Is it too Soon?
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I have high hopes that the 2 most improved players will be Mason and CF and that this will be our first year in a few years with consistent play from the PG positions. I expect CF to get more minutes which means more confidence which means more 3’s going in the basket. I expect Mason to play more under control and to have a better shot which will make his defender more honest.
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The Wiggins trade talk is pissing me off, too. He is being dealt away for 1-yrs service of Love (since he becomes a free agent next year). The T-wolves are laughing their arses off if this deal happens.
I read that Coach K said he would trade him, too. But I would bet anyone in here a million bucks he wouldn’t have said that if it was Parker on the blocks. I haven’t been pleased with Coach K recently and his comments. He should keep his head down and try to make it to the Sweet 16 next year.
Most improved Jayhawk? My answer is a 7-way tie.
Mason, Selden, Ellis, Traylor, Frankamp, Greene, Lucas… All of these guys should be highly improved from last year. A big mistake would be to forget Traylor. He has the right kind of size and athleticism to be a deadly inside offensive force. This is the summer he is dedicating to offense. Another big reason Ellis is fighting hard this summer to improve is because Traylor is hot on his trail for minutes. Traylor is already the better defender.
I’m not including any freshmen because it is hard to translate their improvements from HS or Euro ball.
But I’m expecting immediate contributions from all our freshmen. That will not only bring contributions but big time entertainment. Alexander should spend his summer studying old Chocolate Thunder footage… Oubre is just a flat-out baller… Svi is going to shock people with his court awareness and basketball IQ… and Graham is skillful in all ways and will show us some nice things soon.
I still have a question mark beside Mickelson. Just haven’t seen much of his play. I think he will be a decent shot-blocker, but more… I think he’ll be a very solid rebounder! I’m not sure how he fits in a Self hi-lo. Can he score with his back to the basket?
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The main conditions for the trade is that Love signs an extended contracts with the Cavaliers, which he said he would do. If he does not sign, there is no trade.
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@JayHawkFanToo now the bulls are back in for love.
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He is being dealt away for 1-yrs service of Love (since he becomes a free agent next year).
@drgnslayr I would say this isn’t entirely true. Any team trading for Love is only doing so with certain assurances that he will sign an extension. Because you’re right, the asking price is outrageous for a one-year rental.
I’m not a cap expert so I’m not sure exactly how it works, but the reason it makes sense to trade for him as opposed to just saying with a wink & a nod “hey, you really want to play with LeBron? We’ll sign you when you become a free agent” is because the team that has him will be able to sign him for more money or for less of a cap hit than someone acquiring him in free agency. At least, that is my understanding, but again I’m not 100% sure how it works.
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@Crimsonorblue22 That’s got to be bogus. A ploy by the Bulls to drive the price up on Love, thus making Cleveland give up more for him than they’d like. I mean…their offer is so meager - Taj Gibson & Jimmy Butler?
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“He is being dealt away for 1-yrs service of Love (since he becomes a free agent next year).”
I understand teams want him to sign a multi-year contract. They will want him to do that next year, too, if he waits to become a free agent.
If you look at it from Cleveland’s perspective, they can get Love on a multi-year contract. Why can’t they do that next year (without giving up Wiggins and other trade)? There are other teams after Love right now, too. It isn’t like they have an exclusive opportunity now.
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A free agent can get a max 5 year offer from his own team where other teams can only offer a 4 year deal.
It is amazing how much the Cavs are catering to LeBron. This is what ESPN wrote:
“Although James is said to be intrigued by Wiggins’ potential and to have tracked his progress during summer league, sources say he has backed the Cavs’ win-now pursuit of Love, with whom he played on the United States’ gold-medal-winning team at the 2012 London Olympics.”
As I said before, LeBron wants to win now because he does not plan to stay in Cleveland past 2 years. He is waiting for the new TV contract that will raise the cap big time and he will sign a monster contract with the highest bidder.
