Who is Sviatoslav Mykhailiuk?
-
“but this isn’t about racism” I was in no way implying racism in anyone. I have called people out for it in years past over on KUSports, but I was really just trying to make light of the current debate we’re having.
As for the athletic/non-athletic question, I have cringed over the years as I watch my 2nd love, UW. They have had more than the usual number of white players over the years, football included. And for years I hear people describe a top 20 UW team in either sport as being un-athletic, or not as athletic. And I think it is just preposterous. Their guard who was their only Senior this year Ben Brust, was white, 6’1" and averaged 5 rebounds a game over his last two seasons. How is that not athletic? How is it not athletic for Frank Kaminksy to dominate the tournament’s first four rounds and for a bunch of non athletes to come within a missed shot of playing for the title?
These kids are incredibly athletic that are playing at this level. They may not run quite as fast but they still have blinding speed. They are strong, quick, have extraordinary hand-eye coordination, and would run circles around all of us.
I always found it interesting when I was at KU and would go to Robinson (?) gymnasium for pickup basketball. During the offseason for football there’d always be a lot of football players in there. During my years at KU the football team was the laughingstock of the nation (along with KState). The football players playing ball in there were incredibly athletic, white, black, whatever. They’d go shirts and skins and I’d just gawk at these guys, sounds weird I know. They’d dunk, run, fly through the sky, do amazing things on the court. Yet these incredible athletes were not capable of winning more than one or two games a year on the football field.
My point is they’re all athletic and to inject race into the discussion is missing the point of what makes a great team a great team.
-
I would like to remind everyone that correlation does not equal causation. The question about ethnicity and athleticism can not be answered without an experiment (ideally randomized control trails – although a properly constructed natural experiment or instrument variable might also do the trick). Good luck with that. In sum, we can’t statically support a causal claim.
With regards to the recruit in question, as a native Kansasan (and a big Jayhawk basketball fan) – sure signing him up. But as a double alum of UVA I would be very happy if Coach Bennett landed him instead.
-
This post is deleted!
-
This post is deleted!
-
This post is deleted!
-
I guess the kid is going to pay KU a visit. I’m not sure what to think of it. I do know this we have got to get this kid a nickname. I hate referring Sviatoslav as him and he.
[http://cjonline.com/sports/2014-05-15/reports-ukrainian-guard-sviatoslav-mykhailiuk-visit-ku](link url)
-
@HighEliteMajor Hogwash on top of hogwash. You’re suffering from severe confirmation bias, my friend. But to answer your points directly:
“Black people dominate basketball because black people try harder to do so compared to everyone else.”
I cannot fathom a more uninformed and patently ridiculous comment. Black people try harder. Right.
So, conversely, are you saying that blacks’ lack of effort leads them to their much higher levels (per capita) of unemployment, poverty, and violent crime?
Unemployment and violent crime are biproducts of poverty. Being born poor makes you more likely to be poor in the future for a variety of reasons (including but not limited to access to resources and literal changes in brain development that occur from developing in a stress-heavy environment). What I’ve said about black people trying harder to dominate basketball is true. An elite black athlete is more likely to invest his time in playing football or basketball rather than anything else compared to athletes of other races. Elite white athletes participate more in other sports. Your assumptions about whites trying to dominate basketball by volume are simply flawed and your reasoning for this is completely shallow.
You ask: “Is a golfer or pro bull rider less of an athlete than a power forward or middle linebacker?”
Short Answer: Yes. Obviously. And by a long shot. It takes much less pure athleticism to do the former than the latter – see Craig Stadler, for example. Thus my point about blacks being better basketball players. And this is my sole point.The game of basketball, in a large part, is based on a certain type of explosive athleticism. It is exactly why blacks dominate those positions in football which require that – running back, wide receiver, corner, LB, safety.
In basketball, shooting the ball is more of a skill. Rising above the basket with your elbow at the rim has more to do with explosive athleticism. A black player that can do the latter, can learn the former. Conner Frankamp can never do the latter, nor could a black kid that possesses CF’s athleticism.
You yourself have said in the past that basketball is primarily a skills game and that athleticism is secondary to that skill (and cited Bo Jackson’s brief and unremarkable basketball career as proof of that). But even if you’re reversing course on that position, you lack a cogent definition of ‘pure athleticism’. Even if you boil athleticism down to things like running fast and jumping high, and consider elements like hand/foot-eye coordination, judging distances, and fine motor control skills (after all, aren’t talented violinists better at using their digits more quickly and precisely than the rest of us?), you fail to address why being black doesn’t give a pronounced advantage in a sport that values speed/explosivity/power/endurance, such as soccer (a sport played all over the world), if these are things that elite black athletes have truly cornered the market on. You’ve stated that if blacks played more hockey they’d dominate. So why not soccer?
You say, “Blacks play more basketball than whites per capita.” Per capita is irrelevant. Your argument is that blacks succeed in basketball because culturally they focus on achieving in basketball. But more whites focus on that than blacks (numbers, not per capita), and the number of blacks at the highest level far outweighs the number of whites.
Not just play more per capita, but invest more hours. In other words, an elite black athlete is more likely to have spent his time playing basketball as opposed to another sport or another endeavor altogether. Your perception that the abundance of white people means they’re automatically more engaged in a given activity is simply wrong. And leaves out the self-reinforcing mechanisms of specialization. As I stated, black populations are more concentrated in urban environments compared to white populations. An elite black athlete is more likely to be born in a basketball heavy environment where he’s going to encounter people like himself. Is it any surprise that the least talented of the Wiggins brothers is the oldest (a D2/NAIA player) and the most talented the youngest (a future NBA top 5 lotto pick)? Of course not. The youngest benefits from being able to compete against the eldest his whole life.
Some don’t like stereotypes – but the phrase “White men can’t jump” is there for a reason.
There is a reason that the phrase ‘white men can’t jump’ exists, but it’s existence and it’s verisimilitude are independent qualities. The reason for the phrase persists is because there are people like you who buy into its veracity without criticism. It’s as irrelevant a point as you can bring up.
Again, I think you make pointless arguments – citing Michael Phelps, and orchestras.
Learning to play the violin, my friend, is much different than being born with inherent athletic explosiveness.
Learning to play the violin requires every bit as much hand-eye coordination and physical dexterity as success in any sport. What separates the greatest violin player from the run of the mill is a combination of the effort they’ve put into playing and their ability to translate their physical advantages into better performance. So if what you’re suggesting is true, superior black athletes should also be better strings players because all of that fast twitch muscle tissue in their fingers should really let them shred the cello. However, it’s whites and Asians that dominate the world of orchestral music.
Just like men are born stronger than women. Some men are born stronger, faster, and more athletic than other men. It just so happens that based on centuries of evolution, some black men can achieve, generally, a higher level of explosive athleticism than white men. Exceptions for sure. But the rule, for sure.
And here you’ve revealed the depth of your ignorance. Males aren’t born stronger than females. Prior to puberty, there’s really no significant difference between the athletic abilities of boys and girls. Some are, some aren’t, but people don’t bother gender segregating most sports for young kids because it makes no difference. However, with the onset of puberty, the disparity in testosterone takes off in favor of males, and with it the accompanying increase in muscle mass, strength-to-weight-ratio, lower average body fat %, etc. There is a cause and effect. But athletic females still out perform less athletic males because testosterone isn’t magic, after all. But what you’ve suggested here isn’t that like saying testosterone makes men more athletic. What you’ve suggested is something akin to saying ‘the abiltiy to grow facial hair is what makes men more athletic’.
