FUNDAMENTALS VS ATHLETICISM
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Athleticism cannot be taught, as @Woodrow observed.
You have to have the desire to work and get better, like @approxinfinity said.
The challenge is how much of a player’s natural athleticism they can tap into during a game. Does your speed translate when you have the ball in your hands. Can you tap into your maximum vertical. Do your reactions match your physical quickness.
People often say Larry Bird was not athletic. That’s untrue. Larry Bird was athletic. But more important than being athletic is that Larry Bird could access his athleticism in full on the basketball floor. You ever notice how some guys are fast, or strong, or quick, but can’t really do anything with those skills in game? Larry Bird was the opposite of that. His balance, strength, speed and quickness all blended together perfectly on the basketball floor. You can watch his old highlights on Youtube and see how he’s never out of control, never off balance, could finish or pass with either hand. All of that is athleticism and Bird could access every bit of it.
Was he as athletic as Dominique Wilkins? No, but Larry Bird dunked on his share of people. He wasn’t as feared, but because he was so dangerous with either hand, you couldn’t really line him up until he committed one way or another. Bird was an above average athlete, even for the NBA.
Compare that to someone like Andrew Wiggins. Obviously, Wiggins is a rare athlete. But there are times where I get the sense that he can’t access all of his speed and explosiveness in a useful way on the court, so his basketball production is roughly equal to that of a much lesser athlete because he can’t use all of it.
The true greats are both very athletic and also very skilled fundamentally. Kobe Bryant’s athleticism was well documented, but it was his footwork that many coaches pointed to as elite. Same for a guy like Steph Curry, who can get into his shooting motion in a heartbeat from basically any position.
If I had to rate the importance of different athletic skills, I would rate them in this order:
Balance, Coordination, Strength, Explosiveness, Quickness, Speed, Jumping Ability
You can’t point me to a great player that does not have exceptional balance. You may be able to find great players that were not exceptional leapers, or did not have elite speed or quickness, but I doubt you can find a great player that did not have the first two.
And if you find all seven? Well, that’s where you find Michael Jordan, Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, Shaquille O’Neal, Tim Duncan, Lebron James, Kobe Bryant, Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, basically a who’s who of All Time Greats.
Why are the first two so important? Well, without coordination and balance, you have no chance to access the other skills. You can’t access your speed if you are off balance. Your strength and quickness are worthless without coordination. Ever seen anybody try to jump when they don’t have a good base?
Why is leaping ability rated so low to me? Most of basketball is played horizontally. The ability to go vertical is great, but you have to be able to play horizontally for that to even matter. I would sooner take a guy with great coordination and balance than a guy with a 50 inch vertical, because the coordination and balance convert more to basketball skills.
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@justanotherfan
what you said! Do you consider Embiid to be balanced? Seems very top heavy to me. Probably limits a lot of bigs from making the greatest discussion. Say what you will about his girth, Shaq was very balanced.
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What if “athleticism” means OAD? You can’t teach athleticism… but is it possible we find more “diamonds in the rough” with great athleticism and will stick around for more than one season?
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Do sportswriters screw up sometimes and count “body size/quality” as athleticism?
I remember reading what an athlete Q was… I saw the body, but I didn’t think he really showed us much athleticism… opinions?
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I do think athleticism can be “adjusted” substantially while in college. Hudy has proven that. Players like Doke and Big Mac not only lost a ton of weight… they also became more athletic in that process.
I remember a long time ago… studying “fast twitch” and “slow twitch” strength. I’m of the opinion that fast twitch can (partially) be trained into the body and improved.
I’d like to see performance charts on guys like Doke. When he got here, versus now. I think we would all be shocked!
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@drgnslayr sure didn’t work on dedric, he was the most unathletic guy I’ve seen score as much as he did.
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Well…
I guess I see things differently than a lot of people.
We’ve had some freak athletes that were - conservatively - not great basketball players.
We’ve had some hard nosed “fundamentalists” that gave their heart and soul for KU.
Bing…Bing…Bing… - GIVE ME THE FUNDAMENTALS GUY EVERY DAY!!!
