The democratic nominee
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modules:composer.user_said_in, @benshawks08, The democratic nominee
See evidence to support my previous argument above^^^^
I’m sorry. I’m in a bit of attack mode. I’m sorry. You spoke your thoughts and I was rude. Deleted my post out of respect. You should be proud of @approxinfinity he is a good dude.
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@Bwag dream on?
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@Crimsonorblue22 said in The democratic nominee:
@Bwag dream on?
That was funny. I know you don’t like me but that was funny. Nice job.
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@DoubleDD I’d say some of that comes with being the president. Obama was accused of being a muslim (as if that was a bad thing), of not being a citizen, of wearing a tan suit…
And the rest of it Trump brings on himself by defiantly refusing to: follow any governmental norms, learn and understand what he can and cannot do as president, and live on the line (or over the line) of what is appropriate behavior from an elected official.
Have you ever participated in a “good debate” because your posts are not that. You don’t defend a position, you deflect, ignore, and accuse others of wrongdoing instead of defending your guy. For example, if a student cheats on a test, accusing another student of also cheating doesn’t prove that kid didn’t cheat whether the accusation is accurate or not. Nor does the defense that some other kid stole money from my desk so cheating isn’t even bad.
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@benshawks08 said in The democratic nominee:
@DoubleDD I’d say some of that comes with being the president. Obama was accused of being a muslim (as if that was a bad thing), of not being a citizen, of wearing a tan suit…
And the rest of it Trump brings on himself by defiantly refusing to: follow any governmental norms, learn and understand what he can and cannot do as president, and live on the line (or over the line) of what is appropriate behavior from an elected official.
Have you ever participated in a “good debate” because your posts are not that. You don’t defend a position, you deflect, ignore, and accuse others of wrongdoing instead of defending your guy. For example, if a student cheats on a test, accusing another student of also cheating doesn’t prove that kid didn’t cheat whether the accusation is accurate or not. Nor does the defense that some other kid stole money from my desk so cheating isn’t even bad.
I’m sorry you feel that way. Because I feel like I’m going up against perception Created by the media and the Democratic Party. I mean have you ever heard of anybody woman or man black white green blue being wrong about everything. It seems illogical.
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@DoubleDD said in The democratic nominee:
modules:composer.user_said_in, @benshawks08, The democratic nominee
See evidence to support my previous argument above^^^^
I’m sorry. I’m in a bit of attack mode. I’m sorry. You spoke your thoughts and I was rude. Deleted my post out of respect. You should be proud of @approxinfinity he is a good dude.
I didn’t see it as I was typing my response to your earlier post. Not trying to get personal, just can’t follow your logic or argument.
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@benshawks08 said in The democratic nominee:
@DoubleDD said in The democratic nominee:
modules:composer.user_said_in, @benshawks08, The democratic nominee
See evidence to support my previous argument above^^^^
I’m sorry. I’m in a bit of attack mode. I’m sorry. You spoke your thoughts and I was rude. Deleted my post out of respect. You should be proud of @approxinfinity he is a good dude.
I didn’t see it as I was typing my response to your earlier post. Not trying to get personal, just can’t follow your logic or argument.
Just know I was rude and I’m sorry. You have right to speak your mind.
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@benshawks08 said in The democratic nominee:
@FarmerJayhawk said in The democratic nominee:
@DoubleDD said in The democratic nominee:
@approxinfinity said in The democratic nominee:
@DoubleDD said in The democratic nominee:
@kjayhawks said in The democratic nominee:
@DoubleDD @approxinfinity @DanR We have to be able to see it from the other side without insulting and fighting each other. There is truth to both sides. Have the Dems labeled virtually everything Trump has done including his initial China travel ban racist? Yes, without question. Has Trump back tracked and gave circular reasoning? Yes, without question.
I’m not the one calling names. I’m just posting a different point of view. I guess it’s like how a conservative speaker can’t speak on on a college campus anymore for fear of their life. And conservatives are nazi’s?
Some extreme trolling right here. I didn’t call it dumbass trolling. Just extreme trolling.
