Just an obversation



  • BShark said:

    I feel like ku missed out on just as many multi-year guys this time around

    why you think that is?



  • @jayballer73 FBI and looming NCAA uncertainty sure didn’t help.



  • justanotherfan said:

    @jayballer73

    Lets do a quick thought experiment here. Let’s say rather than recruiting DeAndre Ayton, we focus on recruits in the range that you outline, so we are looking at Jeremiah Tilmon, Dan Gafford and Jalen Hill. All three of those guys signed in state.

    Tilmon has been solid so far, 8 points, 4 boards as a freshman, 10 and 6 as a sophomore.

    Gafford has been better. 12 and 6, then 17 and 9.

    Hill has been disappointing. He missed his freshman season with the China shoplifting incident. Averaged 4 and 6 this past season.

    So we target all three of those guys. Gafford is the best, but good luck getting him out of state and away from Arkansas.

    Same story with Tilmon and Mizzou.

    Maybe we land Hill, but he’s easily the worst of the three and he likely has very little impact either last season or this past season even if he doesn’t get suspended.

    And that’s assuming we get him. We could just as easily recruit that next group and still strike out because so many of the guys in that range stay regionally close to home/ in state.

    We don’t gain a recruiting advantage by pursuing that range of recruits, and we likely don’t get impact players like you will recruiting the top 20-25.

    We basically become a higher level Iowa State.

    Thanks I’m done - -no need to continue - -, if you refer to posts such as BShark saying we missed out on just as many of the lower tier this year - just like I ask him - -I’ll ask you- -why you think that is? --Because 80 % of it is these players are getting tired of being called upon as option 3-4-5-6 - -how many OTHER players did we try to land before we ended up as some say scratching the bottom - -and we misses - -these kids have gotten to the point of just saying enough is enough - To many people seem to think these middle to lower recruits will piss themselves if KU’s name is even mentioned about recruiting them - News Flash that Boat has done sailed. - -They feel they deserve the same type of recruitment as any other - and why shouldn’t they? - - -Does Mitch come to mind? - look at him. - -He by far is not elite. - But I’ll take Mitch any day - -he loves the school - -bust his ass every time out - -he isn’t one of these OAD’S bitches that only play defense when they feel like it- - -Refer to Quentin Grimes - - LaGerald Vick - and countless others - -How many of these OAD’S do you see giving their body up diving for the loose Balls? - -or how about one of these precious shit’s trying to take a charge? - That’s Mitch - you know him - -a guy that is willing to do whatever it takes - -to get the TEAM win.

    Or I’ll take Ochai anyday - -guys that are will to commit 100 % day in - - day out - thing is we are starting to lose out on these types of players - - WHY ? - -already told you. - OAD’S are fine the whole thing is - -we need to put more effort to recruiting the 40-50-60 type ranked - -you can find some hidden treasures - -say like oh I DUNNO how about a Frank Mason - -OR - -Devonte Graham - - what about McBride , ya we got him - -he will be fine - -I’ll take him - the quality player, - but if you don’t try to recuit these guy until option b-c-d-e - it is gonna come back and bit you right square in the ass.



  • KUSTEVE said:

    @HighEliteMajor It’s pitiful because it’s overrated. How does Dook not cut the nets down with 3 freshman lottery picks? How does the Squid out recruit the whole world for a decade, and have 1 national championship to show for it? Why did Bill’s worst years happen when he started the most freshmen? There are two elements that are always going to hold down the effectiveness of a highly ranked freshman - 1) inexperience and 2) motivation. In my books, we’ve had 1 great OAD, a few decent OADS, and more than our share of of overrated, immature, entitled kids. I use the Isaiah Moss example again … ( please don’t tell me how lucky we are not to have got him. he would’ve been better than what we got with RJ). Here you have a senior, who averaged more points than Q in less minutes, and had a higher 3 point shooting percent than anyone on our team ( considering we are almost certain to start a guy at the 2 who averaged 24.5% from 3 last year ). This guy had 3 years experience in the B10, and he visited us, and we didn’t offer him. We passed.