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approxinfinity said:
@justanotherfan
what you said! Do you consider Embiid to be balanced? Seems very top heavy to me. Probably limits a lot of bigs from making the greatest discussion. Say what you will about his girth, Shaq was very balanced.I think Embiid is surprisingly agile and coordinated for a man his size. I do wonder if that size also wears on his bones and joints, which causes him to be injured. I would be curious if he lost 30 or 40 pounds (and sacrificed the strength that comes with it), if he could stay a little bit healthier. He was 250 when he arrived at KU, but bulked up to about 265. Then the injuries started. He’s about 280 now. I wonder if he dropped back down to 250, if that might make him more durable?
Big guys tend to miss the greatest discussion because they often are not as skilled. The truly great big men (Shaq, Hakeem, Wilt, Russell, Duncan, Kareem) are big, athletic and skilled. Most big men get by with only two of those three, although some of the current guys in the league are really challenging that.
Young Shaq was an athletic combination I’m not sure we have ever seen. Balanced, coordinated, obscenely strong, quicker than many realized, faster than should have been allowed, and as explosive as anyone. Even as he aged and wasn’t in as good of shape, he still kept the explosiveness into the mid 2000s, and never lost the balance or coordination. He could drop step and spin faster than any big man I have ever seen.
Perhaps young Wilt was on par with that, but there just isn’t enough video from those days to make a fair comparison. If that’s the case, though, I can see why Wilt averaged 50 and 20 one year.
It’s also tough for big guys to maintain the coordination and balance as they grow. The higher center of gravity makes it much tougher on them. That’s part of what made Kareem so amazing. He was graceful even at his height. Hakeem was the same way.
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justanotherfan said:
Why is leaping ability rated so low to me? Most of basketball is played horizontally. The ability to go vertical is great, but you have to be able to play horizontally for that to even matter. I would sooner take a guy with great coordination and balance than a guy with a 50 inch vertical, because the coordination and balance convert more to basketball skills.
There are quick hops and slower hops, too. I like the guys that get up in the air quickly more than the guys who get up a little higher, but aren’t as quick to get there.
Back in my ball days, I was in a gym with the “X’ man, Xavier McDaniels. From a flat foot stance he leaped up and grabbed an 11-foot platform. Sure impressed me and I understood why he lead the country in rebounds at 6’7”!
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Hakeem is the blue print for the modern big man in the NBA. If anyone doubts just how great Hakeem was, I have him #2 behind Wilt for greatest centers ever, go and watch Olajuwon in the 1995 playoffs. Hakeem embarrassed 1995 MVP David Robinson in the Western Conference Finals in 6 games and then dominated Shaq when Houston swept Orlando in the NBA Finals that year.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Right on with Hakeem. I would argue that Hakeem was the greatest of all time. If I could pick one center in his prime, playing a game right now, it would be him.
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Hakeem = “shake and bake!” Remember that?
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I’m curious to see Dedric at the next level. I think he will turn out to be more athletic than we thought. I think his mentality was a big part of him “lumbering” down court. He seems to have a lot of “chill” attitude prevailing in his consciousness.
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@drgnslayr X was a tremendous rebounder…just fierce about it.
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drgnslayr said:
Do sportswriters screw up sometimes and count “body size/quality” as athleticism?
I remember reading what an athlete Q was… I saw the body, but I didn’t think he really showed us much athleticism… opinions?
I agree… Prognosticators were foaming at the mouth about his athleticism and versatility, none of which I saw.
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Marco said:
I agree… Prognosticators were foaming at the mouth about his athleticism and versatility, none of which I saw.
Grimes’ HS video is FULL of him displaying his athleticism. It’s not like we only see his athleticism in dunk contests, but never in game. It’s there in his video.
Let’s start with the dunk at the 0:09 mark. It’s got everything you look for in a finish for a guard. Explosion, power, control.
The step back three at 0:13 shows the balance and body control you want from a shooter.
The ball fake at 0:17 is another example of superb coordination and balance.