As far as the Bulls, Gibson and Butler? wouldn’t that offer drive the price down?
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@JayHawkFanToo Well as I’ve said before, Cleveland will make sure they can be the highest bidder in two years, or at least match. Otherwise, why go back to Cleveland at all? He could have gotten Miami to give him a max contract for two years if all he wanted to do was bail when the cap goes up. Going to Cleveland and walking out on them again would be a horrible PR move, especially when he can command a max contract from other teams. I 100% agree the reason he signed was so that he could get a larger contract in two years, but there’s no way I buy that he’s already planning on going elsewhere.
As for the Bulls involvement, it’s definitely a lesser offer. But why make that offer at all then? I think it’s just to try and induce more of a sense of urgency from Cleveland, perhaps making them sweeten the deal just to get it done. That’s really the only rationale I can think of, to try and create a frenzy and give Minnesota at least a bit more leverage, otherwise I don’t understand it.
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So far it seems Oubre and Conner F followed by Mason are getting the most love (no not Kevin love)(just kidding). After starting this thread for the most improved KU player I began to think (Look out)(LOL). I’m starting to think Hunter Mickelson has the best chance to be the most improved player, not saying he will. I still think Brannen Greene will be the most improved player. Yet Hunter really has no expectations. So if he comes out and scores 10 to 15 points a game, rebounds 8 to 10 and blocks 3 or 4 shots a game who could really do better than that? Yet again the kid might not even be the first option of the bench.
I have to admit I was intrigued with all the love for Oubre (and not the Kevin love type as Oubre can actually play defense) So after doing some more research on the kid. I can see why so many of you think he could make that impact as a freshman.
I’m sorry KU nation if I’m a little overbearing on this whole Wiggins and Love thing. Well you know how I feel about it. Just give me 30 days after Wiggins signs his contract and I’ll be fine. Hell I’m planning on heading up to watch our boy Wiggins play in Minnesota. Hey you know the code once a Jayhawk always a Jayhawk. Nothing made me prouder being a KU fan when the great Wilt found out this truth later on in life. So sad he spent most of his life thinking we didn’t love or respect him.
God I love being a Jayhawk fan.
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@DoubleDD wow thanks for sharing the love(jk) for Wilt! Awesome!
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I am hoping it is Landon Lucas.
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I know this is a CBB thread but there have been other Wiggins vs. Love posts, so here goes:
Wiggins should just not sign his contract until he absolutely has to.
NBA rules mandate trades with similar total contract values. Unsigned, Wiggins’ contract value in a trade is 0$. The numbers don’t add up unless Wiggins is signed; then the trade can’t happen for 30 days.
If I’m Wiggins, I ask for a no trade clause until January 1st, 2015. Give me a chance. Otherwise, I’ll just sign as late as possible so I at least have 30 days to show what I can do.
Teams want dogs that are alpha on the court and tails between their legs when dealing with management. Go alpha, Andrew!
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Oh mannnnnnn…
How many days until Late Night?
Summer has been fun… but I’m starting to Jones!
Recruiting heating up:
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I am not sure Wiggins contract would be $0, since his salary is per-determined by the draft order; teams can negotiate based on this number and can offer between 80% and 120% of the rookie scale, with most lottery picks getting the higher offer (remember Xavier Henry, protracted negotiations?).
According to the CBA, unsigned first round picks are included in team salary immediately upon their selection in the draft.
Now, if he chooses not to sign and play elsewhere, Cleveland retains the rights until one year after he completes his obligation with the other (non-NBA) team.
The CBA is extremely complicated and I have learned a lot in the last couple of week…although some of it might not be correct.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Now that offer might trump Cleveland’s. Yesterday espn reported the offer was simply Gibson & Jimmy Butler. But swapping McDermott & Mirotic into the deal for Butler is intriguing. Minnesota is playing this perfectly. If I’m them I wait and see what the next one-upping might net them. Reminds me of an article I saw on the onion joking that the Cavs would deal Wiggins and LeBron James to get Love.
