No more softball
-
-
@approxinfinity he has what Self wanted from Cliff!
-
Well put.
I’m right there with you, the All-Star games showed that he was already light years ahead in the effort department from the rest. That to me translates immediately, and gives me optimism that he will grasp the system like we want him to. Hopefully we are not disappointed.
Great point on the foul trouble. That will be the one thing that stands in his way, much like it did with Cliff last year. Diallo is much quicker and a better defender so I think he will be better at knowing defensive positioning and moving his feet. He’s like a Gazelle out there. We all know Cliff’s defense left a lot to be desired, he just needed more PT than he ended up getting.
Diallo did tend to foul a lot in the HS games that I watched last year and this year but his team was not great. They lacked a good back-court & relied so much on Yakwe (2016 recruit) & Dillard (signed with Cal) at the SF/post spots that it placed a lot of pressure on Diallo down low. I think having Mason, Graham, Svi & Selden as capable passers is a major upgrade from anything Diallo has seen in his life.
I’d be jumping out of my shorts if he gets enough minutes for 9 rebounds a game. That would be beasting numbers from a freshman. He’s capable but as you said will Self give him the PT to get it
-
“he has what Self wanted from Cliff!”
Right on! Self rewards hustle and team play. I know Cheick will bring the hustle and I’m confident he’ll pick up his assignments better than Cliff did.
Cliff committed too many Self cardinal sins. His biggest being that he couldn’t read defensive switches and would get burned with an easy basket at the rim because he either left his man or he didn’t make the switch. Doing that will guarantee a player bench time on Self’s team, and I agree with Self on that one! It only takes a couple of those to lose the defensive team spirit. Pretty soon other players give in and soften up because the other team scores too easily with them hustling.
Unless Cheick has a real flaw to deal with, I see him getting 25+ minutes in conference play. We have to give some good PT to our bench if we want to be our best in March. Bragg, Lucas, BamBam and sometimes Mickelson will surely get some minutes.
“Bragg, Lucas, BamBam and sometimes Mickelson will surely get some minutes.”
Gosh… how is that going to work? How are all those guys going to get minutes? Seems like Mickelson would be best to do a grad transfer, if he can. I don’t see him developing much this coming year with so little PT. BamBam is in his path, and no way Self abandons BamBam. He has “chosen one” minutes guaranteed. He is another player, like Wayne, that needs to be pushed into real improvements. The only way to do that is to make him compete for his minutes.
-
The more I watch Diallo’s videos, the more he reminds me of T-Rob. Diallo’s minutes will be largely dependant upon his ability to stay out of foul trouble as others have said. I would expect him to be around 20 mpg early on while he learns to play D1 defense eventually ending the season in the 25-27 mpg range playing in the 30 mpg range at the end of the season. I don’t remember who compared him to Blake Griffin, I don’t see those offensive numbers because Diallo will be at best the 3rd or 4th option and may be the 5th option. Ellis and Mason will be the top 2, and Graham will likely be third and I think Svi will be 4th and then Diallo.
-
Spot on. Cliff is a very gifted athlete but unfortunately he was hopelessly behind when it came to BBall IQ, the result, no doubt, of a HS system (not much different than playground BBall) where the coach pretty much turns the players lose and they do what their natural talent tells them to do, which in many cases is sufficient in HS but seriously deficient when they get to college. Another year of college will have done wonders for Cliff as he learned the proper way to play basketball.
-
@Texas-Hawk-10 I compared him to Griffin. You’re right, he’s not nearly as good a scorer as Griffin, but I stand by that comparison. Even if he’s less offensively talented, they both use high energy, great instincts, and elite athleticism to take over games. Diallo’s just going to be doing more of his winning on D, where he’s likely to outshine Blake. So even if they aren’t identical players, they’re cut from the same cloth. Two sides of the same coin, so to speak.
TRob would be another good comparison from a rebounding and energy standpoint, but I think that undersells Diallo’s athleticism a bit, and his defense and ‘feel’ quite a lot. TRob was way more like Cliff as a freshman; often lost on D, and way too much of a foul magnet, but powerful and an exceptional rebounder.
