Moore
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@drgnslayr I think he used to be more involved but isn’t anymore. This is just pure conjecture on my part but man, the 4 I mentioned were very dirty recruitments.
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@drgnslayr That is a vicious lie! I didn’t know anything about looking up dresses back then!
Full disclosure: I was impeached as class president of my 8th grade Unified Studies class because I was caught with a rubber band after a beleagured Mr. Northcutt banned all rubber bands. Funny true story: my best friend raised the issue in class when I was sick on the day after the horrid misconduct. He wanted to get the regular work off track, and claimed we could learn about impeachment and stuff. Mr N bought it, my friend prosecuted, and we wasted 2 whole days. The most timid kid in class was my defense counsel. 6 votes. I couldn’t even get 6 votes. Boom! Outtahere!!
This was in 1969-70, before Richard Nixon and Bill Clinton made these inquiries popular. Trendsetter me. But it was based on (Northcuttian) high crimes, not cheating.
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SEE REMARKS IN CAPS
BShark said:
You appear to have a fanfiction narrative regarding KU. [DON’T TELL ME YOU HATE FAN FICTION, TOO!!! } Now to address some things since you asked.
Jay is a good coach. [JAY WAS A .600 COACH BEFORE A FEW YEARS AGO. IS THAT WHAT YOU MEANT BY GOOD?] Omari Spellman was #20, Brunson #22. [I DID NOT KNOW THAT. THANK YOU FOR ADDING THAT TO THE DISCUSSION. WERE THEY RANKED THAT HIGH WHEN JAY SIGNED THEM, OR AFTER HE SIGNED THEM? THAT’S A PHENOMENON THAT HAPPENS SOMETIMES WITH KU RECRUITS. THEIR RANK ASCENDS AFTER THEY SIGN. HOW ABOUT WITH NOVA? I DON’T FOLLOW THEM AS CLOSELY AS YOU SEEM TO.] Not exactly sub 75. Let me know when Villanova is named in the indictment. [I WILL, IF THAT IS WHAT YOU WOULD LIKE. BUT WHY DO YOU CARE ABOUT VILLANOVA BEING NAMED IN AN INDICTMENT, OR NOT? I THOUGHT YOU WERE A KU FAN, RIGHT? YOU WANT ME TO TELL YOU IF NOVA IS IDENTIFIED AS A VICTIM IN THE INDICTMENT, RIGHT? AND ARE YOU INSINUATING YOU HAVE INSIDER INFORMATION ABOUT KU—THE REPUTEDLY REPORTED VICTIM–BEING INDICTED? THAT WOULD SEEM TO INVOLVE SOMEONE BREAKING THE LAW GIVING IT TO YOU? SHOULD’T YOU GO TO THE AUTHORITIES WITH THIS APPARENTLY INSIDER INFORMATION AND REPORT IT? OR ARE YOU JUST SPECULATING WITHOUT INSIDER INFORMATION AND WITHOUT BEING A LEGAL PROFESSIONAL? I AM NOT CRITICISING YOU EITHER WAY. YOU JUST HAVEN’T MADE THESE ISSUES VERY CLEAR TO ME YET.]
