Seven Point Fix: Free Your Mind
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@HighEliteMajor This sounds like seven points taken from a certain coach that just played in the NC game…cough, cough…Dang it
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Don’t you think going zone would make it even harder to play at a quicker pace?
A lot of our runouts come off turnovers in the half court. We would probably force fewer turnovers playing zone unless we are really active. Like other posters have said, I’m skeptical that our coaches would teach a solid zone that generates the same defensive pressure we generate with m2m.
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@drgnslayr - “And every team is unique and strategy has to fit their uniqueness so they can become most effective.”
With a system coach, talent adapts to system. It is a key consideration in why, possibly, we don’t seem to get the most out of our talent.
Regarding zone, I have the following thoughts on the comments above:
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Shifting to zone primarily, or full time, would have likely been the best move for the 2013-14 Hawks. I struggle with how zone could have been worse than what we saw. If we are to worry about the development of our man to man defense for the next season, we are thus discounting the value of “this” season. We had national championship caliber talent, and holes to mask. @jayhawk12 questioned the point of being a zone team for one season – the point in being a zone team for one season is to win that season, plain and simple. What gives the team on the floor the best chance? I do concede that perhaps Self tried zone in practice and thought it would be a worse disaster. But Self never said that in any interview, or on Hawk Talk.
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I don’t advocate playing zone primarily unless it’s necessary with Self as coach. But if Self wants to play hard nosed man to man, he better recruit those type of players. Zone is a viable defense that you can win with. But certainly, incorporating zone in our scheme is realistic. @jayhawk12 notes Self’s record. I go to national titles. 11 seasons, one title. I also look at teams that have won titles. They have played zone more than “a few possessions each game.”
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@icthawkfan316 hit on the point that concerns me most – the ability to passionately teach zone defense. “My feeling is we would probably need to bring someone else on staff that has an expertise in this area to get a team that plays a good zone defense. Otherwise, I fear we’d be Baylor 2.0.” — that is squarely on point. With a normal Self team, using it as a change up is probably all that is really needed. But we have to recruit guys that fit that man to man scheme – Tharpe doesn’t. Ellis doesn’t appear to fit it.
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Regarding pace, @jayhawk12 questioned whether you could increase pace with zone. Actually, zone makes it easier. You can play at a much quicker pace playing zone when you incorporate trapping and pressure. The 1-3-1 can be the most aggressive defense (half court trap), or a pack it back and make them shoot kind of defense. Lead into the 1-3-1 with the 3/4 court 2-2-1 that @VailHawk mentioned, and you have chaos – and the potential to create the scattered play that we were the victims of multiple times this season. The trapping and pressure increase pace. But you can do this, too, with good man principles. Zone, though, doesn’t necessarily slow pace.
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@crimsonorblue22 - the coach you speak of was a wise man. Too many times folks play zone and think it’s a time to relax. Excellent man principles translate directly to zone. I think particularly on body angle. You make an excellent point, and it’s why teams should be able to flow between both defenses. Stanford did it quite well a month ago, I would say. Where zones are exposed is when defenders play flat – great example are our back line screen plays for lobs against the zone. Self takes advantage of defenders playing flat. If teams play zone with the tenacity of man, that’s a tough nut to crack.
The idea that you can’t do both effectively should be completely discarded. We have seen multiple teams be effective running both, most recently Stanford in their win over the Jayhawks. Simply discarding zone defense is a short-sighted, dogmatic approach that puts KU at a disadvantage. And we’re at that disadvantage because Self won’t approach it with an open mind – like many, many other coaches do. And like other national title winning coaches do.
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@HighEliteMajor In regards to needing to recruit guys that fit a M2M scheme, I agree, although I don’t know that Self could have foresaw Perry being as bad as he is. Most freshman are going to be bad. Defense just isn’t a skill that seems to be cultivated enough in high school. But you take a guy like Perry, who is athletic and has a good work ethic, and you’d have to figure he’d progress into at least an average defender.
With Tharpe, let’s be honest, Self isn’t recruiting him period if there weren’t other misses on the recruiting trail. At least not with the idea in mind that he would be the starting point guard at any time during his career.
