Mitch Lightfoot, is this a good thing or bad thing
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@jaybate-1.0 So, should we expect him to give the team a bit more free range to “play” this season?
I read one of his quotes from Media day about micromanaging coaches, how they all do it. But, he seemed to hint that he might let his guys play more on their own. With the rule changes, maybe he will have to.
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Not sure how that plays out. Interesting that Self is preparing the fans with the idea that there will be a lot of FTs and fouls this season. In theory (and likelihood) if that happens then teams with a deep bench will benefit most. One more reason why we need to clear Diallo. And hard to say how our perimeter depth will hold out. Matters a lot on player development.
I see it like he may start out giving the guys a longer leash, then if foul trouble occurs he will tighten it up quickly and have an excuse to run things the way he is used to, including with a quick hook on some players, typically freshmen and sophomores.
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My hunch is:
Play for the quick 3 (Good Ball), as in Korea for the first 10 seconds of the clock. Try to take a quick 3 after crossing mid court. If not open pass into post for quick kick out. If no 3pta, shift into Bad Ball the last 20 seconds of the clock.
To do this will leave more decisions about when and where to shoot, and when to shift from good to bad in mid possession to the players.
The object is to maximize long 3ptas and short 3ptas (Bad Ball drive with a FT). Kiss the mid range 2pta good bye.
Bad Ball Defense will be alternated with conventional Self Defense.
The idea will be to keep them disrupted and unable to get comfortable on both ends.
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@jaybate-1.0 Remember, “bad ball” as it was last season, was largely the perpetual weave. The death of the high-low.
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On January 17th of last year, Kansas suffered its first conference loss and it was to ISU at ISU. I don’t know if you remember that game (sure you do)… but ISU got lots of cheap, easy run outs by beating our guys back on their end of the court.
I think that also played a part in Self later turning to BAD BALL.
For me… a big part of BAD BALL is having the guys PRIORITIZE their defense over their offense. Towards the end of the year, we didn’t see many teams out-running us and getting run outs. Self had his guys focused on defense more than offense. Their minds on the offensive side of the ball were focused a lot on getting back on defense quickly instead of executing good offense.
The dynamics of basketball are truly amazing. Talk about shifts in momentum. When a team can’t execute their half court offense the other team often then focuses harder on getting run outs. One thing teams have to do is make sure they get back, especially if their offense isn’t executing well.
But if your offense is executing well and can’t be stopped, the ball isn’t rebounded for a quick outlet and the defense knows it needs to focus more on stopping the scoring, and less on getting out quick on a run out. Sometimes it doesn’t work that way, and teams get good at executing run outs after a basket is scored. Not often. It is usually more about how the offensive team reacts after a basket… if they are celebrating or staying focused and running back on d. Guards usually finish on the run outs, so a lot depends on our guards position and movement after the ball changes hands to the other team. Sometimes teams use fast bigs to get out and can impact the game in many ways, like making the other teams’ bigs not focus as hard on the offensive glass, or possibly hitting the offensive glass harder. The dynamics are unique to the situation and teams need to try different things to impact the game. I’ve always thought we don’t take advantage of this knowledge and strategy enough, but I’m not a coach so I guess there are reasons for that.
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Here’s how I see the potiental Lightfoot signing. Better to sign the 99th ranked guy now and continue to court the elite bigs, than to let him go and end up with Lucas and Anderson. No elite big man will be scared away by a 6’6"(judging by above “highlight” video) marginally athletic Mitch.
I’d love to sign a under-ranked 4 year player with no pressure to go pro, but pressure to learn Bill’s system and make everyone else better…
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Strange as it is, Henry Iba evolved the the high-low offense from his single post weave offense, which was an offense he ran from a single post offense (single low when he had a big man, single high when he had a short post man) for many years, as did many others before and during Iba’s time.
