Is Bill Self the Cleanest Coach in D1?
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Bill Self never gets his share of OADs, in comparison to a number or other coaches. Doesn’t that suggest Self appears cleaner than the guys that get more OADs/5-stars?
Self has never had more than three 40% trey shooters on a starting five. Doesn’t that suggest he appears cleaner than someone like Jay Wright that has had six on a single team?
Self has never had a team 8-9 deep in 75-100 rank players that were more athletic and better three point shooters than teams with more Top 25 players? Doesn’t that suggest he appears cleaner than someone like Jay Wright?
Self has never left a program with vacated wins and sinking in NCAA infractions. Doesn’t that suggest Self appears cleaner than, say, John Calipari?
Self has never won a ring with a team full of six OADs and a center that a Chicago newspaper reputedly claimed was offered over six figures to play and that refuse to retract its story. Doesn’t that suggest Self appears cleaner than John Calipari and UK that have reputedly faced a similar circumstance?
Self has never had 9-10 OADs on a roster. Doesn’t that suggest that Self appears cleaner than Coach K and John Calipari, who have?
Self has never had a program mired in an Easygate scandal, where it was documented that large numbers of student-athletes and students were given easy courses to help the student athletes stay eligible. Doesn’t that suggest that Self appears cleaner than Roy Williams and UNC, which did get mired in an Easygate scandal.
Is Bill Self the cleanest coach in D1?
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Or maybe Self is cheating just as much as the other guys just to complete as a team not in the ESPN time zone?
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Its possible.
But how can he possibly make $10M per year and not be able to afford to pay MORE than anyone else at least a few years for a 5-star 5? Surely he could afford one 5-star five in 15 recruiting seasons at least once, if he were a big time cheater, right?
I mean between the Boothes and the Kochs and the Anschutzes, and the Adamses, surely this supposed big time cheater Bill Self could afford to pay, oh, say, $500 Million for a 5-star 5, or maybe $1 Billion for 6 OADs in one season, right?
I mean folks like the Boothes, Kochs, Anschutzes, and Adamses like to win as much as we do. I just don’t see how, if Self and KU are such big time cheaters, that these guys can’t bank roll a 10 OAD roster for Bill and he coaches it to an undefeated season and a ring.
These types of folks don’t blink at $500M. Heck, even $1 Billion isn’t what it used to be.
If Bill Self were such a big time cheater, I just can’t believe that he couldn’t drag in enough 5-star and 4-star guys to not have to play Devonte 39 mpg for an entire season.
Surely, a big time cheater ought to be able to fill out a roster with as much talent as Jay Wright at Villanova, right?
Something about Self being a big time cheater just doesn’t add up still.
And frankly, neither does all this talk about him being a big time cheater either.
I’m not saying its not possible.
I’m saying it just doesn’t add up yet to me.
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No
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Maybe
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Damn the Celtics for realizing what they have. So much for my contingency plan.
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BShark said:
No
A little logical analysis can trigger a reactive “no” sometimes.
Some used to like to say that I saw too much darkness in D1, especially before the FBI investigations were announced, but not so much now. Howling!
But I really think its going to take a lot more than what has been indicated and/or leaked about Self and KU, to make it credible that Bill Self and KU are among the big cheaters of D1.
Not. Very. Likely.
Yet.
I suspect a lot of board rats here and fans, even the naive bettors (the professional gamblers have apparently gotten it all along), across the country are going to have to readjust their beliefs and denial after this is all over, regarding what is the norm in college basketball in entertainment value incentivizing during recruiting and during college attendance, and change their expectations even more about what are the extremes. Nevertheless, I remain not just hopeful, but somewhat confident based on who has gotten the bulk of the talent all these years, that Self and KU will at the end at least wind up looking like the leper with the most fingers, when the remaining fingers are counted. And that is all that has ever been claimed for KU by many KU fans that I recall, not that KU was without sin.
By the above, I am NOT saying the wheels of justice will necessarily mete out equitable punishments and spare Self and/or KU. I can’t be confident yet how that will play out.
But I just don’t see any way for The Powers That Be (TPTB) to lower the boom on ALL the EST programs to the degree they appear likely to deserve from their 6-10 OAD teams of the recent past. My hunch is one program, or maybe two, each from EST, CST, MST, and PST will be treated as sacrificial lambs, to make it look “unbiased”, so that others can be raised up after, as the “virtuous,” to carry on the cash register ringing that is the NCAA regular season and March Carney.
It even appears some times that NOVA might perhaps have been elevated the last couple seasons, maybe in anticipation of the investigations, to replace the one or two EST teams that might have to be sacrificed.