The dribble moves he shows from 0:23 - 0:27 show great balance as well. He’s getting bumped but keeps control of the ball and makes great passes, including one with his left hand (remember, I look for guys that can work off either hand).
We have a nice lefty finish at the 0:40 mark off a dribble move, and a left handed block at 0:43. For a guard to block a shot with his off hand gets very high marks from me. Guards typically only block shots with their dominant hand, so going off hand is impressive. He claims a righty block moments later.
Check the height on his dunk at 1:20. He’s almost head level with the rim. He can access some good vertical in game.
At 1:27 he Euro steps across the lane and hits a soft jumper across his body. That’s extreme body control and coordination.
Breaks out a filthy inside out move with the left hand leading to a lefty finish at 2:01. The very next play we see another dunk with his head almost at rim level again.
At 2:08 he snaps a behind the back bounce pass that’s on time and on target to hit his man in stride.
At 2:21 makes maybe the most impressive play of the clip with a dunk, catching the ball of the glass. He does it one handed. In traffic. With basically a drop step. You can see that he slows down before exploding up to finish.
He shows it all in that clip. Balance. Coordination. Explosiveness. Speed. Quickness. Strength. Jumping ability.
Uses both hands. Good body size and build. Checks every box.
And then we saw very little of that at KU. I am as confused as anyone, because we see it all in the video.
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@justanotherfan He was just too slow for the P5 level. Now, the reasons for this can be guessed at. There were rumors about his worth ethic/eating habits, and being annoyed that he had to spend a year in college.
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Thanks for your post. Very informative.
Do you think our program sometimes inhibits players from showing their true game?
Or maybe he has just been blown away by the crowds and publicity. Maybe he has stage fright?
Maybe he played the entire year “trying not to screw up?”
I’m at a loss on this one myself. I think he has tanked his future from this year and needs to bounce out of it for a resurrection! I hope he does that. If he turns pro, he’s going to have a rough time getting anywhere, but it will be a testament of his fortitude.
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Without knowing him or having insider knowledge, its anyone’s guess why Grimes struggled the way he did.
I think Self has an idea for certain roles for certain players, and this year, Grimes’ role was a floor spacing shooter. We rarely saw him handle the ball out front, and, because the team relied so heavily on Dedric, rarely got into transition, where Grimes could really shine. Whether that is a system problem, a program problem, or a Grimes problem I do not know. But it was clearly a problem this season.
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Agree strongly on Self RE player roles. He wasn’t going to play Grimes at the point when he had Dotson. But Grimes had played the point his whole life before last year. Kinda made it a bad fit.
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The times grimes did have the ball in his hands did not work out well.i still think a player can play wherever they put you. I remember him dribbling the ball out of bounds, unguarded. To slow hitting open guys, and charging more than making plays. Free throws? Can’t blame those on Self. I don’t think he gave up, he dove on the floor. Self gave him more chances than he usually gives players.
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Grimes is still young. He wasn’t ready for the College Level in the role he was put into. What we saw on tape and on TV of him coming into College wasn’t the player we got. He was exposed in a lot of ways. Normally those kids come back to school and work on things. Grimes didn’t. Oh well. His choice
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@BShark The 2 point guard approach worked with Devonte and Frank…but I’m not sure they would’ve done as well if Dedric was in that lineup.
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@BShark The problem I have with this narrative is that Self loves the multi-guard attack as we all know and there were plenty of instances Grimes had the ball in his hands. Plenty of times he brought it up the floor.
I’d theorize that if he’d performed better as the “second PG,” Self would’ve given him additional playmaking opportunities…and I feel like he had plenty of on the ball ops to shine as it was.
I have a hard time blaming Self for this one.
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@ajvan Definitely not putting it all on Self. As mentioned Grimes was simply too slow. It’s also possible he let the other people in his ear saying Self was misusing him convince him of that.
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I think @Texas-Hawk-10 has emphasized several times in his experience as a Houston area hoops officionado that the competition around Houston is not all that great. If Grimes is doing that as we saw in the video, against weak competition then the video doesn’t mean much.
