Post-game Roundup: KU vs Florida
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####CJOnline – Jesse Newell: Turnovers haunt KU in 67-61 loss to Florida####
GAINESVILLE, Fla. — The No. 13 Kansas men’s basketball team couldn’t recover from a nightmarish first half, falling 67-61 to No. 19 Florida on Tuesday at the Stephen C. O’Connell Center.
####Kansas City Star – Rustin Dodd: Florida beats Kansas 67-61, the Jayhawks’ third loss in four games####
On a night when Kansas coach Bill Self started four freshmen for the first time in KU’s long and storied history, the young Jayhawks took their lumps against a veteran Florida team.
####KU Sports: Analysis and Live Blog####
By Matt Tait — Gainesville, Fla. — In hopes of snapping out of a funk that had contributed to losses in two of its past three games, the Kansas University men’s basketball team sent four freshman to the floor to start Tuesday’s game at Florida. It’s believed that it marked …
####KUSports Column: Wiggins makes headway, now needs help####
Even when athletes looks desperately lost, way overmatched, getting worse by the second, it’s tough to count them out when they have the best player on their side and ample time remains on the clock.
####KUSports: Florida coach Billy Donovan says KU ‘ceiling’ may be highest in country####
GAINESVILLE, FLA. — The number of areas in which Florida’s basketball team outdid visiting Kansas University during a 67-61 UF victory on Tuesday at the O’Connell Center reached double digits
####KUSports: Road unkind thus far####
GAINESVILLE, FLA. — Life on the road hasn’t been rosy for Kansas University’s basketball team this nonconference season.
####CJOnline Live Blog Chat Log####
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Didn’t get home until the second half… My takeaways from the second:
#####The obvious:##### Wiggins’ offensive greatness was pretty apparent down the stretch, and if he goes after it, he could be unstoppable.
#####The other positives:##### Brannen Greene is out of the doghouse and coming to a theatre near you soon. Jam Tray got more run and played with heart and purpose, I thought.
#####A moment that made me think:##### Saw Self yell at Greene for apparently not making a particular cut.
#####The takeaway:##### Sometimes this team looks like its never played against a zone before. I’ve mentioned before that the ball rotation and skip passes, and entry passes and big man flash to the other block or high post were all slow, and that was prevalent again tonight and cost us dearly. But I also noticed tonight that the guys off the ball just don’t know how to space the floor to get open against the zone. Like the wings aren’t leaking toward the corner when the zone is collapsing on penetration, so the kick isn’t there because the angle isn’t there.
I thought Greene was one of the few players (other than Wiggins’ arsenal and maybe Jam Tray’s hustle) that seemed to have any clue how to take what the defense gives you to get a bucket down the stretch. Yelling at him for not making a particular cut (and maybe I read him wrong, but let’s just assume that’s right) seems a little silly.
Maybe Self is struggling to teach these kids how to play intuitively, spacing the floor, when a shot is a good shot, and when it’s bad, etc… What we might be seeing is an X’s and O’s guy demanding execution of plays from guys, for what? Should we be focusing on fundamentals first / play execution second?
Would this loss have been avoidable if we were reenforcing fundamentals that resonate with the larger body of basketball knowledge that these kids have already accrued, rather than learning Self’s playbook which may be confusing them? Would they be able to speed it up if perfecting Self-ball and fear of the Self-hook weren’t in their heads?
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Don’t know approx, but their hustle was much better exhibited by the number of floor burns, yet their passing was just nasty, just horrid. Mason got one picked to Embid about the 3-4 minute mark by a guard-he could’ve thrown it 3 feet higher & Joel would’ve snatched it. Fundamentals should be priority # 1 after this unadulterated lackluster passing exhibit.
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Approx, consider yourself lucky to have missed the first half.
I’ve been concerned since the Duke game that Self seems to be content to score entirely through the point guard spot. In the past, that was a good strategy up until, oh, about 2 minutes of last season, but this year, our PGs are the least effective scorers on the floor. If the PGs aren’t CREATING scoring opportunities for the studs, that’s going to be a huge problem-- we’ll be only as good as the worst players on the floor. I love Mason’s attack dog mentality, but his primary job has to be to get the big dogs (Wigs, Ellis and Embiid) involved. Tharpe just needs to pull his head out of his rear and do the same thing.
I’m increasingly becoming less enamored with Tharpe and Mason on the floor at the same time. Selden was terrible tonight, but Tharpe and Mason together offer nothing that one of them alone already does.
Sensing some bad mojo with team chemistry. It’s hard to believe we’ll have two years in a row without an alpha dog. Greene is one, but has some issues, so it will be interesting to see what happens with him and White.
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I’ve been resisting joining this site, but after this loss (and the fact that I’m just not willing to get a facebook page) I had to give in.