Funneling as in Adidas paying players to pick an Adidas school/KU.[WHY DO YOU CALL IT FUNNELLING? WHY DON’T YOU JUST CALL IT PAYING PLAYERS. IS IT ILLEGAL TO PAY PLAYERS, OR JUST A VIOLATION OF NCAA RULES, OR BOTH? IF SO HOW? AND WHY IS SELF ABLE TO FUNNEL SO FEW PLAYERS THAT HE HAD ALMOST NO DEPTH AT THE POST LAST SEASON–CERTAINLY NO THREE POINT SHOOTING POST MEN LIKE NOVA, RIGHT? WHY DOES SELF HAVE SO MUCH TROUBLE FUNNELING PLAYERS WITH MONEY, WHEN YOU MAKE IT SEEM LIKE JAY DOESN’T EVEN HAVE TO FUNNEL AT ALL TO SIGN 1-75 PLAYERS AND 75-100 PLAYERS THAT PLAY BETTER THAN 1-75 PLAYERS? TRYING TO UNDERSTAND YOUR THINKING HERE. I DIDN’T KNOW NOVA HAD A BUNCH OF 1-75 RANKED PLAYERS.MAYBE YOU KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT WHY SELF RECRUITS WORSE PAYING PLAYERS THAN JAY NOT–IF YOU KNOW HE ISN’T.] Self played the game. [HOW CAN YOU BE SO SURE? I MEAN, YOU APPEAR TO BE IMPLYING A .600 COACH A FEW YEARS BACK, LIKE JAY WRIGHT, WAS, CAN SIGN 1-75 GUYS LIKE SELBY, COLLINS, WRIGHT, ARTHUR, ETC., WITHOUT EVEN PAYING THEM, BUT FOR SOME REASON YOU ARE POSITIVE SELF PAYS PLAYERS AND THAT KU, IDENTIFIED AS A VICTIM, IS GOING TO BE INDICTED. I JUST DON’T FOLLOW HOW YOU CAN BE SO SURE ABOUT ALL OF THIS. I AM PRETTY CONFUSED ABOUT ALL OF THIS, AND I DON’T CLAIM TO KNOW EVERYTHING YOU DO. I AM NOT SAYING YOU DON’T KNOW. I AM SAYING I DON’T SEE HOW YOU KNOW? MAYBE YOU WILL EXPLAIN HOW YOU KNOW FOR SURE.]. Selby, Collins, Wright, Arthur etc… If you think those were clean I don’t know what to tell you. [WELL, IF JAY CAN RECRUIT 1-75 GUYS AND BE CLEAN, WHY CAN’T BILL? I DON’T FOLLOW YOUR REASONING.] There were others too [WHO EXACTLY?], but those 4 were perhaps the most glaring.[THEY DON’T SEEM GLARING TO ME. I AM NOT EVEN SURE WHAT GLARING MEANS IN A LEGAL SENSE. I DON’T FOLLOW YOU HERE EITHER. AND I AM TRYING.] It’s a good thing the probe came later, though as we found out…Preston was paid. Josh was paid. Not by KU or Self, it’s just the way the system works.[AH, SO YOU APPEAR TO BE SAYING THAT THE 1-75 PLAYERS SELF AND JAY SIGN ARE PAID; THAT THAT IS JUST HOW THE SYSTEM WORKS, BUT THAT SELF AND JAY WRIGHT TO NOT PAY THEM, AND THE SCHOOLS DO NOT PAY THEM. HMMM. SO: YOU APPEAR TO BE IMPLYING THAT SELF AND KU AND JAY AND NOVA WILL NOT BE INDICTED, BECAUSE THEY DID NOT PAY THESE PLAYERS; RATHER, THE “SYSTEM” DID. IS THAT ABOUT THE GIST OF IT? YOU SEEM TO BE SAYING NEITHER JAY AND NOVA, NOR BILL AND KU WILL BE INDICTED. WELL, I AGREE, BUT I JUST DON’T HAVE THE KIND OF KNOWLEDGE BASE THAT YOU APPEAR TO HAVE THAT APPEARS TO MAKE YOU BE SO SURE. I JUST DOUBT THAT EITHER BILL AND KU, OR JAY AND NOVA WILL BE INDICTED. ROCK CHALK!
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@jaybate-1.0 Is there a specific Bengay ointment for thumbs? Overtraining injury…
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C’mon, man up and hit that key board!
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I do dislike fan fiction in general yes. However some good has come of it, like Sergio Leonne westerns but I digress.
Brunson was always highly ranked, I know this because KU recruited him. I can’t answer on Spellman.
The KU bump isn’t as big as say, the Duke bump but Marcus Garrett did go from unranked to near top 50. In the last class, Dotson and Grimes were always highly ranked. McCormack bumped up a bit I think. Agbaji went from being a relative unknown, barely top 300 to 128. Probably would have happened if he ended up at say, Wisconsin, which he almost did. He got tons of interest late from major programs which always make the rankings guys spin around a bit.
I don’t think Jay or Self will end up being indicted. Especially given that we have already seen KU players named, but no one even tangentially related to KU. It SEEMS for the time being that KU (and Nova for that matter) are safe.
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Agreed, but man was it nice to have had trey dingers like Sherron, Frank and Devonte!
And we will have to hope the game turns away from teams having 3-6 > 39% trey dingers in their regular rotations during the next couple years.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
mayjay said:
With @jaybate-1-0 geting on a roll lately, scrolling through his posts is helping me get in great shape for the many expected thumb wrestling contests during our g-kids upcoming visit home!
