Rock Chalk Diss-appointment!
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@ralster great post! I do think Perry is not being to cool, I think it’s just his demeanor, not really cool.
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Finally, just me personally, I’d be guilty of a reverse-cop out to blame Self (attributing it to him under the catch-all “buck stops there/he’s the coach” phrase) for specific things–I consider that too simplistic.
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I agree with you and I think you are spot on on your assessment.
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I purposely did not mention Giddens because he also was caught in a bad situation. Night clubs are where college kids go, particularly in the off-season and by all accounts, he did not start the fight or do the stabbing. You get a much different perspective when you read his side of the story in the book Beyond the Phog. Also, he did very well at his next stop and was drafted in the first round by the Celtics and made it to the NBA, so how can one really be disappointed…
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In terms of disappointing losses?
I really am not annoyed, or disappointed by the early outs by mid majors, because I assume Self is gambling on sending them out flat for those and he is going to lose some of those gambles.
The losses that really disappointed me were:
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to VCU, because that team had a clear path to the ring at that point, because of upsets in other regions;
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to Michigan, because that team had a clear path to a ring.
Disappointment to me is failure to seize opportunity. Those were the two best ring opportunities KU has blown under Self. They hurt. They will always hurt.
And disappoint.
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@JayHawkFanToo Man, I thought that passage in Beyond the Phog (in Gidden’s own words) was very chilling. As J.R. told it, Self wouldnt allow any of his teammates to go see him, or have any contact. And if I recall correctly, there was no support given by KU for J.R. during his healing & recovery process. Most interestingly, throughout the book, which is exclusively first-person player quotes on various topics and about each other…occasionally Self is asked about such things, and the author put the responses or additional info in italics. The interviews took place over the summer before the book’s release in 2011? Self directly responds (in 2011) to J.R.'s allegations with the statement “that is an outright lie.” That is simply wow-type stuff. And not necessarily flattering to the KU program–the book spans 10 years, including 3-4 Roy years/players…I recall reading the book, thinking this ‘definitely is not a homer book’. Riveting reading, as you are reading player’s own recorded words. If anything, it simply affirms that Bill Self is an (effective) old-ball, disciplinarian type of coach. And Roy’s players make it clear he was a totalitarian as well. Very demanding, was Roy, about his system requirements. And finally, I wish every Eric Chenoweth hater could read what Eric said about KU (still loves ku) and how Roy pulled him in the office after his promising soph year and bluntly told him the offense would be “going a different direction” (Pierce), but fans never understood why Eric’s stats went down his upperclassman seasons. He feels it cost him NBA legitimacy. But he still flies a KU flag in front of his Calif. home to this day.
The only thing I can think about the JRGiddens scenario is 3 possibilities:
Here’s my gut thoughts on the incident: He was an innocent, but high profile “target” (as any player is in a bar scene)…who got provoked into “reacting”, and made the mistake of going outside, where events took a scary turn.
Scenario 1: JR tells Self what happens, maybe there is a scared-delay, Self thinks JR is guilty, and doesnt believe him, and everything thereafter is a result of Self not believing JR. I thought back then, and still do now, that Self new KU coach…chose to ‘make an example’ out of JR to simply cement his authority over the team (some Roy players remained), and this JR episode unwittingly provided the opportunity for Self to flex.
Scenario 2: Maybe Self believes JR, but still for publicity’s sake, felt forced to make an example of JR…again, just to cement ‘what kind of program’ he was running at KU. JR was the ‘fall guy’ and Self stuck to his guns on it…and knew that he would have to til the end of time.
Scenario 3: Self came in thinking Giddens was a wild card &never liked him (at best) or a thug at worst…Then JR wouldnt play D, wouldnt dribble-drive as Self repeatedly asked him to…and there was always that “Walmart shoplifting incident” from Oklahoma when Giddens was still in highschool…maybe that never sat well with Self. Maybe thats the kind of character thing that is a major turnoff for Self, and 1 mistake and he’d be done, meaning JR was on a short leash in Self’s head from the word ‘go’.
