Perfect Three Man Recruiting Class?



  • @JayHawkFanToo

    “I am always leery of players that have to lose that much weight to be competitive.”

    I am, too. I’d rather the guy just try to build strength and be dominant with size and strength. It is a risk when athletes drop much weight that it doesn’t always translate into explosiveness. Every athlete has their own unique DNA, so basic principles of physics can’t be prescribed as treatment.

    If most of these guys just build the right kind of strength, based on maximizing their quick-twitch potential, they will become very quick, especially for their size. To be the fastest guy at your big size will buy you a ticket into the league (within reason).

    This idea that athletes change their physical aspects to a huge degree to be something they aren’t will usually backfire. Build on what they already are…

    We experienced this in a major way with Withey. He did it the right way. He built on to what he was, instead of going over the top into what he wasn’t. He just wasn’t going to become a much heavier version post player. But he did put on several pounds of muscle which helped him play the game he already knew how to play, but with added athleticism.

    Very few fans realize just how hard Withey worked to become a stronger player. He is definitely one of Hudy’s prized examples of success.



  • @drgnslayr .@justanotherfan

    I agree. It is a lot easier to work with players that need to gain weight because you can always develop muscle mass and make him a better athlete. The opposite, players that need to lose some or a lot of weight, always end up in the wrong end of the scale. Look at our own Sherron Collins, for all the work he did to lose and maintain the lower weight, he was constantly fighting an uphill battle, and not even the prospect of an NBA career could get him to lose and keep the lower weight; a 30-40 pound lighter Sherron could be balling in the NBA now.



  • I’d rather get 3 TRobs!



  • I like the idea of Dorsey, Bragg, and Davis. Good thought put into choosing those 3.

    The espn profile on Davis isn’t up to date. The kid has gotten into much better shape and was dominant over the weekend in the tourney Zimmerman was named MVP before getting an injury. His ceiling is as high as other high ranked C’s and will just need the right program to bring that out (KU).

    I’m willing to raise you sort of a different set of 3 in my opinion. Jaylen Brown’ Cheick Diallo Carlton Bragg

    I think Brown is as close to a 1 and done as it gets. Reminds me a lot of incoming Arizona freshman Stanley Johnson. Powerful combo guard who can defend multipe positions and is super athletic. Sounds like he would fit with Bill Self just fine.

    Diallo is sort of like Embiid, raw in area’s but a tremendous talent that just needs the right coaching before going to the league. Great shot-blocker, great motor, would be the ideal rim protector and upside talent Self could make into a lottery pick.

    Bragg reminds me so much of Darrell Arthur, and from a potential/already polished player he would be ideal for early playing time.



  • Am I the only one that doesn’t put much stock in videos of recruits playing against HS competition? They rarely reveal the quality of the competition, the skills of the coach trying to stop them, and even the skills of his own coach who may coach him to let him pad his stats. Is it some all star type game when defenses often rest? Sorry, I just have to trust the experts instead of these videos!

    But I do like your thinking as always HEM, bring in some guys with some sticking power. Of course it’s been discussed with some seriousness lately about changing the rules again and having these guys stick around a while longer in college and of course that changes the discussion too.



  • @wissoxfan83 HS videos I agree, but AAU videos are different. But either way you can still see what types of hands they have, foot movement and other mechanics.



  • @wissoxfan83

    The key to watching the videos is to ignore the competition and look for specific skills. I look for athleticism, shooting mechanics, ball handling ability and the type of plays they try to make and can make.

    For example, my hesitation with Tyler Dorsey comes not just from his size, but also from the fact that almost every jumpshot he takes is pretty closely challenged. He’s a 2 guard, and in college he will have to deal with a 6-4 athlete every single night out. Can he still knock down those 20 footers with that type of defender on him? Also, the fact that he can’t shake free of some of these guys is a concern as to whether he will be able to get his own shot at the D1 level. Is he quick enough and explosive enough to do that? The tape calls that into question. I like his ball handling and his shooting mechanics, but his athleticism gives me pause.

    On the other hand I look at a guy like Carlton Bragg and you see a 6-9 guy with quickness, lots of explosive bounce, decent ball handling skills and good shooting mechanics. That means that he probably won’t have any issues against bigger players because he’s such a good athlete already. Look at him run the floor in the videos above - he runs the floor with the speed and agility of a guard. That’s what makes me think he’s an OAD.