And remember, black folks are black because they lived in very warm climates. The pigmentation differences in our skin are a direct result of the climates and exposure to sun of our ancestors. Cloudy, cool = pale Irishmen? Is it that hard to figure out that the physical differences in people inherent to world regions where the races originated centuries upon centuries ago may be tied to the physical requirements necessary to survive in those varying regions of the world? And that those differences maintain in large part still today?
Genetics dictate race, not the other way around (and while we’re on the subject, although climate does affect skin color, it a surprisingly short amount of time for that trend to shift gears. It’s part of the reason blacks in the US are much lighter than blacks in sub-Saharan Africa). Being born with dark skin doesn’t give you access to an athletic gene pool. Your heredity does (as well as random chance). What you do with that affects your actual outcomes in life, which is why, all along, I’d point you back to the fact that blacks invest more time and energy into dominating the sport of basketball than whites. If white athletes gave up skiing and snowboarding and hockey and wrestling and golf and bull riding and lacrosse and baseball, etc, etc, etc to focus on basketball and football at the same rates that black athletes do, you’d see levels of performance in those sports closer to the general population. You’re just ignoring all of the evidence to the contrary or creating proof out of nothing.
Look, I get that I’m not going to convince you to change your mind, but as you’re often fond of encouraging Self to do, why not try opening your mind and being less stubborn?
-
I seriously wish I had time today to write a novel, but I don’t.
@JayHawkFanToo I know that was what you were referring to. My thoughts on race go much, much deeper than whether we can judge this Ukrainian kid when he hasn’t faced the same competition as kids here.
And that’s all I brought up. It’s the same thing that Bob Kendrick from the Negro Leagues Museum has raised, and other negro league stars – the MLB before integration was not a true elite league.
Likewise, if a kid is playing against only U16 white kids, he’s not seeing the same competition that, say, Cliff Alexander did.
That’s the only injection of race (@wissoxfan) that I provided here. That led to a deeper discussion.
It’s pretty funny that my admiration for the black athlete provokes a question about whether I subscribe to Jimmy the Greek’s philosophy on race.
@truehawk93 said discussing race is a losing battle. That’s because folks can’t discuss it many times without calling folks racist, and without thinking beyond their comfort zone and boundaries. Most are scared to discuss it.
@konkeyDong - Holy crap. What did you just say??
“Being born with dark skin doesn’t give you access to an athletic gene pool. Your heredity does (as well as random chance).”
Your statement “heredity does”? – isn’t that like the end of the argument. Heredity. Exactly.
Perhaps we’re overlapping here. I’m not saying the mere fact that someone is black means anything. Black skin doesn’t create an athlete, of course. However, I am saying that as a percentage of the population, those high level, superior athletes tend to be black. How can anyone argue with that?
You seriously say that boys and girls are not different, then cite that it is the injection of testosterone they get in puberty. Right. Boys get more. Naturally. Through their bodies. And I’m sorry, I’ve coached kids for years. The 7 year old boys basketball team will thrash the 7 year old girls basketball team. Are there some exceptional girls that can play with the boys? Sure. Rare. They can’t generally keep up. But any later change that occurs is natural. Men and women are made differently.
And again, you say athletic girls outperform unathletic boys. Of course they do. But you completely ignore the percentages. MOST vs. SOME.
I still believe basketball is a skill driven game. Certain athletes possess both the skill and athleticism. Much skill can be increased by practice. But each has their own ceiling. But athleticism … the old adage, you can’t teach height. Hard to teach a 40 inch vertical, too.
No, the truly superior black athlete you reference is not necessarily going to play the violin as well. Totally different. Explosiveness, jumping, running fast, quickness – those don’t relate to playing the violin. Those are the qualities I’m referring to.
I’ve pretty much reached the point where I’m done here.
You can’t show me the white Jim Brown, or Bo Jackson, or Lebron James, or Michael Jordan. When you find one, then I’ll have scores more black athletes to throw at you. Dominique Wilkens, Barry Sanders, Walter Payton, Deion Sanders, etc.
Your core fallback is that blacks try harder. And your rationale for that argument is, well, they just do. Ok. Hard to argue with that.
-
@truehawk93 My reasoning doesn’t have much to do with your argument (which seemed to be…that we should want him because you think he can fit Self’s mold of combo/lead guard?). My stance is, we have a crowded perimeter rotation already. If you bring him in, my guess is at least one and quite possibly two of Frankamp/Mason/Graham/Greene transfers. These are all program guys. Guys that will be here probably 3 years at least if they have the opportunity to see the court. I want those guys. Self’s system functions best with program guys.
You say “worst case KU gets a great kid for 2 years, then turns pro.” To me that’s not even close to worst case. To me, worst case is KU gets a kid who has tremendous upside so Self plays him regularly, possibly starts him. However, he’s a 17-year old freshman and at the end of the day isn’t all he was cracked up to be. Good, but not great. After one year he returns home to play professionally overseas. In the meantime, two of the aforementioned program guys on the perimeter transfer. Again, worst case, it’s two of the guys capable of handling the point - Frankamp, Mason, & Graham. Selden & Oubre declare for the draft. So the following year we have one point guard and a thin crop of point guards in the 2015 class to choose from, many of whom are turned off by the recent situation of seeing quality PGs transfer out of the program. So your perimeter rotation for 2015 is: the remaining player from the Graham/Frankamp/Mason trio, Greene, and whoever we can get in the 2015 recruiting class. That is the worst case scenario.
Is that likely? Probably not. A lot of things would have to break bad for that to happen. But would any one of those things by themselves shock you? They wouldn’t me. We almost certainly lose someone to transfer, and I would bet the odds of losing 2 would be 50-50. And as I said, these are guys that are going to be here at least 3 years (Graham & Greene being guys that could leave early, Mason & Frankamp probably not due to their size), and I’m excited to see guys of that caliber here as juniors and seniors.
-
@konkeyDong - Holy crap. What did you just say??
@HighEliteMajor Exactly. What did I say?
“Being born with dark skin doesn’t give you access to an athletic gene pool. Your heredity does (as well as random chance).”
Your statement “heredity does”? – isn’t that like the end of the argument. Heredity. Exactly.
Yes, end of the argument in my favor. Thanks
Perhaps we’re overlapping here. I’m not saying the mere fact that someone is black means anything. Black skin doesn’t create an athlete, of course. However, I am saying that as a percentage of the population, those high level, superior athletes tend to be black. How can anyone argue with that?
How can I argue with that? Simple. The numbers don’t support it. The top athletes in any given sport tend to reflect the skew in participation levels in those sports. Blacks don’t play a lot of baseball and whites do, thus, there are a hell of a lot more white baseball All Stars than black (both by volume and percentage). The concentration of talent by race reflects relative levels of participation among the top tier of athletes for a given race in a given sport. Why would it work any other way?
You seriously say that boys and girls are not different, then cite that it is the injection of testosterone they get in puberty. Right. Boys get more. Naturally. Through their bodies. And I’m sorry, I’ve coached kids for years. The 7 year old boys basketball team will thrash the 7 year old girls basketball team. Are there some exceptional girls that can play with the boys? Sure. Rare. They can’t generally keep up. But any later change that occurs is natural. Men and women are made differently.