So, what Im trying to say is, there was the personal private response from Self towards JRGiddens, then there was the public response (no doubt engineered for all the correct effects)…and neither is very flattering. JR hasnt changed his story, so I doubt Self included him in on the public harsh response. JR sounds like a forlorn lost puppy, and if he was telling the truth, maybe he has every right to feel that way. Most heart-wrenching is to hear 2011 JRGiddens say how much he loved KU, and still does. I just dont know what to think, other than I wish somehow JR never went to that stupid bar…
I thought for a while that maybe fellow Oklahoman Self would cut MickeyD Oklahoma kid JR some slack, but actually, maybe it caused the opposite effect (wouldnt want to show favortism?).
Very sad chapter. But this is Bill Self’s program to run. After CJGile and JR…I thought Mario Little was toast after his little incident, but Self was willing to work with Mario…for which I’m grateful. Maybe Mario played it differently, going immediately to Self, maybe witnesses told a different story…and actually the situation (unfaithful girlfriend) was a totally different circumstance than JR’s altercation? Or maybe Self felt guilty after JR’s scenario and chose to be a tad bit more open minded with Mario’s situation? Who knows!?
Enquiring minds want answers to this gossip!
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@drgnslayr I have to say I’m a bit hardcore. I love conference championships, but if KU doesn’t make it to at least the final four I’m shaking my head. However I’m thinking it was the 2011 team that pisses me off the most. They lost to VCU if my memory serves me. I’m stilling shaking my head.
That team was badass. They could blow you out even before the first tv timeout. I’m still shaking my head. That team had champions writing all over it.
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@DoubleDD Agree about VCU. We were listening to it on the radio on the way back from KC…and I simply couldnt believe what I was hearing. I was mad at everybody not named Marcus or Tyshawn in that game. Also was mad at Self for not getting 100% out of our guys, who had been stopping people all season long…except for the defeat by the Tennessee walk-ons (dont know if that was some sort of omen or not?). Definitely gave Duke an easy-path NC.
My consolation after UNI and VCU is pretty straightforward: Where is Ben Jacobsen now? Where is Shaka now? Why did they fall off? Hmm?
VCU and UNI were examples of KU teams performing badly in multiple areas in the same game enough to enable almost any team to be able to beat us. See the game film. We beat ourselves. Play better, and for 40min next time…not 36min like vs. Michigan…
Same old lessons…always a new set of kids that have to learn…
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I got the same impression you did about Gidden after reading Beyond the Phog. In fact, I made me look at both,Coach Williams and Self, from a different perspective and made me realize that the coaches (and players) we know from watching them at games and press conferences can be quite different away from the limelight.
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@drgnslayr Do you remember the OAK Lodge from the sixties? Our band played there many times. Lots of fun & fisticuffs with wine, women & song.
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@globaljaybird
I really can’t recall it. Can you clue me in? Where was it, exactly?
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@ralster Not to be that guy, but… The year KU lost to VCU, UConn went on to win the NC. Sickening. That season, KU didn’t play Tennessee…
And while, yes, UNI is a nothing program (which makes that loss even harder to take!), VCU made a name for itself on that win and haven’t gone away. To quote Elijah Johnson…
"I won’t discredit the man (Shaka Smart). He had a good run. I think it’s so amazing that people can make their name off of us, though. Because of our slip up, his name is still relevant.” He went on to say, ‘what has he done since?’ Which in the grand expectations of KU fans, isn’t much for us…but for VCU, it’s pretty damn good.
Unfortunately, that pretty much sums up VCU (as far as we’re concerned). And to your last point, I’ll quote Elijah again…
“My sophomore year (against VCU) I feel we were focused. I don’t feel we were serious. I feel we knew what the goal was and I thought that we played toward the goal and I thought that it was team basketball. But at some point I feel that we broke down. And when we broke down there was really no recovering from it.”
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I haven’t read all the above posts yet, but surely Eric Chenowith’s name came up at least once?
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And, I would add, that Chenowith’s 98-99 and 99-00 teams were probably the least interesting teams in the past 25 years.
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@DanR you need to read ralster’s post regarding Chenowith.
