Honestley guys Would Schnider REALLY be that bad of an idea?
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Looking at Schnider, he would not be one of my top choices.
His hands aren’t that great, so his offensive utility will be limited by that.
He doesn’t have a lot of interior moves (basically just dunks and a basic jump hook), so he can probably be defended by smaller guys fairly easily since his small arsenal of moves won’t punish smaller guys if they are strong.
His highlights don’t show a lot of defense, which is a concern. He’s not a stiff, but he’s not a young Tyson Chandler or Kevin Garnett out there, although few are.
Basically, the upside is that he is big and you can’t make a small guy magically become his size. He’s also very strong. The downside is that he doesn’t yet have the skills to go along with that size and strength. He may take a year in college before he is really able to contribute. May need a redshirt to truly maximize his potential, which means he can’t be the only big in his class because we probably can’t rely on him in Year One.
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Didn’t know if anyone saw the post at kusports.com in the Bolden article. A poster mentioned the relationship Avery Johnson has with a Texas billionaire, Kenny Troutt. He said he was the link to Julius Randle that got Randle to UK. There was a link to an article.
Thought this was interesting and might partially explain Bolden’s sudden interest in 'Bama, together with the AAU coach connection.
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@justanotherfan This is why Schnider Herard is not someone you recruit as a centerpiece of the class. He’s someone you recruit as a second or third big in this class because he is raw and is a project player who doesn’t figure to contribute significantly until year 2 and beyond at KU.
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@jayballer54 Plenty of fans didn’t want to sign Frank Mason either, shows how good some of them are at projecting talent… It was all fanfare for Cliff, all “waste of a scholarship” for Frank, and look who’s contributed more to the program. I think Schnider would be an excellent pickup for the 2nd or 3rd big in the class, provided the staff can land a more dynamic talent for the 1st spot. He appears to have more strength than any big ranked ahead of him besides Azubuike, and it would be great to have either one of them (or both) to complement a more talented scoring big like Bolden in the post.
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@Makeshift That is the trump card, isn’t it? Mason – no rank Frank.
But the rankings are our best guide, right? They have proven over and over again to be the best indicator of immediate contribution and ceiling. There are exceptions, for sure.
Mason is (maybe) our Trey Burke. We deserve that.
Really, though, what low ranked player ever really exceeded his ranking under Self, other than Mason? Probably Morningstar? Possibly Reed?
Traylor sucking is right in line with his non-ranking and Lucas is at best pedestrian. Other guys like Releford ascended pretty much in line with his ranking, being a force in the latter half of his tenure here.
Schnider, as you mentioned, as the 2nd or 3rd big, is fine, but not as the #1 dude in the post in this class.
Bolden and Schnider. A reasonable wish list.
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@HighEliteMajor I would say Tyshawn Taylor went above an beyond expectations. He was ranked in the low 70’s and then started 4 years at one of the most elite programs in the country and went to a National Title game. In 2012 only a few guys in the entire country were better than he was.
I love the Burke comparison. If Mason can take us to a title game I think you can feel pretty comfortable saying “no rank Frank” is our Burke.
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@joeloveshawks On Tyshawn, he really only played well in the 2nd half of his senior season (I simply could not stand the guy, or his game, until that turnaround, except for the first 12 games or so his junior season). I might think that a 70ish player would do at least that, if not playing solid by his junior season. But being say a top 5 point guard by your senior season might be a reasonable trajectory. I can definitely see the merit in your argument, though.
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@HighEliteMajor I agree that overall rankings have been a pretty darn good indicator of how players turn out. I think the other thing on my mind is that Schnider’s ranking is decent: 41 on Rivals.com. That’s right in between the Morris twins’ rankings, so I think his 3-4 year projection is pretty good compared to Jamari or Landen. He is lower on ESPN at 69, but I don’t know if they’re any better than Rivals when it comes to recruiting. Plus he supposedly has only been playing organized basketball for about a year, which raises his possible ceiling. “Tremendous upside” - ESPN
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I base my evals off rankings and watching the guy play. I don’t care where Frank was ranked. I watched him get to the rim at will, handle the basketball like it was on a string and score in bushels. He wasn’t ranked because he was 5-10, but from a skill perspective, there was no question that he could play, and that he played tough.
My issue with Herard isn’t that he isn’t ranked high - it’s that he has great physical characteristics, but lacks pure basketball skills. With big men, I want to see if they are fluid when they run, move, etc. Herard is not. Watch a guy of similar size that is/was ranked high, like a Jahlil Okafor, then watch Herard. Okafor has tremendous body control and moves gracefully, even though he’s a giant of a man. Herard is much more deliberate and clunky in his movements on the floor. His post moves are rudimentary. Heck, compare Herard to his HS teammate (and 80 grade player) D’Jery Baptiste.