Page Down works well. Also the down arrow on the band at the top of the screen allows you to skip to the next post quickly…
————
You both are finally getting it!!!
Scroll, baby scroll!
It’s always worked for me
Howling!
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mayjay said:
@drgnslayr The rest of y’all may be guilty, but I am now, and have always been, innocent and have never cheated in any fashion. Mr. Boline’s accusation in 11th grade Trigonometry was without foundation, all rumors to the contrary notwithstanding.
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Was Mr. Boline a member of the Deep State?
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BShark said:
JayHawkFanToo said:
mayjay said:
With redacted geting on a roll lately, scrolling through his posts is helping me get in great shape for the many expected thumb wrestling contests during our g-kids upcoming visit home!
Page Down works well. Also the down arrow on the band at the top of the screen allows you to skip to the next post quickly…
I should really do this instead of engaging/humoring him.
——————
By George, he is catching on!!!
First Kim saw the light with Trump.
And now @BShark catches on.
Halaleujah!!!
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BShark said:
@drgnslayr I think he used to be more involved but isn’t anymore. This is just pure conjecture on my part but man, the 4 I mentioned were very dirty recruitments.
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Evidence please.
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BShark said:
I do dislike fan fiction in general yes. However some good has come of it, like Sergio Leonne westerns but I digress.
Brunson was always highly ranked, I know this because KU recruited him. I can’t answer on Spellman.
The KU bump isn’t as big as say, the Duke bump but Marcus Garrett did go from unranked to near top 50. In the last class, Dotson and Grimes were always highly ranked. McCormack bumped up a bit I think. Agbaji went from being a relative unknown, barely top 300 to 128. Probably would have happened if he ended up at say, Wisconsin, which he almost did. He got tons of interest late from major programs which always make the rankings guys spin around a bit.
I don’t think Jay or Self will end up being indicted. Especially given that we have already seen KU players named, but no one even tangentially related to KU. It SEEMS for the time being that KU (and Nova for that matter) are safe.
——————
Thanks for getting real.
I was about to call your doctor!
No, wait, that’s your line.
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jaybate 1.0 said:
BShark said:
@drgnslayr I think he used to be more involved but isn’t anymore. This is just pure conjecture on my part but man, the 4 I mentioned were very dirty recruitments.
—————-
Evidence please.
Didn’t you once tell me that it’s not on you for me to research your claim? Just look into each one yourself via internet search. I’m not going to “do your legwork”.
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REMARKS IN CAPS
BShark said:
Nic Moore.
Ah yes poor HCBS. [CANT EVEN SIGN 4 CREDIBLE D1 BIGS CLEARED TO PLAY LAST SEASON. CANT EVEN SIGN BACKUPS FOR THE PERIMETER. IS THAT WHAT YOU MEAN?]The system works against him at every ]turn. [CANT SIGN OAD 1/5S. CANT SIGN A LONG OR MEDIUM STACK. IS THAT WHAT YOU MEAN? Meanwhile the great rankings cover-up makes Jay Wright (an excellent talent evaluator and coach in reality [RED PILL OR BLUE?]) look much better than he really is! [.600 TILL SUDDEN TRANSFORMATION] When you factor in that KU never gets calls [GOT’EM AGAINST WVU] well gosh it’s rather amazing HCBS has the will to field a team. [HE APPARENTLY GETS A KICK OUT OF INFURIATING THE ASYMMETRIC SYSTEM WHILE CLIPPING $10M COUPONS!] A true maverick, [YUP!] a renegade trying to defeat the system [HE ALREADY BEAT IT. HOF!] that definitely doesn’t funnel him players too [BUT SPOTS THEM 6-10 TO HIS 2-3 .
ROTFLMAO!———————
I have seen so many come and go. Please. Play nice. You can do it. It’s a friendly community.
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@jaybate-1.0 I was joking. But towards basketball I do find myself vacillating between the thought process you characterized as being the youthful perspective, i.e. “to hell with this game, I’ll find another” and a deep pervasive sadness as the games I loved and thought would be eternal all have gotten facelifts, and estranged their lifelong friends.