This is a failure of reading comprehension on your part. Girls and boys are different, of course. But prepubescent boys don’t hold a significant athletic edge over girls of the same ages. Your subjective experiences are what they are, but people who have done controlled studies will tell you that you’re wrong about 7 year old boys and girls on average. The onset of puberty changes that, of course, but it’s a predictable and non-random change. In other words, being born male doesn’t make you more likely to be born with heightened athleticism. However, being an athletic male is more advantageous than being an athletic female once puberty kicks in. The population of percentage of potential athletes, however, is roughly equal among genders, and no advantage expresses itself during the period of time that physiology is most similar.
I still believe basketball is a skill driven game. Certain athletes possess both the skill and athleticism. Much skill can be increased by practice. But each has their own ceiling. But athleticism … the old adage, you can’t teach height. Hard to teach a 40 inch vertical, too.
No, the truly superior black athlete you reference is not necessarily going to play the violin as well. Totally different. Explosiveness, jumping, running fast, quickness – those don’t relate to playing the violin. Those are the qualities I’m referring to.
I think you’re undervaluing other athletic factors in sports performance, but like I said, I’m willing to drop that line of inquiry.
You can’t show me the white Jim Brown, or Bo Jackson, or Lebron James, or Michael Jordan. When you find one, then I’ll have scores more black athletes to throw at you. Dominique Wilkens, Barry Sanders, Walter Payton, Deion Sanders, etc.
So this is where the rubber hits the road. What you’re asking for as a burden of proof doesn’t prove anything. That’s the problem. It’s not up to me to find a million white MJs in order to disprove your hypothesis. If black populations truly have an inherent genetic advantage in terms of producing elite athletes, those advantages should transcend things like participation levels in said sports. But they don’t. Sub-Saharan genetics don’t make African soccer teams better than European ones on average despite high levels of participation in soccer for all races around the world. Every other sport works the same. You can point to something like testosterone levels (as it relates to muscle development) in men and explain why the best male athletes will always trump the best female athletes, but you provide no similar mechanism for why black populations should hereditarily outperform white ones. And catchalls like evolution don’t help your case because it’s just as advantageous evolutionarily to be able to ‘explosively’ outrun a lion on the Veldt as it is to outrun a grizzly bear in Siberia.
My argument isn’t that blacks just try harder at basketball because they just do. My argument is that black athletes are more likely to focus effort towards basketball compared to white athletes and that the reasons for that are largely cultural and socio/economic. Now get back to me when you can explain the soccer situation.
-
This is a thorny topic, so I will try to shed some light on it.
Full disclosure, I am African American, but my children (if I eventually have any) will not be, as I am in an interracial marriage.
So on to the brass tacks of the issue.
One reason black athletes dominate basketball and football is based on availability. To play basketball, you need very few resources - same with football. You can get a game together if you hang a rim on a telephone pole and you have a ball. With football, if you have a little bit of empty space and a ball, you can have a game.
But that is not the chief reason. The chief reason is selection. Let’s move away from racial discussion for a second and talk about culture.
In the country of India, the #1 sport is cricket. In the Dominican Republic, the #1 sport is baseball. If you have the hand eye coordination to be a good baseball player, you would probably make a good cricket player, too. The difference between which one you become good at has less then to do with your athletic gifts and more to do with where you grow up. If you grow up in Mumbai, you will be a cricket star. If you grow up in Santo Domingo, you will be a baseball star. Chances are if you grow up in Mumbai, you will never even play baseball, the same as if you grow up in Santo Domingo, you will never play cricket.
Does that mean that Dominicans are more athletic because they produce more major leaguers than India? Of course not. If you are athletic and you are Dominican, you play baseball. Are there Dominicans that could be good at other sports? Of course. But they start playing baseball young and develop from there. They play baseball because in the Dominican, playing baseball is the most noble pursuit. Mothers are proud of their shortstops in the DR like mothers are proud of doctors here in the US. Are American Asian kids good at math (as the stereotype suggests) because they are just “better with numbers” or is it because the expectation is that they will excel in math and science just like a Brazilian kid is expected to play soccer, and a Dominican should be able to play shortstop and a black kid from Chicago should have a jump shot.
Highly motivated people of any race can succeed. What they choose to succeed in will depend on availability and exposure. I started dribbling a basketball almost before I could even walk. I succeeded in the business world because I am highly motivated, and those types of people succeed. I know a guy that grew up in Mexico that was a soccer player growing up. Like myself, he succeeded in the business world because he’s highly motivated and those types of people succeed. That’s what makes Lebron and Kobe and Tom Brady and Peyton Manning and all the rest great athletes. They have the skills, but they also have the motivation. They would have succeeded as athletes or stock brokers or dentists or whatever. But they got exposed to sports, and that was where they found their passion.
-
@justanotherfan nice post! I’m betting your kids will be motivated as well!
-
@HighEliteMajor – I normally don’t jump in the middle of the fray. However I must say that I agree with much of your ascertains. It is this very reason I choose to avoid such discussions of race and religion. People can be quite sensitive to the issues. However I do love to discuss (argue) such issues, so I often find myself in the middle anyways.
It is a no brainer that % wise the black race are indeed better athletes and have more athletic ability. There was an actually study done on Black vs White physical makeup. The results of the study were very clear the black person had way more explosive muscles, meaning they could indeed jump higher, run faster, and so on.
Having spoken my piece I do want to try and pin you on something. You raise the question and a good one. How will Sviatoslav do against the athletes in the states. As you’re correct he hasn’t faced the level of talent he would face attending KU and playing the college game. In this regard he very well could be a bust.
Though I think you raise a very valid point, I think you’re overlooking something when it comes to Sviatoslav. Everything he knows about basketball is European, and the last time I checked European players do quite well in the NBA. Now they may not be superstars as they lack some of the athletic ability you speak of, yet they are solid ball players non the less. Sviatoslav may or may not be a superstar, however I do believe the % a very high that he will at the very least be a good role player. Lets not forget HEM that HCBS is a system coach and Sviatoslav being brought up on European BB is by nature a system player.
I think I have to disagree with you HEM. I do believe Sviatoslav would be a perfect fit at KU. Lets not forget what Sviatoslav would do for KU internationally.
-
“The teams having success have true players at their positions.”
As a general statement, I agree.
But the game of basketball is complex. I’ve argued for quite some time now that we needed to find a true PG. I’ve been frustrated with the idea that our team leaders haven’t (typically) been true PGs, but combo guards instead.
This player seems to be a combo guard. But that doesn’t mean I don’t want to recruit him, mostly because he’ll pick up more minutes at the 2, maybe some 3 if he has the strength. First… there is a place for combo guards. Definitely when thinking about depth, a combo guard gives us lots of options to fill in as a reserve at several positions. But also… for specific match ups, sometimes we need a different player, like one with size. This recruit has size.
A player might be so talented that he can play several positions really well. I think back to our '08 team on that one.
Personally… I think this kid is a major grab, especially at this time of the year. I like the fact that no matter how good he may be, it is likely we have him for at least 2 years. Next summer Hudy will have a field day with this guy. He might even be able to play minutes at the 3 after Kelly is gone, especially if he has put on some muscle.
But look beyond his size and current talent level. At some point, coaches have to think about team chemistry. Does anyone in here question if this kid is tough? I bet he doesn’t choke on big games either. He’s already played in front of TV cameras and large crowds. I bet his upside in March is off the charts!
A guy like this will help establish the entire team tone… mentality.
Anytime you can bring in a player who can help mold a positive team character, you do it.
-
“It is a no brainer that % wise the black race are indeed better athletes and have more athletic ability.”
I think this statement is too general. Perhaps you should refine it to the black race that comes from a background of slavery. This gets into some explanations of historic slavery issues, but it seems possible that those circumstances (like forced breeding of best physical males and females) plays a part in this.