    Experience wins championships. Experience and dedication to the team, to the program is what cuts the nets down. Tech brought in 2 outstanding seniors from other programs, and almost cut down the nets. The last two years, our best players in the tournament ( Dedric/Malik ) both came to the table with experience and skills. Now, it doesn’t work every time ( Charlie/KJ ), but it works enough that a team that has to try to recruit in Lubbock, Tx made the national championship game after losing 5 seniors the year before. Contrast that with the recruiting fiasco that will forever be known as the " RJ Circus".

    Oh but we could offer Isaiah right? - -cause we were to focused on RJ - -ya right - -we see where that got us huh? - BURNED - - -AGAIN. - - remind me again where did Isaiah sign again? - - not here right? - -and where did the kid that you bypass Isaiah for where did he sign again - - -BINGO - - NOT HERE - -these kids are not waiting anymore. - -So instead of landing that really solid player with experience - -we get ZELCH - again. - -we have got to just start doing better at recruiter the -these middle tier kids - one more time listen very closely to what I’m saying I’m not saying quit recruiting the OAD’s - all I’m saying is got to better with these kids a little further down the line GEEZ



  • Why don’t we put an end to all the recruiting BS (and arguments)?

    Let’s initiate a High School draft. The crappiest college gets first pick. The National Champ gets last pick. Then the team with the best coach wins the damn super bowl seemingly every other year…wait. Sorry - got off track. But the principal is the same.



  • BShark said:

    @jayballer73 FBI and looming NCAA uncertainty sure didn’t help.

    sure didn’t hurt Arizona OR Louisville as bad - -sure they dropped some but they rebounded - -



  • @jayballer73 Maybe Ochai committed to KU because in part KU is close to where his family is at (KC?). Also, we have talked about the fail rate of these players. Do we really trust that Self and his staff have great ability to recognize only the multi-year lower ranked players that will be awesome?

    Going off Self’s recruits at KU, and not counting any player that stayed 3-4 years but was highly ranked. So, basically all 5 stars are out, because why include them in this exercise when they don’t fit.

    Great: Mason, Graham, Morris, Morris

    Average: Releford, Brady, Reed, Tyshawn

    Uh: Tharpe, Jamari, Lucas, Greene, Vick

    TO BE DETERMINED: Mitch, Garrett, Ochai and Dave.

    Lower rated players that ran away/didn’t contribute much: Tyrone Appleton, Mario Little, Quintrell Thomas, Royce Woolridge, Peters, White, Adams, Frankamp

    Okay I lied…

    5*/top rated players that stayed awhile: Sherron, Chalmers, Rush, Aldrich, TRob, Perry, Selden, Udoka, Dotson

    Svi is an interesting case. The one site that actually rated him had him as a 5*. Anyway I wasn’t sure where to put him, so I abstained from categorizing him for this.

    Note that our best two players on the upcoming team, are five stars that are a SO and SR respectively.

    I’m going to take the very controversial stance that talent and player retention matter.



  • jayballer73 said:

    BShark said:

    @jayballer73 FBI and looming NCAA uncertainty sure didn’t help.

    sure didn’t hurt Arizona OR Louisville as bad - -sure they dropped some but they rebounded - -

    Well they had one off year. KU has had one off year, let’s see what happens in 2020? Maybe KU bounces back like they did now that Self has stated he is LOCKED in to KU (firmly believe rumors of Self leaving hurt with JRE).



  • @jayballer73 If Isaiah Moss couldn’t handle Fran, he would have snapped under Bill imo.



  • @BShark You might have a point. But, he signed with Musselman at Arkansas, who is a mad man. So, we’ll see how it works out. Hopefully, Bill won’t be apologizing for his behavior like he did last year.



  • BShark said:

    @jayballer73 If Isaiah Moss couldn’t handle Fran, he would have snapped under Bill imo.

    kinda like Quentin



  • @jayballer73 Can’t disagree Q was charmin soft. Sometimes you don’t know until you get them in the program. That they didn’t offer Moss says a lot imo.