I don’t claim there is a grand conspiracy in this. I believe things are largely entertainment value driven, not so much criminal conspiracy driven (at least in the big picture), and so I don’t believe broad criminal conspiracies are necessary in this sort of context. There just has to be some order imposed to keep the golden eggs coming to the right people, and squeeze out a few of those that are not wanted in the club, or that are somehow preventing the club from optimizing in ways we ordinary folk can’t grasp. I don’t really see this as a cynical POV, rather as real politik and real economik POV in a real world. But as always, may I remind, that I am just a layman and a fan speculating solely based on remote observation, and am NOT a legal professional.
Could KU be the CST school sacrificed? Anything is possible, when sacrifices are being sought. It certainly wouldn’t hurt ratings and betting rates to have the Texas schools start winning the Big 12 and NOT having KU sub optimizing eyeballs and clicks in the Sweet 16, Elite Eight and Final Four as frequently as KU shows up in those.
Could Arizona be the PST school that gets sacrificed. Looks like it already is, but who can say for sure.
Will someone in EST get sacrificed? Seems likely for appearances. Will it be Duke, UK, or UNC? Only if absolutely necessary, to make the knuckle draggers keep coming gullibly to the March Carney. But my guess is that just won’t be necessary. My guess is Louisville, or someone else, like them,will be the sacrificial lamb for the EST. Louisville is a cheap sacrifice, since they are already beaten down to begin with.
So: here is one hypothetical scenario: Louisville, KU, Arizona are the only big names that are drug through the mud and Self/KU is penalized for having done relatively little wrong. Adidas winds up the net loser with its two big basketball programs put on the ropes for awhile. Nike takes minor hits to make it look “unbiased” along petroshoeco brands, and ASU, or USC takes up the NIKE slack in the PST.
It is worth remembering that when corruption is really widespread in a field, not infrequently the object of commissions and investigations appears just to be to limit the damage and knowledge of what has really been going on, fashion a palatable explanation, produce a couple scapegoats, and let everyone else constitute a status quo that is “clean” and that can move on and continue the gravy train and essentially help deny the corrpution was widespread in quid pro quo for getting to continue the corruption. This is apparently what we are witnessing currently with the widely reputed (and increasingly documented) pedophile rings in Washington, New York, London and Hollywood that are reputedly used to keep the corruption in those hub cities of the empire in line and playing ball. This was what we saw in the attempts to get Trump, in 9-11, Iran-Contra, Watergate, and the Kennedy assassination. Those that expect there to be widespread corruption in college basketball should, therefore, expect a similar paving over of most of what is wrong and a few scapegoats, not much more.
But in the end, I expect the process will likely reveal, inspite of itself, perhaps even because of the predictability of processes like this, that Self/KU, whether scapegoated, or not, was among the lesser offenders, if they in fact did anything wrong at all. And it is already reputed that FBI/DOJ define KU, at least, as a victim, not the perpetrator, if I recall correctly. This apparently conveniently enlists the university in the FBI/DOJ investigation in order to save itself from being treated as a perp. It also, presumably, makes the university more willing to let Self be the scapegoat, if it were to become expedient to do so.
I guess this may be just how things are done in the big time, when big money is involved and “entertainment values” appear to rule.
But as an ordinary KU fan, what I really believe and expect is most probable is that Self is clean and playing within the rules, however imperfectly they are drawn, and does not deserve what has come his way during this investigation.
Rock Chalk!
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Is Bill Self clean? I believe he is, if for no other reason than thinking what recruit would be worth risking his legacy and everything he wants to accomplish moving forward? No recruit!
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drgnslayr said:
Is Bill Self clean? I believe he is, if for no other reason than thinking what recruit would be worth risking his legacy and everything he wants to accomplish moving forward? No recruit!
PHOF
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I ask the question again: is Bill Self the cleanest coach in D1?
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The answer is still no. Too many shady recruits that KU won, or was involved in to believe Self is fully clean. Rumors have long been that Self is one of the dirtiest in the game along with Pitino, Cal etc… So he certainly isn’t the cleanest, by any stretch of the imagination.
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@BShark I’m curious as to what you mean by dirty? Like, actively paying players? What are the specifics of the rumors, as I apparently have not been privy to them (other than general whining by some other fan bases).
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Yes, paying players. KU basketball players certainly aren’t hurting for cash, for whatever reason, at least they weren’t when I was there. It’s been awhile but Self was the coach.
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@jaybate-1.0 Probably not, but works harder than all to be that way.