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Does anyone know what the relationship between Dotson and Grimes was like? Were they friends at all? Was Dotson “the other freshman point guard that was stealing all of Q’s minutes”?
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For that matter was Quentin friends with anyone on the team? Did he cheer for them?
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@approxinfinity I always saw him and the Lawsons pal around.
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Mitch, red head and one of the other walk ons
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@justanotherfan but why could he not do it in games?
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BShark said:
@justanotherfan He was just too slow for the P5 level. Now, the reasons for this can be guessed at. There were rumors about his worth ethic/eating habits, and being annoyed that he had to spend a year in college.
Thank you, good god… I was about to O.D. on statistics. Simply put, statistics and what he did in high school aside, Grimes was and is a bust.
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In a perfect world you have a little bit of both lol. I agree with @justanotherfan, especially about wigs and even Josh Jackson, both crazy athletes but not great basketball players. I’ve watched a ton of basketball and watching Wigs live. I think he is one of the most athletic guys around, I think he just doesnt care to put forth the effort to become a better player. He is one of the laziest defensive players in the league today and that says alot. It’s TRUE you cant teach athleticism but I’ll take a guy that puts forth effort and learns the fundamentals.
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You need both to win. A team of Lightfoots (Lightfeet?)doesn’t win anything. It would be fun/painful to watch. The trick is getting the highly skilled freak athletes to buy in. It’s hard with so many guys having one foot out the door.
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Perhaps since we didn’t take advantage of Grimes’ strengths… maybe that is a reason we haven’t landed more talent recruiting this year. Perhaps? I could see some recruits thinking… “what if that happens to me at Kansas!”
I don’t know… just an idea.
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I read several players really praising Grimes. I think he is well liked by all. He seems to be a good kid.
I just thought he looked lost out there, really all year. He didn’t show much instinct for the game. Never in the right spot for a rebound. Bad hedging to stop the drive. A foot slow on loose balls. Turnovers… turnovers… turnovers!
It’s really hard to get that many minutes and show goose eggs on a stat sheet. Eventually, the ball falls in your lap and falls into the goal, even if you were blindfolded. I know that sounds like a weird statement, but how he managed to stay out of the way of the ball became completely frustrating to watch. I can’t ever recall a Jayhawk receive that many minutes and contribute so little.
It felt like we were playing 4 on 5 all year. And I like Grimes… the poor fella never found his way!
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@Crimsonorblue22 @drgnslayr it does seem like he was cordial but if he was only close friends with Lightfoot and the walk-ons as I think ? Crimson was saying, that indicates only close ties to people who probably initiated the friendship. Someone said he seemed to cut up with the Lawsons. I wonder if that extended off the floor.Team chemistry is important as anything. In that way, Vick and Josh were tighter than Q was with anyone, breaking the law together
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It’s hard to assess this from the outside. Take Vick as an example. I think most or all of the players liked Vick and knew him well. The reasons why might not have been positives for the team. I’ll leave it at that.
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I’m not denying that Grimes’ production didn’t match his talents. I thought Grimes would come in and average 15 ppg, with 6 rebounds, a couple steals and 3 or 4 assists. That’s the type of talent his video suggests he has. Instead, he played to about half that, so yes, I agree with @Marco that Grimes was, by any reasonable measure, a disappointment compared to the expectations.
I am worried about what that does to KU’s recruiting. I think that may have hurt us in pursuing Rayjon Tucker. Remember, we have had consecutive years where a highly talented player looked lost in the system for much of the season (first Newman, then Grimes). Perhaps that played into Tucker’s decision. I don’t really know.
I do know this. Grimes will be evaluated as a PG at the NBA level. He will have an opportunity at the combine to show his skills. We will see what he has from here. As I said before, there’s a chance that he’s a complete bust at the next level, but I think the chance that he’s a superstar is higher than the chance he’s a bust, with the chance that he’s a solid role player the most likely outcome.