The idea of the original high low was to create an offensive formation that one could use perimeter and inside-out ball movement without a weave to create impact space, or from the same formation run the weave. Iba’s thinking was apparently that when you had little time to teach a team an offense, as at the Olympics, the team would just be taught the passing offense and not the weave, which required more practice and timing. Iba apparently thought the passing offense and the weave were perfectly complementary, originating out of the same formation and that doing so gave a defense a recognition problem to contend with. Another part of the innovation was that the offense enabled greater specialization of tasks inside versus outside. Offenses like Bruce Drake’s Oklahoma Shuffle that grew to dominate the game by the early 1960s shuffled four players through all the positions on the floor except for the post man, who remained in the post and simply moved high and low. But this meant that a big forward, what we today call a 4, who was in the offense precisely to rebound and stick back the misses of the perimeter players and the post man, was frequently outside the paint. The High Low was created in part to relieve the big forward from having to run all over the floor, i.e., be a stretch 4, and just let him work the paint, along with the post an, and leave the perimeter to perimeter players. One irony today is of course that the stretch 4 is in Self’s opinion now the toughest to guard in college basketball. So: though Self runs the high low for many of the same reasons Iba created it, he strives to find the Stretch 4 that is not just a high post man but an attacker from all over the floor as he roams looking for opportunities.
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Have you seen the videos on Lightfoot? He has some very great dunks and rebounds and all evaluations I have seen consider him to be an “elite athlete” with a high level motor athlete. This is what Fraschilla said about him:
“If Mitch were to have a Sam Dekker college career, I think he would be very happy with that,” Fraschilla said. “Sam is a little bigger, Mitch might be a little more explosive, but I think being compared to Dekker is just a testament to what people think about Mitch.
"I told him to continue to work on his ball handling and his ability to play away from the basket so he doesn’t get locked into one spot. I think at the college level he’s going to be a small forward; his athleticism is off the charts.”
I would like to see where you got the information that he is “marginally athletic.”
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“I would like to see where you got the information that he is “marginally athletic.””
I’m not going to insinuate that anyone is “racist”… however… it seems like there exists a bias concerning perception of athleticism between white and black basketball players. I think many assume white players are not elite athletes. I’m not pointing fingers in this forum, but can wave a general finger throughout the sport and definitely include many sports media professionals. You don’t hear the phrase “exceptional athlete” used very often today for white basketball players. And there are many white players that are exceptional athletes.
I think this is something we can take advantage of, and perhaps we are doing so if we sign Lightfoot! He does appear to have very good hops and can definitely get up and down the court quickly. From watching tape on Lightfoot, he appears to be under-appreciated and his ranking is too low. But… we’ve all been wrong before when watching highlight footage. I will save my judgment until I see him in a Jayhawk uniform and running down the court. My guess is that he is under ranked and will climb once he signs with us (if he does). He looks like a solid grab as long as we continue to go after high ranked post players and sign (hopefully) two of those!
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@JayHawkFanToo Mitch Lightfoot is nowhere near as good as Sam Dekker. Dekker was Rivals 13th ranked player in 2012, and left after his junior year. Mitch Lightfoot might have similarities to Dekker’s game, but his skills are either inferior or nowhere near as refined as Dekker’s.
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Fair enough but…
First, I did not compare Lightfoot to Dekker, a couple of college basketball analysts did; you would think they have more information than we do since that is their day time job. Second, Dekker was the top HS player in Wisconsin and he had the East Coast exposure that Lightfoot does not have and the ranking was after his senior year. Lightfoot is the top ranked player in Arizona and now that he has been noticed by the national media and with exposure resulting from signing with a high profile program, I believe that by the end of the season he will be at least top 50. Just my opinion and I could be wrong…
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I know exactly what you are saying and I agree. I believe that Lightfoot will surprise a lot of people.; I understand he has a great motor and attitude and I believe he would do great at KU.
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I don’t want to be hypocritical… so I will mention that I fight off that same bias.
From what I see… Mitch looks to be very athletic and will not be hindered by his athletic level in D1. I’m sure he could stand to be “Hudyized”… but most recruits need strengthening to be competitive in D1. Time to lose the baby fat and step into manhood!
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He is now listed at 6’-8", 210 lbs. If he is going to switch to SF, he is close to his optimal weight; however, if he plays PF he need to gain at least 10-15 lbs.
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It seems like the talk is to keep him at the SF. Since he is quick, better he stay on the large size of a SF instead of being on the small size of a PF. He has a long ways to go size and strength wise to play elite level D1 at the PF.
