BILL SELF - HALL OF FAME COACH. How do the Bucketeer's feel?
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@Lulufulu Roy Williams was an assistant at UNC when KU won. Not sure what you mean?
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@Lulufulu Roy was never an assistant to Larry Brown.
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@Lulufulu Roy took over a team that had been excellent for 5 years: Bill took over a team that had been excellent for 20 years: Larry took over a team that had sucked the past 5 years. No comparison, imo. Now, if you want to say who has the best record, then Bill wins. Beyond that, nobody has accomplished what Larry did.
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@KUSTEVE “Uncle Ted ran this program into the ground, and he should’ve been let go way before he was finally fired, imo.”
Hey, we tried in 1978 with the “Gong Owens” campaign.
However, I do acknowledge the guy bled Crimson and Blue and has stayed loyal despite our fans turning on him. He just couldn’t recruit well and his in-game coaching got stuck in the 60’s.
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@mayjay I remember that. It is so funny for me to hear people complain about a 30 win season with an Elite 8 appearance as failure. No, that is not failure. Failure is going 8-18. Failure is making the NCAA tournament one time in five years. Failure is losing to the Shlockers in your one appearance in five years. Can you imagine how bonkers the fan base would be if Bill had back to back losing seasons? Uncle Ted did that several times.
Uncle Ted made two Final Fours. Both times, his teams won 2 games to make it there.
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Here is the HOF site listing this week’s events associated with this year’s ceremony. (You might need to have lots of disposable income to really get involved.)
http://www.hoophall.com/events/enshrinement/enshrinement-calendar/
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The reality is that Larry Brown got teams to be good the wrong way and Bill Self does it the right way. Every college programs Larry Brown has coached has been put on probation because the things he did. Yes, he is a great coach, perhaps one of the better coaches of all time, but he also has a penchant for cutting corners which diminished his stature greatly.
Like most KU fans, until recently I was under the impression that the probation after the '88 championship season was due to the Askew situation, but recently we have learned that the violations were considerably more serious and KU came within a whisker of getting the death penalty; as usual, Brown left KU one step ahead of the law.
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@JayHawkFanToo Whether LB did it right or wrong, he did rescue us from the Ted Owens abyss. He gave us a title, and paved the way for the hire of the century … Roy Williams. But the Self way is the far, far better way.
Maybe Bob Fredrickson deserves our kudos? He has my eternal gratitude.
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@JayHawkFanToo He made an impact on our program in more than one way.
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@KUSTEVE Your right. Larry is the one Coach that got this program turned back around for sure always be one of my favorite Coaches. As far as hiring Danny’s dad I remember how Mizzery fans about flipped their hats I loved it - look at what some of these schools are doing now - with hiring some people to get kids, Larry was just one step ahead. - Larry still attends a lot of KU games, seems as though he still has that passion for KU basketball. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@jayballer54 Fizzou fans’ reaction to that hire was nothing compared to UNC fans, who had eagerly watched Danny grow up to be a star, and counted on him being a Tar Heel until Ed whisked him away to Lawrence for his senior year.
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I am a Larry Brown fan. Big time. But he pushed the envelope in areas and put Kansas in deep peril with the NCAA.
I think it is a bit of a stretch to say Larry “saved” Kansas basketball. Larry gave Kansas basketball an injection of success again. It was big, especially during that time period. Hard to say if we would be were we are today without Larry’s stint. I sort of think NOT. Especially since Larry was a part of bringing Bill to us.
The question remains… is it worth it to gamble the reputation of THE basketball landmark university for an injection of wins?
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@drgnslayr Hindsight makes us all smarter. Brown DID save our program, and that was fine with the fan base for 30 years. Now, some additional information comes out making Brown look bad, and everyone wants to rewrite history. To suggest we didn’t care if Brown cheated, we just wanted wins assumes we had knowledge of the infractions, and looked the other way. And we both know that is not how it worked. I recognize Brown’s contributions to our program, while I condemn his methods at the same time.
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@KUSTEVE It wasn’t fine with me for 30 years. I was pissed when he left us on probation. I always figured it was more than a couple of phone cards given to recruits. Worse, Larry’s comments these past couple of years about all three schools being penalized show he still doesn’t get it. But we have covered all that before.
As to his legacy, it is mixed. I don’t remember anything actually undermining the legitimacy of the title with ineligible players, so hurray for that, but the way he left stinks, and gives too much fodder to those saying we have cheated since before Wilt.
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@mayjay So, when it was revealed that Brown had given Askew money to go visit his sick grandmother as the reason for probation, you were ashamed of the “stain” that Larry had left our program at the time? Or did that come later, after the problems at SMU surfaced, and more information surfaced decades later about Brown’s tenure at KU? I would’ve thought the 'visiting the sick grandmother" would be compelling enough for you to give a Hall of Fame coach the benefit of the doubt- which I did, considering the NCAA changed the rules later for situations just like that. The other icky stuff didn’t come out until decades later, when it showed that Brown was …pathological??? I think everything happens for a purpose…Larry got us in trouble…Roy almost got us in trouble …and Bill has never been in trouble. none of that has anything to do with Larry saving our program. Larry saved our program, and Roy saved us from Larry.
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We looked the other way on a lot of things. We didn’t know the hammer was going to drop how it did, but let’s not rewrite history saying we didn’t know there was risk involved at the time Larry was here.
I didn’t want to open this can of worms… because it goes much deeper than what we got nailed for. Why rehash this stuff?