My take is that Self finally gave Greene a chance. Out of necessity more than anything, but it made me think. I’m not saying that Selden isn’t a great player or going to be a great player as the season progresses, but right now Greene seems to be the better option. He’s a pure shooter, he’s about the same size as Selden, and he simply has more to offer. I haven’t seen anything spectacular from Selden defensively, and at the rate we’re going I don’t think it hurts to play Greene over him.
Secondly, I’m flat out done with Tarick Black. He’s just awful. I will take Embiid starting over him, and I’d take it a step further by saying that Traylor should be the first off the bench, and honestly I like what I’ve seen from Lucas enough that I’d prefer seeing him over Black.
Third, I love Frank Mason, don’t get me wrong. But he’s still a freshman. What he has that Tharpe lacks is aggressiveness. But with him, the line between aggressiveness and stupidity is pretty thin. Going at three defenders by yourself is aggressive, but stupid. Tharpe needs to be agressive, not to mention the upperclassman that he is, and take charge.
Other than that, this was a tough loss. And for the love of everything holy, can we please, please play a home game. To say this team’s confidence has taken a hit is an understatement. I understand the logic behind it, and I may be singing a different tune in April, but right now it’s painfully obvious that this hard of a schedule, and being away from the best basketball arena on the planet is really hurting this young team.
I’ll await Dr. HEM’s grading of my analysis…
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Moonwalk - FWIW, I like your analysis…
My two cents:
1 Cent: I shudder to think what this game would have been like if Wiggins had not joined this recruiting class…
1 Cent: While my confidence is shaken, I think Coach Self can find a silver lining: You guys just played a senior-laden team in a tough venue with a raucous crowd, committed 24 turnovers and lost by just six points. Imagine if you had only 18 turnovers!
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Another lesson for the FROSH: What happens when you have 24 turnovers. Do you like chasing from behind all game?
Next time in practice, listen & rehearse how to break a zone. Also, come to the ball if you are the receiver…No excuse for getting a perimeter pass picked off.
We are not a team yet…
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Here’s my take from tonight.
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Mason played entirely out of control vs D 1 caliber guards & Tharpe played tentative. Our wing was the only guy filling the lane when there was penetration, Will have to re watch & see how often Perry was boxed out, but when the zone collapses there has to be seams for cutters.
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Embid can & does impact the game just as we’ve clamored for. He is the real thing & confirmed, Black is at best the 2nd big off the bench but Lucas may be right behind him now.
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Wigs can flat take over as advertised, is lockdown on D, & will get the best defender to guard him virtually every game from now on. Selden has been a disappointment to me all along, & Greene should continue to get 2 guard minutes from him if Bill just stops calling him Rover.
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I concur, Tharpe & Mason together looked like we were playing 3 against 7 some times as much as they turned it over. Again, ya gotta give Greene more floor time -his passes were crisp, he moves extremely well without the ball, can rebound as a high flyer, & the defense has to respect him as a shooter & a finisher. We had several great guards on the 08’ team & they shared a lot of min with Sherron being the guy that entered the game with the yard dog mentality & change of pace energy that Frank has. I’m not sure Frank is quite ready for prime time yet, but it took balls for Self to make a change when he did. Mason’s passing was just atrocious & Selden stands around too much, so I have to go with Greene stepping into a much larger role from now on. He also appears more comfortable with the ball, while It seems as if Selden is always looking to score as opposed to seeing the floor & others & their movements. He lowers his head on a drive as if he has no periphery.
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Have we seen any real hi low offense this year & will we only see zone defense until we beat a few? Till hell freezes over the zone will negate any & all semblance of the hi/low we’d prefer to run, so unless we start knocking down 3’s with some consistency, Embid & Perry will continue to have fewer & fewer options offensively. I say if you can’t beat em join em, so like HEM states, let’s give opponents a dose of their own medicine. How better to prepare for beating a zone than to learn how to use it? Our M2M is routinely exploited-going under screens, no or slow help rotations, & not boxing out. Hey if it works for them, maybe it’ll work for the baby Jaybirds too. Far as I’m concerned, 24 TO’s is almost as embarrassing as being “Naked as a Jaybird” on live, prime time, Dicky V TV. As always, JMO.
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As bad as the first half was for KU, and as bad as I wanted them not to lose, I don’t really feel bad about this loss. We all knew they would take more losses this year due to their lack of experience, youth on the court. This tough stretch of games will help them in the crunch time of the conference and the march tournaments. Its a toughening box right now. They have to learn from this and have to get better. I think they will. Do I think they are national title contenders? Hell no. Can they be by March? Very possible but we shouldn’t expect a title this year. We should also patient and let them take their lumps without too much bashing from the fanbase. This is the youngest team Coach has ever had. I trust that he will have them playing better soon enough.