I’ve been to Africa. The type of athleticism people are thinking about (fast-twitch muscle development) is not a definite dominant feature all through Africa. I’d say many areas of Africa produce people with better slow-twitch muscles, capable of big time endurance because of their own personal needs of survival from generation-to-generation. That’s why you don’t see Africans running short distances (how we view athleticism) and winning Olympic medals. They are masters of the long endurance races.
What I’m getting at is we are a long ways away from determining if race (by itself) produces a difference in what we view as athleticism (fast-twitch muscle).
It is easier (and more realistic) to look at more defined groups and study their backgrounds and hypothesize on the factors that may give them superior fast-twitch muscles and why.
I’m pretty sure if you took many varieties of white people, enslave them into tough physical work, control how they create offspring… you will soon (a few generations) be able to compare their general physical characteristics with their black counterparts who had the same history.
Peoples (subsets) differ. We can build statistics that show subsets of races and they perform uniquely from other subsets. There always seems to be a logical reason for those differences because each subset has genetically molded to their survival needs. Other factors also must be included… like when there were situations of forced reproduction.
Genetics come from somewhere. And what we do have a grasp on (a bit) is mother nature. Organisms adapt in order to survive. Superior fast-twitch muscle is part of an individuals genetic code. We don’t have a total grasp of understanding here, but we know the lifestyle of the generations before DO impact the genetics moving forward. It’s part of the survival equation.
It would help everyone to visit Africa. To experience some of the varieties of black cultures and to experience masses of black people who don’t seem to match your previous experiences with black people in America. All I can say is I’m 100% sure you will come back with a completely different perspective on everything, including this subject.
I have come to conclude that general statements, like “black people are better athletes than white people” is a statement swimming in racism. Why? First, it is way too general of a statement and with a expanded view of both races it doesn’t seem to be true. The thing to look at (and possibly come up with generalizations) is with subsets. Subsets group the people in specific circumstances that can create general differences, and then we can pinpoint the circumstances that created those differences. Differences (in the general sense) always have a reason why.
The statement, “black people are better athletes than white people” implies racism because it opens a pandora’s box of comparisons. For example, are black people or white people ‘more intelligent’?
The world is too big. You will never corner the entire black population (or white population) to properly study them as one group. And who qualifies as black or white? Hispanic people? Chinese? Without hard science our statements are based on our own personal interpretations. This subject is too complicated for any one person to see enough of the picture to make a broad statement. Therefore… it can be viewed as (potentially) a racist statement.
-
@drgnslayr, no I want him because he is a combo/lead type player. But he’s proven. He won’t come into Self’s system with unrealistic expectations and I see @icthawkfan316 point which is valid about our “program guys.” Bottom line if a kid comes in and can “combo/lead,” then great, let’s get him, if not, let’s not force him into a position he can’t play.
@icthawkfan316 scenario is a bit drastic, but possible and a difficult one to predict. Once again in the world of recruiting, you have no guarantees. I said in my post too that IF ‘Mick’ choses KU, it will only strengthen KU as a team. It won’t hurt, unless the players you point out do transfer. I love Connor, Green, and Mason, but I can’t prevent them from transferring. We don’t even know if they transfer. I think if Green was transferring, he would already be gone. Self has convinced him to stay. My guess is Connor will stay. I do agree with @HighEliteMajor that Mason may be a flight risk too. But it’s up to Mason to compete and become better or it’s up to Graham to compete and become a better player.
I read the article on ESPN about the NBA combine and how many players stretched their heighth. Many were 1-1 1/2 shorter than listed.
If you ask me what to do if “Mick” choses KU (and he’s not even chosen yet), what will you do with our “program guys”? Well, the “program guys” compete and get better or they lose their spot. These “program guys” aren’t entitled. If you don’t do your job better than the next guy, your company will replace you with a better or more talented employee. It sounds cruel, but it’s business.
Our beloved @HighEliteMajor demonstrated to us how the conversation between Self and hypothetical Lucas would look. Transfers happen. I don’t want them to, but if KU can get a guy that Self thinks will fit his and your ideal “combo” or “lead” player, then what’s the problem. I trust Self on this prospect and trust him to keep the team together. But, if transfers are chosen, then so be it.
Lastly, @icthawkfan316 This kid is 17 yrs old and HEM’s whole argument about him not playing against upper level talent is a bit exaggerated. He played in the Nike Summit with other players that were as talented. He did play with a lot of D1 type talent. He has played against America’s black high school athlete and D1 prospects. All the scouts love him too. We’ll be fine. I don’t think the sky is falling with or without him.
You all have a great wknd.
-
@drgnslayr --Maybe I was being to general but my point doesn’t change. I’m a logical person and think in logical terms. Now I know this doesn’t always equate to a truth or a form of correctness, but in some ways it is a form of reality. Meaning I’m not trying to define what racism is or even aspire to it. I’m merely accepting a reality to be fact.
For instance it is a proven fact that Black Americans have a different muscle structure than do their white counter parts. In a study it was proven that Black Americans are indeed more explosive in running and jumping. This is a reality.
Look no further than physically demanding sports. Take Football and basketball the two most popular sports in our country. They’re rosters are loaded with black Americans. This is a reality.
When you watch the drafts of these two sports. The first round is chocked full of Black Americans being picked with the occasional white American receiving a nod. This is a reality.
How many Black Americans do you see or hear that are drafted on potential? Now why is that? Are they talking about the potential of their mind? You no that answer is no. When a Black American is drafted on potential they are talking about their physical abilities and what they can do. You never hear of a white American being drafted on potential. This is a reality.
Look I can go on for days but I think you get my point. No I haven’t traveled the world so my views are limited. However America is my world and my reality, and everything I see and read tells me that at least here in the states Black Americans are the better athletes.
Further more I wish people wouldn’t throw around the term racism so easy. It undermines what it really means. Reality is we are not all created equal it’s just a fact of life. Maybe if we can talk about these differences and accept them there would be less racism in the world. Now that’s a reality.
-
I understand your point. I’m just trying to find a descriptive ground where we can all identify with it so we can have this conversation without seeming to make racist comments (by some people’s description).
My point is that we stay away from the very general description of strictly black and white. Keep it a subset and perhaps there is hard science out there that will backup a big part of your claims.
I like your last post better… precisely addressing black Americans over the more general term of black.
BTW: I’m not really touchy on race. Nothing in this thread insults me personally. But I do understand how many people get offended, so I try my best to address topics without ticking off a bunch of people. In my efforts… I still probably failed with some people.
Another thing… I don’t really believe that if we could generate hard science on the entire population of black people and white people there would be much (if any) difference. I do believe the differences come from the historic situations surrounding subsets within each group. I’m sure there are certain white subsets that have superior athleticism over other white subsets, too.
-
For instance it is a proven fact that Black Americans have a different muscle structure than do their white counter parts. In a study it was proven that Black Americans are indeed more explosive in running and jumping. This is a reality.
@DoubleDD The thing is, ddd, this is far from settled science. While there is some science that shows that there are genetic markers in some (not all) populations of people with West African ancestry (and again, it’s unclear exactly how much of the US black population falls into that group largely because of the slave trade) that may advantage sprinters, there are a lot of strikes against this research that are yet to be resolved. For instance, although West African ancestry correlates highly in top sprinters, actual West African nations produce very few of the top sprinters in the world. Also, those sprinters with West African ancestral markers also tend to have genetic markers for European ancestry too.
