A Hypothetical
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I am not sure anyone is advocating firing him before seeing how the team performs and an evaluation at the bye week after the first six games, which are the easier portion of the schedule, seems fair. If he is 3-3 then he probably gets the rest of the season but anything less, particularly if he is 1-5 with a high probability of finishing 1-11, then why keep him? Better to have potential coaches take notice of the opening at KU than drag it out to the end of the season.
Also, there is the issue of the buyout. This is what it looks after it was extended, who knows why, to 2021 after going 2-22 the first two seasons.
KU buyout, firing Beaty without cause
Old: 24 months or remainder of contract, whichever is less, offset by Beaty’s new salary if employed elsewhere.
New: $3 million
Beaty buyout to KU if he leaves early
Old: Two-years’ salary
New: $3 million if he leaves in 2017-18; $2 million if he leaves in 2019-20; $1 million if he leaves in 2021
So, firing Beaty at the end of the season under the old contract would have costed KU one year salary (2019) or $800K; letting him go half way through the season would have costed $1.2M. Under the new and current contract it will cost KU $3M. I assume the base salary ends when he is fired and the buyout kick in, so, firing him mid season saves KU half of his current base salary of $1.6M or $800K; keeping him as a lame duck to the end of the season would cost KU $800K. Only Zenger could have negotiated such a poor contract.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
Mangino was able to win with the same shoe contract, same stadium and football facilities that have been considerably improved since he left.
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Please think b4 u type, @JayHawkFanToo
Mangino’s approach has already been harshly rejected, so he can prove nothing you apparently speciously suggest. Because he failed and was rejected, Mange’s approach was/is therefore NOT an option by definition. We can’t know the real reasons for the rejection of Mangino’s brief, stunning success likely initiated in pre adidas days—only the official story, which rarely adequately explains controversial and conflicted events. Mange May have experienced dumb luck, or found an unfitting solution. We can’t be sure, because it was so fleeting. But we HAVE to infer the approach was not only unacceptable, but, based on his declining record, not sustainable either. You have to know this. My horse, who is NOT Trigger, stomped his hoof twice for no, when I asked if Mangino’s approach proved what you claimed.
My new mantra for @JayHawkFanToo this season is: think BEFORE you type.
I believe “you can do better.”
Rock Chalk!
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Beatty ought be addressed AFTER the other factors have been to see if he can win with an honest deck.
Until then, the only reason to fire him appears to be to allow some other group to get their guy in the coach seat to help them draw more deeply at the athletic department hog trough in pursuit of more back door influence over the university and so the university’s state and federal level pork conduits.
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Bottom line, it costs less to be beaten senseless with Beatty than being beaten senseless with a new football coach losing under the same constraints as Beatty gets beaten senseless under.
Everyone knows this.
It’s just no fun to admit.
Beatty is a cheaper beating than a new coach.
I would only support firing Beatty, if KU were to go without a head coach and staff and let the players coach the team. And there is no reason not to do so. When you win 0-1 games, the players could self coach as well.
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What’s Jim Tressel up to these days? Surely there are a few tatoo parlors in Larryville still.
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Mangino’s approach has already been harshly rejected, so he can prove nothing you apparently speciously suggest.
And what exactly did i “speciously suggest”? Did Mangino not win with same stadium, same shoe contract and considerably lesser facilities? These are facts.
Did KU under Mangino not have its best season ever in 2007 when it started unranked and finally debuted at #20 on week 7 of the season, moving to #2 by week 13 and finished the season at #7 after a win at the Orange Bowl with the best record in Division I? Didn’t KU pasted Nebraska 76-39 in a game that set many good KU records and bad NU records including most point allowed? Didn’t KU beat NU 45-10 a couple of years before? By the way, the year in between NU barely beat KU in OT in Lincoln. When is the last time KU beat Nebraska 2 times in 3 years? When is the last time KU went to 4 Bowls (including 1major Bowl) in 8 years? Let me help you… KU has not been to a bowl since Mangino left and his record on his last year at KU is better than any since then (8 years) and under 3 different coaches. In his last season at LU Mangino has 2 more wins than Beaty has in 3 seasons.
Lew Perkins wanted his own coach and despite the success of the football program he did many thing to undermine Mangino in a situation reminiscent of the of Brad Doherty at UNC where TPTB decide that he needed to go to make room for Roy Williams.
My new mantra for @jaybate-1-0 this season is: check if you are on or off your meds BEFORE you type.
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@justanotherfan That’s what i was trying to get at, no gain for KU to fire him til the season is done. I wouldnt complain if they did after a loss to Nicholis state but thats it.
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@dylans if he wasn’t already old as dirt I’d absolutely give him a call
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I still think long has a coach in his pocket, I pray he does! I think Beatty is a terrific person, but… I really hoped he was going to be the guy.
