Jayhawk Hints....
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You hit the nail on the head as to why shortly after Temple I wrote “I’m done”. It’s tiresome to see inexperienced yet talented kids leave school early for the league year after year. Self needs to learn I guess how to find those 3-4 year guys like we had when we won a championship and when we nearly won another.
@Nuleafjhawk I was equally pissed when Gooden left. Carmelo doesn’t win a ring if Gooden is there. He shouldn’t have anyways, but that’s a different story.
Of course, people talk about Wisconsin but what they may not realize is while Frank and Sam and Josh and the others were cutting their teeth in preparation for this year they were losing 10 games a season and losing to Mississippi in the first round like they did just two tournaments ago. Their success comes at a cost of some losses and early exits some years.
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What about Ellis? Surely, he isn’t on the fence staying. At least I hope so.
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@wissoxfan83 No one could have guessed that the 08 team would have stayed as long as they did.
Rush, Mario, Robinson, Shady, and Sherron were all 5 star guys. They actually didn’t perform like everything thought they would the first couple years. Wright left early the year before and Rush only came back because he tore his ACL. It was a perfect storm.
Throw in there Jackson who everyone was frustrated with until his senior season, it was seasons of rain before the group molded into a machine.
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@JhawkAlum Excellent points.
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I was under the impression that Rush was the only one ready to bolt the year before, but the ACL changed that.
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Here is the roster for MSU… a nice blend of players from FR to SR…
Not a single OAD on that team. In fact… have they ever had an OAD at MSU?
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No it didn’t hurt Wiggins, but I wasn’t nearly as concerned with where Wiggins ended up in the draft as I was to how KU faired in the Madness. And we crashed and burned in that regard. So I’d rather not have a bunch of And1 mix tape moments for Newman while Perry, Frank, ect. stand around watching him get his. That’s obviously not how KU succeeds.
So at what point do we (Self and Co.) rethink the whole OAD and KU?? Something seriously has to give. Either a change up in the Offense/Defense systems we run. Either more emphasis on getting the right guys (H/L guys) and not just the best guys out there. Or we scrape the OAD recruitment and get back to the TwoAD and ThreeAD guys.
Lets face it, OAD era hasn’t panned out for us. Xavier era gave us the UNI, Ali’s moment, and time to enjoy spring break without KU basketball to watch. Selby’s time here got us an Elite 8 upset by VCU. Wiggins and Embiid gave us Stanford and another first weekend send off. And then this past season the Oubre and Alexander experiment gave us all the embarrassment of lil brother WSU bitch slapping us. (Note: Ben is NOT a OAD, he is a TwoAD. He and Jamari spent a year “red shirting” prior to his breakout)
Professional teams don’t just go after the best guys in the draft, they usually try to get the guys that they need and the ones that fit their systems. So why does KU try to get every recruit 1-20?? Do they all fit our systems? Or are we under the impression they can all run our systems because they’re so talented??
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I used to think that the best strategy was for us to recruit the guys just below the OADs, and then sprinkle perhaps a couple of OADs, too.
Not so sure now. It just doesn’t seem like you can develop the true “team concept” when you have a couple of players just biding their time waiting for draft day.
I really enjoyed Wigs. We didn’t use him the right way but he did what he could do to blend in. He still couldn’t blend in. The TV cameras and the media circus didn’t help our team. And when it came down to play, he was given a different set of rules with Self. Our other players would stand around when Wigs got the ball so it was 1 on 5 with Wigs asked to push it to the rim.
We should have been playing offense like ND did. Wigs drive the ball and feed another slasher cutting to the rim at a different angle. It was really fun watching ND play. If the officiating had been fair on the play of the 5s, they would be a FF team.
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I keep blasting our coaches for not developing players well enough (or fast enough).
Maybe they just can’t keep up with the media’s perception of where the players are. Like I said earlier… Kelly’s first decent game and the media had him gone. Kelly has progressed nicely this year, but anyone think he is ready for the NBA?
***I’m thinking I (and many of you) need to sign up for comments on some of these sites and BLAST the writers who are so quick to call Kansas freshmen gone to the league.
