Is Bill Self a Corrupt Coach?
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Frankly, almost anything is possible, when you have the following folks involved in D1:
1.) the petroshoeco and petrowear folks;
2.) the petroleum folks supplying the petroshoeco and petrowear folks;
3.) the Big Talent agencies in Hollywood;
4.) Big Gaming;
5.) Big media;
6.) the Pentagon;
7.) the big investment managers investing untraceable bailouts to take stock positions in the Petroshoecos;
8.) $1 Billion annual budget state universities; and
9.) private oligarchs donating and wanting gain back door influence over the university through the athletic department, and in turn in the state’s politics.
As we have seen in the last two years in Washington politics, intelligence, law enforcement and FISA court activities get bent by these sorts of forces–sometimes into politicized activities.
As was the case with the investigation of Trump that revealed no collusion with Putin and Russia so far, we will have to wait for the investigation to reach a point of revealing more of what they have, or don’t have.
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@JayHawkFanToo I presume he was referring to the very well publicized headlines of Adidas and presumably Desousa and getting money and such. So it’s a little more than I heard it on the internet type of stuff.
I’m not saying I agree with him either @approxinfinity. It just caused me to step back and ask what if?
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@wissox - The gentleman that you were talking to - was there any kind of “institution” nearby that he may have been escorted back to?
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Very difficult and layered question. Ultimately I would say somewhat.
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…but…nothing on the Adidas or De Sousa headlines indicates or even hints of any involvement by Coach Self. To take those headlines and from there determine Coach Self is dirty is a ridiculous stretch.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
In this one I believe @HighEliteMajor has it correct, the tax money that might have not been paid is way too small to get the FBI involved. The IRS has plenty of agents that could have investigated; there has to be more to the story than we know.
Ok so why do you think the FBI got involved? Because they care for College Basketball? No large sums of money are switching hands without no recourse. As of to date Lanford’s Dad has yet to produce a budget for his AUU team or pay taxes on the money he received from Adidas. It’s very interesting that the Lanford kid was only interested in Adidas schools, especially seeing how Adidas was the big donor to his Dad and AUU team. AUU Basketball is the biggest scam every created by the Petro Shoe companies. They pay out big time money on the chance of signing the next MJ shoe deal.
If you have another point of view on why the FBI got involved than by all means i’m all ears. Just don’t post that I’m wrong without posting why you disagee. It’s kind of rude.
I mean it’s quite disrespectful to call someone naïve without at least explaining your own point of view. Is it really that farfetched that the FBI got involved because of large amounts of money are switching hands without a proper paper trail? Really?
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JayHawkFanToo said:
…but…nothing on the Adidas or De Sousa headlines indicates or even hints of any involvement by Coach Self. To take those headlines and from there determine Coach Self is dirty is a ridiculous stretch.
A ridiculous stretch? I’m certainly not going back in the archives, but how many times here on these pages have we dumped on Cal/K/etc. for all kinds of crap in recent years? I’m not going to say you have said anything, because I don’t know, but if I had to bet the 2 dollars in my wallet on it, I’d bet you’ve called Cal and K dirty too.
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@wissox Yeah, but that’s different. ‘Cause they are…
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I would not label Bill Self as a “Corrupt” coach although I do find hard to believe that he was totally unaware of everything going on between Adidas, agents and his recruits.
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AsadZ said:
I would not label Bill Self as a “Corrupt” coach although I do find hard to believe that he was totally unaware of everything going on between Adidas, agents and his recruits.
This is about where I fall in the discussion. Well stated.
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@JayHawkFanToo You are treading a tenuous path. I think, really, we all are. As the leader, being complicit, knowing the game, and letting it happen, is really being guilty. If you turn away, if you deny yourself knowledge of the details, if you take the “plausible deniability” path, you are still guilty as the leader.
Replace the “payments from Adidas” aspect of this with “hazing”, and it is a little more stark.
Taking it the next step, if a coach knew of the fact that hazing was occurring, did nothing to stop it, and kid got killed, what would happen?