I also want to see big men with soft hands. I call it the oop test. Watch highlights of a big guy and see if he catches any lobs. If not, that’s a telltale sign that he doesn’t have good hands, or isn’t coordinated enough to catch an alley oop and finish. I have not seen Herard catch a single oop, or have a tip jam. For a guy his size, that makes me worry about his coordination and hands.
It’s just a matter of whether Herard can develop the coordination/ hands/ body control necessary to become a good player at the D1 level, or if he will continue to struggle with those things, which will limit him severely at the college level. Like I said before, I love his size, but the lack of basketball skills and athletic tools (coordination, explosive leaping ability, speed, catching ability, body control) is a concern.
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@justanotherfan Regarding Mason, I would disagree on the height thing – how was he not ranked because of his height, and then ranked later (all being at the same height)? Mason was Self’s 6th choice, or thereabouts. Heck, Frankamp was listed at 6’0" and in the top 50. Mason was listed at 5’11". Kasey Hill was a top 15 guy at 6’0" that same year. I just don’t think the height was that big of a deal. Sherron was listed as 5’11" and ranked top 15.
I really like your take on Herard. That’s the sort of analysis that really tells the story on how to project a guy. I agree on the lob test – that’s a good measuring stick. A piece of the puzzle. He does seem athletic to me, but mechanical – not smooth (you said clunky). His baby hook (right hand only) is just average. Herard would not be a factor in 2016-17, but is a guy to develop so he’d be a rotation guy as a junior/senior, and maybe even as a sophomore. Lots of tools that warrant a scholarship as the 2nd or ideally 3rd big man in the class, as has been discussed.
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“Schnider, as you mentioned, as the 2nd or 3rd big, is fine, but not as the #1 dude in the post in this class.”
I’m curious what your thoughts are on Azubuike? It looks like we have offered him and are recruiting him hard now.
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@drgnslayr I prefer Bolden … I’ll take the guy with the skills over the bulk. But both would work fine! I will be disappointed if we don’t get Bolden, no matter who we get. But if we got Azubuike, I wouldn’t complain. Not a presumed OAD, which is good. Big, which is good. Agile, which is good. In the recruiting game, as we have discussed, covering ones bases is an absolute necessity.
I admit I may be overly enamored with Bolden, but I just think his skill set translates to some quick impact. He’s long, he can score with both hands, etc. Lots of game ready stuff, in my opinion. Perfect for what we need in Self’s offense. He keeps creeping up the rankings.
Bolden and Azubuike would be terrific. We have to have two guys. It’s a must. Three would be perfect.
What do you think about Azubuike?
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“What do you think about Azubuike?”
I’m purely speculating here… but I see his size, strength and agility and I think he will be able to focus on his game instead of just being “Hudyized.” He is already Hudyized, though it never hurts to get stronger and reduce body fat. So I see his game improving quickly.
I see him as a guy that is a perfect marriage with Self, and Self’s concept of low post offense. It would take a year or two for him to master some back to the basket moves, but that is great because it keeps him in Lawrence and off the NBA draft charts.
In the very least he can immediately do some of what Towns did for Kentucky last year; back to the basket and crudely taking tiny, forceful steps backwards to get closer before shooting. But Udoka would have his break out year eventually and that would be a monster year where every team in the nation will struggle trying to stop his low post scoring. There just aren’t many big bodies out there who could stop him from the rim. NBA is a different story and Udoka will have a definite adjustment period learning how to make points in the league.
There really is no reason why he couldn’t be a double-double guy even as soon as his freshman year. Just on the rebound side… he should quickly dominate and some of those rebounds involve putbacks to lift his scoring numbers. The biggest question is his ability to not foul and also if he can shoot FTs.
I look at him and I’m not counting on him dominating year 1. But I don’t see why he wouldn’t be dominant in year 2 and on. I like the gamble on him quite a bit more than I do Schnider because of his physicality. He is a rare gem, no doubt, and he looks to be a possible big score if he can be polished!
My guess is that the longer he goes unsigned, the higher his rankings will climb. He is getting more attention all the time, and part of that is because Self is after him. He is a guy I would target hard to sign in the coming signing period!
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Nice post!
When I see Azubuike I see more Shaq than anyone. Can’t shoot FT but is such a big body that will always be his strength especially in College. Can he develop touch with his power?
With Bolden I see more Okafor than anyone else of comparison. Guy can flat out score with both hands & unlike Okafor can actually defend and block shots. Because we lose Ellis it forces our hand to find a scoring big & he’s the perfect fit…
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So we all agree then, Bolden and Azubuike? I’ll let coach Self know.
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I have not seen highlights yet of either Bolden or Azubuike but reading the comments above makes me think I am missing out and need to get on youtube ASAP. The comparisons to Towns (the #1 pick in the draft) Okafor (the best player on the National Championship team) and Shaq (the best pure center in the NBA over the last 30 years) are pretty lofty. Here is to hoping we land either guy and that they are even close to as good as the players mentioned.