  • @BShark he did knock the💩 out of a lot of guys on his charges. He dove on loose balls. I thought he was slow thinking, not a OAD but not a bad player. A couple of years was what he needed. He was good in the USA games. Bad people in his head! Jmo



  • Crimsonorblue22 said:

    @BShark he did knock the💩 out of a lot of guys on his charges. He dove on loose balls. I thought he was slow thinking, not a OAD but not a bad player. A couple of years was what he needed. He was good in the USA games. Bad people in his head! Jmo

    He was terrible, objectively. Might have been okay as a JR/SR but that was never happening.



  • @BShark I said, in a snotty tone, jmo.



  • @BShark He was Wayne Selden in his freshman year.



  • His jr year should be nice, Grimes just took a redshirt to get there so we don’t get to watch him develop.



  • KUSTEVE said:

    @BShark He was Wayne Selden in his freshman year.

    Selden was a bit better. Rebounded better, passed better and probably most importantly was about 10% better from 2 pt range on a full 1 shot more a game. The advanced stats indicate Selden was a hefty bit better than Q offensively fwiw.



  • @BShark No doubt. Wayne was also more consistent. But, if you’re looking for a freshman comp, Wayne is as close as I can remember. And remember, Wayne got much better. I’m not convinced Q will, although his scoring average will probably go up.



  • I’m playing devil’s advocate against myself.

    One big problem with those mid-tier players… they want to play, too, and they expect to play wherever they commit, even if it’s a blue blood school. We are seeing so many of these players transfer now. Consider them OAD without even the chance of bringing much in that one year.

    Q fit that bill. I like the young man but I can’t see how anyone saw him as a 5-star recruit, or even close. The one big compliment I always heard about him was about his size. But when did he ever use that size to make a play? What I saw was a mid-tier player that was fortunate to get over-hyped. He now leaves a HOF’r coach, blue blood program… and he was probably guaranteed PT!

    I often wonder how our recruiters actually judge talent. How much of it is just recruiting on the rankings? I think if I was a recruiter I’d want to interview recruits’ friends as well as their parents. Most of the time their coaches are responsible for the over-hype. How about interviewing some of the players they played against? Opposing coaches? How about looking over footage very carefully? Is it impressive when they dunk over a 5’8" guy with no hops?

    And can our coaches even spot when a recruit has been coached up well? I know this sounds like I’m blowing my own horn, but I dominated the boards from the 7th grade on because I sealed off the boards. It’s not friggin’ rocket science. And it doesn’t take too much talent to get a feel for where the rebounds are going to go. How hard is it to hedge the ball handler on their right side when you know that’s his only move?

    I love D1 ball but I’m sick and tired of all the excuses for these guys not playing very elementary play. I know I seem to pick on Q… but that guy just seemed lost out there and often was more a spectator than a player. I’m sick of watching that kind of basketball.

    I’m yawning until Charles Barkley has a son who his dad coaches up and he signs with us. Wake me up for that! Ha…

    Or get me the recruit that has some size and athleticism who knows he is a long shot to make it in the NBA… so he wants to pour every inch of himself into his basketball career, which will last 4-years at Kansas. He’ll leave his guts on the court every night, diving for balls, because he isn’t worried about saving his valuable body parts for the league in the immediate future. Give me the guy who is playing for bragging rights, so he can tell his kids someday how he crushed 5-star players in his junior and senior year.

    I don’t see another National Championship on the horizon for us… not until we get a team of guys who truly “buy-in” to Self. It only takes one or two guys to not “get it” and we go home early again.

    We should start a new thread… “Which players bought-in to Self ball?” I think that will tell us everything we need to know. Before long… I’m pretty sure we see how many of the OADs never bought in. They just played at a certain level, then moved on 8 months later, or whatever.

    Sherron Collins is on my all-time greats list because his guts were always hanging out there. Forget the 2008 NC without him. Where do we find more of him?

    Did we ever heal after the 2012 NC game? Wasn’t that the year Cal won the trophy with his OADs? We would have won that game without a single McDs AA had it not been for the dominance of the unibrow, who was truly a freak talent, off the charts. I don’t know that Self ever recovered from that. It seems like that was when he really stepped it up a notch to go after OADs. He was convinced the game would be controlled by OADs after that. It really hasn’t worked out that way.