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BShark said:
The answer is still no. Too many shady recruits that KU won, or was involved in to believe Self is fully clean. Rumors have long been that Self is one of the dirtiest in the game along with Pitino, Cal etc… So he certainly isn’t the cleanest, by any stretch of the imagination.
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You appear not to be really answering the question I ask: Is Self the cleanest coach in D1?
Who believes any coach in D1 is totally clean? I am a realist. I suspect everyone bends the rules at least a little and some a lot!
You appear to be answering another question I haven’t asked. It would go like this: Is Self’s reputation as dubious as Cal’s and Pitino’s. You indicate rumors long indicate it is so.
But your support appears unpersuasive, so far.
You appear to be alleging without apparent support that Self is comparable to Pitino, who left Louisville in Deep do-do. But so far Self has left not even one of the four schools he has coached at in Deep do-do. Therefore that seems a not very apt comparison, regardless of what rumors you have “heard.” Put another way, the rumors you have long heard don’t appear to square with known events so far, do they?
You also appear to be comparing Self to Cal, who has left in his wake 2 of 3 programs with some vacated wins and so forth. I do not recall that Self has left in his wake (so far) any of the four schools he has coached at with similar issues. Therefore, this too seems a not very apt comparison, regardless of what rumors you have long “heard.” So far, the rumors you claim to have long heard have not appeared to square with known events.
I am left wondering why you place so much stock in the reputedly long heard rumors? At some point, don’t you begin to wonder more about the veracity of the rumors than about Self rumored being comparable to Pitino and Cal?
Given Jay Bilas and the late Indiana Professor Murray and Don Wetzel, I am goaded into thinking most schools incentivize players, bend recruiting rules and bend rules to get them admitted and to keep them eligible.
I’ve also not heard many argue the Self and KU are among the dirtiest coaches and programs in D1.
So let’s give you yet another chance to persuade us?
Lets rephrase my question to reflect your allegations based on reputedly long held rumors: Which coaches by name do you claim are cleaner than Self in D1?
If you put such stock in the long reputed rumors that you claim appear to make Self out to be comparable to Pitino and Cal, these long heard rumors likely also indicate, or at least suggest, who is not comparable to Self, Pitino and Cal?
Can’t be Coach K, because of the picture Jay Bilas painted of his time at Duke, right? Plus there was the player with the jewelry issue, right? And there were those conspicuous 9 OADs on one team, right?
Therefore Coach K seems a not very apt comparison, regardless of what you have “heard.”
How about Bruce Pearl. Um, no. Forget Bruce.
Jay Wright? The guy is a lifetime .600 coach before bagging 2 rings in three years under somewhat mysterious circumstances. Along the way he gets 6 > 39% trifectates including two trey balling trifectate post men…on the same team? Let’s pass on Jay, shall we?
Can’t be Roy Williams right? He was reputedly at UNC around the birth of the shoe thing with Sonny and Dean, right? He reputedly divided the country for recruiting with Dean, right? Roy had his Myron Piggie/Jaron Rush moment at KU, too, right? He had his reputed issues that cost Self some schools early on, right? And he faced Easygate in Chapel Hill, right?
Probably not Jim Calhoun, right? Or Sean Miller? No and no.
How about Izzo? Well, maybe not Tom either, given the player rape stuff that overhangs MSU and his program.
How about Steve Alford? Well, if Self were a bad egg that would mean Alford takes Self’s damaged goods as transfers, right?
How about Bo Ryan? Oops, he was unfaithful to his wife. Not just a rumor either.
Bob Huggins? Remember the Natti? Remember Beasley and the other guy that followed him to KSU? Um, prolly not Huggy bear.
Who else? Tim Floyd? Nah, prolly not.
Tubbie Smith? Pitino guy. Tulsa guy before Self. Coached UK. Nuff said.
Squeaky in Manhattan? Recruited and later coached Self’s guys at Illinois. Came to KSU which hired guys like Huggins and Frankie Martin. He’s practically Self and Huggins and Frankie but with a hair helmet. Right?
This is tough.
But I believe you can find someone at least possibly cleaner than Self in D1, but even you might have to stretch to find a lot of them, right?
But Self might also be the leper with the most fingers!!!
Rock Chalk!
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@BShark You call yourself a KU fan and yet here you are saying Bill Self is “dirty” and/or corrupt.
Coach Self has been a boy scout since he started coaching. Does he pay players? I seriously doubt it. If he did, why dont we have a mega stack of OAD 5 star players every season like UK and Duke? Hmm? You and @wissox say he is dirty. I say PROVE IT or GTFO. No room on this website for haters.
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@Lulufulu Dirty is a relative term.
