Big 12 Conference Going to Help or Hurt KU
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So we’ve argued in the past about how having a strong (or balanced if you don’t like the word strong) conference top to bottom has been both a blessing and a curse. The tough opponents every night toughened KU and prepared them for the tournament or wore them down and prevented them from being healthy at the end of the year.
This year’s Big 12 is NOT that. We can talk about a great win last night but if we are honest, it was pretty much a night off. The bottom of the league just can’t compete with the top 3-4 teams. Will games like these benefit or hurt KU in the long run?
On the plus side, Dotson only played 25 minutes, the bench (well what bench we have at the moment) got in on the action and gained some valuable experience, and our younger players were able to see some success and gain some confidence.
Possible negatives might be that we saw the Jayhawks settling for some jumpers and losing focus for spurts in that game that could kill us vs. a stronger opponent. Will we be ready for our next big game after playing a few conference bottom dwellers?
Will the conference look better with 3 teams with a legitimate shot at the Final 4 or will getting in only 4-5 teams ultimately hurt the reputation of the Big 12?
These have been the meandering lunchtime thoughts of @benshawks08
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I think having games like KU has had against Oklahoma, Tennessee & OSU recently have all had some positive impact on where this team wants to go.
They still have games against Baylor, WVU & Tech on the road which are going to be really tough games to win.
Outside of that I don’t care what the Big-12 does for KU this season. This team can go all the way and I hope we can make it to March healthy.
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It’s a strange year in college basketball. I believe the words spoken by some of the experts in saying there are no uber dominant teams in the country this year.
For the Big 12, we don’t have the quality depth this year matching past years. But what we have at the top all are threatening teams that could go to the Final Four. WVU, Baylor and us. This is easily the best Baylor team Drew has ever produced. And WVU has a lot of potential to improve throughout the year and be a real threat in March.
We may not have one of our best offensive teams, but we have a team capable of playing good defense and it has been a while since we’ve had that.
Even though the bottom of the league may not be as strong as in past years, KU better never sleep in any of these games or we will lose. This KU team has potential to really stink when they don’t come ready to play.
I think all league games are helpful to us, even the lower teams. Every team in our league has us well scouted and that always poses challenges in play. Last night’s game was important to us. Christian really emerged on the road for a monster game to proclaim him as possibly the third best scorer on our team.
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@benshawks08 said “We can talk about a great win last night but if we are honest, it was pretty much a night off.”
I understand why you said that, BUT - we never win at OSU so there’s that. Also, we need some games like this to get in our “new team” rhythm. So I think it was a good win.
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That’s a good question actually. kind of complex , and has lots of twists and turns.
On the one side the Big 12 conference has some teams that are really offensively challenged this year , really bad. Yet Scoring is down across the Nation , there are a lot of offensively challenged teams this year. There are some that say it is because of them moving the line back , percentages are down shooting the three. you have many , many not so good three point shooting teams - having said that and it’s been brought up , use to be in the olden days a fast break consisted of a three on two and fast break lay up. Now a breakout consist of a guy in front of the pack and kicking it back out for a guy spotting up for a three. - -whole different approach then used to be and there are quite a few times where they don’t connect another reason scoring is down… So you have that with offensively challenged teams. so when KU plays these guys, we can be fooled,
We can think dam we got a really good defense , when in reality is - -ARE we that good defensively or is it because these others are just BAD. - I think defensively we are just that good , can be stifling at times. I know we lead the big 12 in defense this season.
So I don’t really think in some aspects the big 12 will hurt us ( KU ) as much in the tourney , as our defense and interior defense of Doke and rebounding can help us match with anyone.
I think in stead of quanity though I would much rather have it kind of what it’s like this year. I like 2-3 - -maybe - - maybe 4 teams that could actually compete and be a serious challenge to a final 4. - -Push comes to shove I think in reality actually 2 - -Baylor & KU. - -West Virginia is really good but have long stretches of not being able to score. Texas Tech just isn’t quite final 4 level this year I think.
Ku has to face really good defense in the league quite often which can only help having gone against really tight defense throughout the year, that has t0 benefit us. So I guess what I’m babbling about here is that I really don’t think our league will hurt us as much as benefitting us because of the defense we face.