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I guessed you were joking, and it gave me a good laugh, as you are blessed with a fine sense of humor, but this experience of disatisfaction with change over a lifetime appears widespread in perception among individuals, yet coped with quite differently by each of them. Humor goes quite a way as a saave. But the dissatisfaction can be quite corrosive and life draining for some, while others find positive paths through the sticky wicket. I don’t know the answers of how to avoid the corrosion and stay positive. I am a horse in mid stream still in the big two hearted river. But I can at least share the issue, so others do not think they are alone. Or think something is wrong with them. It’s human as nearly as I can tell.
Rock Chalk!!!
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Rock Chalk buddy. I just finished coaching my boys in soccer and baseball. Both are moving on to travel soccer. This may be the end for me coaching in both sports. I am pretty emotional these days about sports and transitions for this reason as well. We are entering the Nike puppy mill, eyes wide open, and a lump in my throat.
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BShark said:
jaybate 1.0 said:
BShark said:
@drgnslayr I think he used to be more involved but isn’t anymore. This is just pure conjecture on my part but man, the 4 I mentioned were very dirty recruitments.
—————-
Evidence please.
Didn’t you once tell me that it’s not on you for me to research your claim? Just look into each one yourself via internet search. I’m not going to “do your legwork”.
——————
Now I recall reading where you’re kind of indulging me and I feel that’s some common ground we share and can build on, for I feel I am kind of doing the same with you.
Next , I said please regarding evidence, didn’t i? I didn’t give you an order, or demand you do it. I should get a kudo for that.
Next, you appeared to suggest you knew something specifically about what Self and KU had done that was “dirty” in each case, so since I don’t know of such info, I thought I ought to ask . And it seemed you could type it off the top of your head. But I’m ok with you not. I try in good faith to take what you give me.
Regardless, to give you the benefit of the doubt, I was hoping you might have something substantive that made you be so sure, because I have read some accounts about some of these examples over the years and recall not reading of any evidence that seemed beyond a reasonable doubt to implicate Self and/or KU in any thing illegal. But I am a legal layman and a fan and so I thought maybe you knew more, but now it appears you didn’t find anything more incriminating beyond a reasonable doubt than I did. I infer you found “indications” of “dirtiness.” Dirtiness is not a legal term of art that I am aware of, so I infer you are not using it to indicate Self or KU committed a felony, right?
FWIW, since reading Murray Sperber’s 1990 “College Sports, Inc.,” and Dan Wetzel’s 2000 “Sole Influence” I have guessed many, if not most D1 recruits and players have received considerations in various forms that would not be in full conformity with NCAA regulations, but I am not clear about whether any illegality has been widespread or not. I have tended to guess that the rarity of criminal convictions in college basketball indicated illegality was either not prevalent, or else so widespread as to be like certain kinds of political and law enforcement corruption treated as normalized and give a blind eye. I could never tell which.
You, however, seem to write as if you know for a fact what goes on with Self both in terms of “dirty” and/or “illegal”, but then stop short, at least in my recall, of supplying evidence beyond a reasonable doubt proving Self’s culpable role, especially regarding illegalities. In short, there seems a gap between your apparently confident assertions about Self’s culpability and the evidence. Further your assertions do not yet appear to square with the fact he has not been convicted, or even charged, with any illegalities in procuring players over several decades at several schools.
And when I add in that the reputed FBI/DOJ remarks reputedly characterize KU as a victim, well, then I am not clear why you believe what you appear to believe.
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Be brave. I have not run that gamut, but can imagine great pride/love and some trepidation mix for a strong life cocktail.
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BShark said:
@drgnslayr I think he used to be more involved but isn’t anymore. This is just pure conjecture on my part but man, the 4 I mentioned were very dirty recruitments.
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You appear to conjecture purely that “the system” is dirty and so makes Jay Wright and Bill Self recruit as “dirty” as you conjecture purely that they do.
Who do you conjecture purely is responsible for dirtying the system so that Jay Wright and Bill Self appear to recruit as dirty as you appear to conjecture purely that they do?
Note: My question is purely conjecture.
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@BShark I think they both start. DD/Charlie/Grimes/Dedric/ Doke. First man up w the bigs: Silvio. First man up w the guards: Marcus Garrett.
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KUSTEVE said:
@BShark I think they both start. DD/Charlie/Grimes/Dedric/ Doke. First man up w the bigs: Silvio. First man up w the guards: Marcus Garrett.