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for real Bskeet! KU actually beat them in the second half.
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Another thought, we may have to temper our expectations for the post season this year, much to my chagrin. I really wanted these guys to win it all this year. But seriously I think that we will see a team take the title that is more experienced and has less 5 star talent. So, not teams like Duke, Kentucky, Arizona. More like Michigan state, Florida, Wisconsin is also playing real good right now and Ohio state. All top heavy senior laden teams. Not a whole lot of McD’s talent on any of them but they have experience and toughness. With these new rule changes the experience will trump anything this year. That’s just me. I hope Im wrong. I also hope that Coach Self gets his group of youngsters firing on all cylinders by Conference and win the conference, win the tournament and make a deep run for the national title. If he does, he should get some sort of coaching award.
Im leaving Calipari out of this well because he is Calipari and he sucks. baseballs.
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Great Schedule put together by Coach Self. Once again he is playing chess, while everyone else is playing checkers. He knew these losses were a possibility. However, theese losses are affordable. It prepares us for trips to OU, ISU, OSU, KSU, BU, and UT, which will all be hostile environments. This team will come together. The passing must improve. The low post moves must improve. Big men kicking the ball out for open three’s does not appear to be part of the offense. There’s room for improvement including coaching. We must adapt to the way the games are officiated. We will be okay after all We Are Kansas!!
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WHITE-knuckled.
GREENE - around the gills.
BLACK - makes me blue.
RED - what I’m seeing now.
Ok - there’s my play on the color thing. I’ve read the other posts and I want to say (seriously) hat’s off to you guys. You are obviously more mature and far-sighted than I am. I’m just pissed. I get 500 channels on my TV and I actually watched that garbage last night. Most of it anyway. OK, some of it.
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Like what has been said and won’t repeat. Imagine if they had NOT made half of the 24 turnovers = 12 = and out of those 12 they had made 75% of them. Just don’t understand how they could go more than 7 minutes w/o making a basket. The outside shots were made early in the shot clock and no attempts made to even try to get into the lane. Minus -13 from the bench while the 21-0 run was going on. Where has the aggressiveness in Perry Ellis gone?
Loved the hustle and not giving up in the second half. That’s the positive I have this morning AND that Joel did start. Even Dickie V said Black has underperformed all year and was a “foul machine.”
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So happy I missed the first half. In the second, we came out of the gate terrible, but settled down and started playing ball. I was happy with the way they fought down the stretch.
That non call on Wiggins late in the game hurt us. Instead of Wiggins on the line, Florida go the ball out of bounds. Even Dicky V was upset. That could of put us within one possession.
Loved seeing Wiggins take charge.
As stated by others- happy our boys are heading back to AFH.
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I was late getting out of work so I attempted to set my DVR from my phone. When I got home I found out it didn’t work. Blessing! Some what caught the last 5 minutes or so of the actual game. I’m thinking someone was watching over me and didn’t want me to see a first half that sounds like the TCU game 2.0. The stat that jumped out to me the most last night was the number of TOs. Does anyone recall the points off of turnovers from the Colorado game? At one point I thought they showed that it was 24-8. I’m sure last night the numbers were close to the same if not worse.
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The Good: Kansas won the final 23 minutes 47-33
The Bad: Doubled their Turnover Average
The Ugly: Bill has this year and next year to win with Freshman. Otherwise, he needs to go back to 2-3 year guys. His system isn’t designed to learn in 2-3 months.
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Seeing Brannen get 14 minutes was a positive sign. If he doesn’t continue getting 12-15 minutes a game, I think it’s a coaching error on Self. He knows deep down inside that Brannen is the 1 of the 3 he needs to play. He’s gone to him in both the Duke game and the Florida game. I think this is telling.
A bigger question to me: What the hell happened to Andrew White? Recall all of the positive comments he was getting from Self in October and early November. Since that has not resulted in playing time, my assumption is that Self was just motivating the team with that gimmick.
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Was so upset in the first half. But really saw the team and HCBS learning some things in the second. Can only hope they take it to the next step of the learning process. Only thing afterward that was bothersome was the treatment of White. Came on, made a mistake and was pulled. That was it for him. Was concerned it would happen with Greene also but thankfully it didn’t. It was nice to see Wiggins play with a free mind at the end. But I was really upset with him when he was ball watching and didn’t even see his man go to the basket for a free put back while we were trying to get closer than 8 points behind.
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COLD COLD COLD… They are in that period I warned everyone was coming.
I also missed the first half (will see it tonight). But what I saw in the second half was enough.
I can’t believe they lobbed passes over a zone the entire time. I can’t believe Self let them look like that in public. It was embarrassing. You can make some lob passes over defense, but to go side to side, over and over, lobbing up the ball told me enough… this team has an attitude problem.