Seems we could use some depth at the SF slot when looking ahead. By the time he can be really ready to contribute Wayne will be gone (maybe even this year) and BG in two years. Svi will probably be gone then, too.
If his play advances… he is a guy we can utilize as a big 3 or a small 4. Nice to have those options.
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If he can develop into a Chase Budinger type player I would be very pleased.
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Yes… I can see that relative connection more than Sam Dekker.
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@JayHawkFanToo Yes, the fact that he’s white and doesn’t have super “cut” arms does lower people’s expectations of athleticism or general skill level. But as cases like Brady Morningstar show, you can’t be too quick to judge based on looks. Especially when they’re still in high school. If you get a chance google Marc Gasol in high school…
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PHOF!!!
Let players be seen for what they and their body morphologies and heads and hearts and work ethics let them do on the sacred wood.
Independent of stereotypes.
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@JayHawkFanToo said:
however, if he plays PF he need to gain at least 10-15 lbs.
Don’t tell Kevin Young that.
But KY was something of an anomaly, so I don’t dispute the weight estimate you suggest.
My point is only that smart coaches recognize and play the anomalies.
Self recognized that Frank Mason was an anomaly that could play.
Long neck.
Long trunk.
Short effective height.
But out the roof fast twitch muscle and speed and toughness and shooting touch.
He has to play even though he doesn’t look at all like he should excel in D1.
Don’t judge the book by the cover. Read it.
The player that might normally need to add 10-15 lbs. might have been read by Self and might be quite well suited to the position at a lighter weight.
Self has an extraordinarily keen sense of players abilities beyond morphological norms.
I still stubbornly insist that Perry Ellis’ is ridiculously too small, with ridiculously too small hands, to be playing the 4. But Self has found a way to win two conference titles with mister mini-mite at the 4.
Perry has as much time not passing the eye test at the 4, as Brady Morningstar did at the 3, and Kevin Young did at the 4.
One of the great joys I get watching Self coach is his frequent successful defiance of eye tests.
I hate eye tests, even though I can “see” some occasional utility to them.
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Agree with most of what you say on the defensive end.
But it appeared to me that KU worked exceptionally hard for half a season developing BAD BALL. They had break a lot of habits of trying to expand the impact space to get open and, instead, learn to shrink the impact space constantly to shoe while covered in order to draw the fouls. This was completely counter intuitive for Self offensive play the previous seasons. It was our difficulty in breaking these habits that made us look so bad so often, while learning to do it. Then late in the season as we began to habituate BAD BALL, our injuries compounded and those injuries kept us looking worse than we would have otherwise.
Shrinking impact space systematically all over the floor on offense; that was the essence of BAD BALL and what finally distinguished it from Bo Ryan Ball from whence it appears to have sprung in Self’s fertile mind.
To understand the degree of impact Bad Ball had on D1 last season, you have to recall that Fred beat us the first time playing his brand of ball that you describe so well.
By the second meeting, Fred played BAD BALL for a full half.
Think about that!
Bad Ball was such a potent solution to the officiating constraint by then driving play down the stretch of the season that Fred abandoned a successful approach and embraced Bad Ball to try to beat an injury depleted KU team!
Self may never go back to BAD BALL to the extent he did, unless another rash of injuries compells him to, but he will never be able to completely walk away from it. It is too potent a weapon situationally to jettison it. Especially with the players he has back this season. Unless Diallo and Bragg become money b2b, how can Self possibly NOT play some BAD BALL?
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“how can Self possibly NOT play some BAD BALL?”
I see it your way and I agree. We will see some BAD BALL this year.
It does really impact the play of other teams.
What would be really interesting is if Self could inject it into brief periods in the game, just to try to disrupt our opposition’s flow.
But I think there are so many things coaches could try to disrupt flow and they never do it. Of course, while you are busy trying to disrupt the flow of your opponent, what about disrupting the flow of your own guys? It seems like we were are getting killed by another team, that might be a good thing.