The coach would in all likelihood not be criminally responsible. So when I say “guilty” above regarding the leader, it’s not in the criminal sense.
The coach and university would be sued, and they would lose.
If Bill Self were put under oath in a civil case, it would seem that he (and all other coaches) would be in trouble related to “knowledge” or “complicity.”
But they would take the 5th, right? With the current investigation, no way they could be let to testify.
Crazy.
What is corrupt? Where is the line?
I come from the perspective that the Adidas payments are Adidas business, and are not a crime. And should not have been charged. If Self knew or didn’t know, again, Adidas business. So I fall of the “not corrupt” side pretty heavily.
But we are in the realm of this thing having criminal implications.
Again, a crazy path this is on.
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Whoa…chill dude. Nowhere in my post I indicated you were wrong or naive and there was nothing disrespectful either.
Agreeing with someone else does not imply disrespect or even that either is right or wrong, we are all expressing our opinions here and when presented as such that is exactly what they are…opinions and not facts and this is after all why we are here, right?
Now, in the big scheme of things the amount we are discussing here are extremely small, not even noise, and not something that would warrant FBI involvement. IRS? Heck yes, FBI? No…in my opinion of course. I would personally prefer the FBI concentrates in things like following up on leads on potential school shooters instead of chasing after small time tax evaders which the IRS is more than eager and capable to do.
As far as the indictment, it does not mean much and as the expression goes, the government can indict a ham sandwich. The most sensational current investigation is that being conducted by a Special Prosecutor Paul Mueller who apparently brought an indictment against several Russian firms with the apparent motive of creating publicity and to extend and expand his investigation even when he did not have the information necessary to proceed and was caught with his pants down when the indicted firms requested a speedy trial and asked for discovery. it also appears that they indicted the proverbial “ham sandwich” since one of the indicted firms did not even exist as a legal entity in the alleged period. Don’t you see some parallels with the FBI indictment?
As far as shoe companies paying AAU team, it is perfectly legal and does not even violate NCAA rules and I don’t see why they could not do this. Every business and I mean EVERY business with a product to sell has to advertise it, how else would you sell it? Businesses routinely hire people who are in a position to influence and sway buyers, celebrities are hired to endorse products because the exposure they have; remember former Kansas Senator Bob Dole advertising medication for erectile dysfunction? What better way to advertise your athletic gear than having AAU teams with future stars wearing your product?
There is nothing illegal with a shoe company paying anyone including HS athletes to endorse its product…granted, it will likely make that athlete ineligible to compete in amateur sports like NCAA/college but it does not make it illegal. Now, if that income is not declared and the Government does not get its cut, then this is where the IRS comes in, not the FBI.
Having said that, don’t you think that this investigation is highly focused on Adidas, the German company, and not Nike or Under Armour? So far, the main casualty has been Pitino, who is now suing Louisville, an Adidas program; the other assistants that got in trouble was due to steering players to agents and not related to a shoe company per se. Don’t you wander why nothing has happened with Sean Miller at Arizona, a Nike program, who they allegedly had on tape discussing payments? He still has his position and nothing else has been mentioned. How about Under Armour? Weren’t they the ones that paid De Sousa’s guardian in the first place? I believe @HighEliteMajor mentioned a while back that the ultimate target appeared to be Coach Self himself; I am starting to think he was right.
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When you consider the players Kentucky and Duke have gotten recently it would be considerably less of a stretch to think that they are dirty or at least dirtier than Coach Self, wouldn’t you agree? Do you have any factual information from ANY source, Internet or otherwise, that even alleges wrong doing by Coach Self? The only negative I have about Coach Self is his handling of the Giddens deal, if what was reported on Beyond the Phog is to be believed.
To infer from an indictment in which Coach Self is not even named and KU is listed as a victim that Coach Self is dirty is one hell of a stretch any way you look, regardless of what school the accuser comes from.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
When you consider the players Kentucky and Duke have gotten recently it would be considerably less of a stretch to think that they are dirty or at least dirtier than Coach Self, wouldn’t you agree? Do you have any factual information from ANY source, Internet or otherwise, that even alleges wrong doing by Coach Self? The only negative I have about Coach Self is his handling of the Giddens deal, if what was reported on Beyond the Phog is to be believed.