Wiggins and Mason were the only ones even marginally attacking the zone. And it wasn’t even a decent zone. I don’t know what is going on in practices… but clearly there are communication issues with the coaches and players. You can not come to a D1 game this unprepared. There is no excuse for the conduct of that game.
You could see it in all their faces… disgust… frowning… tell me any of those guys wanted to be there? These ladies better man up soon because as of right now, they are the laughing stock of college basketball.
I’ve never seen an entire team with that “deer in the headlights” stare before.
I guess they had no preparation for a road game. No long talks and watching file footage of what it is like to go in an opponent’s home arena and deal with a huge crowd screaming for your demise. That is the only explanation for what occurred.
I’ve never seen such a timid team before. Afraid of their own shadows.
I know I sound harsh. But they will never be babied into manhood. Someone has to kick these kiddies in the gut. The road isn’t going to get any easier. Something has to change to make them want to show up for a game. The only thing I can think of is someone on this team will have to grow a pair.
Imagine if they maintain that defeated attitude on the road in the B12? You can not only kiss another league title goodbye, you can forget finishing near the top. Imagine they act like that at ISU… or OSU… or Baylor?!
I can’t feel pity for them. It’s not the attitude you need in sports.
It’s time for these kids to man up!
BTW: If they are able to learn, this file footage should be about the best learning tool possible moving forward. I’d make them watch 10 minutes of it before every practice. Total humiliation. The score did not indicate the level of their a$$kicking!
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A few thoughts from last night…
I saw the first half and knew KU was probably headed to a loss. You simply can’t turn the ball over that much (16 first half TO) against a good team on the road and expect to have a chance. KU is better than Florida, but not so much better that they can sling the ball all over the eastern seaboard and still have a chance to win.
Andrew Wiggins is starting to find himself and impose his will. This may be the most important thing that happened last night, and if it is, this loss may be the biggest win for KU over the course of the season.
Sticking with Wiggins for a second, he needs to find his voice now and confront a couple of teammates. Yes, I am talking about Wayne Selden, Jr. and Perry Ellis. Those guys are too talented to go a combined 3-7 from the field with 8 points, 5 rebounds, 2 assists and 7 turnovers. That’s an ugly line for one guy. For two guys with top notch talent, that’s absolutely unacceptable. Wiggins needs to step up as the best player on the team and tell those guys they need to ride with him.
My biggest issue with the KU turnovers last night was that most of them, probably more than 70% were passive turnovers - lazy passes, retreating dribbles, sloppy ballhandling against a trap, being weak with the ball, etc. That is a question of toughness, specifically of playing tough.
Can’t let Selden off the hook yet. He wasn’t playing well last night, and hasn’t shot well the last several games. That happens. Not gonna pile on because of it. But to allow yourself to be a complete non-factor and not affect the game with defense, rebounding, penetration, passing or some other skill, when its obvious that he possesses all of those skills, is flatly unacceptable. I remember a coach telling me once that if you weren’t shooting well, your effort on the other end needed to elevate. Do something else to help your team. Commit to getting every loose ball, or to tracking down rebounds, or shutting down your man. Do something to help your team win. I think that’s why Self benched him for extended periods of this game.
I said yesterday and I will say again, the four most important players on this team are Wiggins, Selden, Ellis and Embiid. If they bring it, the ceiling for this team is absolutely unlimited. If they don’t, they probably won’t make it past the Sweet 16.
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The first half of last nights game caused me to walk away from a KU game (for 20 minutes) for the first time ever. Too many unforced errors. I’ve thrown junk, I’ve yelled, I’ve changed clothes, I’ve changed seats, I’ve gotten new beverages, I’ve cringed, I’ve cried, but I’ve never walked away before last night’s 21-0 run. I left after 18-0 maybe I should’ve walked outside sooner.
My wife thought the game started at 7cst I think the team did too. The second half was much easier to watch. Not good, but at least you could see the potential again.
Donovan is right the ceiling on this team is great, much greater than his team for sure. Will Bill be able to adapt to the rules and meld his team fast enough? I don’t know, but KU will be much better after the break. KU will be great by years end, but there will be some growing pains.
Donovan threw as many Defenses at KU as possible. This is great for the development of a young team and will be valuable experience come tournament time. Right or wrong under the new rules, Bill is sticking to his philosophy: master of Man to Man defense is better than jack of all defenses master of none.
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First half was repeatedly much worse. TO after TO after TO. No intensity, poor body language, you name it. Even Self stood speechless at times with his arms folded across his chest & a glazed expression on his face. Embid, Traylor, & Ellis exhibited consistent effort most of the time, but the bonehead mistakes were too much for a couple of guys to overcome. Our guards played like krap, plain & simple, the guys continually fighting each other over rebounds, and the lame passing were an atrocity I’ve not seen in a 20 minute stretch in years.