I liken such claims to those of nutritionist who claim that aspartame (the artificial sweeter in diet pop) makes people fat. They point to studies that show high correlation between drinking diet soda and being overweight, but that’s not a causal relationship. After all, people who are overweight often drank sugar-sweetened pop before becoming overweight and only switched to diet pop after the fact.
And if you look at stereotype that ‘white men can’t jump’ (which HEM implied exists for the reason that it’s true), it doesn’t hold up under scrutiny. Compare the top 10 world records for long jump and high jump. Of the top 10 long jumpers, 8 of 10 are black and 2 of ten are white, but of the top 10 high jumpers, 7 of 10 are white. So white men can indeed jump, often with superior verticality compared to black men. So if those Northern/Eastern European white dudes spent more time on the court and less time on the track, odds are they too could finish elbows above the rim in ways that CF could only dream of. That’s been my point this whole time.
-
@drgnslayr – The funny thing is I was really trying to talk about Sviatoslav Mykhailiuk? and whether he has any game. To be honest I’m not sure how this blog turned into a subject on race.
As I said before I’m a bit closed minded when it comes to the world. My reality is the one around me. The one that I live in. I don’t take things for granted and accept the realities that surround me.
I mean no harm to you drgnslayr when I say this, but I think you and I have different views on this subject. See to me differences should be celebrated and accepted. Correct me if I’m wrong but you seem to want to bury/hide them because of the skin colors. To me it’s just reality. Look around the sports world black Americans are rocking it.
Don’t get me wrong? I understand with dedication and hard work much can be accomplished. Yet man there are some things that can’t be taught. That’s why we watch.
I know what I’m saying has an elk of stereotyping, However let me ask you this question would you try to diminish a genius even though you knew it was genetics that created their high IQ? Just my two cents and I’ll leave it alone. You sir may have the last word.
Hey what’s your thoughts on Sviatoslav?
-
@konkeyDong --You make some interesting points and I would say you have a strong case. However I will raise a rebuttal if you would allow me.
First I’m no track star and have never competed or participated in such activities. However I have watched many Olympics. You know as well as I do that those athletes no matter what race, they train a certain way, and practice technic like no other. The point I’m making here is that a long jumper or high jumper is a specialized sport. Where training is as important as physical ability. Not to say that the person competing in these types of sports aren’t gifted, but technic and coaching are just as important.
The second point I would make is that here in the Untied States track sports rank pretty low on the food chain. It doesn’t mean we don’t like them or don’t watch them. It’s that when we do watch them it’s because it’s the US versus the world kind of thing. You know root for our country. I said all that to say this I think I can safely say that our best American black athletes play American sports like Football, Basketball, and Baseball in that order. You see track sports aren’t getting the best American Black athletes. Correct me if I’m wrong but I would venture to say that if there was only track and field the American Black athlete would dominate. As in most cases they already do.
I can’t speak for other black people in other countries but here in the states our black American brothers can flat out get with it. Now I know not it’s not cool or politically correct to group people together, as there are always exceptions to the rule. However only a blind man couldn’t see that the American black athlete are dominating sports in our country. There is nothing wrong with stating the obvious. That’s all I’m saying.
-
@DoubleDD think it’s time to move back to original post! I say if self thinks this kids great, go for it! Imagine how much he can still grow! HEM, I would be very upset if Mari transferred!!! It would be a big deal! Keep him off the streets and having a warm home! Also, I worked the KU relays doubledd, we have some outstanding kids on our track team! You are missing out if you haven’t seen them!!!
-
@DoubleDD Speaking of track, when are they REMOVING THE TRACK IN MEMORIAL STADIUM?!?!
-
@HighEliteMajor- Now that I’ve read the Lions share of this thread, my only comment is this.
I once knew a farmer who, made a very good living selling unborn colts & phillies-sight un seen. Some clients even asked what color (dark or light) they would be.
He also told me he could see his buyers a mile away.
-
@Crimsonorblue22 --Thank you. I don’t know what to think of this Sviatoslav kid. He seems to have the skills to play at a high level. To be honest I’m wondering if he is just looking for a safe place to be with all the current unrest in his own country. Your heart kind of has to go out to the kid. Either way HCBS is interested. So if he is then so am I.
Yes I know a little about KU’s track team. (I’m just a KU nut job) (It seems I love all things KU) It has been quite successful in producing track stars. Problem is just like every thing else at KU it’s overshadowed by our basketball team. But hey who’s complaining?
-
@VailHawk --Brother that’s what I’m talking about. Our football program needs all the love we can give it. Watching KU football on tv with that track just doesn’t seem right. They get rid of that track and give our track team it’s own field (like they deserve). I’ll be come a season ticket holder for both sports.
-
@DoubleDD where are you? We have a new track, rock chalk park. More importantly than watching a fb game w/out the track, would be to win!!!
-
@Crimsonorblue22 --My job has carried me away from my home the last 20 years. However I have a little money saved and my kid is about to graduate from high school and is going to attend KU.
Now I know what you thinking but I had no influence on her decision Now that you mention it, I knew that. Excuse me I’m sucking done a few cold ones and working on my old power Ram. She’s a beauty. 3/4 ton baby blue 4x4 pulling machine.
-
Who is Sviatoslav Mykhailiuk? A member of the Human Race.
-
@KansasComet sounds good to me- plus coach likes him!
-
So is he there? Sightings?
-
@justanotherfan Wow, this issue twists people in knots. I keep seeing no white kids playing bb here, yet we see brilliant white basketball players coming over from Europe all the time. So, I think this is an American thing. I think white kids gave up trying to compete with black kids in this country because they thought they were inferior physically. And many times they were. Yet we see hard nosed white kids succeed all the time in the game.
-
Would not be a bad thing for Frankamp or Mason to red shirt, if jam at the 1-2 positions becomes too crowded this season. Terrific potential for each of them, as program players who opt to stay the full course. At least, they are not likely to be ushered out the door.
-
Look, when talking about “race”, we sometimes get sidetracked by our attempts to abstractly analyze perceived “differences” in race. And we all are susceptible to the human tendency to “summarize”, or “boil it all down”.
Why can’t we judge each athlete individually, with all of the scientific and stastical analytics? Why cant we realize that what makes one athlete run faster or jump higher is not only their % of muscle mass, but ALSO their RATIO of fast-twitch to slow-twitch muscle fibers? I’m not saying anything new here, and most of us have heard of this. Or get even more scientific and study the proportions of mitochondria inside muscle cells, and if that also is a variation between people in general and outstanding athletes by comparison. A sports-science study of muscle variations between non-athletes vs average Div.1 athletes vs elite-level athletes (like Wiggins) I’m sure has been done, as that is where some of these differences are already known from.
All this talk about “effort” or “want it more” is only the psyche part, isnt it? Look at a 5star athlete like Elijah Johnson, who absolutely has the size, weight, athleticism, vertical jump, etc…to be a prototypical NBA guard. The ONLY reason he didnt make it, is because he was an inconsistent performer due to inconsistent motivation. He simply could not “harness” that inner fire except on rare occasion. Nice guy persona. Let me sum him up in another way: EJ couldnt make himself play like a Russell Westbrook. Frankly, if he could have, then 5star (EJ) would have been able to unseat BStar very early on…not having to wait until Brady graduated.