I’ve always liked coaches that pull their entire starting five because they are flat. Sit them down. Let them catch their breaths and make them think and watch for a while. That often not only gets them moving, but it can disrupt the flow of your opponents.
I still can’t understand why Calipari didn’t win another trophy last year? He had 2 capable teams running a platoon. Sounds risky… but how would you like to be an opponent? It isn’t just that his team is well-rested… you are playing one team and suddenly you are playing another team. Sounds like a tough challenge to me.
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At 6’-8", Perry Ellis can be and and actually is not just a serviceable PF but a very good one…at the college level; however. at the next level he would be very undersized. Many of the players that we used to think of as Centers are now PFs and the average PF is 6’-10 and 270 pounds and many are well above average 3-point shooters to booth and can extend the position outside the 3 point line. I count maybe 5 true Centers ins the NBA now. I always thought that Ellis should play SF which is what he will be playing in the NBA but his 3-point shot just statred to develop; hopefully we can see him playing that position this season although that is unlikely as KU needs him at PF.
Lightfoot has a better 3-point range than Ellis did when he came to KU so there is a good chance that he can play SF, depending on who we get playing inside…but much like Ellis, he might be force to play PF.
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If only Perry were near the size you say and had a short neck he would be able to score B2B and rock with the blue meanies, instead of have to spin and stretch at the 4.
He apparently had a fine touch from Trey when he came to KU, but Self’s other starters precluded letting him shoot from there before he was futilely tried as power forward. Woe, woe, woe is Perry Ellis; two whole seasons waisted banging inside, when he was too small.
Perry can’t be effective on the blocks against fully half the players he meets in D1 after 3 years. He only began to flourish when Self began to recast him as a stretch 4, which in Perry’s case is really a second 3.
But he is exceptional in that role, as he always would have been, because of his near 40% Trey gun.
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@JayHawkFanToo said:
Have you seen the videos on Lightfoot?
Yes, I watched the highligh reel above and my optimism dropped. He looks short and barely getss above the rim. He’s not the 6’10" 210# athletic baller that I had hoped.
He has some very great dunks and rebounds and all evaluations I have seen consider him to be an “elite athlete” with a high level motor athlete. This is what [Fraschilla said about him:]
I don’t value Fran’s hyperbole. It’s his job to hype kids up. If I 99% of kids had a Sam Dekker kind of year they’d be happy.
“If Mitch were to have a Sam Dekker college career, I think he would be very happy with that,” Fraschilla said. “Sam is a little bigger, Mitch might be a little more explosive, but I think being compared to Dekker is just a testament to what people think about Mitch.
"I told him to continue to work on his ball handling and his ability to play away from the basket so he doesn’t get locked into one spot. I think at the college level he’s going to be a small forward; his athleticism is off the charts.”
I would like to see where you got the information that he is “marginally athletic.”
Marginally athletic thru KU jaded eyes. He’s not elite nor will he be with work, but he could be a valuable asset. I just watched the above highlight video and formed my own opinion. Try it some day. You don’t have to be told everything. And no, it’s not because he’s white, it’s because he’s slow and looks like he will be blocked repeatedly until he speeds up.
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FWIW, it is not just Fraschila, most evaluations I have read of him have him as being very athletic and with a great motors and the tape I have seen of him appear to show that much. Apparently we either watched different tapes or our concept of athleticism is quite different. Like I said, I would not be surprised if he finishes the season ranked in the top 50. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree,
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The only thing I’ve seen on any video that is impressive about Lightfoot is his bounce. Here’s another video
He doesn’t move fast and easy. He does not look quick. I think the description of him being athletic is because he can jump. That’s good of course. But he looks mechanical in the post, not completely natural. And he certainly doesn’t look like a guy that could patrol the perimeter.But that doesn’t mean he’s not worth signing and developing. He won’t look good as the 2nd post guy in the class, but would be fine as the 3rd.
As a comparison, go back and look at Carlton Bragg’s videos – the #21 player. Lightfoot isn’t even on the same planet. Whether it be quickness, leaping ability, fluidity, ball handling, jump shot, post moves, whatever – Bragg is superior. And it isn’t close.
