The quick yank
-
@MoonwalkMafia Your last sentence pretty much summarizes the polls. Yeah it’s pretty funny seeing OSU at their rank having played…nobody. It’s Smart mania. The media loves him and are rewarding OSU for Smart. OSU beats a non-ranked team and they climb by default of top teams losing, ie. KU.
Every year in the B12, critics, haters, and the like are dying to see KU get knocked off as conference champs. They keep promoting a B12 team to beat KU. Last year it was OSU. Two year ago, it was Baylor, and this year it’s OSU again. I’d even throw ISU in the mix too. It’s about the media hype.
-
“Every year in the B12, critics, haters, and the like are dying to see KU get knocked off as conference champs.”
@truehawk93 - Absolutely! And the main reason they want KU to lose isn’t just a dislike for KU… if we are talking about east coast media… it is about making the B12 irrelevant! The B12 is (for the most part) irrelevant outside of the Midwest UNTIL you factor in this dominant conference streak! It is our streak that has really raised the stock of Kansas basketball beyond the Midwest.
This is why I continue to bring up just what a big deal it is for Kansas basketball to win 9 B12 titles in a row. Because of this dominance, it is impossible to overlook KU nationally. Our NC from 2008 has largely been forgotten (nationally-speaking)… but our 9 in a row is active, and can’t be denied or shoved in the shadows. It is the reason why I have Bill Self down as the best coach ever at Kansas!
And it is because of this dominance that we need to maintain our streak and keep it going!
I seriously doubt Bill Self would consider leaving Kansas as long as this streak is alive. I seriously doubt he would abandon a legendary record like that just for more money and a new challenge. Bill Self is B12 basketball. It runs through his blood, both as a player and as a coach.
-
@drgnslayr - ok, your quote: “Our NC from 2008 has largely been forgotten (nationally-speaking)… but our 9 in a row is active, and can’t be denied or shoved in the shadows. It is the reason why I have Bill Self down as the best coach ever at Kansas!”
Question: Would you trade the 9 league championships … all of them … for one more national title? Say in 2010-11?
I would. No doubt.
Tell me this: How many league titles has coach K won? Or Izzo? Or Roy? Or Calhoun? Or Knight? How many national titles?
One thing is for certain, when you put a coach on the list and he hasn’t won a national title, you know it.
What was a better season, 1988 or 2005, or 2006, or 2007?
Would you take the package deal of a 2013-14 title and a trip to the NIT the following season?
I would.
I admit, I wouldn’t want to just get shut out of league titles. The 9 straight titles demonstrates dominance. But it demonstrates dominance in a generally inferior conference. We don’t have any other generally top 15 programs in the Big 12.
The true measure is NCAA titles. Unfortunately, we’ve been at least one, maybe two, short of what we should have had in the last 25 years.
A question, another way, how empty would coach Self’s coaching resume be without the 2008 title?
-
@HighEliteMajor I’m right there with you. I would trade the last nine conference titles in the row for another national title.
Can anybody remember who won the Pac-12 last year? Or the Big 10? How about the ACC? SEC? Big East?
What about two years ago? Can anybody name the conference champs for any of those conferences from two seasons ago? Without looking, I would guess Washington, Ohio State, Miami, Florida and Louisville from last year and Oregon, Michigan State, Duke, Kentucky and Syracuse two years ago.
Maybe I will post the answers tomorrow if I have time to look it up.
Regardless, I could name the last couple dozen national champs without looking (probably more) - Louisville, Kentucky, UConn, Duke, North Carolina, Kansas, Florida, Florida, North Carolina, UConn, Syracuse, Maryland, Duke, Michigan State, UConn, Kentucky, Arizona, Kentucky, UCLA, Arkansas, North Carolina, Duke, Duke, UNLV, Michigan, Kansas, Indiana, Louisville (I could keep going, but you get the point).
-
I wouldn’t trade 9 conference titles for a NC… especially if I’m a coach who already owns a NC.
