Self has the right players he needs for his style or not
I don’t think he does. Not in mindset anyway. No one is mentally tough on the court,(Traylor is mentally tough in life itself).
I don’t think this loss will bring a chip out, if Perry getting smacked in the nose against his hometown college team last year didn’t give him a chip, what will?
This team doesn’t have a killer on it, no one ever goes for the jugular, and the starts at Self. Go back to the '08 UNC game. KU got out early and got a huge lead, then Self went soft and took his foot off the throats and they got within 12 I think. What was good for KU is they had a big enough lead in that game that UNC had to expel all its energy just to get that close and ran out of gas.
TRob was killer for KU, just ask Mizzlose, he carried them not only in that game, but in the tournament too. Releford had leadership qualities about him too and had killer like instincts.
Show me one guy who has that on this years squad? Lucas is soft, Perry is soft, Hunter is well soft, Jamari is soft, Devonte is soft, Svi, Greene,Selden all soft. Frank has a little in him, but what he does have gets in the way of making good judgement plays. No one at the back of the bench has it either.
So to go back to your question does this team have the players to work in Self’s system, no, no it doesn’t.
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I view complacency as the root evil for many things in life.
Basketball is a subset of life in general.
Complacency and comfort are “bed fellows.” It takes some kind of discomfort to keep people on edge… doing whatever has to be done to find comfort. In college basketball, comfort comes with winning… especially winning it all (where expectations are with elite programs).
How many more bad March performances is it going to take to get this coaching staff (and players) uncomfortable? I know we hear chatter about being uncomfortable… but it is all about levels. You want to see these guys perform? Put a gun to their heads and tell them they are dead if they lose. That won’t guarantee a win… but it will probably guarantee we see EVERY ATTEMPT POSSIBLE to win! Guys would be emotional during play.
That scenario isn’t a scenario we will see… but it creates an example about differing levels of discomfort.
The Royals were in a state of total discomfort after ending their season 90-feet away from potentially the big prize. If you listen to Yost and others… time went by and they were still “bothered” by that loss. The discomfort never went away. You could see it finally melt away after the 12-inning in Game 5!
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Maybe… just maybe… Cheick!
He has the background to maybe be a real killer.
His stat line is impressive because of his hustle, not his skill set. Well… actually his hustle is a big part of his skill set because few hustle like he does.
I think he might be a difference maker.
But he has to be freed first. And then others on the team have to jump on and ride his desire. They have to adopt his psyche.
We just got a big nasty taste of what can happen from just having ONE guy step up!
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@drgnslayr said:
I view complacency as the root evil for many things in life.
That’s like when you walk into a new job as management and you see things are wrong, and you ask why it’s done that way, and someone gives you the proverbial answer of,
“well its how we’ve always done it” I hear that and I bang my head against the wall, (wait maybe thats why I have head issues? lol)
But yes complacency and doing the same thing over and over and over again is on the verge of insanity, especially if you never get different results. Yes Self and KU win with his system, 82% of the time, but those big games,those collapses, he sticks with the same thing, over and over and over again, because that’s what he’s always done.
Wonder if Coach ever feels this way watching game tape?
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Well stated!
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Whats wrong with the whole enchilada? This program is like an aging sports car that WAS the fastest most expensive most awesome car on the road. It can still hang around in a race but it needs some work to get it back to its glory days! I mean what is happening here? We cant win against top programs and our tournament record as of late is embarrassing compared to other top programs. Recruiting has gone in the toilette! Coach Self needs to rejuvenate this program before it becomes irrelevant. Who is to blame for the lack of development on the front court? Who is to blame for recruiting? Who is to blame for the Whole Enchilada? The answer is Coach Self is ultimately responsible for his teams development, recruiting, success, and who gets minutes. The whole dang program is headed for a nose dive next year if things continue down this path. What will happen if we whiff on recruiting and Bragg , Diallo, Ellis, Traylor, and Mickelson leave? Lucas and Lightfoot lead our frontcourt next year? Could Selden and Svi be done after this year? There are quite a few things that need addressed before this spirals out of control.
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The sky is falling
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I was really hoping that the WSU loss last year would serve as the chip but has anyone heard players or coaches bring that up as motivation? It was the narrative all year for the Royals.
In '08 the narrative was that Self couldn’t make a final four.
What’s this years teams story? What makes it them against the world? With Perry as the leader will they even have the voice to tell it?
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@drgnslayr I don’t know that Perry would show emotion even in your gun to the head scenario. Which in so many careers would be such an amazing skill. To be able to control your emotions so well, to stay even tempered, etc. are all assets, but they don’t necessarily lead to success in his current role as team leader.
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Coach Self needs to find out how to motivate Ellis like this!
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@benshawks08 I think you’re right…I asked on the chat did I just see Zone? No one replied it was so quickly in the past… but I saw it also & couldn’t recocognize what shape it was because it was gone so fast.
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@Statmachine Could Self be looking for a new place to put his shoes? Wouldn’t surprise me in the least…He hasn’t hit on prominent frontcourt guys for years now. Just a thought?! Brad Stevens & Billy Donovan both took the money to a new level…
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@globaljaybird said:
@Statmachine Could Self be looking for a new place to put his shoes? Wouldn’t surprise me in the least…He hasn’t hit on prominent frontcourt guys for years now. Just a thought?! Brad Stevens & Billy Donovan both took the money to a new level…
Popovich has said he will coach out his contract through 2019.