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@Crimsonorblue22 I’m really not a Chenowith hater (I’m a dissapoint-er). Pierce was gone, playing for the Celtics, during Chenowith’s decent Sophomore season, so that “offense is going in a different direction because of Pierce” excuse is total revisionism. Roy really didn’t expect much from his centers (exhibit A: Ostertag): block shots, rebound, hit the putbacks and make a shot from the free throw line once in a while. And Chenowith could actually jump at least a foot higher than O’s 3" vertical. There was so much potential, and so little development. in hindsight, maybe it was Roy’s coaching staff’s blame. In comparison, Withey seemed destined to follow that mold and he reached another level.
I just remember thinking back in the summer of 1999, well, with a solid junior center in Chenowith, maybe he’d be able to help carry those three new guys (Gooden, Collison and Hinrich) in 1999-2000. Nope. California dreamin’.
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@DanR I wasn’t arguing, just thought you might want to read ralster’s take.
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@drgnslayr Oak Lodge was a “club” about 10-12 miles South of Lawrence on 59 Hiway. Technically the address is Baldwin, KS. It also has been a restaurant among other things trough the years. Haven’t driven by it in some time so don’t know if the building is even still standing.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Sorry – that came across a lot harsher than I intended. The idea that Roy reigned him in was news to me. It would be interesting to hear more from Chenowith’s perspective about his last couple of years at KU. @Ralster: Source?
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@DanR no problem, ralster read it from “beyond the phog”
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Read Beyond the Phog. Chenowith was interviewed and his side of the story is there.
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The Michigan and VCU losses sting. Hell, they all sting. I don’t ever think we’re going to lose. Then we do, and it sucks.
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@DanR Dan, I may have mistaken about who exactly Roy would be focusing on offensively, because to me the roster of a lackluster team has faded into history (Pierce gone by then)…but the quote is directly from Eric Chenoweth saying that Roy actually told him the “offense would be going in another direction”. He didnt say who, so it leaves us to speculate on who got more touches by design…?. That is a direct quote if you can find that passage. Its a 400+ page book of nothing but the players own words. Now of course Eric Chenoweth may have ‘revisionist memory’, but nobody but he+Roy know the accuracy of Eric’s words. But that definitely is his quote.
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How about the player that led to the most disappointment?
Easy — Brady Morningstar.
I still, without hesitation, believe that if Brady Morningstar had simply never played at Kansas, we at least visit the final four once during three seasons between 2008 and 2012, where he played, and we didn’t. The completely speculative opinion is that we win the 2011 national title if future NBAer Morningstar had chosen to play elsewhere.
Like a governor on an old school bus …
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Loved your response to me.
I like how this team is talking about toughness… and realizing they didn’t have it last year.
I like how Wayne is talking about something to prove… it smells of a chip forming. Something we never get to enjoy as Jayhawks.
This group of guys seems like they could be special. There are several guys on this team that have plenty of individual toughness. If they can come together as a group and form toughness synergy, watch out!
They’ve got to want to win it all… they’ve got to turn it from a want into a need.
Take no prisoners.
Personally… if I could have a dream come true it would be that one of these guys found a bunch of old VHS tapes marked “1989 NBA Finals.”
I’m not saying we play “thug ball.” But I am saying we develop the toughness that Detroit Piston team had. They were never supposed to win it all… they were never supposed to come between the power teams of that time period… LA and Boston. No one liked them except Detroit fans. But the pushed and they fought and they didn’t give up. Isiah Thomas had proven his toughness the year before… when he went for 25 in a quarter with an ankle that had exploded. It was one of those few moments in the NBA where everyone should respect, even non-basketball fans.
I wish we still had Black… he would fit perfect with this crew.
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@HighEliteMajor he truly is the only jhawk I can’t stand! Mostly because of off court behavior and how he carries himself. I wonder what he will be doing in a few years?
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@drgnslayr – “I wish we still had Black… he would fit perfect with this crew.”
I think Black is perfect with any crew. Wish we would have had him as a freshman.
And @ralster, great stuff above.
@Crimsonorblue22 - I don’t know what he will be doing in a few years, but I know what he won’t be doing – playing in the NBA. Just a continued (playful) jab at those that professed that he would get to the league because of his famous (or infamous) intangibles. I do love crisp ball rotation and post entry passes – of course I do – who doesn’t? But I also like what I saw from EJ and Releford in the 2012 title game run. And somehow, without Brady, we were able to rotate the ball and get some entry passes. I’ll stop now.