Thanks for the link!
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@JayHawkFanToo I’m basing on stuff I read, so I might be misinformed. What I read was that in trades total salary on both sides must be similar, and that unsigned players’ estimated salaries do not count in the total. This is a specific context, so could be compatible with your statements on the CBA.
This is why the Cavs need to sign Wiggins before they trade him: so they can count his salary in the trade. This is also why Wiggins can gum up the works if he refuses to sign right away, especially since the trade can’t become effective until 30 days after he signs.
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The KU hoops landscape is so cluttered with potential surprises this season that, at this juncture, I find it too bewildering to allow for a “most improved” selection. We KNOW that current returning players will have gained much from previous game minutes and practice experiences with nationally top-ranked competitors. By league play, Bill Self’s utilization of his roster will say much to this matter: who will earn opportunity to enter games for enough minutes to develop and showcase talent and growth. If Greene has developed the skill to slide laterally and defend, I have thought all along that he will fight for minutes, even against the likes of much heralded newcomer Oubre or reconstructed Wayne Selden, whose leg could use a regular 15 minute dose of bench rest until he is back to a stable 100%. To me, Brannen Greene has shown glimpses of the high energy player who can inject new life and zest into a contest. Depending on several factors (Selden health, Oubre quick adjustment and blend, Ellis perhaps gleaning minutes at SF), Greene might yet be a year away. But by end of Year 3, Brannen is likely to ignite Jayhawk Winning Basketball!
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The reason that Cleveland needs to sign Wiggins is because without a contract they cannot trade him, they can only trade the rights to him (like it is customarily done on draft day), i.e. the new team will have to negotiate with Wiggins without assurances that he will sign. I don’t believe any team would take a chance like that. There is only so long a rookie can hold and still sign at the full pre-set salary; after a certain time (January???), the contract is pro-rated.
I don’t believe you can trade unsigned players since you really have no ownership interest. This is why the player is signed before the trade, or if the players is still under contract (the current contract has not yet expired), the player; usually agrees in writing that he will sign an extension with the new team. This is what Love will do since he is still under contract for the upcoming season. If Love completes the upcoming season with Wolves, when the contract expires they can no longer trade him and he is free to go wherever he wants with no compensation to the Wolves. This is what the Wolves must trade him while he is under contract. Makes sense?
As I indicated before, and according to the CBA, unsigned lottery picks are included in the team salary cap upon their selection in the draft,
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That is a pretty decent offer. Mirotic is still young (23) but has 6 years of Euro-ball and has lots of potential to be the next Kevin Love. McDermott has also lots of potential but he is considered a tweener in the NBA, too small to play the 4 and too slow to play the 3; he could be the next Wally Szczerbiak/JJ Redick or he could be the next Adam Morrison. He is a good fit to Thibodeau’s system and I believe he will have a good NBA career.
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@JayHawkFanToo Yeah adding Mirotic was the key. And I think a lot of it depends on how you view Gibson. Just a defensive specialist, or someone you can count on for a modicum of offensive production?
The other person I’ve heard McDermott compared to is a better version of Kyle Korver. So take that for whatever it’s worth.
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I’ll be the only one to go out on a limb and pick Cliff Alexander. I believe his ability to protect the rim and block shots (not to mention his short range shooting) will make him a stat leader way beyond what he did in high school. His shot blocking will be what is needed to fill that void that has been lacking since Jeff and TRob left. I like his dominance around the rim and think he’s had plenty of experience playing against the best players in all his post-season games so as not to feel intimated going up against seasoned players in the league. Can’t wait to see him vs. Ridley! (All this is said with the proviso that his ankle sprain doesn’t turn into an ongoing issue.)