I don’t expect Diallo to put up Griffin’s offensive numbers. He’s not going to be a top scoring option, and even if he were, he’s just not a natural scorer. But he’s a guy who, with decent minutes, could approach double digit rebounds and block 2.5 shots a game. That plus 8-9 ppg would be a fine thing.
-
I did not mention Griffin at all, so you must be thinking of another poster. I did mention that Diallo might have a TRob sophomore but not quite junior-like season…unlikely that any freshman would have a TRob junior-like season that made him POY candidate.
-
@JayHawkFanToo Sorry, sometimes if I have something highlighted it pulls in part of the text. That was in reply to @Texas-Hawk-10 .
-
@konkeyDong I think Robinson as a sophomore is more where I see Diallo now. T-Rob was a high 4 star recruit and Diallo is a top 10 player so Diallo is entering college further ahead than T-Rob did.
-
“Cliff is a very gifted athlete but unfortunately he was hopelessly behind when it came to BBall IQ, the result, no doubt, of a HS system (not much different than playground BBall) where the coach pretty much turns the players lose and they do what their natural talent tells them to do, which in many cases is sufficient in HS but seriously deficient when they get to college.”
Spot on back to you!
You can say the same thing about academics. I’m sure he didn’t have the proper habits and foundation to jump right into college. The academic overload put on him also had to hurt his ability to grasp Self-ball. Too many things to learn in a short time frame.
Another year of school and he would have adjusted to both the academics and Self-ball. It would all start coming easier (and faster).
-
@Texas-Hawk-10 Sophomore Robinson had to play behind the Morris twins. Who is going to start over Cheick after November? He is closer to Freshman Anthony Davis than Sophomore Robinson!
-
@Statmachine What does starting or coming off the bench have to do with ones skill level? That is determined by the skill level of other players on the team.
Diallo and Davis don’t have much in common with their games. Davis was a vastly superior offensive player because he was a PG until he shot up 8 inches before his senior year. Davis and Embiid are the two most offensively skilled big men in a generation. Diallo is not a highly skilled offensive player, he is a high energy, power player who will get most of his points off of offensive rebounds, lobs, and establishing position under the basket like Robinson did as a sophomore. Similar per 40 min. numbers to what Robinson did as a sophomore aren’t out of the question for what Diallo is capable of.
-
@Texas-Hawk-10 said: Diallo is not a highly skilled offensive player
So how exactly does one score 26 pts and get 11 boards in 20 minutes against the best competition in the country if they are not a highly skilled offensive player? He also went 12-16 in fg’s I would say that’s pretty efficient. I am just curious?
-
In this video Cheick has some assists, some great outlet passes, puts the ball on the floor, creats his own shot, and posterizes some High school punks!
-
Just because someone was a PG until their senior year does not make one vastly superior offensively! They may have better handles but vastly superior offensively no!
-
If you have ever had a child in soccer at age 4 or so? You see a BUNCH of kids huddled around the soccer ball. Cheick always has him self in the right spots and in a position to score (around the ball) due to effort and hustle but how is that not offensive effort?
-
@Statmachine Not being a highly skilled player does not mean a player is incapable of being an efficient scorer. Shaq was never considered a highly skilled player, he just over powered people and took the vast majority of his shots from inside 5’ of the basket.
It doesn’t take a lot of skill to score off of offensive rebounds, lobs, and inside of 5’ which is what Diallo is going to be asked to do this year.
-
Oh I was under the impression that scoring points was offense? Scoring a lot of points meant you were good offensively? Doesn’t it take skill to score a lot of points per game? I guess I must be wrong? My bad
-
With all due respect, I don’t think the comparison with Shaq is valid. Yes, Shaq was not the most skilled player but he was 7’-2" and 325 pounds and very strong so he could run over just about any player; the same cannot be said about Cheick Diallo who is 6 inches shorter and 100 pounds lighter, wouldn’t you agree?
I believe we might be surprised by how much readier than we think Diallo is. If you watched the All-Star games, a few players stood out as being more ready than the rest and Diallo was at the top with Simmons and Trier close behind.