And since I have a medical background, let’s not shy away from the genetics discussion, in a general sense: just look at everyday people, or even kids playing on a schoolyard and see the variations in size/mass/bone structure that humans come in. Thank or dont thank your parents and forefathers. And what you do with what they’ve genetically given you is partly up to you, partly up to fate. And it is well-known that there are racial differences in the body’s response to certain medicines (certain blood pressure meds, for example). And just think for a moment, as our forefathers passed on to us a genetic metabolic ‘flaw’ such as a tendency to diabetes (Native Americans even more than the entire population), there could also be genetic ‘not-flaws’ (variations) that endow enhanced metabolism or muscle performance.
I would postulate that high-level athletes are simply the few who exceed the norm, in physical performance, be it due to genetic muscle size and composition variations, or coupled with a larger size than most other humans. Then you throw in coordination, will-power and determination and work ethic, and maybe you get a star player. Be that Jared Allen (DTackle), or a Ray Lewis (LB) or a Deion Sanders (DB) or a Michael Jordan (G). MJ was the first in his family to be over 6ft tall. Couple his determination, and you see the legend. His 5’11 brother Larry had alot of determination, but wasnt “gifted” physically.
I prefer to simply admire elite athletes/superstars for the truly rare, gifted individuals that they are. They simply exist at the far one end of the bell-shaped curve of human physique and physiology. I dont care what color they are, as that’s only the top 2mm of skin. It’s all about what you were given genetically, and what you do mentally and physically to maximize what you do have. That’s a fine summation, but it plays out brutally in the sports world: 6ft 160lb Connor Frankamp may have mentally and physically maximized every aspect of his ability, but he would simply be outclassed by 6’3 200lb Kirk Hinrich (or Russell Westbrook) who is equally mentally and physically maximized in every aspect of his ability. Connor Frankamp should be a starter from Day 1 at a lesser school. Making him compete against bigger, faster, stronger guys (of whatever color) puts him at a permanent disadvantage. Man, this is nothing new. There’s Div1, Div2, Div3, and NAIA levels of competition. So far he is proving a better decision maker than Naadir Tharpe, but his development and actual real mpg remains to be seen, as he is locked in a tremendous battle with his own teammates.
My personal taste is to root for superstars. Seeing the “little guy win” is not for me, as that is less predictable, less reliable. I am a royalty program alum and fan–so why would I root for the ‘underdog’–that would be like rooting for the killer-B’s or UNI or something…nope, not me. The hope of a non-royalty school fan/alum may be to simply ‘make the Dance’…we expect much more than that. High level play. There is a reason Self and Calipari and Kryzyewski try to recruit elite-ranked athletes. So I like & expect high-level play already, as a concept. Rooting for superstars means I am rooting for exceptional levels of play. So I like MJ. I like LeBron. I like DWade. I like Chalmers, who is a 6’1 athletic freak. So is Kirk Hinrich. So is Thomas Robinson. I liked Dirk Nowitzki a few yrs ago. Micah Downs was an athletic freak and a MickeyD, but he was forced to compete against some equally skilled guys in college. Simple law of sports–there’s always going to be someone bigger, stronger, faster than you…and Micah exactly ran into such types ahead of him on the KU roster. Same thing happened to Andrew White. Outcompeted.
Lets see what Embiid and Wiggins desire and motivation (& luck) can do with their ultra-rare physiques.
-
@REHawk I agree that Frankamp maybe ought to redshirt, as he stands to gain the MOST out of physical maturation that occurs as young men go from age 19-21. Trade a skinny-body year for a chiseled 10+ pound heavier-body year 3 yrs later. Its his best bet, considering the competition and physicality he is facing on his own team’s roster. And if Devonte Graham has true leader/PG instincts and a 35%+ trey gun, then the writing is on the wall for Frankamp. It wont be a Shocker, but he might…
Regarding 5’11, 190lb Frank Mason: Really dont think he redshirts. Why? He already has a physicality and aggression to play this game. He is already a chiseled, tough body. He got the most mpg of any guard off the bench. He just needs the experience to hone his decision-making, which already got better as the season went on. We NEED Frank Mason this year. You cannot ask your most experienced guard to redshirt, and hope that Graham “gets it”. What frosh PG under Bill Self has ever shined in Yr1, other than Sherron? And Sherron was not asked to be a starter…only to perform in stretches, which he thrillingly did so. Not even the #1 rated PG (Selby) was able to come and run Self’s offense, although he got jobbed/robbed of precious 8games of nonconference play which could have created a much better, experienced Selby by Tournament time…(& dont forget the injuries x 2).
-
@ralster I get what your saying about Mason and you may very well be right, my only question is if Self was completely sold on him, why didn’t he get those crucial minutes in the NCAA tournament (the most important minutes of the entire season) and instead Self felt more comfortable with CF? Obviously all the minutes and experience he garnered throughout the season over CF wasn’t enough for Bill to feel comfortable with him when Tharpe shat the bed.
I don’t want to place too much importance on a two game sample, but what was he preparing Mason for if not those situations?
-
Sasha kaun is playing on NBA network, about over.
-
@icthawkfan316 Mason can penetrate and dish, he’ll be wiser-I hope, this year. CF is a very safe pt and a great shooter. There’s a place for them both. Match ups will play into it, height is a concern. Anxious to see both of them stronger and have quicker feet - defense- next fall!
-
@Crimsonorblue22 Well I semi-agree on your assessment of Mason. He can penetrate. Never saw a lot of quality dimes dropped by him off his drives, and often his shots off his drives were wild and unsuccessful (a la Tyshawn for a good portion of his career).
Regardless, it doesn’t answer my question as to why Self went with CF over Mason in the NCAA tournament. Against two completely different teams.
I’m not saying CF isn’t the right choice to red-shirt if it comes to that. Maybe he is. But the decisions and quotes by Self in the NCAA tournament regarding CF give me pause about anointing Mason the starter. I think it may come down to what Graham provides and who is the better compliment to him and the rest of the perimeter.
-
@icthawkfan316 just a guess, needed pts against Stanford, needed safe against eastern whoever. I think coach likes masons, make it happens moves. Now, make it happen under control!!
-
Your fine, @DoubleDD !
I was just trying to prevent us from being blasted by someone… and I do what I do best - when trying to defuse something I’m the one with the match!
Back to the main subject… I’m liking Sviatoslav… but I am like everyone else and limited to a few youtube clips and press releases. Just seeing a kid who understands (and knows how to establish) scoring space is a huge find for KU. I’m trying to think of the last guard KU had that understood scoring space… hmmm… we probably have to go back to Langford!
The very least he can do is teach other players how to create scoring space!
-
Whew…a day on this board makes a big difference. I had a long night at the hospital and thought reading some encouraging feeds would be nice. So, the banter is back to ‘normal’ or at least what we are capable of discussing…players, recruiting, and KU basketball.
When we all speculate about what HCBS will do with various players, it’s all about his options. I’ve said it over and again that he plans according to pieces. If we get ‘Mick,’ I think it then changes his options.
I agree that it may be to Connor’s advantage to RS and take time to really develop, grow, and improve his skills. Why not? It certainly won’t hurt. It can only help him at this point.
I also agree and like what is said about Mason. I think Mason is far above Connor in many basic skills and his ceiling for shooting is higher. They both exhibit excellent skills. I just think that right now, Mason is the nod for pg, with Graham to back him.
Connor RS would also allow Green to be the backup at the 2 and the 3 for Oubre and Selden. These guys are just a bit above Connor when it comes to most other skills than shooter. Connor is obvious one of the best shooters on the team, but could use some time to polish. He’s a hard worker.