Yet is it not true? Are not conservatives refrained on college campuses? For the colleges can’t give them the protection needed. What are these kids being taught? Doesn’t the media treat and even says the rep party is Nazism? Just saying
As an instructor at a college campus I can say a couple things on this. 1) liberals are much more resistant to hearing opposing ideas than conservatives 2) this doesn’t necessarily mean conservatives are oppressed 3) I’ve had conservatives come up to me and say thank you for trying to include all sides of a conversation since they’re obviously a distinct minority.
Reading this board would convince me conservatives are more resistant to hearing opposing ideas with @DoubleDD as the prime example. Conservatives right now, led by trump are looking for every opportunity to play the victim and it’s as sincere as those procedural arguments you brought up earlier. It’s trumps playbook over and over. Take the position of the attacked so that it looks like punching up even though he has the highest office in the land and the only direction he can punch (or would ever have the courage to) is down. Notice how in most of the clips of him berating reporters, they are women and often women of color. He is the typical bully who is afraid of everyone even though he’s the biggest kid on the playground. So tired of the conservatives who accuse others of being snowflakes and the PC police having absolutely no spine to handle legitimate criticism.
If we think back to the one thing Jaybate was consistent on in his posts it was that the world is rarely one way or the other, it is always both. Are there people who criticize trumps every move without regard for whether they even might agree with it? Yes. Does that mean other critiques are automatically null and void?
I’ve seen @approxinfinity admit he was wrong, ask questions, and appreciate opposing views that he doesn’t share. I’ve seen most other folks on the board do the same thing. But when it comes to Trump there are some who simply refuse to see the plain facts for what they are and I don’t think this post or any other will change that but it’s disappointing as hell and makes me afraid for the future of our country, honestly. A country I love, despite what others may tell you I believe or feel.
To be clear this isn’t just my opinion. I said at my campus liberals are generally more hostile to free speech than conservatives. This isn’t just anecdotes. No, it’s not the population as a whole, it’s UNC undergrads. But the patterns are disturbing nonetheless. https://fecdsurveyreport.web.unc.edu/files/2020/02/UNC-Free-Expression-Report.pdf
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@FarmerJayhawk it is disturbing, I agree. So this study is from Feb 2020 right? I would be very curious what the results of the same study would look like in previous years, for instance pre-Trump.
Hopefully this is a reflection of undergrads perception of the toxicity in Washington, projecting it on their peers who endorse each respective party, and if you subtract Trump and Fox News more extreme bullshit years, i.e. the current faces of the Republican party, liberal students will find a more favorable, tolerant stance toward the other side.
If I assumed that all Republicans rely on Fox for their information I’d have a pretty negative impression as well.
Maybe these voices of tolerance and rational thought from the right need to be heard and seen.
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None of what anyone is raising is new. There have always been vicious smears in politics going back to the Republic in ancient Rome and no doubt beyond. Demagogery did not start with Trump. Defending a president by attacking past presidents did not start with viewers of Fox News. Intolerance of opposing views did not start with liberals OR conservatives. Stupid impeachments for political points started back in the 19th Century, but at least now we are averaging only one per century.
Every student of political rhetoric knows that Americans always think they live in a unique time. Unforeseen challenges, crazy ideas bandied about, doom of our Republic just over the horizon “if we do this…” OR “if we don’t do that…”
Somehow, the country has survived. The worst schism led to civil war, but there were thousands of controversies and even violent flare ups over 250 years. Factionalism was known long before that and this is why the Constitution set up so many obstacles to defeat any attempt for a single faction to impose its will indefinitely.
But there is no defense against a particular faction, or politician, from obtaining or abusing power temporarily. It always depends on what the American people are willing to accept. A majority or strong plurality seems to accept the unacceptable, in the eyes of others, and that perspective wobbles depending on whose ox is gored. There will be back and forth power struggles for time immemorial as the American public imposes its own constraints on what it considers unacceptable.
I am not worried about the effect of Trump and his narcissistic presidency. The Constitution will survive. It survived FDR’s expansion of administative government, but it survived Nixon’s crimes directly targeting the sanctity of democracy. It survived Vietnam and the abject cowardice of Congress in funding trillions of dollars for undeclared wars. It survived HUAC and McCarthy, Grant’s corrupt administration, Jacksonian spoils, Teapot Dome, and the Robber Barons. It even survived Lincoln’s violating it right and left in an effort to save it.
I AM really tired of reading every other day about some asinine thing Trump has said or some crazy approach to an issue that makes it worse, but I am also tired of reading every other day how uncertain it is Democracy will survive him.