As to the point that both myself and @jayhawk12 made about the validity of teaching zone for one year, I don’t think I am discounting the value of this season. Did we really have a national championship caliber team? We all wanted to think that during the season. We thought this because of the tough schedule we played, because we won the Big 12 again with it being discussed as one of (if not the) toughest conferences in the country this year. Problem was, for all our tough schedule our only marquee win was against a Duke team in November. The same Duke team that got upset by Mercer. And the Big 12 wasn’t all it was cracked up to be, although injuries to Embiid & Niang probably tripped up the league’s two best teams. So I don’t know if we were NC caliber. I’m not taking into account the Embiid injury, as that couldn’t have been predicted at the outset, but our guard play just wasn’t good enough, at least not playing Tharpe and having Selden paired as the 2 along side him. The ball handling and decision making just wasn’t there I fear. We’re probably playing beyond the round of 32, but I don’t think the switch to zone in and of itself would have elevated us to a national championship caliber team. Now could enough things have been done to make it that caliber of a team? Possibly. Had Self opened up to all 7 of your suggestions (which seems unlikely to happen within a single season. Perhaps 3 or 4 out of 7 to start). But with those suggestions I don’t see the answer to what I think was our biggest limitation, and that is improved PG play. I’ve been pretty steadfast all off-season that until that is addressed, everything else is secondary.
At any rate, given that I don’t think we had the personnel to compete for a NC this past year, I think it is valuing the season more to use it to teach your young core of players the core philosophical principles, namely M2M defense. As much as we’d like to think that every season is NC or bust, there are going to be seasons here and there that are more like stepping stones. Much like we talk about sacrificing games within a season to improve the chance for success in March and needing to view the season as a campaign to the tournament, there are going to be seasons that need to be viewed as part of a campaign for developing a national championship team down the line. I hate that reality, but we’ve talked before about how we would take an NIT season (like Kentucky last year) if it meant a return trip to the Final 4 the next.
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@icthawkfan316 Do you think you can’t do both in practice? I think other teams do. UK was younger and obviously did.
I do think you can, but clearly, if you’re learning zone with limited practice time, you are sacrificing valuable PT that could be used getting better at man full time. Again, though, we can’t do what UK did?
I firmly believe we had a national title caliber team. No doubt in my mind.
While I value point guard play highly, the issues are broader than just that. To focus too much on personnel, which is really excellent top to bottom, is to downplay what has really caused many of our tourney failures. Point guard play didn’t lose us the game to Stanford.
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1-2. I will agree that zone may have been more appropriate with last year’s team than with others. It would have kept Tarik on the floor more earlier in the year and minimized the poor rotations. While our guards did not do a great job staying in front of their man last year, our poor help made that problem worse. The first half of our home game against TCU is a great example. No way their point guard should score that much and get into the paint so easily.
We could have switched to zone for Tharpe and Ellis but, Self did not recruit any of his players for their ability to play zone. If you switch to zone for two people, the abilities of everyone else are mis-used. And they may struggle just as much.
I think Tharpe’s main problems are bigger than Perry’s. Tharpe lacks lateral quickness and probably the discipline to commit consistently. I think Perry struggles more with vision and court awareness. He has to do a better job seeing the ball at all times and being aware of court position. Where I notice the quickness issue with Perry is when he gets switched guarding smaller (quicker) players and when he guards off-ball, away from the basket. He’s also vulnerable defending in transition.
If you want to go with a zone that is active and traps 3/4 court, some of the same issues remain. You need guards that are quick out front (and ideally long) and you need the guys behind to have great anticipation. If you commit to zone for Perry and Naadir, that zone is probably most effective as a pack it in, preventative zone. I don’t get the sense you are excited about this type of scheme.
Last, you point to national championships. I would only say that not all champions play more zone. Kentucky rarely plays zone. With Connecticut, Florida, Syracuse and Louisville, yes that is true. If we want to become more like any of those teams defensively in terms of how we use the zone, then I think Florida is most appropriate. But the type of players we recruit are more similar to Kentucky than those at the other schools. Self and Calipari almost always wrestle over the same top players.
With regard to this year, a zone would not have meant beating Stanford. JoJo’s injury was huge because of when it happened - late in the season. We didn’t have enough time to adjust. Michigan State had constant injury problems this year and never got time to play much together as a healthy unit before the tournament. They lost earlier than expected. Arizona had a late season injury and was never quite the same. KU’s injury was later in the season than both of those teams. JoJo was just as if not more important to our team than any single injury to Arizona and Michigan State. We’ve had early exits in past years but I can’t remember a year when we had a late season injury as significant as JoJo’s.