Now, here is where your options get sticky. If ‘Mick’ signs, then Self’s options just increase tremendously. I think we may let our ‘feelings’ interfere with what is best and right for the team. I hate to say it, but if Connor doesn’t bring his skill set up to par with his shooting, he may well be an unfortunate candidate for the dreaded transfer. We all know his skill sets are lacking, but truth of the matter is D1, KU, and B12 players have to bring some major talent and skills to the court.
If ‘Mick’ signs, it just might signal something for a player or two. But if they are patient, they’ll play, but just not as much. This is my point throughout this entire thread. If you have a choice between ‘Mick’ or Connor, it’s a difficult choice because Connor is a Kansas boy. However, he’s a soph and if ‘Mick’ comes, many believe he will only be two years, this would make Connor a senior and his senior yr might just be his identifying year and ready to impact as we all think Connor can impact at KU. Connor wouldn’t compete with ‘Mick’ but he would be a casualty of pt by default for mere numbers. If Oubre leaves in two years, ‘Mick’ would be a great piece to have for one more year. Green would also be able to go the distance and would be a senior if Oubre and ‘Mick’ all draft. Regardless of what you think or feel, it’s exciting.
-
@truehawk93 sooooo, you ok?
-
I get that race is a touchy subject. I do. I get that it’s easy to try to explain away the obvious. I get that it’s uncomfortable. I get that one can look at exceptions can always be used to try to attack what we see. We rely on silly explanations to make us feel better. We make silly, irrelevant arguments. Being different doesn’t make us “unequal.”
The races are not the same. Does anyone really think that we are all the same and we are essentially spray painted? How stupid is that.
The races originated in varying areas of the world and adapted to those conditions. Those with the traits that permitted survival were more apt to procreate than those that didn’t. Does anyone dispute the “survival of the fittest” theories? Those with the physical (and I’m sure mental) adaptions needed for the region of the world they lived in were more apt to survive. Does anyone really dispute that? Is someone with a deadly genetic disorder more or less likely to procreate? It depends on the onset. But if death occurs before age 10, for example, that genetic disorder is not going to get passed on.
Now, skin color, per say, means nothing really other than the pigmentation adaptation to sun exposure. But the general physical characteristics of those that have certain skin color is certainly passed along. Those that possess a certain skin color, based on their region, have other adaptive characteristics.
A very good doctor friend of mine (who happens to black) pointed out to me that there are number of genetic conditions that afflict folks based on race. He has no qualms in agreeing to the differences.
He reminded me that blacks have a significantly higher incidence of sickle cell anemia than other populations. It afflicts 1 out of 500 blacks, but only 1 out of 36,000 hispanics. Most all research points to malaria as the source of the genetic alterations, and thus blacks in Africa were much more susceptible. That is, simplistically, the sickle cell itself helped ward off malaria. Thus those with the sickle cell trait were more apt to survive malaria. Malaria, over the history of man, is considered one of the largest killers. This trait continues in blacks today. It is not hard to imagine that other adaptive, survival of the fittest, traits would continue through today. The sickle cell trait is more prevalent in areas where malaria is an issue, it’s just more focused on blacks.
Another interesting item my friend pointed out to me – those of Scandinavian decent are much more prone to type 1 diabetes due to a genetic defect. Same with cystic fibrosis with northern Europeans. A higher prevalence. He noted other examples to me.
He also pointed me to that there have been multiple studies regarding athletes and muscle development, etc. His opinion was that discussion is constrained by the “everyone is the same mentality.”
Below is a link to an author he was aware of, and an explanation that is worth reading. Just as information.
http://run-down.com/guests/je_black_athletes_p1.php
I’m going to try to be done with this topic. It’s very difficult to discuss it productively. And it distracts from what we really like to discuss.
-
I agree that it may be to Connor’s advantage to RS and take time to really develop, grow, and improve his skills. Why not?
@truehawk93 You answered your own question later in the post. You don’t want to redshirt if a transfer is a possibility. If he redshirts then later decides to transfer, he burns a year of eligibility. That is why he might be hesitant to take a RS. He might look at the situation and his competition - Mason & Graham - both of whom will likely be on the team for most if not all of his eligibility, and decide he wants to have 3 years eligibility someplace else.
I would also disagree with the statement “we all know his skill sets are lacking.” I would agree that he is less athletic than his competition. But skills - ball handling, passing, shooting, defending - I would grade him pretty even with Mason, maybe slightly better overall.
-
@icthawkfan316 Seems many of us thought CS should take a redshirt last season, and Self said he thought he could help us. Self was right there. CF may very well be our starting PG. But does he fit Self’s profile of a “lead” guard? I don’t know. If I had to predict, he’ll be the backup PG and part of a four man rotation. He proved his worth and convinced me. I see no reason why he can’t win the job. CF, Selden, Oubre, Mason or Graham, and Greene as the 5th guy. CF seems to give us ball handling, ball security, and shooting. Perfect option.
-
@Crimsonorblue22 oh yea, thanks for asking. Just had a 10 yr old that came into the trauma unit. Pretty rough. But hopefully he’ll be ok. I have a 11 yr old daughter, soon to be 9 yr old second daughter and a soon to be 7 yr old son. Kids are the toughest patients in trauma.
-
@icthawkfan316 I may have failed to clarify. I don’t want anyone to transfer at all. But if it happens for Self to find the right pieces, then unfortunately, it could happen. I think this group could be special if they’ll stick it out all the way through the end. It’s hard to say what will happen. Trust Self that it will work out with or without “Mick.”
-
@HighEliteMajor @DoubleDD Thanks both for chiming back in on this topic. To answer your rebuttal ddd, I think that’s kind of the crux of things. Is the reason white guys own the high jump because that’s where they choose to compete or is it because there is something about being Northern/Eastern European that makes you a better high jumper? I simply don’t think the answer is as self evident as you and HEM do.
I get that it’s easy to try to explain away the obvious… We rely on silly explanations to make us feel better.
I take particular umbrage at a statement like this not because it’s not PC, but because it’s antithetical to scientific inquiry. Being satisfied that what you see is all there is to something is the fastest path to not just ignorance, but regression. Two hundred years ago, people actually believed that flies and maggots were something that was generated directly by the process of decay, as in, they were an inherent part of biological matter, not a wholly external entity. It wasn’t until someone thought to let a piece of beef rot in a vacuum chamber that people figured out something else was going on. From there, germ theory (and literally billions of saved lives) was a stones throw away. Taking at face value that blacks are just automatically more athletic is bad for science (it teaches us nothing about genetics), bad for sports (it teaches us nothing about athletics), and bad for humanities (it teaches us nothing about our behavior). All claims demand scrutiny and all alternatives should be given equal consideration until such time as they fail to be plausible.
The races are not the same. Does anyone really think that we are all the same and we are essentially spray painted? How stupid is that.
No. But this is a straw man. The question isn’t are all races exactly the same or not. It’s specific to the question of athleticism. Does athleticism at large favor one race? Does the correlation of performance in all sports to the races that are over-represented in them prove that those groups are better genetically adapted to them?
A very good doctor friend of mine (who happens to black) pointed out to me that there are number of genetic conditions that afflict folks based on race. He has no qualms in agreeing to the differences.
He reminded me that blacks have a significantly higher incidence of sickle cell anemia than other populations. It afflicts 1 out of 500 blacks, but only 1 out of 36,000 hispanics. Most all research points to malaria as the source of the genetic alterations, and thus blacks in Africa were much more susceptible. That is, simplistically, the sickle cell itself helped ward off malaria. Thus those with the sickle cell trait were more apt to survive malaria. Malaria, over the history of man, is considered one of the largest killers. This trait continues in blacks today. It is not hard to imagine that other adaptive, survival of the fittest, traits would continue through today. The sickle cell trait is more prevalent in areas where malaria is an issue, it’s just more focused on blacks.