Second half was noticeably diff when Greene was on the floor, but again, Mason & Tharpe’s execution vs the zone was horrendous. Picking up the dribble initiating traps, going under screens on D, telegraphing lobs, a clear exhibit of Murphy’s Law if ever there was one. The three main things I came away with were that Embid must now be on the floor for us to compete, Greene needs to get at minimum 15 minutes a game & I mean at the very least, and if Wigs ever gets the fire under his butt he can take us a long, long way on his ability alone. Selden is just not an accomplished ball handler at this level unless he’s sandbagging, and I believe the presence of Greene with Wigs & one, not two PG’s will stabilize the flow-even if all we see from now on are zones.
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@MoonwalkMafia Welcome aboard. Sorry you felt the need to resist. We don’t bite…too hard.
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@globaljaybird “Will have to re watch & see how often Perry was boxed out, but when the zone collapses there has to be seams for cutters.”
I told my wife as soon as the game was over,“The best thing about this game is I don’t have to watch it again. Unfortunately for Bill he has to watch it again.” You must have a penchant for punishment also.
Luckily for us this wasn’t a season ending loss, so Bill will watch the tape. The team will learn and grow from this loss and hopefully so will Bill.
Sometimes I wonder if Kansas doesn’t play much if any zone until Tournament time so it’s not on tape. Or is it just an act of desperation? It usually works to some degree so why not use it more, too many open looks from the corner? A good man defense gives no uncontested shots. (one answer looking for more)
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I’ve been following the board for about 6 years now, and I’ve read a lot of comments from posters that they would trade 4-5 season losses to get the talent on the floor so they can reach their ceilings by March. Welp, that is what is going on here folks
On another thought…
Can Tarik really be the leader this team needs with his performance level? Are the younger guys just gonna blow him off due to his steady regression? I guess the same goes for Naa…I’m really concerned there is no leader to help develop the identity. Mason is the best fit right now, I guess. I’d like to see Perry take charge, but he’s too quiet, and it just doesn’t seem to be in Wiggy’s demeanor.
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The first half was obviously a disaster. We just haven’t figured out how to punish teams for pressuring us yet. Breaking pressure should lead to easy buckets whether it is full court pressure or teams playing in the passing lanes. At this point the they are young excuse is a bit redundant but these guys just don’t have the plays in their arsenal to make scoring plays.
Someone on here yesterday posted the last big Florida game. I watched part of it and noticed they played quite a bit of zone that game too. The difference was we had plays clearly drawn up to beat it. Back cuts, lobs, flare screens, cross cuts in the post, the list goes on. And that wasn’t even the 2008 team with the 55 plays or however many in the playbook.
Jaybate used to write about Self sending teams out flat or amped. Flat being just kind of sent out there to play with no real edge from the coaching staff (i.e. plays for lobs, special defensive schemes, etc.) So the question is is Self saving this stuff for when they need it (conference), is he unable to communicate this edge to his team yet (inexperience), or was the passing just so bad that we never even had a chance to run “a play” (just bad)?
Either way, Self is a good coach who has proven in the past he can give his players an edge even when they are overmatched physically or less talented. So at some point you would have to think this physically gifted and clearly talented team will benefit from some scouting/coaching that will help make things easy for them. When will we see it? Is it weird that I actually hope it is later rather than sooner?
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I guess they had no preparation for a road game.
I was concerned that the one day of practice between Colorado and Florida would cause problems. But I knew they would play zone (UF). In fact, we knew that many teams would show more zone this year due to the new enforcement of the rules.
A big question that I have, and I have no idea how to run a basketball practice, let a lone a D1 practice. But, if Self foresaw the use of zone more (as he did state in previous interviews prior to season tip) why wasn’t this worked on in practice? I mean, it’s evident they have not practiced beating any press, trapping or zone right? Maybe Self thought they would shoot better than they have. Maybe they will shoot better upon their return to AFH.
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@Blown - I don’t get it either. The rule mods totally rescue ball handlers being pressured. All any of these guys had to do was drop their head and shoulder and drive right through the edge of the defenders. Just don’t drive to the edge, where you can be trapped. This is beyond basic… it’s elementary.
The guys are letting the ball stick anyways… and that split second of hesitation allows defenders to pinch in, then it becomes even harder. And if they aren’t passing the ball rapidly they should be dribbling around… making the zone shift to create bigger seams to attack.
I guess they have been instructed to not drive the ball. (?) Even Mason hesitates to drive now when he’s pinched… something he would have naturally done at the beginning of the season.