So let’s try this, as a simple question: Do you think it plausible that the head coach of a blue blood D-1 program would have zero knowledge of payments by shoe companies to players made to influence their college selection?
Not specifics, but the fact that it is occurring.
See, if Self knew of payments, the next question becomes was he ever aware of payments to Kansas players during his tenure.
And if he knew of a prior payment, and didn’t “self-report” (no pun intended) – is he dirty, or not?
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@HighEliteMajor The slippery Jo Pa slope. Should’ve drawn a line somewhere. He didn’t and it ended up killing him.
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@Lulufulu Show me where I said he is dirty, and if so then I will get the frogs out. And as much as @BShark is on here I’m convinced he’s a genuine KU fan. I’m sorry that someone questioning our team objectively has offended you.
And what Duke and UK do has nothing to do with this discussion. We’re not discussing whether they’re dirty.
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All these things are true. Bill Self is clean. KU doesn’t pay players. KU doesn’t participate in exclusively clean recruitments.
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I want to believe.
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Me too.
Its a movement.
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@HighEliteMajor Those are very valid questions HEM. I appreciate that.
We should all know on this site, as long life KU fans, that Bill Self is highly intelligent, has been in the game for a very long time, under the tutelage of next level coaches and mentors and he is not naïve. Of course he knows there are payments to student atheletes.
I have no way of knowing, however, if Coach Self knew about the alleged payments to Josh or to Silvio or to Billy.
But, I sincerely believe that Coach Self is a man of high integrity and he would not willingly let something like that slide and risk damaging his own or the programs.
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@wissox I was referring to your post 4 days ago RE: is Bill Self a dirty coach?
I suppose I could have misinterpreted your intensions. It just read to me initially like you were calling him out for being corrupt or dirty.
Its all good man. I get protective of my boys. Its probly not wise of me to believe that KU will always have a halo over their heads.
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drgnslayr said:
Is Bill Self clean? I believe he is, if for no other reason than thinking what recruit would be worth risking his legacy and everything he wants to accomplish moving forward? No recruit!
Your logic appeals to my reason.
Another thing…once a guy makes $10M/yr 2 to 3 years in a row, what is the incentive to act in ways that the FBI finds to be criminal and so maybe never get to spend it? I know rich persons occasionally lose their principles–lose sight of how good they have it–and violate the law some times. I have not statistics on this sort of thing, but they appear to do this mostly when they are in danger of: a.) going upside down financially; b.) stand to make a monster speculative fortune; or c.) get compromised by some predators and threatened into doing it. I don’t see any signs of any of these three drivers in Self’s case, do you? I mean, I suppose any of them are possible, but I haven’t observed anything to make me suspect such.
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I agree.
However, some people who become “rich and famous” gradually lose their values over time because of the feeling of invincibility. I just don’t see that in Bill. I’ve chatted with him every year for several years and he just doesn’t seem to differ much (except continuing to grow as a coach). He has so many people around him, both family and friends… and then coaching mentors… I just can’t see him doing anything to lose face with the people around him who have helped form him so much.
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What if Coach Self is found to have been the guy we both believe him to be?
Who will give him back his reputation?
It makes me sad.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@Lulufulu Dirty is a relative term.
So let’s try this, as a simple question: Do you think it plausible that the head coach of a blue blood D-1 program would have zero knowledge of payments by shoe companies to players made to influence their college selection?
Not specifics, but the fact that it is occurring.
See, if Self knew of payments, the next question becomes was he ever aware of payments to Kansas players during his tenure.
And if he knew of a prior payment, and didn’t “self-report” (no pun intended) – is he dirty, or not?
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Do you think it plausible that the head coach of a blue blood D-1 program and other coaches, players, cheerleaders, trainers, students, alums, ADs, Chancellors, NCAA directors, NCAA staff, law enforcement (local, state and Federal), prosecutors, lawyers, judges, Congressmen, Senators, and Presidents would have zero knowledge of payments by shoe companies to players made to influence their college selection?
Not specifics, but the fact that it is occurring
So: if Self and all coaches, players, cheerleaders, trainers, students, alums, ADs, Chancellors, NCAA directors, NCAA staff, law enforcement (local, state and Federal), prosecutors, lawyers, judges, Congressmen, Senators, and Presidents knew about payments, and didn’t self-report, are they dirty, or not?
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Those same people that defame him did so far before this situation. That crowd merely looks for opportunities to trash him.
Let’s see where this goes. I still feel optimistic.
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@jaybate-1.0 If you go by the 90% of Buckets participants who “know” Calipari has been dirty from UMass through Memphis to UK despite any direct evidence, then your question that conveniently excludes “specifics” answers itself: anyone who generally suspects something could not plausibly claim not to know of it.