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Well please don’t build your expectations to those levels! The references are related to the style of play, not necessarily promoting these recruits to equivalences.
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@drgnslayr well guy says Flordia State is leading on him right now ( Udoke ) but KU was making a hard push. I think we could have quite a combination, lloks like we are in on quite a few of bigs, which we DO need. I think Udoke, is better then Herard, but still believe he is at least a 3 year player also, there has been some talk of getting 2-3 bigs in 2016 which we are probably gonna need,so IF we could get both Azubike & Herard and then more of an elite profile as the 3rd, I know that’s a big if BUT it that panned out we would be vey solid at that spot as I believe Azubike & Herard would fill in quite nicely as backup for some relief minutes get some playing time and develop would would be fine for some years to come quite solid there. ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@joeloveshawks said:
Shaq (the best pure center in the NBA over the last 30 years)
I’m sorry, but Shaq is not the best pure center of the past 30 years. He was a one dimensional player who only knew how use his butt to move people of the way. He was an overrated defender who could basically be brick wall and extend his hands. Give me Hakeem as the best pure center of the past 3o years. Hakeem was a legit 7 footer who had moves like a guard and could actually guard away from the basket. If you want to see a center with amazing skill and not just run people over like Shaq, go watch Clutch City next time it comes on NBATV because that was Hakeem at his peak and he went through all 3 of Ewing, Robinson, and Shaq to get those two championships and was the best player on the court in all of those series.
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I miss his shake and bake. Olajuwon had perhaps the best footwork of any center to ever play in the league. So many times he would snag a defensive rebound and drive coast-to-coast and finish at the rim. No one had an answer for that. Never did, and probably never would. Back to the basket or facing the basket in mid range,… he had it all.
Sometimes he would toy with defenders. He was facing the basket and he would start a move and already have the defender beat, but he would give him another chance by turning his back to the basket so he could show how he could beat him that way, too.
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I’m sorry, but Shaq is not the best pure center of the past 30 years. He was a one dimensional player who only knew how use his butt to move people of the way. He was an overrated defender who could basically be brick wall and extend his hands.
I think you are remembering old Shaq. Go back and look at Young Shaq, the player that came into the league and played that way until 2001 or so. Young Shaq was as mobile as peak Hakeem. He could run the floor and was so quick and agile around the rim that his power caught most players off guard. He had both speed and power.
I’ll just leave this here.
Check out the lob he catches over Hakeem. His quickness there catches a very quick player off guard because Hakeem was gearing up for the power and was left helpless by the agility. Shaq had both as a young player, but did not keep his body in shape to maintain that athleticism as he got older and put on more weight.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Hey, man. I love Hakeem the Dream. Arguably one of the most fun players to watch in any sport.
But better than Shaq? It is a good argument. Only Hakeem is even in the same conversation in the last few decades. Very different players. Ewing and Robinson? I have a feeling you are in a very small minority of people who feel these guys are even in the same league as Shaq. Shaq was unstoppable for a large stretch of time and won rings on multiple teams. He impacted the game at both ends of the floor more than any other player I can think of and he was multi-dimensional. Huge in size yes, but nimble, good passer; good basketball IQ and one of the most dominant players in all sports in his prime.
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Yes Florida St has been the leader for a while. I hear that he was brought to the USA by connections of the FSU program. So his handler’s might be pushing him there in the end. We definitely seem to be gaining ground which is a rarity this summer with these kids & the fact that he locked in a visit is very promising. Norm Roberts has been the guy on him so there’s definitely a possibility that he could commit here.
Dewan Huell is a key guy in the Azubuike sweepstakes. Another Florida kid that FSU is the leader with & is a PF/C type. If he’s to commit before him, then it could really push Udoka our way. That’s all just speculation at this point though.
I also see Tony Bradley chose UNC so there’s another big off the board…
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@joeloveshawks Here’s a link that has two videos on Bolden. Just scroll down a bit.
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@drgnslayr Hakeem really excelled at every part of the game. All-time leader in blocked shots, exceptional low-post defender, shooting, top 10 in steals (for any position), rebounding, size, and possibly the best footwork of any big ever. He helped LeBron to develop his post game after the 2011 Finals, which was a key part of his improvement for the 2012 season.
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@HighEliteMajor Looks like a stud to me.
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Yes! Skill-wise, I don’t find it a close comparison between him and Shaq. Shaq had size and was able to take advantage of his size to be effective. But there is no way anyone can compare these two on a skill level and not choose Hakeem.
In fact… what other center out there could match his footwork alone?
I’m not trying to knock Shaq. He was an amazing player in his own right. But where are all the examples of him taking the ball coast-to-coast, even dribbling behind his back, and finishing at the hole? Or all the crazy back-to-the-basket moves like Hakeem had, including fade aways and all the moves you would expect from a talented guard, not a big man?