I believe there are some issues in communication. I don’t think Self has ever had this green of a team before… so his teaching methods aren’t hitting home because he basically has no elder players to show by example. That’s why I blast Tharpe and Ellis for not taking a leadership role. From the part I watched last night, I couldn’t tell that either of these guys were not freshmen, too. Really sad to see. Seems like they wasted their previous Jayhawk experience because they seem to be back to zero.
I can’t blame Black for much of anything. Essentially, he’s a freshman in the Self system, and he appears to be playing at a similar level of what he was at Memphis. I do think he has made improvements over Memphis. Obviously, I’m with the crowd wanting as much PT for Embiid as possible!
Someone on this team is going to have to step up and take charge. Our first road games were the perfect opportunity for Tharpe to show his leadership skills… and he had an entire team in need of a leader… and he didn’t step up. That’s not the sign I was looking for!
My eyes are pointing to Mason. I know he’s green… but he shows signs of determination and he doesn’t quit.
I believe perhaps our biggest move going forward is choosing a PG. Who is going to lead this team?
I’ve always been a Tharpe fan… but he isn’t showing me that he has what it takes to lead this team. He needs his teammates to believe in him, 100%. How is he going to earn that status now? It’s a tough thing to win over in the middle of the season. Mason can lead by example. Granted… he needs to learn a bit more, but the time is now!
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Has Jaybate been posting on the CJ online forum?
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I said in the last post, that I wasn’t going to panic even if they lost at Florida. That was before I watched them play that first half. I am hitting the panic button now.
If they played like the second half and still lost even with a bigger margin, I wouldn’t be concerned. But I really expected them to look better at this stage than they showed, and if they haven’t made that type of progress, then I am worried what the final product is going to look like. It will be better, but my expectation was FF and NC. Not anymore.
Random Thoughts:
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Hated the rainbow passes throughout the game. Didn’t accomplish anything except allowing Florida defense to as it pleased.
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Perry Ellis needs to have 10 field goal attempts minimum every game. Period.
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Love Selden. In fact, during his recruitment, he is the first guy ever that I fell in love with after watching his high school highlights (usually never put much stock in those). Then I kept hearing all summer that he was the best freshman. I’m disappointed. I think Greene starting would bring more to the table at this point.
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Remember when we used to run a set play for Tyrel Reed at the end of half for a three pointer? Is that not in the play book anymore? I didn’t see one set play for our so-called sharp-shooters! If you have guys that can shoot and you need to come from behind against zone, why wouldn’t you?
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Defense finally showed some teeth in the second half, but offense was just as pathetic and rhythm-less throughout, barring Wiggins-in-the-zone cameo. I’ve never been a fan of Self-offense, but I loved his defense-creating-offense. With new rules and freshmen, perhaps that’s not going to happen.
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The only calming thought: We had four seniors and a lottery pick play worse against TC-flippin’-U much later in the season. So may be there is hope for this bunch…
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@Blown It looks like he was on the live blog yesterday – Link to live blog text
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Far Side-point 6 well taken.
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@approxinfinity thanks. I missed the game and live blog. The game ended as the Christmas Program concluded–at least the last song was “Three Little Birds” so I felt good about it all
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Wiggins looked Lebronesque in the 2nd half. A positive.
Mason looked like he didn’t appreciate the starting job.
Tharpe, while not sparkling, did have 5 assists and 3 TO’s, superb numbers for KU last night. The competition is heating up for that PG position.
You’ve all said it about Tarik and you’re all right. He should have enjoyed his swansong in Memphis
We actually led 10-3.
Jeff made blocking shots fun to watch, Joel’s are downright entertaining.
You all were clamoring for Greene earlier in the season (I don’t take the time to get to know these guys preseason) and you were correct.
Selden seems to make a nice play or two at the beginning of the game and then disappears.
Perry will come on strong just like he did last year.
We’re going to see a lot of zone this year.
The no call on Wiggins drive to the hoop when we’re down by 4 (I think) was the worst call of the season bar none. They get that right, it’s down to the wire.
It’ll be nice to see the team in AFH for a change.
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@Blown-The best way to prepare for attacking a zone is to teach your squad how to use it defensively. Getting the shape of the zone to change is the key, either by crisp ball reversal & passes, or by driving creases & creating dish opps for the penetrators. And it is not as easy as it sounds either as the frontcourt must keep quickly moving to find the open seam & be ready for the initial pass, post up, secondary pass, or the finish. Embid is a finisher with a capitol F & he is the ultimate zone buster to me. Wigs has the same mentality going at the rack also. Plus I think Greene can be as HEM referenced him days ago, an assassin, either with the finish or the stroke on a kickout which you absolutely must possess to defeat a zone. So far I’ve not seen the proverbial extra pass for the open shooter even on a limited basis. There is a lot to work on for sure, but agree we should see an entirely diff team after the break. While Perry has great drop step & post up fall away, shooters touch moves, I am not seeing the aggressiveness I anticipated from his previous late season surge on finishing with flushes. This has to change also & can be groomed with more reps in the gym. And I agree that someone has to step up & say this krap has to stop. Accountability & leadership are vital to a young team & someone like Na or Perry has got to step up to the plate.