-
@Statmachine What I think is going on here is the terminology I’m using is complicating things. I tend to use the terms skill and finesse interchangeably when describing a players game.
Diallo is not a finesse player just like T-Rob was never a finesse player.
@JayHawkFanToo It is apt comparison at this point because Diallo was almost always the biggest player on the court. The number of 6-9, 220-225 lb. HS players is a very small number. Like I said above, not having the biggest variety of moves does not preclude someone from being a competent, capable scorer. Once Diallo learns how to seal his guy under the basket, it doesn’t take a lot moves to be able to score inside of 5’.
-
@Texas-Hawk-10 ok we might be able to be friends after all lol. I see what you are saying now.
-
I think your under valuing what a player does in the paint. You make the statement that hey if you can learn to seal your guy then it’s easy.
If it was so easy whey do so many big man fail in the NBA and even the college game?
-
@DoubleDD It’s not a hard skill to learn and master, but not everyone is capable of doing it either. Being able to seal a defender off under the basket requires the strength to be able to establish that position and to be able to hold that position. Not every player has the strength to do this. Landen Lucas and Hunter Mickelson both lacked the strength to hold their position under the basket and were regularly pushed out from the basket and had to take more difficult shots.
-
You also said that Diallo isn’t a natural scorer. OK fine, but all I can tell you is the dude played in two star studded events with the best of the best in his class. Walked away with the MVP twice.
Whatever he does I hope he brings it to KU. I’ll take a gamer over a natural scorer any day.
-
@DoubleDD T-Rob wasn’t a natural scorer either. All that means is that Diallo will have to get himself in proper position and be dependent on other players to get him the ball to score.
-
I know as fans we break down a players game and do the whole comparing to the greatest. Yet I have to say I’m a bit taken back by some of the comments I’m reading. It would seem a consensus has been formed that Diallo will be nothing more than a motor guy.
So what if Diallo isn’t on the same level as JoJo talent wise. Last time I checked Embiid didn’t win a championship for KU. I’m not sure he would have even if he didn’t get hurt.
Maybe Diallo isn’t the polished big man you all want? So what if he doesn’t have a plethora of moves under the basket. The kid can play.
This kid played against the best of his class, and I know how you guys put so much stock in the rankings of players and recruiting classes. Yet you can’t give credit where credit is do? He took on the best in not one but two star studded games of the best upcoming talent (OAD) and walked away MVP twice.
Whatever this kid has it’s golden. I’m afraid you guys aren’t looking at the big picture here. Um we still have Ellis. Yea you know that kid from Wichita that keeps getting better and better. Now think about it? Starting lineup with Diallo who took on all comers and walked away MVP along side the Designer. Are you kidding me?
Something tells me when Ellis makes a wonderful move and the ball doesn’t quite go down we’re going to hear this thunderous dunk as the crowd goes wild. We’ll look up and Diallo will be hanging on the rim and the announcers will be saying how did he do that.
Diallo is a gamer boys, and so is Bragg. It’s been awhile but I can finally say with out a doubt we have a team that can win it all.
-
@DoubleDD Given my age I can’t remember if anyone here has indicated that they have seen Diallo play in a couple of games other than all star games. If so, what did you think of his skills to do things other than stuff the ball and have a very big motor? I vaguely remember that we had mix tapes of JoJo. The amazing thing is how those tapes showed the subtle nuances of his footwork. NOT!!
How many mix tapes has anyone here seen that shows the finesse level of the player? These tapes show dunks and blocks for bigs. If he can shoot, they will show some of that but the emphasis is stuff and block.
If anyone here doesn’t think that “want” is as important as anything, you didn’t see the Warriors and Cavs play tonight. The more highly skilled and finesse team had their lunch eaten by a team that wanted it more. With the exception of LeBron the Cavs are a bunch of cast offs and role players and yet here we are with them leading the series 2 to 1.
We will find out in a few months if Diallo has offensive skills. Until we see him playing against D1 and international talent we really don’t have a clue about his present skills and even less about what he will look like in March.