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@JayHawkFanToo Hmm … I think you can trade a guy not under contract. You can trade the rights to him. The reason players are signed before they are traded with veterans is because they can sign a better deal with their original team. And in a sign and trade, the trading team gets some compensation. Perhaps a big salary vet in the last year of a deal to then give them some salary cap relief when he leaves.
This all falls under the description of “I think”. Not 100% sure.
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Most improved PG play: Mason + Frankamp (+Graham?? is a total unknown).
Improved play at the 4: Ellis (MickeyD) being hotly pursued by not-top-100 Traylor, tells you how heated that battle is. And we know even less about Mickelson vs. Lucas.
Improved wing play: Selden becomes a leader, Greene makes a stepwise improvement, but his swagger will help him overachieve by having some big games. Svee is an unknown at this point…
(See my subtle point that the whole team improves, and the newcomers add the intangible swag factor that has been missing from SOME of our players recently)…In short: It should be a good chemistry mix.
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@RockChalkinTexas I like Cliff Alexander too. You know when looking at the KU roster in what they having coming back and coming in. It’s really hard to just focus in on one player and say yep he’s the one. I can see Cliff the thunder being the most improved player, yet I’m sticking with Greene. There is just something about this kid I can’t shake. I can tell you one thing I wouldn’t want to be standing between Cliff and the rim.
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The most improved award goes to our 3 point guards, which led us to the 2015 national championship. In an eerie, yet exhilarating experience, Francamp, Frank, and Graham morphed into Mario, Sherron, and RussRob, which was a huge part of national title run. And who could forget the mad bomber SVEE hitting those back to back threes, which made coach Squid and his Kensucky Mildcats fold like a cheap tent. And it goes without saying that Cliff’s dunk in Cauley-Stein’s face brought the house down
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Hmm … I think you can trade a guy not under contract. You can trade the rights to him.
I believe that is what I said:
"The reason that Cleveland needs to sign Wiggins is because without a contract they cannot trade him, they can only trade the rights to him."
The rights apply only before a drafted player sign a contract, and in some cases, teams might also retain the rights if a player retires before the expiration of the contract and until the contract would have expired.
Once a player has signed a contract and the contract has expired, the club has no ownership rights and has no say in where he goes or how much he makes. This is why Minnesota is desperately trying to trade Love while he is under contract, because once the contract expires, he is a free agent and can sign with whichever team he wants and the Wolves get diddly-squat. Look at LeBron, his contract expired, he did not pick up the option and joined the Cavaliers and Miami got bupkis.
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Gibson, while not really a star, is a decent players; don’t forget that he finished second in Sixth Man of the Year voting last season and was invited to the USA Select Team that practices with the USA team in 2012 and 2013, so obviously many think he is pretty good.
While he is a stud defensive player, his offensive game has been improving. Here is a link to a story that discusses his potential:
Link to story on Taj Gibson potential…
It seems like many are projecting him to start, although with Gasol in the house, that might not happen.
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I’m high on both Oubre and Alexander, to the point that I feel like right now they will be two of KU’s best four players - Oubre second behind Selden, who I am super high on, and Alexander fourth behind a moderately improved Perry Ellis.
However, I think Selden’s production can go up 50% this season, which, for a guy that was a decent player, would be a huge jump in productivity. I think Oubre and Alexander will both be double figure scorers with some production in other areas (rebounds and blocks for Alexander, rebounds and threes for Oubre). I think other guys will show improvement. I like Traylor quite a bit, but my gut feeling on him is that he won’t get as much PT behind Alexander, Ellis and Mickelson, and the possibility that KU plays small at least sometimes this year, so he may not see his production really rocket up. I’m unsure on Frankamp because the PT forecast is even more cloudy for him. He may play a lot, he may barely play. Tough to call right now.
As for Wiggins-Love-Bull-Cavs-Wolves situation, it’s a very tough call. For the Cavs, it’s all about maximizing the next 3-4 years (the Lebron window). For Minnesota, it’s all about getting the most out of Kevin Love. For the Bulls, it’s all about seizing control of the vulnerable Eastern Conference.