I’d rather have 9 conf titles and 1 NC instead of no conf titles and 2 NCs.
I made this point about a month ago. If you look back in recent history UCONN has won more NCs than KU… but no way are they considered in that top tier of elite. Heck… even though UCLA has won a boatload of NCs… they aren’t in the current top elite tier either.
KU after '88 was not in that top tier elite. That NC helped us, but it wasn’t enough. We didn’t own our league. We got hot for 6 games. In my lifetime, KU has never been in that very top tier of say 4 teams until now. We weren’t nailing the best recruits or being perceived as one of the very best.
We could have a bad decade now (or even less) and get bumped from this status. It’s happened before to teams like UCLA. But as long as we are winning our conference and making some noise in March, we don’t have to win another NC in the next few years to guarantee we maintain our status.
History may be kind more to the NC holders… but current prestige has a lot to do with today. Winning 9 in a row and still working on adding to it keeps our success current.
I’m not saying NCs are not important… I’m just making a point about how important this conference winning streak is.
And we wouldn’t be currently considered in that top tier without it! UCONN proves that.
If we hadn’t won in '08, I’m not sure, but I’m thinking we wouldn’t be considered in that top tier without it either. I’m not contradicting myself… I’m illustrating how important these achievements are together. The B12 does own some basketball status, and owning the league for a decade spells out more about dominance than going on a 6-game winning streak (NC) in any one year.
I don’t buy the idea that NCAA titles alone explain status. Why would UCLA have ever fallen?
No doubt, CS’s resume is largely enhanced with his '08 victory. To me, I’m more impressed with his 9 conf B12 titles. Gregg Marshall at WSU was 2 games away from matching CS. BTW: I like Marshall. But would you put him on Self’s level just because they got hot for 6 games? Could Marshall win 9 straight conf titles in the B12? I doubt it… and I doubt there is a single college coach in America who could do it besides Self.
That’s why I put Self at the top of my list for KU’s best coach of all times. I can’t say I would do that if he had no NCs… but he has one and he owns the B12… something no other KU coach has ever done.
Let me flip the table here… Would you prefer CS has two NCs and no conf titles? Do you think we would have our current top tier elite status if that was the case? Why would we be preferred over UCONN?
-
I would not trade the conference championships for one NC. The conference championships stand for dominance in the league and consistent national prominence year after year. HEM, no question that without the 2008 NC (and to a lesser extent the 2012 runner up) we would look at things a lot differently. We have had way more than our share of early outs in the tournament. Without those 2 accomplishments, we would look at Self’s accomplishments in the regular season a lot differently.
-
@MoonwalkMafia My thoughts exactly. WTF. Im cool with KU being near where they are but some of those “top 10” teams. smh. Their SOS just plain sucks compared to KU’s
-
@drgnslayr Solid, just solid.
-
National championships are a result of good play and a lot of luck during a couple of crazy weeks at the end of the season. Conference titles are an indicator of a season long excellence and playing conference games in your opponent court rather than (mostly) neutral sites.
The 9 conference titles and season long success have done more to enhance KU’s standing than the national title in '08 which was the icing on an otherwise very rich cake.
-
A NC or 9 straight conference titles. Both are impressive. Both have contributed to the current elite status that KU enjoys.
But, I think there’s a third thing to consider when trying to determine what’s done most for KU’s prestige.
There can only be one NC each year. Very rare, but one of 67 teams does it each year.
9 straight conference titles is pretty hard to replicate, especially when it’s one of the major conferences and especially in a period where teams turnover talent within a year or two. 65 teams (in the major conferences) could do it, but only one has.
And the other is, averaging 30+ wins per season for a decade. Any div. 1 team could do it, but none have. I haven’t crunched the numbers, but I don’t think it’s ever been done. KU had the most dominant decade based on winning percentages.
When a team wins at that rate, the top talent has to pay attention. And so does he media.