If you go to 1:35 on the Lightfoot video link above, you’ll see a three point shot. This is not a guy that has the look of a D-1 level SF right now. Nor a D-1 level four. Who knows if he’ll develop, or grow two inches, or bulk up, or whatever. When you look at his shot, he doesn’t appear to have that natural flow to it. It actually reminds me a lot of Perry Ellis’ shot. Watch Bragg’s shoot. Much different.
Bragg is the kind of post player that moves like a SF, and has the game of a SF.
We just need to relax. Resist the urge to be giddy – and for these purposes, I use “giddy” as meaning irrationally excited. Maybe we should simply square our expectations to exactly what his final ranking ends up being? See where, how and if he fits. Right now, he’s a borderline top 100. So should there be any expectations? None – zero. When/if he moves up, perhaps we reassess.
There is no way next season he’s ahead of Bragg, Coleby, Lucas, or Bolden (or Herard, or Allen – whoever we land). And there is no way he’s ahead of any of our current perimeter guys. And that’s fine. Come in, work, develop, an we’ll see.
These comparisons to Budinger and Dekkar are like comparisons to Bragg. What I mean are guys that are NBA quality. Regardless of which commentator said what, or who posted what here, breathing Dekkar or Budinger in the same breath as Lightfoot is silly, and really unfair to Lightfoot right now. We have this tendency to have visions of grandeur with every signee – he’s this or he’s that.
Chase Budinger was the #4 player in the country for goodness sake. And he plays in the NBA. I would certainly guess we would be pleased if he develops into that. As noted above, Sam Dekkar was the #13 player in the country. He’s a stud. 1st round pick. Lightfoot is #117 at Rivals, #98 or something at ESPN, and #132 at 24/7.
One of these things is not like the other, which one is different, do you know?
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I heard a nice comparison, a more energetic but higher ceiling than Kevin young. Guess we will see.
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Thanks for bringing us all back to earth.
I think we all get excited when Kansas signs anyone, especially as the early signing period approaches and Kansas has NO ONE!
If Mitch picks Kansas, I’m behind him 100%… he is a Jayhawk. Our support is helpful, but either the young man can develop and produce or he can’t. I don’t think Self offered him thinking he will come in and start as a freshman… maybe never start. But there has to be a reason why he offered him. Everything on this kid says he has a great attitude, lots of smiles, etc. He may be a great pick for a backup post player, great practice post player for our other guys, etc. etc. And maybe he has potential to develop into someone who will get vital minutes some day.
If I think we risk anything… it is that we will only have X amount of scholarships… and if we start nailing some elites… will we have to stop and decline an elite because we have no scholarships to fill?
We are all focused on filling post spots, but we need at least one guard (actually, two!). We definitely could use a developmental PG. Someone who can eventually replace Frank and Devonte and this guard should be a REAL PG! Not a “utility player that can dribble”. Or a big guard where Self claims he can play anywhere 1 through 4 (like he said about Wayne).
If we pick up a couple of real PGs every couple of years, we will start a PG developmental program. So one of these guards will become legit and has a couple of years to learn the system, learn Self-ball. That is our ticket to future success. If we don’t do that, we become another KC Chiefs franchise… pickup great talent everywhere but quarterback! Create outrageous frustration with the fan base by showing all that talent that has no leadership behind them. I haven’t watched a single down of Chiefs football after the Denver blow. I simply can’t stomach it any longer! I’d rather watch golf.
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He picked us! Was just announced.
Said he liked Mario’s 3, the Morri and for @Crimsonorblue22 he loved TRob’s heart every time he stepped on the court.
In other news, UT BEAT the pussycats today. We’ve had 6 + inches of rain since midnight. Snyder was outcoached. No TOs in all that rain!
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@RockChalkinTexas I’m hoping we can give ksu a game this year? Maybe? Their qb’s may be brain damaged before that time. Taking a beating! Did you see Snyder get hit on the sideline? Got right up.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Saw on replay. I was making cookies!
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I see your point or point but you are also comparing the senior rankings of Dekker and Budinger and Bragg’s highlights against those of junior Lightfoot. Yes, Dekker and Budinger made it to the NBA but Budinger is pretty much a role player and we have not seen what Dekker will do and both stayed 3 years in college before moving to the NBA. Would you feel better if at the end of the season Lightfoot is top 50 or higher ranked player?