I’ve talked about Cleveland quite a bit, but I think it comes down to whether Wiggins will be a more productive player than Kevin Love in any of the next three seasons. If that answer is no (and it appears that Cleveland believes it is), then I think you have to do the deal. The thing is, saying that 20, 21 and 22 year old Andrew Wiggins won’t be as productive as in his prime Kevin Love (probably a top 10 or top 15 player in the NBA for that stretch) isn’t really disrespect to Wiggins. It’s just that it’s unlikely Wiggins is even a top 25 player during the next three seasons. Maybe he pulls a Kawhi Leonard and shows that type of growth, but can you wait until year three of the Lebron window (when James will be going on 32) for him to make that leap? Can you compete for a title in either of the next two years if he gives you Kawhi Leonard type production (again, nothing to sneeze at if he does that)?
For Minnesota, knowing Love isn’t re-signing, you have to do a deal now. You can’t risk not getting a deal done and then panic trading him in January without getting an impact player back. That is how GM jobs are lost. Minnesota will almost certainly do something, and it’s likely that they will do something with a team in the Eastern conference (again, because the East is vulnerable and Kevin Love joining a team in the East makes that team at least a playoff team, maybe even a title contender).
For the Bulls, if they can legitimately show a lineup of Rose-Butler-Dunleavy-Love-Noah with Pau Gasol off the bench 25 minutes a night, that’s a legit lineup. They can spread the floor, they have different guys that can shoulder the load offensively (especially if Rose returns to 90% of his former self), they can still defend inside with Noah, etc. That’s a really good team. With Indiana losing Stephenson, they probably will be even worse offensively than they were last year. Miami has no Lebron. Cleveland is probably a player away unless one of the young guys really progresses. New York is a mess. Jersey is old. Washington is probably a breakout season from someone besides Wall away. Atlanta is never quite good enough. If Chicago does that deal, it’s not hard to see how they would be the #1 team in the East.
It’s all about competitive windows. Cleveland’s window is open for the next 3-5 years depending on Lebron. Minnesota’s window will depend on what they can get back for Love. Chicago’s window depends on a healthy Derrick Rose, but could easily be the next 3-5 years as well if they land Love. If you have a window you have to take it, because if you miss it, it may just be gone.
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Great topic. Like others, I believe we will have several guys that will improve significantly. Mason, CF, Greene. I’ll go with Selden as the most improved. It appears he was injured more than we thought last year. Now that it appears that he is healthy, I think he and Perry will be our go to guys.
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@JayHawkFanToo Sorry, replied on my phone. Didn’t read as closely as I should have.
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Miscellaneous…
Wigs’ trade appears entirely Petro-SHOECO driven. GM = Nike. Lebron = Nike. Consonants = Nike. Irving = Nike. Nike = Nike. Wigs = adidas.
BGreene = most improved player!
Frank and Claire Underwood just seduced their Secret Service man in HOUSE OF CARDS!!! Help me, help me, help me, I think I’m going insane!!!
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@justanotherfan I hope you are wrong on Traylor’s PT. Hunter is a complete unknown to me, but I think we will see some Cliff and Mari together, the new bruise bros. Self has a lot of options, I could see some pressing teams w/Greene at 4- like last year, and Mari at the 5. Maybe crazy? Mason or whomever at lead, Selden and Oubre? It’s nice to hear so many different names! Hopefully we are all right and we can keep them all happy w/PT. My concern is Cliff in foul trouble. Let’s keep this rolling. I’m going to see BenMac sat, can’t wait!