KJ I think will be more of a factor than this. But I see it similar, with the players you mentioned and KJ being the primary 8 player rotation.
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So no Garrett?
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@Crimsonorblue22 Are you asking me? I think Garrett is firmly in the 8 man rotation and could start.
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@BShark but not starting? Who knows! 5 guard rotation? I would say grimes for sure, that’s it.
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I laughed so hard that now I have to clean green smoothie off my monitor and keyboard!
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I’m hearing that everyone except maybe Doke is working hard on their threy accuracy this summer!
We’ll find a couple of good shooters… long ways to go until tip off!
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I agree, except for Silvio. He is just too good to keep off the floor, UNLESS…unless he and Jay Wright and Bill Self and Jay Bilas are already in some kind of @BShark insider knowledge based, purely conjectural, but fantastically high confidence witness relocation program as we type. Booga booga!
“Paranoia strikes deep
Into your heart it will creep…”
—Buffalo Springfield, “For What It’s Worth”
Ahem.
Self tries to get his best 5 guys on the floor.
U r probably right at season’s start.
I guess Silvio could back up all year, because he has less experience than Ded and Doke, but…
Wow! Silvio seems a potential NBA stud to me already with just a half season of grooming.
Silvio seems the best big Self has recruited other than The Lion Slayer.
Normally he would sit and learn for a season, but he sat and learned half a season last year instead of attending Prom!
OMG!
Self has to find a place for him at tip off, by mid season, if @BShark, the Feds and the NCAA don’t deny him.
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drgnslayr said:
I’m hearing that everyone except maybe Doke is working hard on their threy accuracy this summer!
We’ll find a couple of good shooters… long ways to go until tip off!
———————
I never recall more than one mid 30% bricker transmogrifying into a 40% trifectater in a single season, do you?
Therefore the odds of even two of our guys reaching the 40% level seem slim.
And frankly, a team apparently needs at least 3 even to hang on against other teams with 4-6 from the Elite on.
I fear the days of Elite Eight and higher teams with only 1 > 39% trifectaters are behind us, maybe even with only two, also.
But I like your optimism!
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jaybate 1.0 said:
I never recall more than one mid 30% bricker transmogrifying into a 40% trifectater in a single season, do you?
2014-2015
- Svi - 0.288
- Manning- 0.333
2015-2016
- Svi - 0.402
- Manning- 0.500
You were saying?
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
@BShark but not starting? Who knows! 5 guard rotation? I would say grimes for sure, that’s it.
He might. Staff loves him that much we know. Going to be a battle for minutes.
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He was asking for more than one player in the same seasons. He seems to think that teams will start stocking up 3-point shooters when in reality Villanova was an aberration and far from the norm.
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@drgnslayr Glad to be of assistance! Those fond memories…
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@JayHawkFanToo Evan went 1 for 3 to 2 for 4?
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He asked for percentages…
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JayHawkFanToo said:
…when in reality Villanova was an aberration and far from the norm.
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Can an aberration be near the norm, or would it just be near the norm?
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@jaybate-1.0 Aberrations are the new normal.
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I understand the fear.
But let’s face it… any team we face that gets hot from trey is a team we can lose to, regardless of their personnel or ours.
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Evan Manning?
Um, no.
Two rotation players the same season that start the same season as 30% brickers from the previous season and end up >39%ers with > 100 3pt attempts. Capice?
I love it when you reach desperately though!!!
Hey, I’ll go you one better! (Nudge, nudge, wink, wink)
I also went from 25% to 50% in 4 three point attempts in a grey hair league!!! That’s a total of three: Svi, Manning and Me!!!
You were saying?
Say, is Rummie a big Trump supporter?
Trump is starting look more and more like Jeremiah Johnson, isn’t he?
Oh, eh, u don’t like political talk mixed in. I withdraw the comment.
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mayjay said:
@jaybate-1.0 Aberrations are the new normal.
Well put.
In statistical terms, the formal and informal institutions have been parameters recalibrated to bias toward greater sigma around mu.
It does no oligarchy much good to rig a system to stasis (low variance), for that makes it hard to unstick and redirect the system brought under control (at considerable shifted cost) where you want it to go.
Gotta design in a little wiggle to reduce stickiness.
And the more you control you have the more variance you can afford to (and so want to) design in, so that stickiness becomes almost no obstacle at all.