-
I dont know if i would trade all 9 for 1 more NC. Maybe for 2 NCs.
However, i would trade the streak and half the conf titles for one more NC.
Ive said this before. There are three years that were ‘ours’ and we missed. 1997, 2003, 2011.
I would give up the streak for one of those years. All 9 for two of those.
Seriously hoping the universe makes up for those misses by overcompensating in the next few years.
-
@drgnslayr, thank you! I feel much less alone knowing we feel the same way.
My point of view is a bit selfish: too much emphasis on the NCAAs and the whole season becomes a preseason.
I enjoy the season much more thinking that pre-conference is a growing period and that Conference season gives us 18 games to play. Wins mean more and losses mean less. No worries about seeds and brackets until February.
Granted, make us preseason #1 next year and I may think differently, but right now I’m trying to take the season a game at a time.
-
@ParisHawk @drgnslayr @FarSideHawk @bskeet @HighEliteMajor @JayHawkFanToo @Hawk8086
I love the streak. I think it’s something that is really cool. I think it’s an awesome indicator of consistency. But to be honest, the reason I’d trade the nine conference titles for one more national title is because that’s what people remember.
I will remember that 2008 title for the rest of my life. I will remember where I was, how it felt, everything about that night. I don’t remember anything about KU winning conference titles. I couldn’t tell you where I was when they clinched the 2009 conference title, or the 2006 title, or whatever.
I think the streak actually has a downside, though. The streak has a life of its own, and, subconsciously, I think trying to protect the streak has cost us in the past. To win a conference title, you have to make sure you have the highest possible floor (worst case scenario) on any given night. That may mean going away from the highest possible ceiling (potential) to make sure that you don’t fumble away a game or two that could cost you the title.
Take 2009 for instance. The best possible ceiling for that particular team was to give the new freshman (Morris twins, Taylor, Releford) as many minutes as possible to get them ready for a potential run in March. Those four guys, plus Collins and Aldrich would have made for an interesting run. Maybe they still top out by getting knocked out by Michigan State in the Sweet 16. But maybe they go a little deeper. Hard to say. Releford wasn’t the player that he eventually became, obviously. Nor were the Morris twins. But if they had become more substantial players within that season, is that an Elite 8 team? Final Four? Is the 2010 team a title team with that group, plus Xavier Henry?
But because of the streak, maybe taking three more conference losses to try and peak in March isn’t really an option. As I said in a different article, we have competing priorities and interests here. Is it better for Self to try and win 10 more conference titles in a row, or for him to risk the streak in the interests of having the best six games in March he possibly can.
January and February are about high floors. March is about having a high ceiling. You can’t always build for both.
-
@bskeet One of 351 teams does it each year, not just one of 67. You have to get there first. And we’ve gotten there 24 times in a row, way more than any other school currently. Streaks matter, both conference championships and NCAA appearances, when we’re talking about dominance. They draw attention and provide prestige. Current streaks of dominance are fantastic. Of course we’d all like another national championship, but sustained excellence cannot be argued with.
-
I am of the opinion that CS will not leave Kansas as long as that streak is alive. It may even be the #1 factor for keeping him here. It’s just an opinion based on nothing in particular.
CS has mentioned before about his feelings for the Midwest, and how he is truly a “Midwesterner.” He’s proud to be from the Midwest, and we are proud to call him one of our own. He doesn’t hide his heritage, like some from here who go on to fame. I’ve always liked that about him, and respect the fact that he is proud to be from the bread basket of America. It seems his basketball goals are tilted toward emphasizing dominance in the Midwest and the B12. It wouldn’t surprise me if he likes to own some bragging rights in Oklahoma, too.
Someone above said it best… that a NC is icing on the cake. I like that way of thinking about it. I know I’m focused on us winning #10 first. Every year we pile on to that streak gives it more power in the world of college basketball… with recruits… even east coast media.