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My point about using M2M principles in the the zone is, if they can’t keep their man in front of them in man, they won’t be able to in a zone either. Our rim protecter saved us, many times this year, when he got hurt we couldn’t cover our mistakes. I’m sure we have all heard, Self doesn’t recruit defensive players, he teaches it after they get here. An asst coach told me most of the kids come from programs that have zero knowledge on any defensive drills or terms. I still believe w/the excessive whistle blowing put us at an disadvantage. Does Syracuse ever switch to man? What zones would you play against Heslip, Forte or ISU? I’m not a zone fan except to throw some different looks.
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Kansas Jayhawks Basketball will be just fine. I will not make myself crazy over things I cannot change. Coach Self will continue to do what he sees fit. I am good with that. I am looking forward to next years team and I could care less what other teams are doing. I am with Kansas Basketball win or lose. Another case of indirect fire.
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@Crimsonorblue22 You say that if “… they can’t keep their man in front of them in man, they won’t be able to in a zone either.”
I respectfully disagree with that. Zone is premised, obviously, on covering an area. If you get a blow by on a wing, or out front, you have immediate, built in help. Secondly, you usually always have a nearby help defender.
Obviously, you have to have some level of ability at keeping your man in front of you. But you can hide guys, as you know.
Yes, Syracuse does go to man every so often.
Personal preference, I would play 1-3-1 nearly all the time, unless my personnel strongly dictated otherwise. I’d play it against Forte, Heslip, and ISU. You account for shooters in zone. You fear shooters. You shade shooters. You track shooters. Watch Syracuse. It’s beautiful thing. Boeheim is a defensive genius with his 2-3. But shooters beat any defense, right? Not just a zone. But they can kill a zone, no doubt.
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@KansasComet Come on, make yourself crazy. What would you do if you had a magic wand?
One strategic item that you would like coach Self to do – just one?
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@HighEliteMajor One strategic thing that I’d like to see from Coach Self - free season tickets for all KUBuckets regulars.
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@jayhawk12 How was our defense last season?
-Respectfully, you wouldn’t “pack it in” as a preventative zone. That makes no sense to me. Why do you think we would have had to do that? And you’re right, I don’t like a “pack it in” zone, unless matchup wise, it was the best option.
-See my response to @Crimsonorblue22 - you reduce your “issues” defensively. If you have a point guard who continually compromises your defense by permitting penetration, it’s over. It was over. We got killed. And if you have a post player who can’t handle guys on the block that are of any size, you’re dead in man. You have to always have help. Zone gives you help.
-And I agree, I don’t think a zone defense would have beaten Stanford. You’re right there. It was our lack of an effective zone offense that doomed us. We didn’t need Embiid (or Wiggins) for that matter, to beat Stanford if we ran an effective zone offense. They isolated our weak guys, and took away our strong offensive players (Ellis and Wiggins). You would agree that we should have beaten Stanford with or without Embiid, right?
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@nuleafjhawk you would be fun to go to a game with!
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@HighEliteMajor There is so much more to it than just Coach Self. Your end result appears to be winning a six game tournament that often includes teams with losing records. Coach Self is not at fault for that. He puts together a winning team year in and year out. I am amazed by the run of success that we have had. The only thing I would change is the format of the tournament. I don’t believe teams should be rewarded with a tournament invite, based on winning a conference tournament. Strategically no, however I do firmly believe that the best players should play. Case in point, if Frankamp was killing Tharpe in practice (which I don’t know if it’s true or not) then he should have gotten playing time over him.
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@KansasComet Does Coach Self get credit for the successes? Do you credit him for the 2008 title?
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@HighEliteMajor we did have glimpses of good D, Duke, Texas at home, OU at home, WV at home, Baylor. Our zone offense was good against Baylor. The only time I like a zone is against a quick team that gets to the rack easily. Once you get by one man in a zone, the zone breaks down and should be easy to score on. I like the zone to keep teams out of the paint. If they have good 3 pt shooters (plural) IMO, zones are worthless, unless a box and 1 or triangle and 2, but for short periods. Seeing the games when we played good M2M tells me we were capable of doing it ALL the time! I call it heart! Always respect!
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@HighEliteMajor ease up on comet! I like his/her responses! So do you think Self should or shouldn’t get credit! It’s a team, he’s part of it!
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@HighEliteMajor Yes, he put the team together. There was some luck involved in the 2008 title run. Davidson had the game winning shot in the air.
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@Crimsonorblue22 That’s pretty funny … the one time we played good zone offense was against Baylor. You see cause and effect, I’m sure.
