This Is Horrifying
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@JayHawkFanToo Please don’t compare a guy that’s been playing in the NBA for over a decade to Jamari Traylor. I understand your point. But Kirk Heinrich can produce, and produce well! Forget intangibles, what Heinrich has are tangibles.
Giving Self a pass on this sort of thing on the basis of speculation is just not good enough. This isn’t the first time this has happened. Jamari Traylor is not a better option. Period. Like others have said, you mean to tell me that you haven’t seen Traylor get blown by on defense? Mess up a play? Bounce pass to a double-teamed man?? I can’t stand hearing about Self’s resume in this sort of situation. I know he’s a great coach. I’d argue that he’s the best in the game. But as we’ve seen this year, Self is being forced into a position where he has a team that doesn’t fit his traditional mold and he’s been dragged absolutely kicking and screaming like a three year old into adjusting it. It’s like trying to convince a girl she’s wrong. Traylor shouldn’t have been in the game over anyone with under 3 minutes left. I would’ve taken anyone over Traylor at that point. People get so wrapped in this “energy” nonsense that they seem to forget that he is not that great of a technical basketball player; he’s only been playing organized ball for a few years. I don’t want to be rude about this, but I can’t stand the Bill Self cheerleader fans that see nothing wrong with the decisions that are made in games (Trey Burke says hi) because he’s Bill Self.
The million dollar question now becomes, will Cliff start over Traylor against Tech? How bout Baylor? How bout at any point in the season?
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@MoonwalkMafia I’ starting to think Cliff was lookin for the outhouse & found the doghouse. This energy crap doesn’t add up to me or many others. Gotta think something is up with classes, practice, or some mystery item (s) that is holding Cliff’s minutes down. The possibilities for Cliff to excel are exponentially greater than Traylor…and don’t forget he also broke curfew getting cuffed at a flippin bar a few weeks ago for cryin in a bucket. JMO but I think there’s a real turd in the punchbowl that none outside of the locker room circle are privy to.
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For the man that is good with a hammer, everything is a nail. Bill Self has been very successful with the hammer.
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Starting Cliff does not matter, just making sure he gets more minutes per game. The more minutes he gets, the more points and rebounds and blocks KU will get in each game.
Cliff is averaging only a little more than 18 min/game. He and the team will improve a lot if he averages 25 min/game going forward, and he will probably get a boatload of double-doubles. He might be physically challenged (sore, hurt, bruised, joint pain???) but he seems to be a good kid and I really do not think there are off the court issues.
Jamari is a good player, this is not about him or Landon. They are great four year players and teammates. But their upside is limited. especially against elite competition.
This is not about Coach sandbagging or trying to keep Cliff for another year by not giving him court time. There is no conspiracy.
This is simply our Head Coach not getting the Big Red Dog to fit his schemes or play the way he wants him to. I like the pressure from the fans and press to challenge Coach to give Cliff more minutes b/c it does make our team better.
RCJH beat TT!
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@Bwag Yeah but some still think it’s OK for them to drive a thumbtack with a sledgehammer…
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Read my post again. I was not comparing Traylor to Hinrich at all, I simply provided an example of how numbers alone do not provide the entire story. I am a huge fan of Kirk but look at his numbers this season compared to his career average and tell me if his assists and points have not dropped to half his career average and all his stat are down across the board and yet he is still getting substantial play time (27 vs 33 mpg). Obviously there are intangibles that the number alone do not tell. That was the entire point of mentioning Hinrich.
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@MoonwalkMafia You’ll be happy to know that coach K just fouled, up by three, under 7 seconds on the clock. That guy has almost twice as many wins and four times as many national championships than Self, if we are to cite resumes. He also adjusted, and has played zone this season when the match-ups dictate. He’s also been known be flexible with his system to adjust to his talent. The most three pointers shot by any player under Self is 205, by Sherron Collins in 08-09. Coach K let JJ Reddick gun 238, 258, 300 and 330 in each of his four seasons at Duke.
Some folks are calling Greene the best three point shooter in college basketball right now. But Self has him shooting within the flow of the offense – the structured offense. The “very restricted system”, as one NBA scout called it. Perhaps the best three point shooter in the game right now is on track to shoot just 107 three pointers … if we play a full 40 games.
You’ve got an undeniable weapon, yet you won’t scheme to get him looks.