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@Crimsonorblue22 I hope he does too … because he’ll need that coach in his pocket.
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I think we all did. We really hoped he would work and I can’t recall when is the last time a season started with so much hope like last season and it was not unrealistic hope, none of us was expecting a 8 or 9 win season but a more modest 4 -6 win season and the team ended up 1-11 and, other than the 10 point loss to KSU, the rest of the losses were not even close including a two game span with a combined losing score of 88-0 and a 3 game span with a combined losing score of 153-19 and many records of the bad kind set in the process.
I would like to think that the upcoming season will be a surprise but at this point I am not willing to get my hopes up again. I sure hope the new AD has someone ready to step in.
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@JayHawkFanToo Inwas at the Texas game last year and KU was in that game until late in the 4th quarter. DKR was very uneasy that night because KU was hanging around and Texas couldn’t put them away.
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@kjayhawks There is still one very big benefit to firing to Beaty midseason should KU’s record this season warrant it. Recruiting. With Legendre’s decommitment, KU is down to 2 commits on August 1. Keeping Beaty in a lame duck situation is going to make an already bad recruiting season even worse for KU. Firing Beaty midseason at least tells recruits there will be a new coach next year and make some of them wait and see who that new coach is and then potentially commit to KU.
The buyout is a nonfactor in Beaty’s future. He’s got 4 years left on his contract with only a $3 million buyout total so that averages out to less than $1 million per season. That’s a very KU friendly buyout compared to the last 2 KU has had. Add in that the $3 million is paid up front so once KU fires Beaty and gives him his buyout, that’s it.
KU has money to spend on the next FB coach and I bet Jeff Long is going to go after someone who will be in $3 million per year range to get the fanbase excited about football because apathy has definitely set in.
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Sounds like Urban Meyer may be available soon
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He may need an image rehab assignment. I know just the place assuming he is a decent human being who was misinformed or unaware.
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The question is will OSU let him go? Winning in football is huge at The Ohio State and coaches like Meyer are not easy to find.
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@JayHawkFanToo They let Tressel go after winning the schools first ever national championship over tattoos. Who knows?
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Are we talking about THE Ohio State? I believe they have 8 national football championships.
In any case, quality coaches are getting hard to come by and if it happens to be true he did not know (highly doubtful) then he might survive.
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@JayHawkFanToo you are absolutely correct. First one in my lifetime though. First since 1970. Seems like they should’ve won one in the 90s also.
Point still valid that they shit canned Tressel over tattoos and this is a domestic violence case in troubling times. Urban is in hot water.
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@dylans I actually felt bad Tressel after that deal. I think firing him was a joke, some players took their championship rings and traded them for tattoos. I don’t agree with it and I realize Tressel denied it at first then it was released that he received a tip that allegedly had some of his players doing this a few months prior but it wasn’t proven by any stretch. Meanwhile in the SEC Cam Newton’s dad gets rich with no penalty (Cleared him, then changed the rules) and UNC has fake classes with no penalty. I’m not saying it was right but far worse has been done and continues to be done in collegiate athletics with no punishment. Everytime I think about stuff like this it becomes more and more obvious that the SEC and ACC are allowed to do whatever the hell they want because they make the NCAA the most money. Kinda like Terrance Jones, I believe he was the UK player with the same deal as Billy besides it took them a month and a half to find out grandma bought his car. I guess the good thing to come of all of this is that we aren’t likely to see a penalty for basketball violations. They won’t take down coach K no matter what happens, he could hand a bag of hundreds of thousands of dollars to a recruit with the NCAA and the FBI watching, and still receive no punishment whatsoever. I’d be happy if Jim Tressel was our next coach that’s forsure.
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@kjayhawks Tressel was fired because he lied to the NCAA and OSU about what he knew in regards to players selling or trading memorabilia for those tattoos which is an impermissible benefit. Tressel got caught because the FBI and Department of Justice was investigating the tattoo shop’s owner for potential drug trafficking charges. Tressel lied about his knowledge of events, failed to report the violations to the NCAA, and knowingly played players who should’ve been ineligible.
The Jim Tressel situation was a very big deal at the time because OSU had to vacate it’s 2010 season entirely, was banned from a bowl game in 2012, had 3 years of probation, and landed Jim Tressel a 5 year show cause which effectively black balled him from ever being a college football coach again.
In the eyes of the NCAA rulebook and punishments, what Tressel did was really bad and had more severe penalties than anything OSU would potentially get from the Urban Meyer situation. On a human level, obviously the Meyer situation is worse because there was a human being being physically abused and the abuser was not punished until at least 3 years later than he should’ve been.
Neither situation is a good look for Ohio St. and I have a feeling Urban Meyer is going to be done in college coaching once this is all said and done.