Our streak tells the world that we are the most-dominant team in America! The B12 can hold their own against any conference, and we’ve owned it for almost a decade! What other team in America can say they own their highly-respected conference?
-
To determine which title(s) is/are more important, we need to look at the process in context.
While the '88 title was nice and brought some attention to the program, the ensuing successful years under Coach Williams did a lot more to enhance the reputation of the program. Let’s face it, in '88 KU was #6 seed and not even close to the best team, before or after the tournament, and only a magical run resulted in the final win and Championship. Other years when KU had a dominant team, a couple of bad breaks prevented a positive final outcome. One less three by Syracuse or Michigan, to name a few, and we might have more banners to hang at AFH.
March Madness is exactly that, 6 games that not always determine which is the best team. A conference title, on the other hand, it is better indicator of how good the team is over an extended period. Also, a conference title is good (but not definitive) indicator of how good of a run the team will likely in post season. Not winning the conference also tends to be a precursor to a shorter run in the big dance. Coach Self always says the main goal at the beginning of the season is to win the conference as it is the better indicator of how well the team will do in March. I agree.
-
Oh boy. 10 Conference championships vs 1 NC? EASY: Take the NC. But the whole premise is flawed logic: We are in a weak basketball conference. It almost takes care of itself that if we are good enough to win the NC some year, we should be the top 1 or 2 teams in the BigXII that same year, right?
The flawed logic is posing the hypothetical question AS IF the two were mutually exclusive.
1 more time: What is the ultimate dream for a college team and its coach at the start of the season? What is the absolute best season they could possibly have? --> Win the Natl Championship.
A 2nd time for those still not sold: How did ya feel when KU won the BigXII in 2006, but was a 1st round Tourney bounce by a killer “B”? Same thing in 2005, won the conf, but 1st round Tourney exit like Mizzou’s “NorfolkState” infamy…
A 3rd time for those “beginner” Jayhawks in our midst, as we want to include all levels of Jayhawk fandom: Imagine the Chiefs or Broncos: Is their goal to “win the conference” or “win the SuperBowl”.
A 4th time for my wide-as-the-fat-lady net did not capture above: What would the players say? Think about those 2008 Champ players, who will ALWAYS have that piece of Jayhawk immortality. They are permanently part of Jayhawk lore of the highest order. Now think about the 2012 team that I loved (Tyshawn+TRob) that fell short in the National Champ game, or think about the '03 squad that blew it on the FT line vs. Syracuse…and also think about Memphis in 08…Your mind just went to the fact that they fell short…they almost did it, but DIDNT. Their legacy is defined by that. As smooth and beautiful as Nick Collison’s game was at KU, and still is to this day, that loss IS PART of his legacy. He will carry it around with him forever, as will Tyshawn, TRob, Withey, EJ, KYo, Teahan, and Releford. IF YOU ASK THE PLAYERS THEMSELVES, they want the National Championship.
Russell Robinson actually set a “goal” for himself senior year to ‘win the National Championship’. There was a story about it early in that 07-08 season. I have shed many, many tears of joy for him (& that team) because his (&my) dream of a NC actually came true!
Now consider another Robinson (Thomas), bent at the waist, sobbing with Tyshawn trying to console him, as the streamers and confetti was raining down for Kentucky’s big win. How do you think the NC stacked up vs. the Conf. championship that he had won 3 weeks before? Which was the bigger, more lasting emotion?
Someone mentioned Roy’s years. Ok, great coach, gave it his all for 15yrs, but everybody knowledgeable (& old enough) will ruefully, wistfully, think of “that '97 team” and the “'03 team” that could have won it ALL. Tell me Roy’s legacy at KU is not defined, partially, by the phrase “couldnt win the big one”. Just like Marty Schottenheimer’s was at both KC and SanDiego.