Strange tendencies within what appears frightening chaos to others can be as good of ally as order in moving complex systems off their legacy equilibrium strategy.
This was one of the most impactful insights of chaos and complexity theories application in systems management.
Or so it seems to this fan.
But you still have to be vigilant about unforeseen consequences
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drgnslayr said:
I understand the fear.
But let’s face it… any team we face that gets hot from trey is a team we can lose to, regardless of their personnel or ours.
This is why I think what Jay did is so important to learn the lesson of.
With six > 39% trey balllers and all but two ranked 75-100 (that was for @BShark), you can win most of the time even against teams with only 2-3 >39% trey ballers, even when they are hot!
Basically, for you to lose with 6 trey ballers all six have to blow cold. It just doesn’t matter much what the other team does.
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Interesting concept.
Add in the ability for offensive rebounds. At what clip do we rebound? That changes all your numbers.
Treys usually create rebounds covering a wider area, which should give offensive teams a bit more advantage because it’s harder to defend that much turf for rebounding.
I’m not sure what to think about our big post presence for next year.
I kind of felt like Self was just getting the hang of a 4-guard offense.
It wasn’t long ago when we were talking about “BAD BALL” and grind games.
I’m guessing you have watched plenty of GS basketball, especially in the playoffs.
What I noticed… there is not such a thing as a “bad shot” for GS if it’s behind the trey line.
Curry and company will often toss bricks for 3 quarters or so and they seem to not even care. All they have to do is stay within striking distance.
Their concept is “to establish their style of play” and then the game is typically long enough for them to hit a stride or two at some point. When they are on, they are on… and no lead is safe while they build a lead that can grow to be safe. You can often see GS give up an under the basket easy stuff to kick for a difficult trey attempt. Imagine Self buying into this?!
Watch body language. Use your remote and go back to some horrible missed treys by GS, and then watch their body language after the bad misses. You can’t tell they even missed those shots. It is because they understand. They understand after those shots that the shot isn’t falling but the only way to hit stride is to be playing the right style. The only thing missing is the make.
The one thing I’m certain about GS is they have a unique view of treys over the entire rest of the league. They were almost laughing at Lebron on his easy score drives. Lebron could have scored 100 points and lost. What Lebron needs to learn is what Durant had to learn; the next level is to become a lethal threat from trey and then don’t hesitate to take over games. The real difference in this series was Durant. Durant started heating up on the long ball, often from 35 feet. Lebron is close to being that capable of a shooter, and he certainly could become one. But he needs to change his perspective. I’m sure those easy drive finishes feel fantastic for him, but those need to be the bail out points and not the overall strategy.
But we have to remember that D1 is not the NBA. I still believe it is primarily defense that is the best weapon to take into March. Nova hit everything on us… but they also played really good defense and they neutralized our trey ball by defending up high. They also didn’t seem to mind if we scored in the paint.
What we really need is for one or two of our bigs to become efficient at trey. That’s a real game changer because there are few players in D1 that can guard that. Heck… few players in the NBA, too. No one can really stop Kevin Durant.
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When ever I can get you thinking about the game’s frontier, I learn a lot. Thanks for responding.
Your comparison of Durant and Lebron distills things elegantly, and I hope everyone reads your post and stays to the end to read and absorb it.
All competitive activities originate in two points of view and play out according to choices that alter the opportunity sets of each other, choice by choice, for the duration of the competition.
If Kerr had signed Lebron instead of, Durant, and Durant had gone to Cleveland, it appears Lebron would have developed his trey and be draining them much as Durant is now. And Durant would likely still be feinting many more trey attempts and driving through Golden State the same way Lebron was doing.
Culture affects human being’s points of view.
A team is a culture.
Durant has embraced the Golden State culture.
Lebron has embraced the Cleveland culture.
Cleveland should hire Luke Walton, or someone that gets the Golden State culture, and get on with trying to do it better with Lebron. Lebron is still the biggest athletic freak on the planet (to quote Self) at his position. Persons forget that it takes great springs and great strength to shoot the long trey. Durant is not just a great shooter, he is a great athlete on the order of Lebron, but it appears to me that Lebron still holds an advantage over Durant as a physical specimen of athletic prowess. Lebron is something like Wilt Chamberlain in that he seems able to master anything he sets his mind to master. I have little doubt that he could become the deepest trey threat of all, because of his fabulous strength.