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Dawson was an All-American but at 6"6 PF didn’t ever have a position in the NBA without a jump-shot so he made it to his Sr season with injuries.
Wonder how much Harris made this team better having to sit and play on the scout team. We’ve all seen that gunner glad he left from West Virginia.
Trice had to wait his turn behind Appling & Harris who was a 2AD. His improvement could not be projected like he is playing now. He taught enough for Nairn to take over next year minus the jump-shot.
Valentine & Costello top 100 kids. Just have continued to get better and better.
Forbes was a nice waiver transfer who can shoot.
He got 5 star PF Davis for next year and Sharpshooting Mcquaid. Izzo gets his fair share of talent.
He could be even better next year.
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I think Gary Harris a couple of years back at MSU? I might be wrong.
Magic was a 2 and done, a rarity in those days for sure. Too bad he didn’t stick around.
In fact it’s interesting to think about the epic battles of the 70’s and 80’s and which wouldn’t have taken place if it was in 2015. Certainly Larry-Magic wouldn’t have happened. MJ, Sam, and James against Patrick and his fellow brawlers may not have, although Patrick was a freshman that year I guess.
Houston-Louisville in '83 or '84, what a show those teams put on with experienced players!
My senior year at KU probably wouldn’t have been very magical without Danny around in 1988.
@Kip_McSmithers I really don’t hold any warm feelings for Wiggins. He did nothing wrong, but having him on that team while we all knew he was going to be gone meant I didn’t connect with him. I’ve connected with guys who stick around, even if they’re relative stiffs. I will always remember Jamari fondly because of what he’s done for the team. Wiggins, thanks for stopping by but you did nothing for me personally.
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We had what… 4 McDs AAs? Okay… one was not eligible for March. Shouldn’t we have had enough talent to at least make it to the Sweet 16?
Gosh… how many of our players were Top 100? All maybe?
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your right but we got matched up against our step brother that wanted to prove he was better. It’s like MJ’s kids playing him 1 on 1 and their like just one time let me beat Mike and you know what it happened.
Injury to Ellis certainly didn’t help. You go from what 20pts to 11 post injury is hard to compensate for.
Young team, again what top 10 youngest team again in D1. That should change if the pieces stick.
We underachieved we all know it, we see what the teams that survived have done to make it this far. Self definitely has to take this year and improve everything
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I’m glad we didn’t play ND… they would have smoked us like a cheap cigar!
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I guess I challenge our ability to coach toughness.
I was watching the MSU/UL game yesterday… it was in the second half and Louisville had the lead, and many would have thought they would be favored to get the win. I had little doubt that MSU would pull it out. They thrive on just staying close in a game and then hammering down at the end, closing out the right way.
Two guys, Costello and Schilling, had fouled out and they stuck it to Louisville in OT!
Those guys are tough and I can’t wait for their game with rat face!
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I agree I don’t think our best game with this years squad would have come close against them. They played the perfect game to beat Kentucky and still lost, how crazy is that crap. Their guard play would have negated our advantage which they almost pulled off on Kentucky with an entire team bigger than them.
I thought the toughness was brought back to KU after the Boot camp and marine experience. And that seemed to work for a part of the season. We have close gritty wins. But something changed, we lost the identity of the team, got banged up and tired out from the grind and bailed out because of it.
@wissoxfan83
Harris was last year. A 5-star player that personified Izzo’s traits. Maybe Bragg will become the 2 or 3AD type of Self player that personifies him.
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I think the key to beating Kentucky is to have a 5 that will not get pushed back when Towns gets the ball in the low post.
I hope Frank can weather that storm. I hope he practices drawing charges on those plays when Towns lowers his body and pushes back.
Come on, Badgers!
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“We have close gritty wins. But something changed, we lost the identity of the team, got banged up and tired out from the grind and bailed out because of it.”
I think that sums up our year pretty well.
We should get stronger when we get banged up, not weaker. That’s when the toughness goes into effect. That is hallmark Izzo. He always has to survive injuries playing in the Big 10. That conference is a heck of a lot rougher play than the Big 12. Huggy is the only guy in our league that plays a version of Big 10 basketball… and he had a small team this year.