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Will have to prove he knew about it. Otherwise I don’t see him getting fired. He is still due $35M if they can’t fire him with cause.
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Nice summary and I agree that in Tressel’s case the lying to the NCAA and ensuing cover up that included playing athletes that would have been otherwise ineligible made things exponentially worse.
In Meyer’s case, absent a detailed morals clause in the assistant’s coach contract, can the HC or the school really do something about what happened outside working hours, off school grounds, did not involve any thing related to the school and in the privacy of his home? This recent article on ESPN appears to indicate there is a gray area in the subject.
Meyer’s contract states that if Ohio State is considering terminating with cause, he has the right to "explain the circumstances with his point of view before termination, unless the circumstances are so heinous that, in Ohio State’s reasonable judgment, it would be impossible for [Meyer] to justify his actions."
It’s not clear that what Courtney Smith is alleging would amount to a Title IX violation. A judge in Colorado dismissed a lawsuit about a similar case earlier this year. In that instance, the judge said University of Colorado officials were not legally obligated to act when they learned about a domestic abuse situation between an assistant football coach and his significant other. Courtney Smith is not an Ohio State employee, and the alleged incidents did not occur on campus.
The assistant was fired anyway when the story came out. There is no confirmation that Meyer’s wife told him about it but seems highly unlikely that he would not have known so the lying part is what might do him in.
I read that if they just fire him they are still responsible for the remainder of his huge contract unless they show cause. His new contract that was signed last April has specific clauses about reporting as per ESPN…
Meyer’s contract extension signed in April includes language requiring him to report any violations by staff members of Ohio State’s sexual misconduct policy to the university’s athletics Title IX coordinator. Also, as an Ohio State employee who supervises others, Meyer is required by the university’s sexual misconduct policy to report knowledge of domestic abuse by a university employee. According to the policy, "An individual need not be charged with or convicted of a criminal offense to be found responsible for domestic violence pursuant to this policy."
Meyer’s original contract required him to promptly report any violations of university rules by assistant coaches to Gene Smith and the Office of Compliance Services. Failure to do so could result in termination with cause.
Since his previous contract was in effect when the incident occurred and he claims that he learned about it recently, it might come down to the definition of “promptly” if they fire him for cause.
Note. My comment above does not indicate or imply that I condone or tolerate domestic violence in any way, shape or form, I do not.
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“I Saw What You Did” —1965 William Castle’s horror thriller starring Joan Crawford
Howling!
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JayHawkFanToo said:
My new mantra for…this season is: check if you are on or off your meds BEFORE you type.
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WARNING: MED SMEAR TROPE ALERT
I’ve done my duty!
Rock Chalk!
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I still think you can hire Meyer at this point, but he’d need an assistant morality coach to follow him everywhere. Sheesh it’s amazing how many people put their job ahead of others wellbeing.
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@dylans Meyer will be untouchable after this. He had an abnormally high rate of players being arrested when he was at Florida so I wouldn’t trust him to rehab KU’s image. Even if the onfield product improved, I don’t believe the off field issues that would likely happen would be something anyone would be proud of.
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If this is true (and the growing evidence suggests it is) as @Texas-Hawk-10 said, Meyer will be untouchable. His career will basically be OVER. You can’t hire Art Briles now. Urban Meyer will be in that same boat. You can’t look the other way in a situation like that and hope no one finds out because when someone inevitably finds out, it will all be over. It is over for Urban Meyer unless he can somehow prove he had no idea what was going on.
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@justanotherfan who is the burden of proof on though? Him or the university?
Contractually speaking, if they can’t prove he knew about it, I think he will be ok with not coaching and making $7M a year.
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Since I haven’t seen the contract, I can’t really say. Some contracts include a clause that is broad enough that if it suggests he “should have known”, he can be fired. In that case, tOSU would not have to prove actual knowledge.
If the contract requires tOSU to prove actual knowledge, that’s a much higher burden, obviously, and one that they likely cannot meet.
However, there also may be a clause that requires him to have oversight over his direct reports. There’s not much dispute here that his assistant coach did some awful things. If Meyer is responsible for reviewing and reporting that behavior to his superiors (the police calls are the best proof of that) then he failed in his duty either by not keeping track, or by not reporting. I don’t know if there is such a clause in his contract, but if there is, he is toast.
Lots of angles here, all of which are dependent on the actual contractual language.
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@Kcmatt7 The burden of proof is on the university since they are the ones investigating to potentially fire Urban. I would find it very difficult to believe Meyer didn’t know what was going on, but I also have a hard time picturing OSU being able to prove anything unless Meyer was recorded secretly discussing the issue in 2015 or another point before when he fired the coach in question.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 my thoughts exactly. I think he may get fired. But $35M richer