Throw it in to Ellis, who scores at a rate of of 54.2 % at the rim; or Traylor 53.3%; or Lucas 48.4% – or you play your best at the rim post scorer (68.4%) 14 minutes in a loss when he’s 4/5 near the rim.
Or you can scheme to get a guy that shoots 51.6% from three point range as many looks as possible (I don’t think he’d shoot 51.6% shooting twice as many, but I do think he’s a guy that will shoot over 40%, for sure – same argument).
But no, Self says our normal rate of three pointers that have been shot over the years is all we really need, even with the incompetent “at the rim” post play.
It makes no sense. This team has the talent to be dominant offensively. This team has the talent offensively to simply outscore opponents. But we have to play our system, right?
And so it is. Someone defend that.
**Let me add, I don’t think coach K is a better coach than Self. Since Self has been at Kansas, Self and coach K have won the same amount of national titles. And I’d say Kansas has been better. It is just criminal that a weapon like Brannen Greene is not exploited.
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Regarding Cliff, there could be some crazy back story that we don’t know. But if it is the doghouse, then he should be suspended and not play at all. The only credible back story to me could be an injury we don’t know about. One that Self says, “let me know how you’re doing.” It seems odd that no one has mentioned anything – Newell, Dodd, Bedore, Keegan. And we’ve seen nothing on the bench with Dr. Randle or any of the staff checking or talking to Cliff. Cliff doesn’t appear or act injured, he doesn’t wince in pain.
I think it is simply that Self prefers Traylor – one of those deals that only Self can explain. Which, of course, he never will. Much like the inexplicable use of post feeder deluxe Brady Morningstar. But guys, this is worse. Much worse. EJ and Releford were expectancies. Meaning, we thought we knew what they could do. Now, we were right, of course, on what they could do. That was proven. But Cliff is showing us what he can do right now. And he is flat out better. Not even the biggest Self defenders can deny that, or create what-if scenarios to cover the obvious. Cliff is just better.
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Well, in league play it does appear that Traylor and Selden are the two weakest links in our starting lineup. Is easier for must of us to understand and live with the minutes of Selden, although I predict that Self is running short of patience. The Jamari thing is more of a mystery. I think that Bill really likes the kid and is supersensitive to Traylor’s emotional state as a nonstarter. But, in regard to both players, facts are facts, and the hourglass now is more than half empty. We are bound to see changes implemented this week…or we must bite bullets in respect to our mentor’s seemingly shortsighted motives. Self’s record speaks for itself (although that record has come up against some persistent glitches). Still and all, he and his Jayhawks continue to offer fans some splendid seasons, as well as individual battles. We are engaged in our own games, here on this board. Competition DELUXE!
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@JayHawkFanToo – Two questions. Is it possible that there are not intangibles at work here? And other than the general “energy” deal with Traylor, what intangibles do you note? Anything?
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@HighEliteMajor Let me just say that many of us simply are not able to express our intentions & criticism of Bill nearly as profoundly as you do. Most of us here wouldn’t trade him for anyone else in CBB-me included. But the red/blue pill is really telling, as is his donkey-like stubbornness to change his game to adapt to his personnel. While many of us may have these understandings, putting them into words for others to fully comprehend can be quite difficult. Like I posted yesterday, I learn something new every time I log on here at buckets. Thanks for a much more informative way to say what some of us are not as simplistic or eloquent to accomplish. Many coaches would game plan an entire season around a prolific shooter like Greene may be. Not saying he is yet, but plainly he deserves more PT like Cliff. Some of these things are just an anomaly to me.
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As I indicated in my post, I watch games like everybody else here and that is the extent of what I know. I will guess that also like everybody else here, I have no inside information on what goes on with the team behind close doors, so unless I have the entire story I prefer not to speculate or second guess the decisions of the one person that has all the information…but then, that is just me and I don’t expect anyone else to do likewise…so you can speculate or second guess all you want.
When I post an opinion or a bit of information, I try to provide a link to the source, otherwise I usually qualify it as just my opinion and that it could well be wrong…again that is just me.
More specifically in response to your question, I do believe that Traylor brings more energy and also believe the he is able to step away from the basket and on occasion drive to the basket or take the short to mid range jumper like he did against Baylor, where Cliff normally plays with 5 feet of the basket and when he steps outside he is slow getting back and leaves the door open for back cuts. Just my opinion.