As a league overall agai I don’t think we get hurt that bad. the teams kind of offset Good/Bad -we got some really really bad teams & we have some pretty dam good teams. I’m telling you Baylor is legit actually would kind of surprise me if they don’t make the final four and while our bad teams are bad , even they have some good defensive teams
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@jayballer73 I’m sorry - I have to do this.
Baylor will implode sooner or later. They are Baylor. Imploding is what they do. They are Top 5 in the country in imploding.
I have confidence in them.
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@nuleafjhawk Good win beats a bad loss every day of the week for me!
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@nuleafjhawk They won’t go undefeated. That’s for sure. I think we will win in Waco, but hard to see how they lose too many other games in this conference. You are right though that they are likely to surprise us with a loss or two at some point!
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Self wouldn’t have thrown Drew a bone earlier in order to drop the hammer later would he ???
Nah.
Probably nah.
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nuleafjhawk said:
@jayballer73 I’m sorry - I have to do this.
Baylor will implode sooner or later. They are Baylor. Imploding is what they do. They are Top 5 in the country in imploding.
I have confidence in them.
it’s ok for you to feel like you do. - -but I’m telling you that even Coach can’t screw this team up. - -Really , Really good set of guards, actually better then good. - -Very solid rebounding , good free throw shooting, Very solid defense - -what’s not to like. I understand some may wanna be sick thinking Baylor might actually have a rock solid club - but proof is in their body of work
They came into the phog and pretty much man handled Ku on our home floor, They beat Villanova , a team we couldn’t , they went to Florida and pretty much did what they wanted. Just really show me a weakness they have on the floor. - -I said ON THE FLOOR -not the sideline, hard to find a better set of guards. I’m just not to proud to give credit where credit is due - and believe me they got credit due.
I have no problem with you feeling that way , all I’ll say is that from what I’ve seen this year I would almost put more money on them making it then NOT MAKING it
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@nuleafjhawk I keep waiting for that to happen and it hasn’t. They have been consistently good all year for the most part, so I tend to think this Baylor team will be different. We can hope, though.
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@jayballer73 you don’t think we’ve improved? Did you see the ou vs Baylor game?
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@Hawk8086 They remind me a lot of Oklahoma football. Blow everyone away during the regular season and then flop in the postseason. I hope.
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@nuleafjhawk We did absolutely nothing special the first game against Baylor. I mentioned after that game that I thought Self was relying on the building to create enough of an advantage for our guys so he could save some wrinkles for the game at Baylor.
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
@jayballer73 you don’t think we’ve improved? Did you see the ou vs Baylor game?
sure did, and YET they still won didn’t they? - - That’s what good teams do , they can play ugly have poor games and good teams still find ways to win - just like us - w play poorly at times but more times then not Coach and the guys finds just enough to win. - Baylor is good
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
@jayballer73 you don’t think we’ve improved? Did you see the ou vs Baylor game?
where did I say we haven’t improved ? - -I feel and or said that the bottom line probably for serious contention for the title it would be Ku & Baylor as far as making it to the final four
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People who are hoping and or thinking Baylor is going to implode are going to be very dissapointed. They have won 17-18 straight games and have some real impressive wins. They are pretty much a lock for a #1 or #2 seed along with playing in the second weekend of the tournament. In a year where there is not a dominant team they have as good shot as anyone to cut down the nets.
They are an elite defensive team and a way above average offensive team that has some shooters.
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Woodrow said:
People who are hoping and or thinking Baylor is going to implode are going to be very dissapointed. They have won 17-18 straight games and have some real impressive wins. They are pretty much a lock for a #1 or #2 seed along with playing in the second weekend of the tournament. In a year where there is not a dominant team they have as good shot as anyone to cut down the nets.