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I swiped this from the MSU Spartan Basketball site:
"MSU’s M.A.S.H. Unit Michigan State has dealt with injury issues for much of the season. Freshman Javon Bess underwent surgery in late October on a broken bone in his right foot. After missing the first 10 games, he made his debut against Eastern Michigan. He played in the next 12 games but has since been ruled out for the remainder of the season. Sophomore Alvin Ellis III suffered a severe sprained right ankle after just three minutes against Navy and did not return to action until playing five minutes against Notre Dame. Junior Bryn Forbes did not miss any time, but he played with a brace on his left (non-shooting) hand while recovering from a broken bone for the first 10 games. Senior Branden Dawson missed MSU’s game vs. Santa Clara with the flu, which also limited his minutes at the Orlando Classic. Against Eastern Michigan, he suffered a wrist injury that kept him out of action for two games. In the home finale vs. Purdue, Dawson took an elbow to the face and was limited to just nine minutes against the Boilermakers, and missed the following game at Indiana. In total, MSU has lost 29 games due to illness and injury for its rotation players. "
MSU has lost 29 games due to illness and injury for its rotation players.
Branden Dawson suffered a stable, non-displaced fracture on his left wrist after taking a hard fall in the Dec. 17 contest vs. Eastern Michigan.
So THEY are in the Final Four while we’ve been making injury excuses for two weeks because we couldn’t make it to the Sweet 16.
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Sounds like a football teams injury report. Notice Trice & Valentine absent from the injury reports. Their fools gold 3’s all year made almost as many as we made as a team. Izzo blended in 3 point gunning (almost 200 more attempts) than KU on the year with enough inside play, plus toughness.
Having Ellis on 1 1/2 legs did effect things. We might not think Cliff was a big deal but it was too not having him. He messed the whole depth up. Lucas had to play 30 minutes a game with 3 injuries. No excuses but the injury bug has hit us at the worst of times now twice.
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Ahhh, nice to see you all talking about Izzo teams and their toughness factor…
My first thought on this 6’11 270 banger was an unimpressive statline on production, until it hit me Self is doing nothing but trying to simple brawn+height in the paint, NOT magically turning this kid into Okafor. Nope, this is purely about adding size alone…
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@drgnslayr Exactly. But we loaded up with 5 star talent then also. The difference was they under performed and couldn’t go high in the draft. It’s impossible to actually predict if they will actually leave.
If Cliff didn’t get into NCAA trouble, he could have fallen right into the mold that under performed but become critical to a final four run later.
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@JhawkAlum Speaking of Cliff, is there really no news on him? My assumption is that it is just a matter of days until he declares for the NBA now that Turner and other kids have announced.
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@joeloveshawks I don’t think Cliff has any other option. Do you?
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I read Coach Self’s comments and got the impression that he was referring to the guys that he didn’t specifically mention as those that might leave. Seemed like he was being hopeful but also maybe trying to temper expectations? I just don’t see how Wayne and Perry could possibly leave at this point.
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I’m certianly hoping that what Self was referring to was the players we all think should return. But we’ve been in the dark plenty of years about the status of players. And for the first time Self seems to be playing it pretty bluntly about people leaving. Maybe it’s the years of build up that his numb to the roster attrition but man it’s hard to see the true meaning of what he was saying and not speculate.
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“… still think he meant oubre and Cliff are the reality, they weren’t mentioned, Perry either.”
Hope you are right!
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“Speaking of Cliff, is there really no news on him? My assumption is that it is just a matter of days until he declares for the NBA…”
He is probably shopping for an agent.
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Gary Harris was a Sophomore when he declared. My wife and I are KU fans first, Michigan State fans second. She was a huge Magic fan back in the day.
Doesn’t it suck to be the only team from the “Champions Classic” not playing this weekend??
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Yes… it feels like they need to rename the tournament, “Champions Classic + KU”
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@drgnslayr My impression when I read the quote was that the guys he didn’t mention…Oubre and Alexander…might be the ones he was referring to. I didn’t think of Greene…so I suppose that is a possibility also. But…I think we read too much into comments…He most likely was referencing some of the guys that could improve, not necessarily all. Let’s face it…odds are that Oubre goes and probably Alexander also. That could have been all he meant.