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"You’ll be happy to know that coach K just fouled, up by three, under 7 seconds on the clock.’
Two seconds left on the clock. Didn’t KU do the same thing at Baylor just a couple of weeks ago? Ahead by 3 Mason fouled with 6 seconds left, right?
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@globaljaybird Thanks … much appreciated. I think my wife would prefer if I was a blue pill guy. Life would be easier from Nov - March.
@JayHawkFanToo – But of course, Self did NOT foul under 7, up by three against Utah, remember? They shot a three and missed with four or five seconds left. It’s a no brainer. Why do it one time and not the next? I assume you think Self is right both times. Of course, my response to @MoonwalkMafia was referring to his Trey Burke comment when we didn’t foul and we got knocked out of the NCAA tourney. There is no Self defense on that one. That was the big one. That came after seeing Memphis lose on the same deal in 2008. And Self took no responsibility for it. Why foul at Baylor, but not vs. Utah or Michigan?
Now, to substance. I do think @JayHawkFanToo has hit on something here regarding Traylor. His discussion of Traylor identifies Traylor’s ability to drive the ball. This is really the best explanation for why Traylor may be playing vs. Cliff. If Self sees us as not being truly inside-out, and that our inside baskets may be more from driving the ball, then Traylor is the choice. It may explain Self’s preference – the explanation for the inexplicable. Really, this is the best explanation. It fits. Not saying I would agree with the choice to use Traylor more than Cliff even with that, but it does at least give a possible explanation.
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Broken record time.
As the conference lead dwindles, Cliff plays more.
As the conference lead widens, Cliff plays less.
Why?
To let Self develop Traylor and Lucas.
Traylor has to learn how to shoot it.
Traylor has to learn how to drive it.
Traylor has to learn how to pass it and catch it, if they are going to commit to 1-4 and driving to the blocks from the 1-4 formation.
Traylor is at the point that he has to do it in games for the team to move forward down the path of playing 1-4 a lot.
Traylor has to eventually learn how to be in the four man weave. And maybe a five man weave.
If Traylor can’t cut it, then Selden’s got to step up and be one of the four in the 1-4 (i.e., point guard out front and two wings and two high posts), or Self probably has to junk the 1-4 go back to the 1-2-2 and 1-3-1 and start running action to get shots.
Cliff’s and Lucas’ roles are set. They play on the block whether its the old 1-2-2 high low formation, or the old 1-3-1 high low formation.
Cliff’s minutes have to be held down whenever possible, so Self can afford to get Traylor and Lucas as far along as we can get them before tournament time, and for next season.
Cliff sits when Jamari is trying to learn the outside role in the 1-4 formation.
Cliff sits when Lucas is trying to learn to play the 1-3-1 and 1-2-2 formations.
I just don’t see any thing else going on.
Cliff is being a good teammate and going along with the program, because he’s going pro regardless.
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While the commons sense option seem to be that fouling with a 3 point lead is the better option when you look at the number it is not that obvious. Here is a interesting article on the subject that once again leaves the question unanswered. The most comprehensive study on the subject was done by a team from the Harvard School of Business who looked at data for finishes under this condition for a number of years and the result was that there was no real difference between fouling and defending. Respected coaches such as Mark Few and analyst such as Jay Bilas prefer the no-foul approach but there is no set answer because there seems to be a difference depending on the number of seconds left, where 2 would lend itself to a foul but over 7 seconds might not, it also depend on the players and shooters on the court at the time; coaches that trust their defense will likely opt to defend while coaches of teams with weak defense will likely opt to foul . In short, it is game time call that if you get it right you are a genius, and if you miss it you get crucified. Keep in mind that many times coaches will tell the players to foul but they cannot or will not due to the risk of getting a flagrant called which can be the worst possible outcome. If you remember the KU-Memphis game, Calipari was screaming to foul but Collins was able to avoid being fouled (Memphis will always say that he was) passed the ball to Mario and the rest is history.
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It is obvious what Self is doing with Cliff’s minutes. It is NOT sitting him because of mistakes, or errors he makes. Self is looking to NEXT YEAR and wants the Big Dog on next years team. In other words, if Cliff plays a lot right now the NBA will come calling with a high draft pick that Cliff would take. So keep him out of the game and NOT let his draft status rise whereby he would be lost to KU and Self next year.