I am not saying that he is or will be an NBA type talent but I see him being a solid contributor, perhaps not in his first years but in subsequent years which has been cited often in this forum as being the ideal core/foundation player.
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@JayHawkFanToo I agree obviously on the timing of the video stuff … and yes, I would definitely feel better if he finishes top 50. Admittedly superficial at this point.
But really, I’ll feel much better if we get 2 of the 3 we’re really pursuing hard in the post (Bolden, Allen, Herard).
I’m just concerned that Lightfoot could cost us the opportunity to do that, given our three bigs that will likely return.
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@JayHawkFanToo Budinger and Dekker were both 5 star players who only playes 3 years in college. Chase Budinger was the runner up in the McDonald’s dunk contest and both he and Dekker averaged double digit points per game all 3 of their seasons.
As great as Budinger was at Arizona, he was still only a mid second round pick. Unless Lightfoot turns into KU’s Trey Burke (low ranked player who significantly overachieves his ranking), he’s not an NBA prospect.
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…but, if any of the high prospect bigs KU is pursuing feels threatened by Lightfoot…do we really want that player?
There is no way we get the 3 players you mentioned; best possible case two and more likely one. I just don’t see Lightfoot as having a bearing on Bolden or Allen, maybe Herard?
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You get no argument from me. Bu there is no reason why even if he is not an NBA prospect that he cannot be a solid contributor. Perry Ellis might not play in the NBA but when he is done, he will be one of the better players at KU.
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@JayHawkFanToo Why would 33rd ranked true post Herard be scared of stretch 4 Lightfoot? Perry Ellis is going to end up in tge top 10 of KU’s all time scoring list barring injury this year and is an All-American and Big 12 POY candidate this year. You really need to take a step backon your projections for anybodythat signs at KU because every player that signs at KU is a future NBA player based on your attitude and talent assessment when that’s simply not reality. This current KU roster this year has 3 guys that will for sure get drafted (Diallo, Bragg, Svi), not necessarily this year. 1 that will more than likely get drafted (Selden), and 3 more guys who may get drafted (Ellis, Graham, and Vick). As good as Mason is, he isn’t a draft prospect because of his lack of size, but will have to go through training camp to get his shot.
@HighEliteMajor I really don’t see Lucas or Coleby being an impediment to signing Bolden or Herard. Bolden is better than Lucas today, and Herard is a 1st year off the bench guy if Bolden signs.
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@JayHawkFanToo Right, I had said 2 of 3. I think that was realistic. Regardless of opinions on players, numbers certainly impact. I would agree though that Lightfoot shouldn’t discourage any of the three.
Look at it this way, is our post recruiting a success if we get Bolden and Lightfoot only? Or Allen and Lightfoot? Or Herard and Lightfoot?
I would say no.
If it were Bolden and Allen, or Bolden and Herard, or Allen and Herard?
I would say yes.
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Bolden & Lightfoot would be okay, 1 can play immediately & 1 is a stash & develop.
Allen is kind of a sleeper, although his ranking certainly suggest he’s pretty good. From some of his tape, he looks light for a guy his size.
If Bolden bails, Allen is the next best thing. Nobody has an idea what Azubuike will do but he’s definitely been on a visit spree since KU. I’d take the space eater anyday.
Herard & Lightfoot would be worst case scenario, a scenario I’m petrified by but could see happening.
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@BeddieKU23 said:
Herard & Lightfoot would be worst case scenario, a scenario I’m petrified by but could see happening.
That’s not the worst case scenario. Worst case scenario is only Lightfoot and KU is stuck with a front court of Bragg, Coleby, Lightfoot, and Lucas next year.
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I don’t recall ever saying that every player that signs with KU is a future NBA player; in fact I said quite the opposite. I mentioned that Ellis, arguably one of the better recent players at KU might not even play in the NBA…right? I did indicate that Lightfoot might be the 3-4 year core type of player that has worked well for KU.
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I’ll be happy if he’s just a Patrick Richey kind of player.