But in actuality, specifics are crucial, and thus the need for having evidence before something you suspect is something you “know”.
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@jaybate-1-0 And to your question, it goes to the very heart of why this “stuff” is not a crime. My guess is everyone in the system – the chancellor, the AD, the NCAA, and so on, knew. Where is your victim then? It’s the monolithic university, necessarily devoid of human actors, it appears.
So, I come back to my question … it really comes down to the definition of “dirty.” What is “dirty”?
It is a quite relative inquiry. And, again, it’s why the prosecution of these actions is an unmitigated joke.
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mayjay said:
@jaybate-1.0 If you go by the 90% of Buckets participants who “know” Calipari has been dirty from UMass through Memphis to UK despite any direct evidence, then your question that conveniently excludes “specifics” answers itself: anyone who generally suspects something could not plausibly claim not to know of it.
But in actuality, specifics are crucial, and thus the need for having evidence before something you suspect is something you “know”.
Does this mean you pick Cal as a cleaner coach than Bill Self?
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@jaybate-1.0 That is quite a twisted inference from my post. Let me try again, based solely on how I think about it:
I suspect Cal may be dirty based on some of the people around him. I do not suspect HCBS of being dirty. If forced to conclude one way or the other, I would have to conclude there is no firm evidence of either being dirty.
As to whether they themselves suspect any players of illicit benefits, I hope and assume that they would investigate any hints or evidence coming their way, and I believe we have seen that. But I do not expect them to spent all their time being forensic accountants or financial cops, or turning kids down because they made the KU choice late in the game. (Are we suspicious of Shady’s last-minute dream?)
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Where is World Wide Wes these days?
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mayjay said:
@jaybate-1.0 That is quite a twisted inference from my post. Let me try again, based solely on how I think about it:
I suspect Cal may be dirty based on some of the people around him. I do not suspect HCBS of being dirty. If forced to conclude one way or the other, I would have to conclude there is no firm evidence of either being dirty.
As to whether they themselves suspect any players of illicit benefits, I hope and assume that they would investigate any hints or evidence coming their way, and I believe we have seen that. But I do not expect them to spent all their time being forensic accountants or financial cops, or turning kids down because they made the KU choice late in the game. (Are we suspicious of Shady’s last-minute dream?)
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Your response above and some of your recent previous responses made me wonder the following:
1.) Was your response convenient?
2.) Was it projecting about my post being twisted?
3.) Are you in actuality suspicious of Shady’s last-minute dream and what *firm evidence” makes you be suspicious or were your words just conveniently mentioning that?
4.) Do you have firm evidence indicating your recently claimed number of 90% of Buckets posters thinking what you claim they think regarding Cal?
REGARDLESS: thanks for taking the time to “try again” to help me understand your POV “based solely on the way you think about it”.
It made me wonder. And that’s good.
Hang in, eventually the authorities will get this sorted out!
Be of good cheer.
As a layman, I have long suspected all the observable asymmetries and the likely apparently unobservable activities apparently required to enable the observable asymmetries and anomalies were likely manifestations of probably legal apparent entertainment values in operation. I strongly doubted illegal conspiracy as an explanation of very much, if anything at all. All but proven conspiracy theories are mostly for suckers IMHO.
BUT…since the FBI/DOJ apparently suspect (allege? charge?) something illegal is operating, well, I am a layman willing to take a dutiful wait and see attitude, so they can do an ethical, professional job of investigation and adjudication.
It saddens me to think there may be a vast illegal/criminal conspiracy that has college sports generally in its dastardly grip. I am flabbergasted that anyone suspects Bill Self could be one of its criminal masterminds, or even stooges.
But the end of the Cold War and record declassifications reputedly now show the McCarthy Era, vicious and opportunistic as it reputedly was at times, turns out was apparently not totally a witch hunt. There really were communists and communist informants in our government, same as there are reputedly foreign assets and informants in high and low places today.
So: I suppose it’s possible Jay Wright, Coach K, Cal and Self could all be criminally masterminding everything. It’s possible Russia, or PRC, or even tiny Israel has turned them all. But I still doubt it. Don’t you?
Nevertheless, I enthusiastically support a fair, legal and ethical investigation and adjudication by the FBI/DOJ. Heck, I would even like to see a commission plus all levels of law enforcement investigate sport for the criminal and Intel money laundering I suspect could conceivably be going on in college sports betting, even though if I were forced to choose, I would probably choose that it was probably not going on.
Regardless, god bless America!
Rock Chalk!
P.S.: And I want to applaud you for NOT using SMH!