    I have time to think now, between the rain drops, watching my tomato plants grow! hahaha



  • MESSAGE TO BIG MAC:

    You’ve got the hustle. You’ve got the desire. You know you have to learn how to seal off the boards. Get to know your butt. Bend your knees, lower your center of gravity, and learn how to stick your butt onto other people. Heck… why wait until practice? Get your butt lowered and stick it on your friends and start backing up. Push them away from the vanilla pudding in the cafeteria. Get those arms dangling sideways like a fence. Once you learn how to use your butt right, you usually don’t even need your fence because you keep your opponents off balance by pushing them out with your butt.

    Go get your hands on as much Charles Barkley footage as you can. Learn from the master. Learn where most of the rebounds go. And learn to spot the shot and have a feel for where it will hit the rim.

    Do this and let’s see how many minutes you earn this year when you are averaging a rebound per minute. It can be done. You’ve got the size and no one in D1 even knows how to rebound, including your teammates.



  • @BShark he also tried hard and had a little nasty… Grimes was ultra soft.



  • @Fightsongwriter The kid was born with thick legs, and short arms. He has real trouble moving his feet to stay in front of defenders, and those short arms don’t help to defend, either. Offensively, he has a pretty decent jumper, but he doesn’t seem to be able to jump more than two inches. He lacks the quickness to get by defenders, hence he racks up the charges. He’s a pretty good passer, but when he doesn’t have the ball, he just stands there like a lump on a log. I highly doubt he will be effective at the next level.



  • I have said before that the issue for KU recruiting lower ranked players is location. Some want us to be like Michigan State, ignoring the fact that Michigan HS basketball produces dozens more D1 recruits than Kansas does. Izzo can pursue an OAD, then fall back to recruit a local kid. Self doesn’t have that option, because often there is no local kid to recruit.

    If there were, I would see this as viable option. But without more local talent, it just isn’t happening.



  • @KUSTEVE But other than that he is terrific! 😉



  • FYI North Carolina insiders feel Jalen Wilson will pick KU after his visit to UNC…



  • BeddieKU23 said:

    FYI North Carolina insiders feel Jalen Wilson will pick KU after his visit to UNC…

    Jalen is just saying he will make his decision SOMETIME this month. Michigan people think that it was HUGE that they got through the visits to N Carolina & KU without Jalen committing on the spot. Jalen said he will not make a decision the next couple of days but will sit down with the family and then decide.

    Being said that since Juwan being able to have an in home visit & and them having the last shot , for sure plays in their favor - -saying all Juwan needs to do is sell Jalen on what he already loves - - Michigan. - they think the longer he waits - - the more it levels the field for them -they think they have a really good shot at him re-committing. Mama has always been a big fan of Juwan’s

    They have some pretty valid points. - -I’ve been thinking myself and still do think - - with Michigan hiring Howard I just feel he will end up re-committing to Michigan , it’s gonna be awhile before we hear probably sounds like a week or more - -who knows - just don’t get a good feel. - - Although one little side note , Jalen did state that his North Carolina visit was AMAZING- don’t really remember him saying anything about his KU visit - just don’t get a good feel. – I think he will end up staying put at Michigan when it is all said and done. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY



  • @jayballer73

    I don’t get the feeling he’s going back to Michigan at all. They burned bridges not telling him the coach was leaving. Not only did his coach leave, his lead recruiter did as well.

    Anything can happen. We see parents being in control of the situation more then the kids all the time and recently that seems to be a theme with kids KU is recruiting.

    We’ll see, I think we’ve been snake bite too many times in this recruiting cycle to feel confident in anyone coming here which is what I’m sensing from your comments. Hopefully a decision is made soon and its a positive one



  • BeddieKU23 said:

    @jayballer73

    I don’t get the feeling he’s going back to Michigan at all. They burned bridges not telling him the coach was leaving. Not only did his coach leave, his lead recruiter did as well.