To infer from an indictment in which Coach Self is not even named and KU is listed as a victim that Coach Self is dirty is one hell of a stretch any way you look, regardless of what school the accuser comes from.
The problem is you can’t have anything be 100% verifiable fact in a court of law with any information currently available. Probably hearsay at best.
That said I’ve laid out some things in the past. Is it really worth rehashing? It doesn’t change anything. There is a reason Self has a reputation as dirty in coaching and recruiting circles.
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BShark said:
That said I’ve laid out some things in the past. Is it really worth rehashing? It doesn’t change anything. There is a reason Self has a reputation as dirty in coaching and recruiting circles.
Can you please cite reliable sources that indicate that Coach Self has a reputation as dirty in coaching and recruiting circles? Everything I have heard or read about him is the exact opposite.
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@JayHawkFanToo Yes, I’ve looked at Kentucky and Dukes long stacks and have wondered too. Ultimately I’ve had to conclude that since nothing has ever happened to those coaches/programs that it probably means they’re clean or have been part of this same shoe payment thing that we’re entangled with. But from your post you don’t think they are…maybe. How is that different from the guy from Bradley I met?
I do like the fact that we’re called victims here, but I don’t like that Billy Preston is driving a late model car and that if he hadn’t run into that curb we might not have said anything about it. Did Bill Self know about the car? How could he not know about it? Does this means that he looked the other way until his hand was forced and he couldn’t look the other way? Possibly. And if the answer is yes, then there’s some shade on him and the program.
But we don’t know a lot of facts I agree. I don’t want to believe HCBS is corrupt, even a little corrupt. I want to answer yes to @jaybate-1-0’s question “Is Bill Self the cleanest coach in America?”
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@JayHawkFanToo I mean what’s reliable? I’ve been to AAU events a fair bit in the past. I’ve read plenty too but it’s board rat talk, not articles. I just don’t know what you are expecting here. This is all just hearsay.
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You need to reread my post. I did not say either Cal or Coach K are corrupt. What I said is that based on the prospects they have gotten recently it would be “LESS” of a stretch to infer misbehavior from them…when compared to Coach Self…right?
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…and that is why hearsay is not admissible in any court because it is unproven, highly prejudicial and most likely untrue. If there was any evidence and I mean ANY evidence, someone in the MSM would have been all over it.
Think about it. The comments in this thread appear on Google, someone will google it, see your comment and post as fact that Coach Self is corrupt based on your comment as a KU fan in a KU basketball forum. Threads like this is what fuels all the hearsay and innuendo that we see.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
…and that is why hearsay is not admissible in any court because it is unproven, highly prejudicial and most likely untrue. If there was any evidence and I mean ANY evidence, someone in the MSM would have been all over it.
Think about it. The comments in this thread appear on Google, someone will google it, see your comment and post as fact that Coach Self is corrupt based on your comment as a KU fan in a KU basketball forum. Threads like this is what fuels all the hearsay and innuendo that we see.
Everything the other way is speculation too was my only point. Only Self and very few people ultimately know.
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I do apologize has I wasn’t referring to you. However I think you might have proven my point? If it is perfectly legal for shoe companies to pay HS Kids then why is the FBI involved? You say mere pennies, yet I say how deep does the rabbit hole go. There is some serious money being thrown around.
Are you suggesting that the FBI is only getting involved because Adidas is an Foreign entity? I would say that is Naïve but I won’t disrespect you like that. You be right? The FBI’s handling recent current events makes me think there is something in the Bureau.
However I still stick to the money/tax theory. It’s not just the lack of taxes but where this money is coming from, to whom this money is going too, and how this money is being spent. Remember it was Tax evasion that finally brought down the Al Capone at the hands of the FBI.