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A surprise must also be a surprise to you. Connor’s last three game’s let Self realize that Tharp did not take care of the ball like CF did and CF finally got the order to create his own shot and start shooting it. IMO CF is a much better shooter off a Pick and use’s his dribble off of a screen to get open. Self’s career as a guard will let us know quickly in the early games who will be getting the minutes, but in the camp game video Conner was finding his own shot and hitting 3’s like he did against Stanford almost single-handedly taking over a game and have an incredible move to get wide open in a shot to win, it had to be taken quickly and you showed everyone on the team that although it didn’t go in (very long and quick to beat buzzer) you had the “I want the ball” mentality. I’ll take that in anyone. That’s when I knew Conner will play a lot of minutes this year.
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@wrwlumpy You are right about CF IMO Self put our teams season in his hands because he didn’t have a better option. He lead our U18 team to a gold as the starting pg and was the leading scorer on a team that featured this years top pg Tyus Jones and big man Jahlil Okafor. He also beat Ellis’s Wichita scoring record. He won the 3 pt competition at the McDonald’s all American game. I think that HCBS likes Masons toughness and his ability to get to the rim and his ability to get to the charity stripe. Both guards will share pg responsibilities until graduation because no one is going to willingly rs. They both have plenty to offer depending who is on the floor, spacing, etc. Not really a bad problem to have if you ask me? An outside threat and a slasher depending on who you have at the 2-3?
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“…I think we will see some Cliff and Mari together, the new bruise bros.”
I’m totally on board with that!
Now throw in Frank and Wayne and we are looking like a wrecking crew!
I’m just not sure who we play at the 3 to add to this “bang gang?”
Kelly is sleek, but he seems like the kind of guy who can morph his game into different styles. From what I’ve seen of his game so far, he is one hustling flat-out baller. He may be a slight step down athletically from Andrew, but this kid more than makes up for it with his hustle. I’m betting he can do some bangin’.
I’d like to see Self go a step further with the Bruise Brothers theme to use it on a complete 5-player theme. He should take that group aside in practice and push a bit more physical game… teaching them not to foul the ball but to physically manhandle for rebounding and floor position. That is where the game is won anyways. Fighting through screens, positioning for rebounds, owning turf in the paint. You just don’t see college basketball emphasize this enough. It is really ‘man ball’ and it is something that Self could sell to these guys and once the momentum takes off, even our less-physical players would embrace it and make huge strides through that theme.
For example, I could see Conner and Perry (the two biggest scorers in Wichita history) embracing that mentality and totally lifting their games to new heights!
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If you look at our schedule and think “can Cliff go one on one with their 5”? If that answer is yes you throw Frankcamp, Selden, Ellis, and Greene out on the 3 pt line and run some time off the clock. Pass to Selden who drives in off a hi ball screen (into an empty lane) and either takes it to the basket or dishes to Cliff when the help side D comes in for an easy dunk. When the D starts collapsing on this play then you dish to one of our sharp shooters and just enjoy the show!
Just one look HCBS can throw at an opposing team. This wouldn’t work well on the defensive end though. If you need the D you would have to go with Mason, Selden, Oubre, Traylor, and Cliff.
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Sviatoslav Mykhailiuk scored 19 pts for an 82-61 win over Portugal on his U18 national team today.
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@jaybate
House of cards is excellent but that scene was unsettling!
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@Statmachine SVEE…SVEE…
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You’re a great stat machine!
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SVEE played a bit over 19min and was 6/13 today and finished with 16 pts 3 reb and 1 asst killing Scotland 81 to 34.
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Thanks for the stats. Where are the articles on these games?
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@RockChalkinTexas http://u18men.fibaeurope.com/enDivB/default.asp
This year he is averaging 30.43 points per 40 minutes. If you look at everything per 40 minutes he would have 6 boards 4 assists and 4 steals to go along with his 30pts. Not a bad line if you ask me?
Last year on his U16 team he averaged 36 minutes and his stat line was pretty good. 25.2pts, 8reb, 3.4ast, 3.3st, and .8bs over 36.8 minutes. His production has been about the same for a couple years. I cant wait to see this guy in crimson and blue!