They are an elite defensive team and a way above average offensive team that has some shooters.
couldn’t agree more. They are just an overall really sound solid team
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@jayballer73 just asking
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Didnt help that Dotson got hurt in game, Garrett was hobbled as well and Self just had no answer for the defensive scheme Baylor used. Baylor made a crap ton of tough shots, some end of shot clock heaving. However watching them this is what they do and they have some unique guys playing out of their mind. Vital is a rebounding defensive pest undersized at the 4 and Gillespie is a former walk on who has developed tremendous skill around the basket and has excellent rebounding instincts as well. Of course they both look good when the 4 guards can wear down anyone spreading the floor and moving the ball. Bandoo, a former Juco has shot lights out off the bench for them.
I think KU will be healthy and prepared for the return game. They have improved a good deal since that defeat. Self is pretty much the best at these kind of games
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Be fun to start 4-1 too
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The Duke loss was the only full strength loss we’ve had.
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@wissox Moss was out for the Dookie game.
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I fully believe if we were to play Duke right now , we beat them on the neutral court.
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I do not compare this Baylor team with any past Baylor team under Drew. This team is legit. If they stay healthy I don’t expect them to implode like other Baylor teams.
All we need to do is win out in league play, including at Baylor. If we can do that we are guaranteed at least a share of the crown. There isn’t a game on our schedule we can’t win because our team this year can travel with defense. Anytime we bring defense we are a tough team to beat, regardless how our offense sputters.
If we focus on defense, and forcing turnovers, and then run out those turnovers, we won’t lose. Give us 20 points a game off of turnovers and we will surely score enough points to win.
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drgnslayr said:
I do not compare this Baylor team with any past Baylor team under Drew. This team is legit. If they stay healthy I don’t expect them to implode like other Baylor teams.
All we need to do is win out in league play, including at Baylor. If we can do that we are guaranteed at least a share of the crown. There isn’t a game on our schedule we can’t win because our team this year can travel with defense. Anytime we bring defense we are a tough team to beat, regardless how our offense sputters.
If we focus on defense, and forcing turnovers, and then run out those turnovers, we won’t lose. Give us 20 points a game off of turnovers and we will surely score enough points to win.
Nice , I heard we lead the big 12 in Defense ,I’m sure Coach has got to be really pleased with the way they have got after it. - -Like so many have said , were just so long, and can - -doesn’t necessarily happen all the time, but we can really get up in their grill. - -
Not sure where we stand Nationally in defense but would have to think top 5-7 ? - yes/no ?
And I agree I’ve been saying this Baylor team is very legit , just SOLID complete team - really good guards - -good tough rebounders. Drew has him a team where they actually defend , they don’t have to rely o that crappy zone that we use to just eat alive. Play pretty decent Defense.
People want to bag on Drew but like others have said and been pointed out. - - What he has done with that program since he has been there is a very long cry from where it was BEFORE he got there. Very easily see this team in the final four.
Having said that - – according to the bookies /odds makes KU is the favorite to win the Tourney with odds 7-1. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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drgnslayr said:
I do not compare this Baylor team with any past Baylor team under Drew. This team is legit. If they stay healthy I don’t expect them to implode like other Baylor teams.
All we need to do is win out in league play, including at Baylor. If we can do that we are guaranteed at least a share of the crown. There isn’t a game on our schedule we can’t win because our team this year can travel with defense. Anytime we bring defense we are a tough team to beat, regardless how our offense sputters.
If we focus on defense, and forcing turnovers, and then run out those turnovers, we won’t lose. Give us 20 points a game off of turnovers and we will surely score enough points to win.
I agree wholeheartedly re Baylor. At this juncture, I don’t think there is much question that they have the best collection of wins of any team in the country - and much better than KU.
Their best wins are Villanova, Arizona, Butler, at TTU, at KU and at FLA. That easily trumps the 'Hawks best wins - Dayton, CO, at Stanford and WVU. And, we know the results of the games against the best opponent we have in common.
While defense does travel, and I would like to think that KU can win every game here on out, including at Baylor, the fact is that KU doesn’t yet have a road win in conference against a likely tournament team. KU still has to play Baylor, WVU, TCU and TTU on the road. Baylor already has road wins against KU and TTU. They clearly have a leg up on the conference crown right now.
But, you are correct - we do control our own destiny for at least a share of the title…
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I think this team is showing signs of pretty much all Self teams (except '08). They haven’t proven to me they can attack an aggressive defense.