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A couple off point that I want to bring to your attention. First, we have to differentiate between what breaks the law and what breaks a NCAA rule and doing something that breaks an NCAA rule does not necessarily breaks the law. For example, buying a meal for a student athlete might violate NCAA rules but by no means breaks any laws. Adidas or Nike can go to a high school and say we are going to select a few students and will give them each $10K to wear Adidas or Nike gear and there is no law being broken; of course those students would not be eligible to play college sports but no laws are broken. I guess we can agree on this.
Now comes the FBI and says these student are hiding these payments to play college when they would otherwise be ineligible and hence they are conspiring to defraud schools and we will prosecute to enforce basically NCAA rules even when the alleged victims do not consider themselves victims at all. Now, if Adidas is using illegally obtained money and using college kids to basically launder the money I can see where they could get involved. However, in this case Adidas is using money legally gained as a result of the company’s operations. Seems to me like a like a stretch to use the FBI to investigate this case.
I brought the Al Capone name myself but only to indicate that large scale tax evasion can be used to convict someone but we are talking apples and oranges. Lots of people were being killed as a result of Al Capone’s operation and the government was unable to tie any of them to Capone and as a last ditch they used the tax evasion charge based on the illegal acquisition of said money and the corresponding tax evasion by one individual and the illegal money and tax evaded were orders of magnitude greater than what we are talking on the current indictment and the money was not illegally obtained by Adidas, the tax evasion, if any, is done in a tiny scale by lots of unrelated individuals rather than the corporation and people are not being killed on a daily basis…at least not in relation to the alleged payments.
In my opinion, and I don’t believe I am alone, this was a case brought up by an overzealous, publicity seeking prosecutor and the case will likely end with a whimper rather than a bag. It also appears there is an agenda behind the indictment. Based on the recent actions by the FBI, nothing would surprise me any more.
Looks like we will have to wait some more to know all the details.
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You said: Now comes the FBI and says these student are hiding these payments to play college when they would otherwise be ineligible and hence they are conspiring to defraud schools and we will prosecute to enforce basically NCAA rules even when the alleged victims do not consider themselves victims at all
What are they hiding? We both agree it’s not against the law for these kids to receive this money. So why is the FBI involved. If I’m correct you’re saying because these kids are defrauding Universities like KU? The key point in your belief that makes me stick to the unpaid taxes on monies paid out by the Shoe companies? As you said from your own post The FBI says these students are hiding these payments. Meaning they’re not reporting to the IRS the money they are receiving from the shoe companies.
Can’t you at least see what I’m saying?
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I do get what you are saying but the truth is we don’t know if the receiving parties are hiding the income from the government. Obviously they appear to be hiding it from the schools and that is a NCAA violation and if the schools want redress, Civil Court is the proper forum. Now, if they are hiding the income from the government then it should be the IRS that investigates, at least in the amounts quoted. I would prefer the FBI used its resources to follow leads on potential school shooters, something they failed to do and students got killed, instead of pursuing small time tax evaders…now, that is a real tragedy.
Just my opinion.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
BShark said:
That said I’ve laid out some things in the past. Is it really worth rehashing? It doesn’t change anything. There is a reason Self has a reputation as dirty in coaching and recruiting circles.
Can you please cite reliable sources that indicate that Coach Self has a reputation as dirty in coaching and recruiting circles? Everything I have heard or read about him is the exact opposite.
There was a CBS poll last summer of “over 100” coaches regarding who is considered the “cleanest” college coach, and I was surprised Bill wasn’t among the coaches who got at least 5 votes.
Rank Coach School Percentage
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John Beilein Michigan 26.6
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Mike Brey Notre Dame 10.5
T3. Tony Bennett Virginia 7.6
Greg Gard Wisconsin 7.6
- Mark Few Gonzaga 5.7
T6. Chris Holtmann Ohio State 4.8
T6. Tom Izzo Mich State 4.8
T6. Bruce Weber K State 4.8
– Every coach listed received at least 5 votes
A thought or two on how methodology affects perception: First, as noted, the question posed was “who is the cleanest coach”, which means the voters had to vote for only one. HCBS (and many others) could be universally considered in the top 10, or top 5, or even 2, but his name would not appear in the survey if less than 5 did not consider him cleaner than all others. This is stupid, and misleading, because it does not provide any sense of overall reputations despite purporting to investigate that. (Beilein certainly stands out from the pack, though.)