-
All I know is that teams get ranked high like UK and Duke off of pure potential of the players they sign on the dotted line. Yet Diallo bested the best not once but twice and he gets no credit among the KU faithful. Mindboggling to me.
-
I don’t know how much HS BBall you watch but 6’9" players are not that uncommon; however, competent and athletic 6’9" players are not that common. All the top ranked teams in the Country have a few of them. ESPN3 and ESPNU as well as other sports channels show a lot of HS games and I try to catch a few here and there.
-
@DoubleDD said:
…Diallo bested the best not once but twice and he gets no credit among the KU faithful. Mindboggling to me.
Maybe you’re the one getting less credit than you want.
Since before this site existed, I have seen too many posters expect too much too quick too soon from freshman players.
Diallo is a great recruit and I am sure we are all hopeful he will do well. Out of respect for him and for my blood pressure, I prefer “hope” to “expectation”. I will be just as happy as you if he meets your expectations, but maybe less disappointed than you if he doesn’t quite meet them.
Thanks for moving on from the Embiid comparison.
-
I saw about 6 of his HS games from this year being from the east coast a bunch of his games were on TV this year. He played top competition all year and traveled a bunch. I also saw a few from last year, and a few of his AAU games.
His team wasn’t great this year. They had Diallo, Dillard SF signed with California & Yakwe a Top 100ish PF from 2016 class. Their back-court wasn’t the greatest and that hurt the team. Diallo was asked to do a lot, and sometimes he tried to do too much by shooting jump-shots etc which at this point is not his game. But what was the same from what we saw in the All-Star games was his motor, rebounding, defense, & blocking shots.
In the half-court setting Diallo could be neutralized at times because of his need to develop a set of go-to post moves. All things that Self and staff can work with him.
But what he lacks in that area he’d make up in relentless attacking the glass off misses, and anything around the rim he’s pretty skilled at getting baskets. His footwork is great, his mobility & athleticism are off the charts for a 6’9 player. I know we thought Cliff would play bigger than his frame but this guy really can player bigger than 6’9 with his wingspan & athletic ability. He has good hands and with the players we have, he should get plenty of assists close to the basket. You just anchor him down low as much as you can because he’s a magnet getting the ball.
I think that’s important as we try to pencil him to start at the Center position. He’s not a true 5 per-say because he’s not this 6-10-7 foot behemoth but he is skilled enough to guard the 5. There’s no doubt in my mind that he will lead the team in blocks, probably the conference he has great instincts for blocking shots. He will be one of our top rebounders as well so his impact is going to be felt and I don’t think we need to expect him to score a lot to see it. We have shooters and we have go-to guys so we just need a talented big man like he is to come in and do the dirty work.
-
@DoubleDD 1,000% upvote.
-
@JayHawkFanToo Do you realize how many high schools are in the US? There’s somewhere in the neighborhood of 30,000 HS in this country. Very few of them have anybody who is 6-9 or taller. The HS games that ESPN and other networks broadcast involve a fraction of the total number of HS and a lot of those are prep and private schools that recruit kids for the specific purpose of giving them a bigger platform and better competition to show off their skill.
During the past 10 years, the school district I played football and basketball in has gone from 8 to 11 HS, played in 3 state title games in football (5/6A in Texas), won multiple girls basketball state titles, yet I could count on one hand the number of 6-9 or taller players that have played boys basketball in the past 10 years.
It is not common to be that tall and if you are and have any skill, chances are you end up transferring to a private school that can travel and play in national tournaments to help with exposure to scouts during the winter.
-
I don’t know if I would call Cheick the “perfect” big man recruit. But I will say that I think he is the “perfect KU” big man recruit.
He’ll get court time across from Perry. This is Perry’s year. I can’t think of a better guy to put beside Perry.
Perry will be the guy we have for post offense. He will surgically dissect competition with precision, executing the ball through the hole.
Cheick will get his share of points, too… by “hustling and muscling”… it won’t be as pretty as Perry’s points, but it will count as the same points to our totals.