    Anything can happen. We see parents being in control of the situation more then the kids all the time and recently that seems to be a theme with kids KU is recruiting.

    We’ll see, I think we’ve been snake bite too many times in this recruiting cycle to feel confident in anyone coming here which is what I’m sensing from your comments. Hopefully a decision is made soon and its a positive one

    ya, this cycle has sucked - - Just think Juwan making good connection - -we need a quick decision, I’m like their fan base in respect - - if this drags out - -the better odds of them getting him back are. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY



  • @jayballer73 True this cycle was taxing but I think at the end of the day, we ended up with some good ones. Kids that can shoot, and good kids that should stick around and graduate. Program players. 🙂





  • @dylans There’s a rationale for it. Loads of experience. We might not have 1 freshman starter next year. Offensively, we sure won’t look like the 30th best team, let alone the 3rd. Defensively, we could be as good as anyone in the country. So, who knows?



  • dylans said:

    Anyone buying this?

    https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/26902770/kansas-michigan-way-too-early-top-25-2019-20

    KU preseason #3

    No I don’t/ - I think that’s some high , I’m thinking more on the line of 5th or so. - - Until we find the answer to our SF and our 2 guard - -yes we have bodies but to really put it to rest and solidify - it’s a crap shoot with who we have right now. - - question is do we have a legit 3 at this point? - a legit 3 that makes us justifies us a being ranked 3rd in the Nation. - you fill these two needs that we really still have need for -get us a shooter then ya. - Right now I think our outside shooting is suspect , especially on top of the fact that the 3 pt line being moved back - -w struggles last year little lone them moving it back. - -If we get Wilson - -we persuade Walker then for sure #3 - until then I think more like a # 5 - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY



  • @jayballer73 We have answers at the 2, and at the 3. Both Marcus and Ochai were playing great, and then both got injured. No doubt we’re thin, and need more depth at guard, but that starting lineup is primo, imo.



  • KUSTEVE said:

    @dylans There’s a rationale for it. Loads of experience. We might not have 1 freshman starter next year. Offensively, we sure won’t look like the 30th best team, let alone the 3rd. Defensively, we could be as good as anyone in the country. So, who knows?

    It’s going to be a fun year, imo.



  • Weren’t we preseason #1 last year? 🏀🤬 down he went, so did we! I’m not a huge fan of transfers, Tarik black huge exception!



  • KUSTEVE said:

    @jayballer73 We have answers at the 2, and at the 3. Both Marcus and Ochai were playing great, and then both got injured. No doubt we’re thin, and need more depth at guard, but that starting lineup is primo, imo.

    Oh buddy if your counting on Marcus as an answer then we are screwed plain and simple v- - defense wise ya - - offense no fricking way - - No, we don’t have the answer at this point sorry



  • Crimsonorblue22 said:

    Weren’t we preseason #1 last year? 🏀🤬 down he went, so did we! I’m not a huge fan of transfers, Tarik black huge exception!

    Jeff Withey was okay



  • @BShark yes and Kevin young!



  • I forgot! Probably more🤔



  • Crimsonorblue22 said:

    I forgot! Probably more🤔

    Malik was eventually good. Most don’t work out well.



  • Malik should’ve come here to start with and stayed awhile.



  • @jayballer73 Garrett is an answer offensively if it’s the Garrett the few games before his injury when he was driving and finishing with confidence and authority. I think he had 3 straight 20+ point games before the high ankle sprain so the light had come on for him offensively. He was also shooting the 3 ball with more confidence at that point as well.

    This is a team that’s going to be relying very heavily on defense anyway and Marcus Garrett is the best defender on this team by a big margin. Don’t be shocked when he win B12 DPOY next season.



  • @jayballer73 You’ll learn to appreciate Marcus in time. We didn’t appreciate RussRob either…at first.



  • I’m ok with a single transfer player not a team of them. If Vick would’ve stayed gone we would’ve had Sam, Charlie, Dedric and KJ. That’s just too much of a pieced together squad. We have had several solid transfer including Withey, Young, Black and Newman but they weren’t on a team with 3 or 4 others at the same time.