Yes, we’ve all heard Self talk about winning the conference: But you also heard straight from his mouth that the ultimate goal is to make the Final4. Recall his next statement that “now, once you make the Final 4, anything can happen”, “but that’s about as good as you can hope for”. Notice how all that takes place AFTER the Conference season and conference Tourney. So there you have it from Head Horse’s mouth.
For the umpteenth time, now: We had the overall #1 seed, had the “STEPPING STONE” Conf. championship already in the bag…so, ohhhh what a slap in the face it was for the Morris/ReedHawks to get bounced by VCU. You cannot tell a serious Jayhawk basketball fan that a Conf Championship alone is anything but a mere stepping stone, or as Self uses it: a competetive yardstick by which to judge a given year’s team, that’s all. It is hard to win a conf. championship, so it does make a statement about your team.
Now consider Purple: They got a share of the Conf. Championship, and they celebrated BIG time. The statement that it made about their team was that Frank left Brucie an entire experienced team + bench, nothing more. But in the midst of their “Big shining moment”, their coach was talking about the officiating in Ames, IA…(Some programs aspire to win the Conf. Championship just to knock KU off…while other programs eye a bigger prize.)
-
@ralster .
How do you figure we are in weak conference? In the last few years, the Big 12 Conference has been consistently ranked in the top 3; currently the Big 12 is ranked #3 out of 33 conferences by Jeff Sagarin and 40% of its teams are ranked in the top 20. I don’t believe any other conference has that high of a percentage.
I am not saying that Coach Self’s objective is just to win the Conference; it is only the first and most immediate goal and achieving it places you in a good position for a March run. Not winning the Conference lowers your seeding and takes away the advantage of a higher seed playing close to home and lower ranked teams. A Conference title and a higher seed most definitely give you and advantage in March…remember the UCLA game in California or the Purdue game in Omaha to name the first ones that come to mind? Seeding and location made a big difference in those outcomes, wouldn’t you agree?
-
@ralster - good read on your last post.
But I do have some logical issues with it. In my comparisons on here I took them from the perspective of the coach and not the players. I’m positive all D1 players would rather have a NC than a Conf C… of course they would. To make any type of comparison at the player level you’d have to give players 9 consecutive years of eligibility to make the comparison. It’s still a different ball of wax, because players tend to just think about their own interests… and many probably would trade their 9 consecutive years of CC for one NC. But coaches look out for the interest of the universities they represent, too, as well as their own resume.
Let me put it this way… If you were picking a new head coach, would you pick one who owned a 9-consecutive league championship streak in one of the top D1 leagues over a coach who didn’t show league dominance but went on a 6-game hot streak to win a NC?
So back when we hired Bill Self, you would have preferred we hire Nolan Richardson? And Self didn’t even own a streak like this back then. But Richardson owned a NC. Richardson only ever won 2 SEC titles, same as Self in the B10, but Self did it in 3 years, Richardson took 17 years in the SEC to win only 2 SEC titles. But his NC trumps everything?
You don’t have to mention all the heartache we have suffered in March. All of us feel it, and all of us ache for national hardware.
CCs are stepping stones for NCs. But NCs don’t come around every day, even for the best teams and programs. NCs can only be described as “icing on the cake” and Bill Self will tell you the same thing. Of course he wants a big taste of the icing, who doesn’t?
But when you pile up 9 consecutive CCs in a conf like the B12, you have earned respect from everyone. That achievement spells out dominance. One NC doesn’t spell out dominance, it spells out a hot streak, usually with big programs because they have the most depth and experience. Our '88 champ team will never be known for dominance beyond those last games. Heck, we suffered 11 losses that year!
I guess you can just look at our '88 team and that says it all concerning which achievement establishes dominance.
-
Seriously?!? Some of you guys would rather trade all 9 conference championships for ONE more National Championship?
You do know that means that for 9 consecutive years, someone else was better than us in OUR conference? For nine straight years, someone else was better than us during 40% of the season. So that we could say we were the best during 15% of two seasons? That math doesn’t add up to me.