This is a good point to bring up and it bears discussing. Yup, the sickle cell trait is one that’s found primarily in people with Sub-Saharan ancestry and yes, it’s beneficial to fighting malaria. At no point, however, have I denied that this is how genetics work. I believe in science and statistics. I believe in the theory of evolution by natural selection. I believe that people adapted to the environments that they lived in over millions of years. No question. But this doesn’t help your case as much as you think it does. Malaria, after all, is limited to a narrow band of the world. Because sickle cells can resist malaria, but also can cause other circulatory problems, places with malaria favored sickle cells (because you’re more likely to be killed by the virus than the sickle cell), and places without it favored non-sickle cells. That said, traits like speed, agility, and strength are universally beneficial. Having European genetics in and of itself is no reason to prevent someone from developing these traits geographically/evolutionarily speaking.
Below is a link to an author he was aware of, and an explanation that is worth reading. Just as information.
I’m glad you brought up this book (Taboo by John Entine is where this information comes from). It’s a good read and it brings up a lot of information about genetics and race insofar as it relates to athletic performance. However, the research and statistics quoted in the book neither represent the final word on the genetic science, nor do they fully account for all factors and considerations. Let me bring up one specific claim mentioned in the book and article:
Blacks of exclusively West African ancestry make up 13 percent of the North American and Caribbean population but 40 percent of Major League baseball players, 70 percent of the NFL, and 85 percent of professional basketball.
The problem with this claim is that it isn’t actually true. The way Entine counts ‘exclusive’ West African ancestry is to assume that includes anyone who traces their roots back to the slave trade counts (this book was originally released around 2000, btw, and I don’t know if he’s released a more updated version recently but the attribution on the cite appears to be from that edition), but more recent data suggests that our average Western Hemisphere dwelling black person has significant European ancestry (58% of US blacks have European ancestry equivalent to having at least one white great-grandparent), and it’s unclear/unknown if all black slaves were exclusively from West African countries.
It’s also worth noting that although the books general claim is that West African ancestry gives a competitive edge in some sports and that there’s science that supports those claims (and I’m not saying there isn’t), it also suggests that other races have characteristics that benefit them in other sports/athletic endeavors as well. My bigger criticism with this book, however, is that it draws too broad of conclusions based on the data it cites. The closest thing that there is a scientific consensus to is that a specific gene common in West African ancestry (but far from exclusive to it) that allows people of that genetic grouping to dominate sprinting sports has been identified.
Entine overreaches, imho, including jumping sports as well, though. As I included in my links above, although black men do hold a majority of records in the long jump and hurdles, high jump records are largely held by Eastern/Northern Europeans. Although a number of black men possess exceptional vertical leaps (MJ’s was about 48" ), the highest recorded (although somewhat disputed) belongs to a French man of Persian ancestry by the name of Kadour Ziani, at 60" or 5’. The next best (and better documented) belongs to a Cuban by the name Leonel Marshall Jr (the high jump record also belongs to a Cuban, and in either case, being Hispanic, Cubans trace their ethnic origins largely back to Europe).
There are other studies in other sports that are dominated by white people that try to draw biomechanical/genetic conclusions on why white guys rule there. One such study was by a team of Duke researchers about whites and swimming, and concluded that things such as white’s average height advantage and having slightly more body fat compared to Sub-Saharan blacks (supposedly increasing buoyancy) are what make them better. But this, HEM, is why I brought up Michael Phelps to you. If the Duke research is true, and Phelps represents the pinnacle of European advantage in swimming, why, with his Tyshawn Taylor-esque proportions (the two are the same height and have the same wingspan) and clearly good ‘burst’ speed, could Phelps not have become as good or better a basketball player as TT?
He also pointed me to that there have been multiple studies regarding athletes and muscle development, etc. His opinion was that discussion is constrained by the “everyone is the same mentality.”
I think it’s worth repeating that the PC/‘everyone is the same’ argument is a straw man to what I’m discussing, and that I think we are having an open discussion about race/genetics and it’s affects on athletic performance and it’s one that I’ve enjoyed (even if that’s not true for the rest of everyone else. Sorry to hijack the thread, all, but this is the only time I’ve ever been able to have this discussion with, essentially, strangers). There probably aren’t too many places on the internet where a group of people with disparate political/social/economic opinions could have a discussion like this without it degenerating into a real flame war (even if some of our language seems inflammatory to the other).
Anyway, it’s not that I think everyone is the same with only superficial differences, it’s that I don’t think the notion that black people have the market cornered on elite athleticism (even if you limit it to burst speed, agility/change of direction, vertical jumping, distance jumping, throwing/shooting, body control) is well supported by the best genetic science. Even if it is true that West African/Sub-Saharan ancestry provides for some things, it certainly doesn’t appear to cover all bases. European ancestry appears to bring a lot to the table as well. As it relates to basketball specifically, European ancestry appears to me to actually be favored with vertical jumping, upper and lower body strength, and height (yes, even in American, white males are the tallest group on average).
If basketball were solely about who could move the fastest in quick, (mostly) linear bursts, a book like Taboo would be awfully damning. But like most professional sports, it’s a lot more complicated of a game than that. Given that I don’t believe the research supports the idea that black athletes are either necessarily more prevalent per capita, nor that they possess a monopoly on genes that could/do give a competitive advantage in the sport (or in sports in general), I’m forced to look at other factors that may bias those numbers. I think there’s good support for my hypothesis. Part of the problem I have with your position, guys, is that the aforementioned ‘speed gene’, although more common among West African blacks, is a mutation that also occurs in white people, so if it’s true that more white people are spending just as much time and energy as black people on becoming the next Lebron, even if the gene is present at a lower rate, white people should still be churning out lots of athletes that can compete at the highest levels of basketball with black athletes. I think the reality is that they probably do, but for reasons of culture and socio/economics, the best white athletes tend to compete more in other sports. Now, I don’t expect to necessarily sway anyone with my arguments, but I don’t like having my case misrepresented by people trying to put words in my mouth either.
Lastly, I leave you with a bit of anecdotal evidence that I in no way claim represents the best data or is statistically significant, but it does reflect why I think white people really aren’t putting as much effort into being the best basketball players compared to blacks: Professionally, I’m a software developer (as I write this at 2am on a Sunday, I’m supporting server updates). In my career and in my personal life, I’ve encountered what I believe is an inordinate number of really tall people (4 men, all of them white and nerdy) who had never played a game of organized basketball (or any other sports really) in their lives. The heights of these men range from 6’7" to 7’0" (really 3 guys 6’8"ish and one footer). Despite having been that tall since being freshmen or sophomores in HS, none of them was ever even asked to tryout for their basketball team. All of them are/were overweight to some degree. Again, that proves nothing as far as the white Lebron at IBM scenario, but I buy into the idea that those giant guys wouldn’t have been ignored by their HS’s basketball coach had they been black.
Anyway, HEM and ddd, please feel free to respond if you have more to say on the matter, but I’ll leave my part in the discussion at that. Thanks all for bearing with us.
-
@konkeyDong Actually, I am one poster who has not borne with you. Early on, I grew weary of all this racial bullhockey. Kudos to Statmachine for opening a new Mykhailiuk thread, hopefully with everyone gathering back on target.