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Wisox-That was by farthe worst call of the game & was actually a 6-7 pt momentum swing against us.
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I was really disappointed in Tharpe as well. There was a moment near the end of the game when we were still in it (down 6 or
and Florida made a free throw. Wiggins takes the ball out and there were no jayhawks on that side of half court. We got lucky and didn’t turn it over (barely) because Traylor and Greene came back for it eventually. My first thought was maybe Self had done a weird offense defense switch so we had no point guard on the floor. But after rewinding and fast fowarding and really really really searching I found Tharpe standing in the absolute far corner as far away from the action as possible. Whether he floated there after the ball got in and Wiggins controlled it, I don’t know. But where was he when Wiggins is literally jumping up and down on the sideline yelling for somebody to help. Wiggins had no idea how much help he really needs! All these guys better step up, but I was hoping Tharpe already would have.
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Not sure why there is a dude with sunglasses in that last post! It was supposed to say 6-8 end parentheses. Also it was a reply to drgnslayr’s comments about Tharpe.
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that key combination maps to an emoticon… here’s the list of emoticons on this board.
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I have always been more of a reader than a contributor to forums like this. Like the rest of you, I’m extremely passionate about KU Basketball and I spend a completely unnecessary amount of time and energy pouring through articles, blogs and anything else I can find to satiate my KU hoops appetite. It’s always been entertaining to me to digest the knee-jerk reactions, analyses, theories and prognostications shared between you fine folks.
Going into last night’s game, I was fairly confident we would bounce back and build off of the tough loss on Saturday. I thought that the ship would begin to point North a bit and some strides would be taken towards becoming the cohesive, formidable team I’m still very confident we will see by the end of the year. Please note that all of these positive things can happen without coming out of a hostile, raucous road environment against a veteran, tough, tourney-tested team with a win. In fact, I thought we would lose this game (I know, what a terrible fan I am…)
Much has been said about the landmines sprinkled out over this schedule. When I first saw it, I predicted that we would be looking at 4 losses by the time we trek it down to Norman to start the conference season. Just like everyone else, I was guilty of amping up my expectations after the Duke win. Those expectations weren’t fair and they clearly weren’t accurate given that KU is still an extremely young team (which got even younger last night with 4 Freshman starters) with minimal big-time College Basketball floor experience playing one of the toughest non-con schedules in the country. Thankfully, these road warriors are now looking at a few home games.
There are obviously, several things that need work (including ballhandling, rebounding, etc.) and the lineup is still sorting itself out but instead of dwelling on these things, I think there are some positive things to note:
- Granted, the first half was abysmal. They were clearly rattled and confused by the switching zones that Florida presented. They threw the ball around the gym, dribbled off their feet, ran into each other on rebounds and seemed to miss every shot that they were actually able to throw up. But all of these things didn’t seem to be due to lack of effort – in fact, most of them seemed due to “overtrying”. Not that these mistakes are completely excusable since the boys were “trying hard”, but it’s easy (especially for a young team) to fold up in that kind of environment against a team that clearly has the mojo.
- When we weren’t chucking the ball all around the gym and we were able to get some shots off, they were actually falling. There was obviously a litany of easy layups that didn’t drop (I’m looking at you, Tarik Black), but for a team that was struggling from deep, it was great to see some shots going in. 42% from behind the arc is encouraging. That’s the equivalent of 60% from the 2-point floor. I’ll take it.
- When Dickie V wasn’t apologizing on behalf of Wiggins for the “inexperienced backcourt” that couldn’t seem to get him the ball, he made several comments about how it seemed like the score should be worse. I found myself thinking the same thing. Somehow there is some resiliency to this team that showed sparks of it in the first half and a lot of it in the second. They got their asses handed to them on the offensive glass in the first half with Florida getting two, sometimes three shots every trip down the floor. They were able to man up a bit in the second and they did a great job of taking 9th-year senior Patrick Young out of the game a bit.
- Wilbekin has an extremely punchable face. It was extremely frustrating every time he squashed a run or hit a big shot (and it seemed to happen with precision frequency). Until… Wiggins took up the assignment. I love it when Wiggins gets a chance to take on the opposing teams best scorer. He seems to be capable of guarding multiple positions (including post players as evidenced by his shutting down of Julius Randle in the summer circuit last year). Hopefully Coach Self can trust him to stay out of foul trouble enough to give us our defensive stopper.