By the way, a NC in a single elimination tournament doesn’t mean you were the best, it just may mean you were the luckiest. And if we can’t even win in the B12 (not the B1G or the ACC, but the B12) for nine consecutive years, that’s what people will say about us: That we were lucky. Isn’t that what we say about the '88 team? “Danny and the Miracles?” Or they will say that we were ok most of the time and great a minimal amount of time.
A little thought experiment: You all are betting the house that by developing our bench more during the conference part of the season, or maybe the whole season, that that automatically equals ONE additional National Championship. Well let’s say that it doesn’t. What happens if we lose all 9 CCs by playing it your way and we still don’t win one more glorious NC. What if we lose in '08 but win in another year? Is Bill Self still a Hall of Fame coach? Is our legacy still as great? Do you still love your Jayhawks just as much? Let’s say we lose three CCs but miss a tourney invite one year and still only one NC the past 9 years? Are you still happy Bill Self tried it your way?
And what’s this stuff about “all anybody talks about are NCs?” Who are you talking about? The media? Fans from other programs? Who cares?!? I love our streaks. I love our 30+ win seasons. I love dominating the B12 year after year. (And our conference really isn’t that shabby. We consistently send anywhere of 4-6 teams to the tourney every year. After tonight we might have FIVE teams ranked in the top 25 with OSU also contending for a championship.) My love for KU Basketball is NOT dependent on what other people say about us. Sure, I remember everything about the night when we won it all in 2008, but I also remember Jeff Withey, Thomas Robinson, the Morris twins, Tyshawn, BMac, Collins, Aldrich, the entire 2008 team, and many, many, MANY great games that they won for us. I wouldn’t trade it all in for one more amazing night.
-
Have been reluctant to post on this thread, but IMO, no way we trade 9, 8, or even 7 conf championships for one NC. It’s oft said that every man has his price … & mine is much more exorbitant due to plain & simple, extremely selfish, outright unadulterated, B!@ Conference greed!..bare minimum-FIVE!..Then we can sit down & negotiate further.
@globaljaybird,,,,,,,,,GO HAWKS!
-
So much for a weak conference. Texas, the number 6 or 7 team in the Big 12 conference just beat UNC the number 1 or 2 team in the ACC… at the Dean dome.
winning the Big 12 conference is going to be tough as it is becoming pretty dang competitive.
-
@JayHawkFanToo - There are two gigantic pet peeves of mine.
-
People who text and drive.
-
College basketball players who can’t shoot free throws.
I didn’t see anyone texting and driving during that game last night, but WOW, there was some crappy FT shooting. It’s incredible to me that in a game decided by three points, one team misses 13 free throws and the other misses 23. Seriously? I doubt if there’s any evidence to support this, but my guess is that this year’s National Champion will be among the top 10 or so in FT shooting percentage.
-
-
@nuleafjhawk . Agreed on both points. Free throws are exactly that FREE, and yet players fail to take advantage. It is the one skill that can be improved with proper training as it does not require athletic ability, just good technique, muscle memory and concentration, and they can all be improved with practice.
With the new contact rules, free throws are becoming a lot more important and might decide the championship.
-
This thread suggests that we need a poll feature on the site:
Would you trade our 9 Big 12 Conference Championships for one more NC?
- Yes
- No
-
If we didn’t win those 9 Conference Championships, the chance of winning a NC would be pretty slim. Those 9 Championship means were we good enough to contest for the NC, not winning the conference means we were not, i.e. without one, you likely don’t have the other.
I would trade 2 or 3, maybe even 4 conference tittles for NC but now way I give up all 9 for 1 NC.
I always ask my friends that question why KU does no have more titles, would rather have a team that is consistently in the top 10 and regularly wins 30 games per year, or a team that has a magical season once or twice every twenty years and it is middle of the pack the rest of time, like Arkansas, Houston, Memphis, Villanova, UNC State, Buttler? The answer is almost always that continuous success, even without a NC is better.