“Mr. Precision and Mr. Brute Force”… what more could we ask for?
-
“Maybe you’re the one getting less credit than you want.”
I guess I’m confused?? Are you taking a shot at me??
If we go back to the beginning of the topic to my original post. I said in so many words I’m getting involved emotionally with this team. No more softball. No more excuses, No more doing superstitious rituals thinking that somehow it’s affecting the game. No this team has everything you want as HC and fan. If this is a poker game I’m I betting them up. If this was a Texas hold’em game then I’m all in.
Your right I might be more disappointed than you if a loss happens, but you know what I’m going to enjoy the ride.
As far as the Embiid comparison? It wasn’t me comparing them. But thanks for the credit anyway.
-
KU does not recruit from the 30,000 HS in the country. KU recruits from the top programs and occasionally from a lesser known program with an outstanding player. The majority if not all of KU recruits are in the top 100-150 players in the country and just about every single one of them was his team’s MVP, All-Conference, many All-State and a few were the State’s POY. The players KU recruit are not necessarily playing in the local leagues but many come from private “basketball academies” that play national competition. No sense in comparing the average KU recruit with average HS player…the average HS player likely ends up playing JuCo at best and only the top 1% of all HS players end up playing Division I basketball. The pool of potential KU prospects is limited and highly competitive. Just my opinion.
-
@JayHawkFanToo What does KU’s recruiting pool have to do with point you’re trying to refute?
You asked me how much HS basketball I watch and tried claiming 6-9 kids are not uncommon. If you’re referring specifically to private and prep schools that focus on basketball, then you’re right that 6-9 kids aren’t that uncommon.
You did not make that specification however, and basketball focused private and prep schools in this country make up a very small percentage of the HS basketball in this country. That is not typical HS basketball across the country. I was 6-4 and grew to 6-5 in HS and played 3 years of varsity HS basketball at the 5A level in Texas which was the largest classification in the state at the time. In those 3 years, I can count on one hand the number of 6-9 or taller players I played against and that was in the state playoffs. 6-9 players are not common in HS basketball and you are deluding yourself if you think what you see on ESPN is typical of HS basketball in this country.
-
Agree with you on HS basketball height.
Most teams I’ve seen in the 5a level seem to have a few players in the 6’5" to 6’6" height. Legitimate 6’7" and 6’8" are less common. 6’9"+ is even fewer.
It gets really crazy when there is a footer on a typical HS team. They pretty much all learn horrible habits because they don’t receive proper coaching, and they get away with murder because they are matching up with guys usually 6 or more inches shorter.
-
First, where would I watch Small time HS basketball games, other than attending the games in person. Essentially all the games shown on the sports networks are from the top private and public leagues and just about every single team has at least couple of really tall players 6’9" or taller.
Yes, the private and prep schools make up a very small percentage of HS basketball in this country but they make 90%+ of the players that end up in elite programs such as KU. Again, essentially all the HS basketball games I watch on TV involve elite programs with players that will be recruited by KU and all have “big” bigs. Look at the top 100 or top 150 players and you will see that probably half come from Catholic Schools alone; look at the current KU recruits, 2 out of 3 (Diallo and Bragg) played for Catholic Schools.
Over 500K kids play HS BBall and out of those 150K + are seniors. Considering the the average Division I program gets between 3-4 new players every year, the combined 351 Division I programs will take roughly 1,000 new players every year or less than 1% of the available pool. Of of those ~1,000 players, KU will recruit roughly from the top 100-150 so you can see where the pool of potential candidates for KU is extremely small and those are the players I choose to watch (when available) the other 99% are never on TV anyway.
BTW and FWIW, according to several sources, the average HS BBall player is now 3"-4" taller than 40 years ago.
Maybe I should have qualified my original post by adding “on TV” after “I don’t know how much HS BBall you watch.” However, I did mentioned in my original post that I was referring to “All the top ranked teams in the Country have a few of them. ESPN3 and ESPNU as well as other sports channels show a lot of HS games and I try to catch a few here and there.” I never implied that “ALL” the programs in the country have them.
So much for that, let’s move on…