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drgnslayr said:
It’s hard to assess this from the outside. Take Vick as an example. I think most or all of the players liked Vick and knew him well. The reasons why might not have been positives for the team. I’ll leave it at that.
I guess I was looking at Josh in comparison to Q. Both being OADs, Josh making a memorable impact and Q making a forgettable one. I think in the case of a 1 year player, getting to know teammates fast and well is critical to your integration with the team.
It might explain the goose eggs a little bit. If Self tried to integrate him on the court but his whole world was disassociated from the team.
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Since every relevant direction is fair in this thread…
WILT VS KAREEM
Which player was more valuable?
Comparing stats:
Games played: WILT - 1045 KAREEM - 1560
MPG: WILT - 45.8 KAREEM - 36.8
PPG: WILT - 30.1 KAREEM - 24.6
FG%: WILT - .540 KAREEM - . 559
FT%: WILT - .511 KAREEM - .721
RPG: WILT - 22.9 KAREEM - 11.2
APG: WILT - 4.4 KAREEM - 3.6
I realize both players are very athletic and skilled in fundamentals (though differently).
For arguments sake… I’ve got Wilt as the “more athletic” and Kareem as the “more fundamental.”
I know I have a KU bias. But I think I would still tilt Wilt. His boards and defensive prowess reminds me that all players on the court always knew when he was in the game or not. I can’t say that at the same level with Kareem.
The biggest factor working against Wilt was his FT%. He might have done better blindfolded!
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Kareem is one of the 25 best players of all time.
Wilt is one of the 10 best players of all time.
It’s that simple, really.
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How would that .511 ft% fare now? Jilt-a-Wilt D!
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Where do you guys project Durant will be on the all-time list when his career is over assuming no early injuries?
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@justanotherfan Respectfully, Wilt is one of the one best players of all time.
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What is KD? Is he a guard, forward? Is he 6’9" or 7’?
Wiki has him at 6’9"… I’ve stood near him and he’s taller than that. I believe 6’11"
I think of him as a 6’11" guard. Hard for me to see him as a forward because of his handles.
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“Tilt-a-Wilt!”
Either an amusement ride or a “Hack-a-Shaq” reference.
The 3-pt line has changed the game. It really has put pressure on players to do better at the FT line.
If Wilt played today, he would live at the line and I’m not sure that would be a plus… no… actually, I know the answer there. Wilt would be removed from end-of-game scenarios.
I’m pretty sure a new variant would come along… one we have yet to really see in practice…
“Jilt-a-Wilt!”
Players would go after Wilt aggressively without regards to possibly fouling. So sometimes they would get the steal or tie-up, other times a foul, both situations would bode well for them.
I’m surprised no Big 12 teams have figured that out about Doke. Why not go after him on every play in the game? It makes sense. Rush in for the tie-up and who cares if you foul?
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@drgnslayr KD likes to be called 6’9” to avoid the stigmas associated with being 7ft. ie he should play in the post or be a banger.
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Most teams don’t have the depth to foul someone all the time. Even if you used walk ons, what you would sacrifice offensively to have a guy in there that can’t contribute offsets the gain of the missed FTs. That’s why teams usually only do the fouling in the second half, or for limited spurts.
If you wanted, you might be able to scheme Doke out of a game by strategically fouling in stretches. Foul him every time for two or three minutes at a time to break up KU’s offensive flow, then go back to your regular sets.
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drgnslayr said:
Thanks for your post. Very informative.
Do you think our program sometimes inhibits players from showing their true game?
Or maybe he has just been blown away by the crowds and publicity. Maybe he has stage fright?
Maybe he played the entire year “trying not to screw up?”
I’m at a loss on this one myself. I think he has tanked his future from this year and needs to bounce out of it for a resurrection! I hope he does that. If he turns pro, he’s going to have a rough time getting anywhere, but it will be a testament
Except for that in reality KD is only 6’7, the league rounding all heights up by about six inches. So yes, if they list Curry at 6’3 he is in reality only 5’10, and so on and so forth. It has been that way for from the get go. Do you realize how small Mugsy Bogues really was?