I am not exaggerating, when I say I believe Lebron could become a proficient 40 foot trey shooter, if a coach laid in a 3pt culture and said this is what we need from you to win rings tell hell freezes over.
And here is why Lebron triggering from 40 feet, instead of Durant’s triggering from 35, could be a decisive advantage for the team that decided to deploy Lebron in this way. Every foot farther out that a team initiates the trey attempts from adds a foot of trey shooting space “underneath” the farthest distance that treys are taken from. By using Lebron’s fabulous strength and athleticism to become a credible threat to launch the trey from 40 feet, massively increases the area “underneath” where Lebron could dish off to for an absolutely open look trey.
Everything has changed about offense except the way we think about it. Kerr, whether on his own, or from skulling with Tex Winter, or Phil Jackson, or whomever, has exposed how the farther away from a basket a team can reliably initiate the trey the more it opens up the “underneath” trey. IMHO, what makes Golden State so tough is not just the number of treys they take, but great distance from the basket that they are willing to take them from. I have not seen statistics on this but it is my expectation that Golden State takes more open look treys than anyone else, not just more treys.
This insight occurred to me after watching Jay Wright’s Villanova team in the tournament this past year. Nova didn’t just take more treys, they took more from farther out. And some of them were just jaw-droopingly far out. Their Italian Stallion guard took a few from distances that I frankly could not believe he could reliably even hit the rim. But he was deadly. Then when you go back an think about what his super long treys did to the “spacing” in the three point area of the court, one sees the offenders basically able to be another 5-8 feet farther apart from the ball. When their longest long ball threat was working out front, and even threatening to take a trey, the defenders on the wings had to EITHER float out much closer to the wing they were guarding, OR they had to float out much farther into the passing lane. Either choice resulted in the wing man having MUCH MORE room to move to get open and to shoot the trey from a convenient arch for him. Not all of Nova’s trifectates could take and make the 35 footer like the Italian stallion, but having him out front posing the threat fantastically opened up the three point are “underneath” for open looks by guys who needed to receive the ball 23-27 out. I believe this effect goes on with Golden State, also. And Golden State has two guys–Curry and Durant–that can shoot it from high earth orbit. And the real force multiplier comes when one of them is out at 35 feet threatening to take the trey and the other is “underneath” looking for an open look 28 footer, which is practically a mid range jumper for this quality of professional shooter.
Hence, my hunch is that if a team were to leverage Lebron’s freakish athleticism to learn to gun a 40 foot trey, instead of a 30 foot trey, and get him two teammates capable of shooting the 25-35 foot trey, Lebron’ s team might get even more open look, uncontested treys than GS.
Yes, at some distance with some athletes there are diminishing returns on make rates.
Maybe Kerr sets the 35 foot range where he does, because that is what Durant and Curry can handle.
All the better to see if Lebron can learn to be the first king of the 40 foot three.
The inside game will not disappear. It will adjust to the long rebounding you describe and to having better and better passers for big men. Developing big men that can not only range and grab the long rebounds, but also either take and make the trey, or, more likely, pass like guards and hit the open trey shooters in the hands on the way up for their long treys seems the future of big men to me at the pro level.
And what happens at the pro level inevitably trickles down over time, usually in diluted form, to the college game.
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Kevin Durant in his years before joining GS 1.9 4.8 .384. That includes a pretty rancid rookie year and his first two years skew his attempt numbers down. Durant has always been a great shooter. His last year in OKC was better than his first year in OKC from range, pretty easily. Last three years at OKC 3PA per game: 6.1, 5.9, 6.7. First two years at GS 5, 6.1. So, did going to GS really fundamentally change Durant? I would say no.
Lebron for his career 1.5 4.4 .337.
Lebron definitely didn’t have the shooters that GS has, which I believe is what you were saying. Curry is a transcendent shooter and Klay isn’t very far behind. Durant for his position and size is very good too. It’s a pretty specially constructed roster. Houston had a real chance to beat them though, if CP3’s hamstring wasn’t cursed. I really would have liked to have seen that. GS still might have won, but it would have been MUCH more interesting.
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I’m not sure I’ve ever read one of your posts where I thought you nailed it this well.