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@RedRooster Though you may be correct, I think Cliff is gone anyway. He has the motor Bill wants, but he’s running E 85 when he knows high octane can blow the engine. IMO Cliff may be sandbagging, not Bill. How many OAD’s have we had now that seemed to be playing less than full speed & then shifted to a higher gear once they hit the combine? Cliff may possibly just be saving it for the one he loves. If the goods are damaged now he is plainly SOL. JMO
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I think Cliff was going to stay another year (or so) unless he was predicted to be a top 3-5 pick. That just isn’t going to happen this year.
If he leaves for the NBA this summer he will have completely toasted his NBA career chances. He is no where near ready to play in the league. Not even close. Just compare him to TRob… TRob has him beat in all areas of the game, and he really has to fight to stick with a club. Players get a relatively short period of time to prove themselves “NBA worthy” and after that, even if they improve, the chances are slim that they make it. Teams look for guys right out of school.
I remember Cliff already talking about staying before he ever came to Lawrence. He knows he isn’t ready.
Self may be doing Cliff a favor by keeping down his minutes because if he was putting up big numbers, he would be on the media watch list and would be getting over-hyped.
None of that changes the fact that he only really has a slam dunk for a shot. He is perhaps more raw than TRob in his first year. At least TRob had the motor to finish other scoring and it didn’t have to be a dunk.
BTW: I have absolutely no current connections with anyone relating to this program. All I have is my opinions, and as such, they should be taken only as a fan’s opinion.
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@globaljaybird and @RedRooster
I like to think these OAD relationships are negotiated before players arrive.
For 1 year half speed, you get 15-20 mpg.
For 1 year full speed, you get 30-35 mpg.
For 2 years half speed, you get starter but not go to guy.
For 2 years full speed, you get starter and go to guy.
The OAD and his advisors decide what he needs based on what his expected demand in the draft will be.
Things are renegotiated for the unforeseen by the end of the first season.
Cliff’s draft rank seems independent of his performance just as Wiggins did. It can fall a few slots but not much and it only takes one 15 FGA branding game and 25 points and one recovers.
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The trouble for Cliff is that a lot of college teams don’t have size, so he’s forced to cover some random 6-7 guy that plays out on the wing. That is not his strength. The NBA would allow him to play more inside where his strengths - rim protection, rebounding, dunking - would be on full display.
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I worry that Cliff is really struggling with the back issues. Self got burned last year when his best big had back trouble mid-season, struggled with it throughout the year, and then was done by tournament time. Perhaps he is trying to avoid this worst case and save Cliff for the big dance. However, I cannot reconcile this with his use of Mason who is clearly wearing down and the more important piece of our team this year. It may be the combination of all the reasons above.
Truth is Cliff can’t score one on one. He can dunk. He has shown the possibility of a jumper but not consistently. He has a hook shot that is just not that great. He can’t drive. He’s probably only 6’8. He runs well (but not for extended periods or big minutes) and he jumps well (when the back isn’t bothering him). So therefore, low minutes.
His biggest strength is his rebounding. He is a really good rebounder. He pulls balls down in a crowd as well as anybody. TRob would go over people or through people which are more effective ways to rebound. But Cliff just seems to end up with the ball without out jumping opposing bigs or even bullying them around. I assume this must mean he has really strong hands. But even with this great rebounding, you don’t see him snag offensive boards and go immediately back up and score too often, unless it’s an uncontested dunk.
Should he play more? Probably. Will he play more? Maybe. Is he ready for the NBA? No. Will he go anyway? Most likely. Can we win the big 12 with him still not playing much? Yes. Can we win the National Championship? Nope.
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“I do believe that Traylor brings more energy and also believe the he is able to step away from the basket and on occasion drive to the basket or take the short to mid range jumper like he did against Baylor, where Cliff normally plays with 5 feet of the basket and when he steps outside he is slow getting back and leaves the door open for back cuts. Just my opinion.”
I think you hit on something.
Traylor does bring a chance that he might drive the ball. Unfortunately, his mid range game doesn’t seem to be building positive steam.
But playing Traylor gives Self the possibility to play his current offensive set. Which is to bring Traylor around the FT line and further out for ball screens.
Cliff is still too rough. He is a beast, but best left in the very low post, just a few feet from the goal.