Second, I suspect Izzo would not make the list now after the accusations and revelations of how he continued to play players accused of assault.
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@DoubleDD The recipients of the payments would be subject to tax evasion charges, of course. James Gatto didn’t receive the payments. The assistant coaches didn’t receive payments. The only folks being charges are those that made the payments, or facilitated the payments. So this has zero to do with taxes – at the moment. It is alleged as a fraud case.
Tax evasion charges, when they arise, are usually occur as part of a scheme, or process that has taken place over time. Otherwise, it’s a internal IRS deal based on an audit or review.
However, I recognize that at some point that might be an issue for a recipient of the payment. It could come about to create leverage for testimony. But right now, it is not.
And unequivocally, without doubt, it is not the reason these charges were filed. You don’t file fraud charges against those that make the payments if your goal is to collect 15% and penalties on a $50,000 payment to an athlete that may go unreported (and, of course, 2017 tax returns aren’t even really due until October 15).
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Did you catch Alan Dershowitz debating Adam Abrams on the Stephanopolous ABC show last Sunday?
Dershowitz, not a Trump fan, schools Abrams on the Special Counsel role and says something along the lines of… .you cannot target people and try to find crimes. I don’t want to bring politics to this discussion and I mentioned this video only to point out the eerie similarities of both cases and how the points Dershowitz makes could also apply to the FBI case against Adidas. Here are more comments by Dershowitzs on the special counsel that could also be made about the current FBI case. As I noted in another post, the special counsel did indict the proverbial ham sandwich when it indicted an company that did not exist at the alleged time of the crime…again, some similarity with the current indictment.
Again, this i not meant to be a political post but one to show the similarities between two misguided (in my opinion) investigations.
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I’m not sure that each coach only voted for one person. It doesn’t specifically say that in the article, although to be perfectly fair, it doesn’t list the methodology at all. As a former researcher, that bothers me that it doesn’t explain whether they asked them for one name, their top three, or otherwise. It would make the numbers a lot easier to understand if that information were out there.
On the other hand, it is sort of implied that maybe there was only one vote per person, but again, its not clear either how the question was presented. Also, it appears they only considered P5 coaches, so coaches like Jay Wright and Mark Few would not have been eligible (not that they would have won), which makes this an even more confusing question to quantify.
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@justanotherfan Not to be Mr. Negative, but unfortunately I would guess the squeaky cleanest of coaches in Div 1 have losing records and don’t last long.
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I don’t think that’s negative. That’s (unfortunately) probably true.
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@justanotherfan I mean negative in that as fans we would like to think it is all a level playing field. We would like our teams regardless of who we support to play by the rules and win.
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@justanotherfan I thought the question was pretty clear:
“Who is the high-major coach you genuinely believe does everything by the book and operates completely within the NCAA’s rulebook?”
That isn’t in the plural.
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@JayHawkFanToo in my opinion, you are the most opinionated poster.
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@wissox NO
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
@JayHawkFanToo in my opinion, you are the most opinionated poster.
Ouch…but seriously, aren’t we all opinionated? Isn’t this what a forum is all about, expressing our opinions? If you don’t agree with what I write you can always state your own opinion, right? Maybe you will convince me to see it your way.
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@JayHawkFanToo you just say in my opinion, a lot. Not right or wrong, just an opinion.
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@Crimsonorblue22 hey, I appreciate the qualification of it being his opinion. To me that seems more honest than stating his opinion as fact.
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Type into Google “Is Kansas basketball dirty”. There’s a lot of people out there that believe we are to some degree.
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wissox said:
Type into Google “Is Kansas basketball dirty”. There’s a lot of people out there that believe we are to some degree.