The pandemic is changing a lot of things, but I see disruption, not revolution. The problem freaking too many people out is that we are used to prosperity as a country, and anything threatening that seems cataclysmic. It would be quite enlightening for most Americans who are spending their time wringing their hands to pick up a book about the times America actually overcame worse things than a bad president or a snide Congress. The Revolution, the Civil War, World War II, the Depression…
Grab a cup of coffee, get educated about the great leaders of the past who saw us through much darker times. Perhaps we can all find kernels of wisdom that will help light the way forward–or at least let us realize the light is there if we look for it.
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@approxinfinity said in The democratic nominee:
I can get extremely frustrated at @DoubleDD but at least he’s trying to have a conversation with people who have differing opinions which is more than we can say about our idiot president.
- There is growing evidence that he’s not actually trying to have a conversation.
- I called him out for his deflective tactics and he called me an idiot.
I don’t see him being swayed by any amount of evidence on these topics. He is one with the kool-aid.
Now, if we’re talking basketball, thankfully there is common ground and ability to discuss the game with all of its glory and its warts.
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@DoubleDD said in The democratic nominee:
@approxinfinity said in The democratic nominee:
@DoubleDD I do think your post was extremely misguided to @DanR 's point! Pelosi saying people shouldn’t be afraid of Chinatown has nothing to do with Donald Trump’s circus. Completely different and massive orders of magnitude more influential.
Nobody is afraid of china town. The point is Nancy was holding a gathering in a public space without any thought to the virus. And this was mid February.
This is a ridiculous and irrelevant point.
In mid-February, every school in America had full classrooms, there were crowded bars and restaurants, professional and college sports’ arenas filled with fans, offices filled with people working… the democratic candidates were hosting rallies and president himself was holding rallies. It was business as usual EVERYWHERE in America.
In retrospect, it would have been nice if the country had been idling toward social distancing and other measures to diminish the impending epidemic.
But there were no such measures in place in the US in mid-February.
So why exactly are you calling out this interview?
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@Crimsonorblue22 said in The democratic nominee:
@DoubleDD hey duh, see if you can get this right, last time. I’ve been a rep. all my life til trump came along. Voted republican for all the the presidents. Not everything else though, just prez. I’ve had close friends on the other side and I’ve always been a moderate. But then the dumbest, biggest liar, fake Christian, and cheater, etc came along. I can see right thru him. I use to watch the apprentice. I seriously can not find one morally good thing to say about him. The more he opens his mouth the worse he gets. I seriously can’t understand how anyone can believe anything he says. My only understanding is they only watch fox and are spoon fed
. Any person can fact check his lies. I’m shocked you can’t see thru them. Do you watch his press conferences? I like the press! They ask him hard questions that piss him off cause they catch him in lies. Back to your question, I switched to democrat at the KS state fair after the election. I never vote straight party. Done!Amen.
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@mayjay said in The democratic nominee:
None of what anyone is raising is new. There have always been vicious smears in politics going back to the Republic in ancient Rome and no doubt beyond. Demagogery did not start with Trump. Defending a president by attacking past presidents did not start with viewers of Fox News. Intolerance of opposing views did not start with liberals OR conservatives. Stupid impeachments for political points started back in the 19th Century, but at least now we are averaging only one per century.
Every student of political rhetoric knows that Americans always think they live in a unique time. Unforeseen challenges, crazy ideas bandied about, doom of our Republic just over the horizon “if we do this…” OR “if we don’t do that…”
Somehow, the country has survived. The worst schism led to civil war, but there were thousands of controversies and even violent flare ups over 250 years. Factionalism was known long before that and this is why the Constitution set up so many obstacles to defeat any attempt for a single faction to impose its will indefinitely.
But there is no defense against a particular faction, or politician, from obtaining or abusing power temporarily. It always depends on what the American people are willing to accept. A majority or strong plurality seems to accept the unacceptable, in the eyes of others, and that perspective wobbles depending on whose ox is gored. There will be back and forth power struggles for time immemorial as the American public imposes its own constraints on what it considers unacceptable.