I’m totally with you… Lebron should work on mastering the 40-ft shot. And you are right… not all treys are the same and the further you go out you are telling the defense they have to stretch that far, too.
I recall the first time GS took it to Lebron and he said he was going to go work on distance treys, and he did. I think we’ve seen him extending his range, but he just doesn’t have the conviction (mindset) GS players have.
Yes… GS could have done well to take Lebron over Durant, and yes, Lebron’s strength should extend his range.
I wonder when the NBA will make backcourt baskets worth 4 points? It sounds ludicrous, but it would start to impact the game at some point. You put a carrot out there and the players will go for it and master it. Players “practice” the long ball from backcourt, but they do it for fun and not to learn precision.
I do believe the “Golden State Effect” has changed all of basketball. Finally a team that really embraces the trey enough to be “all in!”
I feel sure Jay Wright gets it.
As to our team, I agree with everyone that the trey ball will not come as plentiful this year. But I’m sure we will have games where we scorch from trey.
Shooters like Svi and BG don’t come around every year… but did we really improve that much with these players? We also sacrificed defense.
I think I would be looking for marksmen who have the ability to bring a lot more to the game than just the trey ball. And it sends a message to your team that you are willing to sacrifice defense and rebounding if a guy can shoot the rock from trey. I’m not sure that is an attitude I would want running through my team.
Pros are so much different than D1 players. First… they are older and wiser (or should be). Second… this is their living. They see what money has brought them… fancy homes, cars… and fancy wives that demand a lot! Their motivated to listen to the right coaches and focus on those goals. D1… there is emotion and desire, but there also exists outside temptations and a juvenile mindset that makes it tough for them to focus like the pros do.
I curse his name every time we play them… but ultimately, I respect Jay Wright, if for no other reason than his ability to get his players to buy in 100%! That’s really tough to do, especially in D1!
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If you want a real advantage on offense…
Essentially… you turn what might otherwise be a very good defense into one that is really only with 4 players on defense. All you need is a center that is proficient from trey!
Few 5s can defend from trey, and if they do, you have them away from the basket, where their gifts of rebounding and shot blocking are now neutralized.
Using the “Golden State Effect” even further… forget the 4-guard offense! Think 5-guard offense! Think about how effective a guy like Kevin Durant could be in college right now! Imagine if his coach would understand the game well enough to really take advantage of his abilities? He is tall enough to fill the paint, but can kill from trey!
Let’s bring this home to Kansas again… Didn’t Konate return to WVU for the upcoming year? I think so. He’s quite a shot blocker. If we really want to think like GS… we would have a team of shooters, including at the 5 so we would pull Konate out of the paint, completely neutralizing his biggest gift of defense!
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drgnslayr said:
If you want a real advantage on offense…
Essentially… you turn what might otherwise be a very good defense into one that is really only with 4 players on defense. All you need is a center that is proficient from trey!
Few 5s can defend from trey, and if they do, you have them away from the basket, where their gifts of rebounding and shot blocking are now neutralized.
Using the “Golden State Effect” even further… forget the 4-guard offense! Think 5-guard offense! Think about how effective a guy like Kevin Durant could be in college right now! Imagine if his coach would understand the game well enough to really take advantage of his abilities? He is tall enough to fill the paint, but can kill from trey!
Let’s bring this home to Kansas again… Didn’t Konate return to WVU for the upcoming year? I think so. He’s quite a shot blocker. If we really want to think like GS… we would have a team of shooters, including at the 5 so we would pull Konate out of the paint, completely neutralizing his biggest gift of defense!
OMG! I opened the door. You kicked it down!!!
Those trey shooting bigs of NOVA completely got me salivating at the five guard concept.
How is this for a new epigram for the modern age of basketball:
“EVERY MAN A GUARD!”
What big man not being channeled against his will by the petroshoeco-agency complex would not sign with a team with that sign up over the locker room door!!!
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Five guards works in high school because talent trumps size at that level, and many teams simply can’t punish a five guard lineup on the glass.
But as you move up, you have to have big guys that can hit the boards. If you have a Durant or Lebron type, that works, but otherwise you have to have someone that can clean the boards.
There have been five guard lineups that have won state titles in high school. I can’t remember a college team (D1) that won a title without a big guy.
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A hot tre balling team can knock anyone from the tournament. The trick is winning when you are cold.