    When watching the shooting mechanics, I specifically focus on the release point. Is it high? Is it consistent? Is it fluid? That’s what makes me love Kelly Oubre’s shot. If guys have a lower release point, they will struggle as the competition improves (i.e. gets bigger and more athletic). Oubre’s shot is high and smooth.

    I want to see guys that can elevate and dunk in traffic, particularly for bigger players. That was always a concern for me with our own Perry Ellis. He didn’t elevate in traffic and finish over guys at the high school level, which made me worry that he would struggle against bigger players in college. Guess what? When Perry Ellis faces guys bigger than him, he often struggles to finish around the rim. If you watch Bragg, you see the difference and realize that he probably will not have that same problem. If you can’t elevate and finish over a 6-4 post player, you aren’t going to be able to elevate and finish over a 6-9 guy.

    I’m also very picky when watching guards to see the type of decisions they are making. Do they give the ball up on time on the break, or do they hold it too long. Those late decisions won’t burn you in high school, but in college against better athletes and better overall players, it will haunt you to no end. Do they throw a bounce pass when they should? Do they seem to have command of the floor, or do they just make plays because they are bigger/ stronger than their opponents?



  • @drgnslayr thanks for the film.

    I am in the camp that Ellis won’t turn pro. But Self has to recruit as if he will. Kind of a different subject, but this is where I don’t understand the mindset of Landen Lucas, for example. We talks sometimes about guys getting “recruited over.” Such is the life of Landen Lucas.

    Great kid, and could be playing right now in many, many other places. I get the KU thing, but he’ll never get the years back. He’s now had two seasons of bench time, and appears to be staring a competition with Mickelson in the face just to be the 4th big. I understand that things could break right for him, but if not, he’s in the same role he was last season. And if we land a Zimmerman, or a top tier post talent for 2015-16, and Ellis stays, he’s still behind the new recruit, Ellis, and Traylor (not even considering Mickelson). And then he has just one season to play. Seems like the battle with Mickelson is literally the battle of his college career.

    Back to recruiting, I agree the weight issue is a consideration for Davis, but seriously, where better for the kid to go? We have the best trainer. If he comes here, I cannot imagine that weight/being in shape will hold him back. And know the type of trainer that is at KU, in advance, would indicate that he isn’t a lazy kid. But I agree. Would you rather have someone without weight issues? Sure. But I’d take this risk, as opposed to a chiseled OAD.



  • Davis has gotten into much better shape over the summer. I don’t think his weight is of much concern anymore, he has a similar build of Landon Lucas that can be fine-tuned by Hudy and the staff. His basketball ceiling might be much higher as his ranking would indicate but I do think if he came to KU that any weight concern would be washed away.

    Dorsey would be a great pickup for a combo guard and someone we could get 2-3 years out of before the NBA train came calling.

    I think KU will hit big in 2015 in recruiting, just waiting for the first domino to fall.



  • @HighEliteMajor Didn’t I see you over on kusports talking about Zimmerman being the ideal recruit? 🙂



  • @icthawkfan316 Uh, yea … and actually, I still think that. I do not think Zimmerman will be a OAD. My post here was more to avoid guys that are even in that consideration. I saw a post above referencing that Bragg might be. That’s the difficulty with my simplistic analysis. There’s a grey area - a maybe, maybe not. Or guys like Embiid who vault into that status. I mentioned Zimmerman here being on the fringe.

    What do you think on Zimmerman, or everyone else for that matter? I love the guy. Would like to have him over Davis in a minute, but for the damned OAD possibility. So yes, I’m conflicted.

    By the way, I really enjoyed reading everyone’s posts. Gets the mind a thinkin’.

    Heck, I even pulled @konkeyDong out of the woods … anything that does that is a good thing, I think.



  • @HighEliteMajor I’m the same way, that I think Zimmerman won’t be a OAD and should definitely be Self’s #1 recruiting target. I was just giving you a little crap cuz I remembered reading that, but saw he wasn’t included in your ideal recruiting class.

    I too am in the camp that would like us to get off the OAD merry-go-round. However, something that always sticks in the back of my mind is the possibility of the NBA raising its age limit. Whoever has some of the higher ranked prospects from the year whenever they raise it will suddenly have some OAD players for two years and could really have an advantage.

    P.S. You should go over to my “how good is the big 12” thread. Love to hear your opinion, mostly because I think you’ll be more in my camp and would articulate arguments better than I can.



  • I finally took the time to really check out Stephen Zimmerman. My thoughts:

    First things first, he’s a lefty big man, which you rarely see. That’s intriguing all by itself. He’s a little thin on the frame, but I think he could fill out, so its not a huge negative. Definitely something to watch for as he goes through his senior year, though. I’d like to see him closer to 260 than the 235-240 he is right now.