I am not worried about the effect of Trump and his narcissistic presidency. The Constitution will survive. It survived FDR’s expansion of administative government, but it survived Nixon’s crimes directly targeting the sanctity of democracy. It survived Vietnam and the abject cowardice of Congress in funding trillions of dollars for undeclared wars. It survived HUAC and McCarthy, Grant’s corrupt administration, Jacksonian spoils, Teapot Dome, and the Robber Barons. It even survived Lincoln’s violating it right and left in an effort to save it.
I AM really tired of reading every other day about some asinine thing Trump has said or some crazy approach to an issue that makes it worse, but I am also tired of reading every other day how uncertain it is Democracy will survive him.
The pandemic is changing a lot of things, but I see disruption, not revolution. The problem freaking too many people out is that we are used to prosperity as a country, and anything threatening that seems cataclysmic. It would be quite enlightening for most Americans who are spending their time wringing their hands to pick up a book about the times America actually overcame worse things than a bad president or a snide Congress. The Revolution, the Civil War, World War II, the Depression…
Grab a cup of coffee, get educated about the great leaders of the past who saw us through much darker times. Perhaps we can all find kernels of wisdom that will help light the way forward–or at least let us realize the light is there if we look for it.
Amen. My only caveat is that I do see this period as more of a threat than you do… But that very well could be recency bias at play.
In fact the inherent biases in all of us — especially the bias to believe that we are less biased than others — are particularly dangerous right now.
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@mayjay I would argue that just because this isn’t new doesn’t mean it doesn’t matter. Additionally, I do think the current situation is a bit more perilous than anything in the recent past going back to Nixon as to me, the guy in charge simply doesn’t care about preserving anything. I can’t think of another president who thought so much for themselves over the country and whose plans were so shortsighted. I’m not that old and my memory isn’t that good but I think everyone from both sides can agree that Trump is DIFFERENT from any leader we’ve had before. His stated goals were to tear the system down and in some places he’s been successful in doing just that. Nothing that can’t be undone long term but not everyone has the luxury of thinking long term, especially right now.
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@bskeet true and what does “more biased” really mean? That’s assuming there is an objective center. Is there one? Does it shift? Which way is it really shifting? Is the political spectrum as we conceive it linearly from right to left an artificial construct that abstracts us away from issues to serve our bipartisan two headed master?
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@DoubleDD said in The democratic nominee:
@benshawks08 said in The democratic nominee:
@DoubleDD I’d say some of that comes with being the president. Obama was accused of being a muslim (as if that was a bad thing), of not being a citizen, of wearing a tan suit…
And the rest of it Trump brings on himself by defiantly refusing to: follow any governmental norms, learn and understand what he can and cannot do as president, and live on the line (or over the line) of what is appropriate behavior from an elected official.
Have you ever participated in a “good debate” because your posts are not that. You don’t defend a position, you deflect, ignore, and accuse others of wrongdoing instead of defending your guy. For example, if a student cheats on a test, accusing another student of also cheating doesn’t prove that kid didn’t cheat whether the accusation is accurate or not. Nor does the defense that some other kid stole money from my desk so cheating isn’t even bad.
I’m sorry you feel that way. Because I feel like I’m going up against perception Created by the media and the Democratic Party. I mean have you ever heard of anybody woman or man black white green blue being wrong about everything. It seems illogical.
If you read one of my posts in this thread (I don’t remember which one) I’m pretty sure I bring up just that point. He isn’t wrong about everything! Even a broken clock is right twice a day! And sure, there is plenty of bogus criticism out there by people that simply hate Trump. My point is that’s not what I’m seeing on this board. Especially during COVID-19 most of the perception has come directly from Trump’s briefings where HE is “controlling” the message. And he has made sure that for every reporter in the room who is likely to ask him difficult, uncomfortable questions, there is another he can go to lob him a softball or lead him right where he wants to go. The media does shape perceptions, but both ways.
Also, we are good from whatever you apologized for last night. I appreciate the apology even though I didn’t even see what was said. I’ve noticed you attempting to keep things civil and do appreciate that work.
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@benshawks08 Don’t think I am minimizing the damage being done to the country.
I certainly was not saying that Trump and his ilk are harmless or that what they do doesn’t matter. He and his pals will make literally billions off of corrupt schemes, including the extraordinary damage the administration is doing to environmental and safety regulations.
What I AM saying is that the system is there to eventually contol those abuses. (It is up to opponents to make that work.) So far, the system has survived.