Baylor brought great defense into AFH and we folded like a cheap suitcase. Nova played with decent pressure and beat us with less than half the quality of players we have.
Before March I sure hope our coaching staff works on attacking aggressive defense. It really isn’t rocket science but the first thing you have to do is not get rattled. Second, force them to foul on all overplays. Third, someone is open!
Passing well is helpful when attacking aggressive defenses, but most of all you need to drive the ball. Force fouls. You don’t even have to fake it like Marcus Smart. Just carry the ball over their arms, use ball and shot fakes, redirect driving paths. Pay attention to the circle under the basket and draw contact. Move towards a pass coming your way and half the time they were playing the passing lanes and will foul. There are so many ways to beat an aggressive team. We should love to play them and we should thrive with the talent level we have!
It is hard enough to teach college players how to play aggressive defense that they rarely get to the point where they can do it without fouling if a team knows how to attack them. This is where you can go to the NBA file tapes and watch some true masters of defense to learn how it is done!
Get a team that has a game plan of using aggressive defense in foul trouble and they are toast!
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@drgnslayr Not sure if it’s looking back at 08 with the knowledge that they won it all or nostalgia or just that Chalmers and Russ Rob is still my favorite guard combo and Darnell Jackson was also a personal favorite. But it sure seemed like that team loved to compete. They wanted the other teams best shot and played better when they got it. They thrives on pressure defense from the other team and knew they’d broken them when they had to drop into a zone. That team loves it when a team went zone. Might as well have just given up! I still remember self talking about that team and how they always checked their stats after every game and the stat they wanted to know first was how many points their man got. That team lives to scout and game plan. Miss those guys.
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Back to the original question, I’m sure hoping that having some weaker teams keep the top teams from being so beat up and worn down at the end of conference play. Interesting to see how it plays out.
And I’m with the others, Baylor is the real deal this year. Not saying we won’t beat them next time, just that unless something bad happens along the lines of, oh I don’t know, say an Embid getting hurt right before the Big Frickn Dance (grrr, we so would have probably won that year) then I totally see Baylor as an FF team.
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I did this a few weeks ago, so it’s probably changed a bit since then. But here are the average rank and average adjusted efficiency margin for some of the conferences using data from Ken Pom.
Average Rank and Adjusted Efficiency Margin:
B10: Rank - 36, AdjEM - 16.92
BE: Rank - 43, AdjEM - 15.34
B12: Rank - 45, AdjEM - 16.36
ACC: Rank - 67, AdjEM - 12.44
SEC: Rank - 72, AdjEM - 11.58
P12: Rank - 77, AdjEM - 10.86
AAC: Rank - 95, AdjEM - 8.43
WCC: Rank - 128, AdjEM - 5.64
A10: Rank - 130, AdjEM - 4.97
I’d say we’re at worst the 3rd best conference top-to-bottom this season, but we’re pretty top-heavy (3 teams in Ken Pom Top 7), so we probably won’t get more than 4-5 teams into the tournament. B10 looks like the overall best conference, but I’m not sure they have a team I would pick to get to the Final Four. Really it just depends what you use to evaluate a conference.
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I think it will be really tough for us to win at Baylor this year.
I think our best shot is to develop a specific game plan that is unique, based partially off of scouting report and then off of bringing them a shock. This is something Self doesn’t do. We don’t come into games with a tailored plan for anyone, which I think is a mistake.
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Some interesting information this this article (be sure to read the comments - hilarious):
https://www.hookem.com/story/12-big-things-big-12-basketball-waterloo-ahead-shaka-smart-texas-staff/
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@KirkIsMyHinrich Based on those numbers the conference doesn’t look so bad.
Not surprised that the Big 10 is on top of the ratings. Am surprised that Pac 12 is even rated that high. Much like the Big XII, it’s top-heavy, with a couple of teams that were supposed to contend (Washington & Oregon State) going into free fall.
Happy for coach Haase at Stanford and Tad Boyle at Colorado, though. Always nice to see old Jayhawks do well…just not against us.