Exactly. Now obviously there is a bit of jealousy and you can’t believe everything but like I said before, KU basketball players aren’t hurting for anything while they are at KU.
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Interesting article. I saw it at a link posted by @approxinfinity related to coach Self and the big 12 POY discussion. It was the story below it.
https://247sports.com/Article/Report-Rogue-agent-could-trouble-FBI-college-basketball-case-118462529
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I see it this way:
Bill Self is guilty of jaywalking. Yes… technically… it is illegal.
Coaches like Rick Pitino, are guilty of manslaughter.
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@drgnslayr Assumption here … what if Self learned of an Adidas payment to one of our former players, say Josh Jackson, after the fact. And didn’t report it? I think that’s a big deal from a rules violation standpoint. Assumption, of course. But that’s more the scenario I’m concerned about. Not that he had prior knowledge.
Further, the compilation of “knowledge” could be enough for the prosecutor to claim he’s part of a conspiracy. If he was aware of “the game” so to speak, and didn’t work to ensure that the University wasn’t “defrauded.” Ugh.
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@HighEliteMajor is that different than what happened w/billy or cliff?
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I hear what you are saying. I just don’t believe he would let it slide.
I don’t see him risking anything concerning his own reputation or the reputation of the university. And if the university and coaches previously knew nothing about a payment, we should be viewed as “victims” anyways.
If our coaching staff is clean, they should do everything to support their cleanliness. Coverups are usually where people screw up. If our coaches are willing to coverup something they previously knew nothing about… they take on risk for little or no gain.
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Like any other business, everybody in the coaching business knows who the good and bad actors are and there is really not much that can be done other than to try to keep your own program clean.
I would suspect that most coaches insulate themselves from this type of knowledge about their own programs so they can have future plausible deniability.
I would venture to say that Coach Self is generally aware of what goes one but stays out of the details. I would also bet that he did not ask, approve or knew contemporaneously of any of these alleged payments just because of the potential damage to his legacy and “officially” learned about the actual payments at the same time we did.
Laws are like sausages, it is better not to see them being made. - Otto von Bismarck
I think we can safely throw college sports recruiting in the same category.
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My point being? is the only reason the FBI/Government got involved is because there is a lot of money being thrown around and they’re not getting their share. Think about it? What was the crime? What some kid and his folks/handlers lies to a university about receiving funds? You really think the FBI/government got involved because some kid lied to the his school of choice?
Last time I checked there is no law against a shoe company or any company throwing money at young men?
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@DoubleDD If you really think this is about taxes, well, ok then. I have thought about. The theory that this is really about unpaid taxes is (respectfully) nonsensical, in my opinion. No other way to put it.
Your last sentence is telling. And I whole-heartedly agree. But the prosecutor, however, does not. He’s the guy that counts. The theory is fraud. Read the charging complaint at the link below.
And after you do, then let me know how many times you see the word “tax” or “taxes.”
https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/press-release/file/999006/download
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I get what you are saying but it certainly does not look like a tax issue to me. All Adidas has to say is that the money was a gift and the first $14,000 would excempt from taxes and the amount over that would be taxable. Considering that many of the recipients have low incomes, the difference might not be enought to be taxed or the tax would be at the lowest rate; in other words, the tax would be negligible to insignificant since it is not like one recipient got millions but a number of them got smaller amounts instead. One drug bust alone would represent orders of magnitude more money. I just can’t imagine the FBI getting involved for this little money, this is something that the IRS would pursue. BTW, the indictment does not mention tax evation at all.
To me, there is a bigger agenda that we still don’t know and tax evasion is not it. I would be curious to see what part of the argument above you think is incorrect.
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@JayHawkFanToo Actually, I meant to post this long ago: Adidas, not the recipients of the money, would be liable for the gift tax. It is not like lottery or game-show winnings, which are considered income to winners.
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In the last 20 years I have given gifts up to the limit on at least 4 occasions that I remember and every time, as directed by both accountants, I provided a letter to the recipient that the money was a gift which the recipient used for tax purposes. Since the gifts were by design at or just below the limit there was no tax liability anyway.