    Positives: He’s very agile and mobile for his size. If he’s a legit 7-0 (and he looks it) he moves extremely well. He’s very fluid in his movement, which is important since he’s a pretty tall, lanky kid. He has some explosion in his body, which allows him to finish in traffic even though he doesn’t look very strong. He has a nice shooting stroke out to at least 17, maybe even a bit further. I could definitely see him developing touch out to the three point line if he doesn’t already have it, because the mechanics are excellent. Great footwork in the post suggests that his is either very gifted naturally or has been coached extremely well. Knows how to use his head fakes, up and unders, etc. Can high point the ball on defense to get blocks. Handles the ball well on offense, although there is the danger that he thinks he is a better ball handler than he actually is.

    Negatives: His body is probably not quite D1 ready. Very little muscle tone and quite thin. He will need to develop a lot of strength, especially in his lower half, or he will get pushed around in the post by smaller (but stronger) players. Does everything with the left hand. I watched several highlight videos and didn’t see a single righty block or layup. He also tries to put the ball on the floor more than you would like to see from a big man.

    Overall: I think a lot of Zimmerman, honestly. When I watched his highlights I had a flashback to something I saw back in the late 1990’s. I don’t think he is nearly as polished, but watch

    and tell me that his shooting and ball handling don’t look similar. I think if he can add a little weight and strength, he is almost certainly an OAD player. He may stay two years to get his body ready, though.



  • @justanotherfan I can see it, take away the domination against inferior athletes from Zimmerman’s mix tapes, and you’re left with a skinny big who makes good decisions, who isn’t afraid to put it on the floor and attack the basket, and has a nice balanced shooting stroke.

    (I have no speakers at present. apologies if the music sucks)



  • @approxinfinity and @justanotherfan

    Thanks for the vid feed!

    I’ll be surprised if Zimmerman doesn’t become a Jayhawk. He just looks like the right fit.

    You know a footer is the real deal when you watch him play and realize he would still be great even if he was only 6’8".

    Zim is the real deal. He seems like the ultimate Bill Self player, even if he is thin. He’ll strengthen up under Hudy.



  • Although he looks skinny, he is really not that skinny. At 240 lbs. he is about 5 pounds heavier than Withey, about the same weight of Aldrich, and Lucas, 5 lbs. lighter than Markiff and Michelson and 10 pound lighter than Embiid, KU’s recent and most comparable players. Unless he has problems putting weight like Withey did, I can see Hudy getting him to 250 in his first season.



  • I’d like to see a dance contest between Zim and Withey…

    I think the winner would reveal a lot more than just showing how badly he missed the disco era.

    When Manning was in HS, I watched him carry 8 beers over his head through a moving crowd of people without spilling a drop. That’s when I went over and introduced myself and let him know how impressed I was with his agility.

    Zim could carry 8 beers through a crowd of people without spilling a drop. I’m not saying he is the next Danny Manning… I’m just saying he is the real deal and capable of making a big footprint on college basketball!



  • @drgnslayr Or… The best waiter around!



  • Tyler Davis to Texas A&M. Really surprised he went there. Really surprised he didn’t take his visit to KU or Baylor as he was high on them as well.

    There’s one domino of the 3 man class gone. Who replaces him now?

    Zimmerman is likely to headed to Arizona either with Ivan Rabb together or if Rabb somehow doesn’t go there. Look at the list of Zona kids that have come from their AAU team and tell me that KU or any other program involved really has a chance. I could be wrong but that AAU team is like the Arizona farm system lately. I haven’t put any thought into KU landing either for that vary reason.

    He would be a great get, but he’s not to this point a traditional low post 7 footer. I would have preferred Davis but if we do somehow land Zimmerman, hopefully his game becomes what Self would want from a 7 footer.



  • @BeddieKU23 said:> he went there. Really surprised he didn’t take his visit to KU or Baylor as he was high on them as well.

    There’s one domino of the 3 man class gone. Who replaces him now?