- I’ve read a lot of comments about “shaken confidence” and perhaps this team has been humbled a bit (which isn’t a bad thing). However, I think the way they battled back on the road against a top 20 team (and now that they’re full-strength, Florida may wind up being a Top 10 opponent) and were just a couple bounces and a few preventable turnovers short of a win is an incredibly optimistic sign. We cut our turnovers in half from the first half to the second and were a bad no-call and an inexcusable turnover away from making it a 4-point game with roughly 2 minutes left. After watching the first half and knowing where it could’ve potentially gone, I think that is a remarkable achievement.
We’re heading back to AFH (after a quick stop in KC). Friendly faces and quality opponents await, but I still believe it’s only up from here. I think it’s just important to realize we’re much closer to the ’06 team than the ’08 team. Call me naïve but I’m buckled up and ready to enjoy the ride…
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@Apologist-Great summation,don’t be a stranger.
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Awesome reads in here today! Pretty calm posting.
I’m not in a panic yet… but feel it is my duty to hammer down on the team. I’ll panic when we start dropping conference games!
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@drgnslayr - Careful! There will be plenty of those too! I’m thinking 4 or less should do it. Hopefully we are learning how to win on the road (even if we haven’t done it yet!). But I imagine these Hawks will surprise us with a home loss in conference at some point. They almost always do, and this team won’t be any different.
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A few assorted thoughts.
Once again, freshmen playing like freshmen, why are so many people surprised? Last years Kentucky freshmen class did not even make it to the dance and lost a first round game to Bobby MO in the NIT.
Someone said Florida will be in the chase in March? In March we will beat them by double digits; we actually beat them by 9 in the second half.
Tarik’s line 0 points, 2 rebounds, 1 assist, 3 fouls in 6 minutes. Jamari’s line 5 points, 9 rebounds, 1 assist and 2 fouls in 17 minutes. The question is… why is Tarik getting 6 minutes?
The more influential plays in the last couple of minutes:
Tarik misses bunny form 1 foot out.
No foul call on Wigging drive to the basket down 4 points. We don’t get any points and Florida get the ball. Worst call of the season so far. Even Dick Vitale briefly stopped watching reruns of the Duke game to indicate what a bad call it was.
Green misses the ball and turns it over with little time left.
Any of those 3 plays above, particularly the foul on Wiggins, goes differently and the odds of stealing the game would have gone up considerably.
When Wigging is in beast mode he is unstoppable and we just got a taste of what he can do…as Jack Wilson tells Philo Beddoe (in Any which way you can)…pleasure watching you work…
The only other players with some semblance of passion are Green and Traylor; the rest seem too complacent. Maybe the shorter boot camp has something to do with it.
As much as the first half reminded me of the TCU game (ouch!!!), I did see a lot of things I liked in the second half; hopefully the experience will serve them well in the future.
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IYO, what residual impact, if any, have the departures of Danny Manning, Joe Dooley, Doc Sadler, and Barry Hinson had on Coach Self and the players? I am not familiar with their replacements but am wondering who is developing bigs, doing scouting reports and serving as the calming influence/confidante for Coach Self.
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Wondered about that boot camp idea myself. Surely BS hasn’t gone soft & coddled these guys a bit? We need bodies & Black may still get 6 min per game, but Landon may have a greater potential at this point if he’s progressing at all. There seemed to be much more exhibited effort to go after the 50/50 balls though in many instances we were fighting our own teammates only to loose possession completely. You’d think the same color uniform would be a good giveaway.
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Interesting… I already started writing for a new thread: “Has Bill Self gone soft?”
No sexual pun intended!
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@drgnslayr woh woh woh! I may be out on a limb here, but I typically by default assume you’re not talking about Bill Self sexually! :=D
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Tarik Black is a great guy, but next to worthless on the floor. As a senior, we should be able to count on him to provide leadership, but that’s difficult to do when you’re missing bunnies and riding pine with foul trouble. It’s clear the new rules have been giving him fits.
Tharpe really grinds my gears. The one play that drove me nuts yesterday was on defense: Wilbekin has the ball just behind the three point line, and Tharpe is “guarding” him, but has his head on a swivel looking around for potential screens (I would guess)–Wilbekin just drains it, and Naadir didn’t do much to contest it. Add to that the host of questionable decisions on offense, and the bad -and-one, and it’s not a good trajectory.
I’m not sure what’s happened to Perry the last few games. I certainly expected a little more from him given his start to the season. I’d add Selden to that list as well.
The bright side is that we’ve identified a weakness early in the season & will likely crack the code of attacking a Zone defense earlier than we would have otherwise.
The other great outcome (besides the comeback effort) is that Wiggins asserted himself, particularly during the last few minutes. I don’t think anyone can question that he wants the ball in crunch time–and that he seems to have that Chalmers-esque clutch factor in his favor.
Still a lot of hoops to be played, and I’m sure the team will enjoy playing closer to home.