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@mayjay I agree to a certain extent. We saw the system pressure Nixon into resigning. But we’ve also seen the system fail to use its mechanisms to control this president thanks to, from my perspective, a lack of courage from well meaning conservatives. Politicians from both sides are so caught up with getting reelected, they hesitate to stray from their pack to do what they know and feel is right. I don’t think that has ALWAYS been the case. Yes people with power have always wanted to maintain power but the factionalism is at the very least on a swing right now towards more divided than whatever normal is.
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To be clear this isn’t just my opinion. I said at my campus liberals are generally more hostile to free speech than conservatives. This isn’t just anecdotes. No, it’s not the population as a whole, it’s UNC undergrads. But the patterns are disturbing nonetheless. https://fecdsurveyreport.web.unc.edu/files/2020/02/UNC-Free-Expression-Report.pdf
What follows is conjecture – no study to cite: I would expect to find a similar dynamic play out on a “conservative” campus. That is, there would be similar resistance to opposing perspectives just as there is on a “liberal” campus.
I don’t think the unwillingness to hear challenging views is a “liberal” or “conservative” thing, but rather it’s a human thing.
It’s part of our defense mechanisms and it is amplified when surrounded by like-minded people: aka herd mentality, where an echo chamber effect can happen. (Note: social media platforms make it easy to amplify views that I agree with.) In this kind of setting, the majority view point can overwhelm/eclipse opposing viewpoints.
It can get hostile if a differing view tries to challenge that majority viewpoint. This means that moderates - who often could bring some balance - tend to stay quiet for fear of association and drawing the ire of the majority.
This board is a decent example as well. Most of us can find posters with whom we tend to agree and certain posters with whom we more often disagree. And if there becomes a prevailing or dominant view, then that group can put the opposing side on the defensive.
In order to cultivate an environment where a variety of viewpoints are welcome, I think two very important components are critical thinking and empathy. These are important for those who hold the majority viewpoint as well as the minority viewpoint.
This is what I have tried to do here and elsewhere. It’s surprisingly unintuitive to do this in the moment, given how important it is for us to live harmoniously.
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@approxinfinity said in The democratic nominee:
@FarmerJayhawk it is disturbing, I agree. So this study is from Feb 2020 right? I would be very curious what the results of the same study would look like in previous years, for instance pre-Trump.
Hopefully this is a reflection of undergrads perception of the toxicity in Washington, projecting it on their peers who endorse each respective party, and if you subtract Trump and Fox News more extreme bullshit years, i.e. the current faces of the Republican party, liberal students will find a more favorable, tolerant stance toward the other side.
If I assumed that all Republicans rely on Fox for their information I’d have a pretty negative impression as well.
Maybe these voices of tolerance and rational thought from the right need to be heard and seen.
I think it’s a product of a couple things. First being “reverse polarization,” the phenomenon where the other side looks worse and worse, so people end up voting against the other side vs. for their side. The other major factor is the rise of “woke culture” on college campuses. Where speech is considered violence so it’s ok to counter “violence” with more extreme action. I remember Chancellor Gray-Little was shouted down at KU once for “enabling systematic racism” even though she grew up as a black woman in the Jim Crow South. Madness. These people put so much weight on identity and so little on everything else it drowns out any hope of rational discussion. You can’t bring up liberalism without someone dismissing it as “just a bunch of old, white, cis-men talking to each other.”
Folks on both sides are increasingly unable to grapple with ideas and increasingly able to play the identity card, which stifles real dialogue.
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@FarmerJayhawk said in The democratic nominee:
Folks on both sides are increasingly unable to grapple with ideas
Astute. Grappling with ideas takes effort. Yet, it seems that we are in the midst of a ‘convenience culture’ that seeks to eschew effort wherever possible.
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Wow @FarmerJayhawk and @mayjay the stuff you two have posted is so thought provoking. It is so nice to hear some real soul searching thoughts. Instead of the I hate Trump and the world would be better off without him dribble. So sad that these individuals actually created the Trump, and worse they don’t even know it. Smh.
Yes I’m a dickhead. I love a good banter or argument, but what I love more is when someone stops me in my tracks and makes me think. I personally thank you both. As both have made me think.
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@DoubleDD said in The democratic nominee:
I’m a huge Crenshaw fan. He’s done a couple pods with Joe Rogan I highly recommend.