  • @Texas-Hawk-10 Exactly.



  • @Texas-Hawk-10 exactly, Marcus Garrett is ahead of where Releford and RusRob were as sophomores IMO. If you read the book beyond the Phogg, RusRob wasnt allowed to take 3s after the first 5 minutes of the half because he was so bad at shooting. Releford averaged less than 5 points per game before the second half of his junior year.



  • kjayhawks said:

    @Texas-Hawk-10 exactly, Marcus Garrett is ahead of where Releford and RusRob were as sophomores IMO. If you read the book beyond the Phogg, RusRob wasnt allowed to take 3s after the first 5 minutes of the half because he was so bad at shooting. Releford averaged less than 5 points per game before the second half of his junior year.

    Easy, partner. I would suggest that we’re not talking the same league here.

    Garrett has shot roughly 25% from three. That is historically bad. You will not find another KU perimeter player that low after two full seasons as a rotation player, at least in the Self era.

    Releford was 37.8% as a freshman, and 32.5% as a sophomore. Of course, was over 40% his senior season. And he avg. 7.2 pts in the last half of his JR year, not 5, fyi. He was the fifth option there, after TRob, TT, EJ, and Withey. Releford was a stout role player. Great D. Garrett could be Releford if his shooting got more acceptable.

    RRob was 28.6% as a freshman and 32.2% as a sophomore. And stayed in the 32% range thereafter.

    As a comparison, Wiggins was 34%.

    As far shooting, when you dip below that 35% level, you are below average.

    But when you go below 30%, you’re scraping toward the bottom of the bell curve. Below 30% is really bad. Garrett is 25% for his career and has made no upward move from that purgatory level. And there is no hope gleaned from his shooting form.

    We all remember RRob being really bad from three his freshman season. But he shot better in that season than Garrett ever has.

    And this is a bigger deal. The eye test. Garrett has horrible – just horrible – mechanics. And he’s NEVER shot well, not even in high school as someone posted.

    Back in RRob and Releford’s day, Self was a control freak on threes. He’s evolved his approach on threes. Night and day, almost.

    Garrett has the worst mechanics from outside of any KU perimeter player I can remember.

    All of this Garrett discussion brings me to what I think is the key here – Garrett can absolutely help us win. He has helped us win. I wouldn’t trade him away. He’s a key cog. The other elements of his game are so good, that if the shooting spikes a bit, look out. I love having Garrett on this team. Self playing him in some key situations last season won us some games. His role just needs to be managed based on his poor shooting (which is a critical, critical element because it can hamper your entire offense, because of how the defense handles that poor shooter).



  • Texas Hawk 10 said:

    @jayballer73 Garrett is an answer offensively if it’s the Garrett the few games before his injury when he was driving and finishing with confidence and authority. I think he had 3 straight 20+ point games before the high ankle sprain so the light had come on for him offensively. He was also shooting the 3 ball with more confidence at that point as well.

    This is a team that’s going to be relying very heavily on defense anyway and Marcus Garrett is the best defender on this team by a big margin. Don’t be shocked when he win B12 DPOY next season.

    oh for sure you won’t get ANY argument about the defensive end. - Offensive he is handicapped - -you going to see the defensive player not playing his as tight - -give him a little more space forcing to shoot from the outside and taking away the drive on him - -that happens he is screwed unless he has magically developed his shot



  • KUSTEVE said:

    @jayballer73 You’ll learn to appreciate Marcus in time. We didn’t appreciate RussRob either…at first.

    roflmao - – Ha that’s good buddy I like you - -only one little problem. - -I do respect I by far have nothing against him. - But his not the answer - he is a huge handicap on the offensive end of the floor. - Just like some many said last year when he was in - it allows the other team to double on other players. - -were playing 4-5 when he is on the floor on the offensive end

    Hell I don’t how many times I was sticking up for Marcus last year , no man do even try to begin to say I don’t respect Marcus. - On the DEFENSIVE END Marcus is the best defensive player we got. - Offensively - - ummm not so much


Log in to reply