    Zimmerman is likely to headed to Arizona either with Ivan Rabb together or if Rabb somehow doesn’t go there. Look at the list of Zona kids that have come from their AAU team and tell me that KU or any other program involved really has a chance. I could be wrong but that AAU team is like

    Yeah, gotta say, Davis was a big surprise. It was only a month or so ago that he said in an interview that Zona and KU were his top choices. Recruiting turns on a dime, I guess. I’ve heard both ways about Zimmerman: he’ll stay out west, or he’s hot on KU. Personally, I think he stays out west, but I also thought we were in pole position with Davis, so shows what I know…



  • @konkeyDong Recruiting turns on a dime, I guess. When can he actually sign? More than likely is dollars instead of dimes…JMO



  • @BeddieKU23

    “He would be a great get, but he’s not to this point a traditional low post 7 footer. I would have preferred Davis but if we do somehow land Zimmerman, hopefully his game becomes what Self would want from a 7 footer.”

    You really nailed it.

    But Self has become more open-minded in the past few years and so I am of the belief he is totally going after Zim… especially after we missed on Turner a few months ago.

    Either one of these guys could help Self make the case to land Thon after that.

    Self knows that the times are changing… and there are footers out there with guard-like skills, including netting the long ball. We have to be able to offer these guys more than the Self hi/lo. The Self hi/lo is perfect for guys like Cliff… but there are more and more thin trees out there that can handle the ball and shoot from the perimeter. We need to be able to use these guys, too, and that won’t be with the hi/lo.

    Imagine the nasty sets you could run on offense if you had both Zim and Maker on the same team? Then, make sure to have a wicked swing 3 that can cut in and score inside when teams have to send their post players out on the perimeter to guard these guys.

    There are so many great players out there that don’t fit traditional molds and those are guys that are hard to coach against, too.



  • The following link is a solid (or not so solid) reason why any recruit would be crazy to sign with Arizona or UCLA:

    What do you know… there is a crack bigger than Calipari’s mouth!



  • Ugh … Davis goes to A&M, Shepherd last year to TCU. Weird. You’re Tyler Davis and you want to play in the NBA; and you choose A&M?

    Makes me wonder. Makes me wonder if he got a conditional offer from Self? Perhaps given the limited number of scholarships?

    “Hey, yea, we want you, but we need to see where other guys sort out.”



  • I heard he didn’t think he’d get the playing time at Kansas.



  • Diallo comes to mind as a player I think could play C and give us a rim protector/high energy/rebounding machine. I think his upside is similar to Embiid’s and we know Self can help with that department. I’m just not sold on Zim in our system unless Self does indeed start switching things up. He had problems adjusting this summer to playing with a new AAU team. He got much better over the course of the summer but what will his transition period to College be for such a highly rated player. Will he struggle early and turn it on like Perry Ellis did as a freshman? I think its clear that whoever Self gets in this class he’s going to want them to be a feature of the rotation, especially if the situation occured that both Alexander and Ellis went pro.

    Back to Davis, it makes you wonder if he was thrown off by all the Big’s visiting KU for Late Night. Did Self stop focusing on Davis, and more on Zim, Diallo, Bragg etc? Legit questions we might never know.I can understand him staying close to home and being able to be a feature in their offense with their C being a Senior, but the kid never once said A&M was a leader. KU, Baylor, and Zona were always mentioned as his supposed “top 3”. I’m not buying the playing time factor because if he’s as good as he has shown this summer, he would have a legit chance to start as a freshman.



  • I know the prevailing thought is that we need a rim protector … a true center type.

    My thought has always been that we really don’t. Give me two bad a**, athletic 4s that can play D and score, and I don’t think that causes us any issues. See 2008. We did have Kaun off the bench as a nice change-up.

    @Crimsonorblue22 that seems odd to me. Sure, maybe his freshman season might be a bit limited, but he’d be the man after that in the middle.

    On to the next thing, as it always is in recruiting.



  • @HighEliteMajor He may have to fess up like that on occasion if he’s pinned down by a kid who thinks he’s a OAD.



  • @HighEliteMajor

    “My thought has always been that we really don’t. Give me two bad a**, athletic 4s that can play D and score, and I don’t think that causes us any issues. See 2008. We did have Kaun off the bench as a nice change-up.”

    I agree… and it will be good for our guards to know they have to play defense. These past years were not up to snuff on the perimeter. Having the best shot blocker in college basketball worked against us often because it just enabled our guards to not play defense. The biggest element of defense is desire… we all need to remember that.

    Perry also was enabled in the post.

    This new team needs a new mindset. Everyone pulls their weight, on both sides of the ball. We have a bunch of tough, physical guys who seem to want to really get after it.

    Did I say how excited I was for tip-off?



  • @drgnslayr That’s a very good point. Self has conditioned us to be most attentive to the defensive end of the floor. When it is subpar, like last season, we feel like we’re in a different world.

    We are basically 60 days away … less than that until camp opens. God bless America.


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