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At the time, the airplane ticket to Askew was all that we knew and if that that was all, KU would have gotten a slap in the wrist and nothing more. It did violate NCAA rules but I would give him a pass on that. The other things that went on that we did not know, at least I did not, until recently were considerably more serious and apparently KU almost got the death penalty. I would have not agreed with it or given him a pass on that then or now. For a long time I thought that the NCAA shafted KU but now it is clear KU got lucky.
Based on what he did at UCLA and SMU, who both got much greater sanctions than KU, we can safely infer that Larry Brown, as good a coach as he is, he is not a manager that plays by the rules and breaks them freely and let’s someone else pick up the pieces.
As I mentioned before, he is still a great coach but his off the field shenanigans greatly diminish his overall status.
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I was more disturbed when the sanctions came out in October 1988 that the committee explained that the death penalty had been considered, that KU knew it was considered when appearing before the committee, and that the committee was disturbed that KU diminished the violations during the hearing. The committee explained that the dp was not imposed for several reasons, first, the original violations from 1983 were football not basketball. Second, the staff involved in the new violations was no longer at KU. A third reason was that the violations occurred only in a short time in 1986.
So you might not have been as suspicious as me, but I was disgusted. (Maybe it has to do with the fact that my work back then involved people who didn’t take very seriously their compliance obligations.)
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@KUSTEVE “Bill has never been in trouble.”
Not directly, but we did lose a scholarship and a few official visits due to over $5,000 in illicit benefits being provided to then-recruit Darnell by a KU booster, including transportation to an NCAA tourney game and failure to monitor JR Giddens free tickets given to them. KU self-reported the violations and DJ had to sit out 9 games, as well as pay back the benefits.
The tickets were not illegal, but the NCAA said if staff kept better track of who received tickets KU would have known of the relationship with the booster previously.
Bill and Co took responsibility for the problem without acting persecuted, which is Larry’s victimization persona. Had KU not self-reported, a failure to ensure institutional control finding seems possible.
As for Askew’s situation, sure, mitigating circumstances. But it was a clear violation, permission from the NCAA was never sought, the coach was involved, and he had no excuse and no remorse, which almost cost us dearly.
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@mayjay I defended brown for 25 years, until it was apparent his methods were indefensible. I’m still not going to cast aside the achievements of that team, because as far as I am concerned, Calvin, Ron, Danny and company earned their place in KU history.
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If a KState coach Jack Gardner, whom I never heard of, with a resume like this can make the HOF then I have no problem with Bill Self Being in the Hall. National Coach of the Year (1970); three Big Seven titles (Kansas State); five Skyline Conference titles (Utah); coached NABC East-West All-Star (1953, 1960, 1964). There’s all kinds of non championship winning coaches in the HOF like Ray Meyer, Guy Lewis etc.
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Bill Self on Larry Brown: I learned more from him in nine months than I learned from probably everyone else combined.
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@BShark Good read.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@JayHawkFanToo Whether LB did it right or wrong, he did rescue us from the Ted Owens abyss. He gave us a title, and paved the way for the hire of the century … Roy Williams. But the Self way is the far, far better way.
Maybe Bob Fredrickson deserves our kudos? He has my eternal gratitude.
Great call, giving Bob Fredrickson kudos!
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Perfect post to fit in here. I (and others) may sound like we don’t see Larry as a positive. I think all of us in here see Larry as a positive and his stay at Kansas was a positive, and will remain a positive in the future.
Bill surely learned a heck of a lot from Larry. I know he totally respects Larry and holds him in high regards.
Larry should be considered in the Top 5 of all basketball coaches, worldwide, pro and college…
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@drgnslayr @HighEliteMajor Thank you for the reminder of Bob Frederick (no suffix). His leaving in the early 2000’s (“voluntarily” after the fball program did not get better) let Al Bohl in the door, resulting in Roy exiting through that same door. Died in a bicycling accident, 2009. RIP, Bob, and thanks from our Jayhawk hearts.
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Did you rob Bill’s family photo album? Great pic as usual @wrwlumpy
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Imagine going back in time at the time of that photo and telling Bill he would, one day, coach at Kansas as a HOFr!
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@wrwlumpy nice list. Switch out Perry Ellis for Darrell Arthur, since it is such an exclusive list. Cannot leave off Josh Jackson, absolutely the best frosh that Self has ever had, anywhere. Only Joel Embiid is in same category. Josh meant just as much to last year’s team as Frank did.
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@Lulufulu “crazy Shiite”, lol. Some peeps in iran or iraq just took offense…now u dont want to make them mad…
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@Crimsonorblue22 Ha! So much for Self being an Eddie Sutton protege. I think he took elements from Sutton, but learned the most from Larry. Plus, modern rules (not 2008 rules), wont allow the Sutton/Izzo 55pt bruiser ball games. Now its gotta be pretty ball, ala unc-ACC style. We’ll just bring our own 7ft 280 lb wrecking ball, by way of Africa…lets start, then crash this finesse party…
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Guys, you gotta check it out.- - - -Awsome video about Coach Self and his accomplishments as he is about to be inducted to the Hall of fame, on the 247 sports site gotta love it, . - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Self pre-induction NBA network interview.
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Can’t believe all the past players that were there!
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We are very lucky to have a coach like Bill Self. I remember having that feeling that Roy could never replace Larry after he took over the program, and I felt the same way when Bill replaced Roy. But they both did amazing, and we have been on a great streak for a long time.
Here’s a good example of a humble man:
“The Lord has blessed me and my family beyond measure,” Self said. " There is no way an average player from Oklahoma would be standing before you tonight if his handprint wasn’t all over my life. I will never take this honor for granted, and I will be more humble now than ever to occupy an office on Naismith Drive."
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@KUSTEVE AWESOME QUOTE