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@HighEliteMajor agree on Black, wish we had him as a grad asst on bench, but I hope he finds a place to play that deserves him!! How many on here bitched about him last year??? We are so quick to judge!
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@Crimsonorblue22 To be fair, Black did play terribly for a good chunk of the year. How many times did we hear something along the lines of “Tarik Black has as many fouls in this game as he does minutes.” Take your choice. There were a lot to choose from.
I agree with @HighEliteMajor , if we had Black from the start, he could’ve worked with Danny, gotten better infused with the system, etc. The guy had heart. He was a nice guy, sure (as @ralster noted above), but what I saw from him in the game against Stanford especially was enough to wish we had him for longer than we did. It’s amazing what programs can (or cannot) do with certain players.
And @HighEliteMajor …I could not possibly agree with you more about Brady. I remember when I first moved to Lawrence and people trying to convince me that he was such an asset. Saying things like “he’s the best passer on the team.” I couldn’t believe what I was hearing…
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@MoonwalkMafia I know, just wished we would have given him time to learn our system, and mainly adjust to the new foul system. I hated the mean remarks, he could have gone anywhere.
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@HighEliteMajor JayhawkinNebraska would be busting at the buttons over this one…LOL. He got hammered as much as any troll I remember from the old days at kusports. Forgive me but I just have to chuckle because he was Brady basher # 1 & guys just ate him alive for it, & the more they hammered the more he complained. Kinda like old JRoss & jaybate going back & forth. That was funny schtick virtually day in & day out.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Brady is a wanker. That perimeter lineup with him and Tyrell was as quick as Jethro Bodine’s mind.
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@KUSTEVE WHOA Brother! Remember, Jethro graduated at the top of his class at Oxford.
His sixth grade class at Oxford, Mississippi. And he was " at the top " because he was the tallest student in his class.
Just sayin…
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@KUSTEVE jethro, can’t include Brady in the same sentence w/Tyrell. Tyrell is a fine upstanding young man!
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Just answered a couple questions on the old site to read article on Brady Morningstar!!!
Former Kansas University basketball guard Brady Morningstar had what he called “a great experience” playing in Finland’s top professional league this past season.
“It was good competition, nice people, nice culture,” said the 6-foot-3, 28-year-old Morningstar.
He averaged 14.1 points off 57 percent shooting (49 of 127 threes for 38.6 percent), with 4.1 assists and 3.9 rebounds for Tapiolan Honka in Helsinki.
He would be a perfect fit for the Spurs!!!
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@nuleafjhawk I though Jed said he learned to sipher (add) at Oxford, as in where the Ox ford the stream.
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@VailHawk I’m curious as to what capacity he would fit with the Spurs?
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@HighEliteMajor me too!!
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He would be the glue-guy, of course …
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@HighEliteMajor: Agree on Brady. While I understood that in those moments in time Self started him because he defended better, fed the post better (than the talent that rode pine)…but if he simply wasnt at KU, that talent might have developed faster. And I mean Releford and EJ. Guys we all thought had higher ultimate ceilings, if they developed properly…. If given the non-fleeting chance of necessity. Kind of like Teahan on the 2012RunnerUp team: He really only got his mpg because there was no one else. Selby should have been splitPG with Tyshawn, and splitSG with EJ that year. And Teahan could have backed Releford.
My point is what if EJ was given first-off bench mpg even in his frosh season? He could have been one confident dude by the time his Sr. season came…
(100% speculation).
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Just having fun! I’m Switzerland when it comes to Brady…but I think the Spurs make everyone look good.
They are a pleasure to watch. They embarrassed the Heat and pretty much toyed w them on offense.
I used to live in Florida and have been to a couple Heat games…so I was pulling for them especially bc of Mario…but they looked HORRIBLE! Ball stuck, no movement, no passing…poor D after six or seven passes…Spurs pass up good shot, then pass for better one then that guy often passes once more for dunk.
Brady has no business playing in the nba but I’m convinced the Spurs would make him look like he belongs.
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@VailHawk I suspected sarcasm font … I was wrong, there, too. I will note your neutrality on Brady. That’s safe.