By putting Traylor in this area, it also leaves lots of other possibilities for Perry. Perry has been playing more like a 3 lately. He goes high for ball screens and is constantly using a pick and pop or pick and roll. He also sometimes comes to the top of the key for his trey. And sometimes he slashes.
I don’t really agree with Self’s current offense. It has one big, weakness flaw. Traylor can’t seem to hit the mid range. Teams leave it wide open for him and I bet his % in that area is around 25%. For that reason, the guy guarding BamBam can sag in the post or also look to help others out.
I would prefer playing guys where they present a bigger threat. BamBam’s only threat to score is on a slash move where he is in motion when he scores. Kind of an extended layup. We can run plays to make that happen more, but we can’t bog down our offense by keeping BamBam posted in the middle of everything and allowing his man to roam free. This has been a real detriment to Perry’s inside scoring, because it guarantees he has to do it over double teams.
If we are going to clog the middle… I’d rather have it be with Cliff in the low post. At least he poses a real threat. If Perry is slashing in the post with the ball and gets double teamed, he simply dishes it off to Cliff for the easy slam.
We do really need to work more offense with Perry. I know he can fade in and out of games. But no one on this team has more scoring range than Perry. He can now effectively hit the 3 from the top of the key, and he can score very well in motion and in mid range. We aren’t utilizing him well enough. I think if we design the right offense, he becomes deadly. And when he gets rolling… he stays engaged with the game. More chances he fights hard for rebounds and defends better. But when Perry disappears from scoring, he typically disappears in the game all together.
Since Cliff is so rough on offense… he should be limited to playing right at the basket, and off to both sides along the baseline. It should take little time to teach him how to finish 8 feet away along the baseline. Those finishes typically require strength, and he has plenty of that. And he should always get his fair share of offensive rebounds.
If Cliff wants to play on more areas of the court, he’ll have to dedicate himself into extra gym time to build his toolbox. He better be doing that anyways, or he’ll never see a NBA court!
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I thought Cliff was struggling with shortness outside till the team picture suggested he may be only 6-6 or 6-7. Whatever his actual standing height is he appears 1-2 inches shorter than Perry and that suggests he could have trouble in the L.
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Cliff can slap a rebound and take it away from five people, but cannot catch or go to meet a ball when it is thrown to him. Brannen has probably been give 3 TO’s this year throwing it to Cliff where Cliff did not try to come out and meet the ball. He might have a good position, but rather than meet the pass, if it takes him away from where he wants to be and the ball goes out of bounds. Also, sometimes he is like a quarterback that throws the ball into a crowd because that is where the ball is designed to go. If a man is open get him the ball, if he is not, reverse it and find an open man. Jamari turns the ball over, but his TO’s usually involve traveling where he moves his feet on a fake. These are the final 8 games of the Conference season, Whatever you say, Coach will go with the player he trust the most, and his blood pressure has been raised many times this year by both of them.
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Against the Baylor zone passes went over the zone to Jamari and he hit 6-7 mid range jumpers. Last year in the NCAA against Eastern Tennessee he hit 7-8 for 17 points and 14 rebounds. Just two examples that come to mind. Traylor can play and he can hit the mid-range jumper, he just does not seem to do it consistently.
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@JayHawkFanToo Thankfully Calisleazy wasn’t smart enough to have his guys foul in 2008.
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There’s no doubt in my mind that Cliff is a much better option than Jamari. To me, Landen is a better option than Jamari. Jamari can’t defend opposing centers, and we don’t play a Wichita St schedule that would allow us to play a 6’6" guy in the paint. I think it’s misplaced loyalty. This is all my opinion - I don’t have a hotline to the huddle or anything. Just my 2 cents worth.
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@RedRooster You might be right, but I just can’t accept the concept that Self would try to “hide” Cliff or hinder his development to hold on to him for another year. But you are not the only one to say this. I think he is trying to get the best effort and performance out of Cliff. Self seems to give guys with a track record (even an uneven track record) more rope than the new guys. Hence, the minutes that Selden and Traylor get. Of course, both of us (and everyone else) are just speculating
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Well, my Jayhawk brethren. Our prayers have been answered. Brother Bill has seen the light.
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@MoonwalkMafia Well here’s hoping that our worst fears don’t happen…2 quick fouls and to the bench for Cliff. But I’m glad he is getting the chance.