Personally, I think we could have played sufficiently effective man to man if Tharpe just never played. He was the worst defensive player I have ever seen at KU under Self, in the second half of the season.
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@HighEliteMajor I don’t remember any teams playing zone other than Baylor, only mentioned that cause we played good D on them. They didn’t stay in it to long cause it didn’t work. Not funny to me! Who beside Stanford do you recall us struggling against a zone. I don’t remember.
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@KansasComet But Self gets no credit for strategy, scheme, leadership, etc.? I would say that he gets a huge amount of credit for that.
On luck, just throw that out the window. The bigger your sample size, the less it means. Luck is just probabilities and possibilities. And many times, you create your own luck. When your sample size increases, it’s a discernible pattern.
Trey Burke’s shot was lucky by many accounts. But if we foul before he shoots, are we victims of a lucky shot? Same with Calipari and Chalmers’ shot. You create luck many, many times, or situations where luck can beat you.
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@Crimsonorblue22 I thought you were referring to Scott Drew’s inability to coach a competent zone D, as @icthawkfan316 referred to (and as has become legendary).
Many teams played zone against us – it destroyed us early, Villanova, Florida, Colorado, etc. Then we saw it quite a bit during the league season. I recall Texas killing us with zone at Austin. They mixed it up.
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Here’s an article I saw on Steve Fisher switching to a 1-3-1 zone this season when needed – as firm a man to man guy as there is. Its a great commentary on flexibility. This is all that I would ask of coach Self, or of any coach.
http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2014/Mar/09/sdsu-basketball-zone-defense-fisher-hutson/
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@HighEliteMajor I thought floridas press killed us, more than half court zone. Don’t you think we improved from those early season losses against zones?
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@HighEliteMajor I do like a 1-3-1 w/wigs on top, super long athlete.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Right, Florida pressed, and slipped back into a 1-3-1 much of the game.
I do think we improved vs. the zone. Marginally vs. the press.
See – 1-3-1. Wigs up top, allows you to hide your point guard on the back line or weak wing side depending on match-up. Fit us to a T. Right on there.
Heck, Self likes the 3-2. Go Tharpe/Wigs/Selden up top, bigs in back. Trap wing and box. Matchup on all high % shooters. Immediate closouts everywhere. Roll behind closeout. Has to be better than 150th or whatever in points per game allowed. Has to be.
How many breakout dunks does Wigs have from up top, middle on a 3-2?
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@HighEliteMajor how many guys can we hide?
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@HighEliteMajor you asked a question on successes. Next you import strategy, scheme, and leadership? It was a yes or no question? Right?
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If the problem is the dribble penetration into the paint, then a “pack it in” zone is preventative simply because it limits open space in the middle and increases it on the perimeter. It also limits the amount of space that you ask your most vulnerable people (Perry, Naadir) to cover.
Our defense was not good last season, but it wasn’t the initial penetration per se that hurt. With Embiid in the back, isolated dribble penetration can always be dealt with. What hurt was after the initial dribble penetration. The kick outs, the dump offs, the secondary drives. We were terrible stopping what happened after the initial penetration.
Yes, “zone gives you help.” So does man. When the ball is on the wing, there are just as many people in the paint with man as with zone, at least when played effectively. I’m not convinced a zone gives you more help than a good man to man does. What role do you see Perry and Naadir playing in zone that addresses their man to man limitations?
As an aside, Perry does not challenge shots above the rim but he is OK on-ball when he’s guarding his own position as a 4.
Yes, we should have beaten Stanford, just like Arizona should have beaten every Pac-12 team after their injury. Michigan State was more talented than many of the teams they lost to, too. The injury to Embiid counts for something. That injury happened at the very end of the season! The offense was stagnant in part because guys weren’t used to playing together without Embiid on the court. Tarik is great, but he is a very different type of player than Embiid. Traylor was great, but he played many more minutes. Those types of things affect other players and their comfort on the court.
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@HighEliteMajor BIG QUESTION: You’ve done your usual outstanding job in presenting stale-prevention playstyle evolution. But my only question is this: Could the lack of execution, especially the defensive fail-jobs by Naadir and Ellis be a logic error in our supposition that “the system is bad” or “needs revision”? What if Self simply makes a g-dd–n example out of Naa & says “you dont play if you cant play D”. Just like he did with Elijah Johnson, who couldnt keep his man in front of him (compared to Brady). Maybe its time for Naa to ‘ride pine’, while better defense-instincts Mason and Frankamp get to play 20-25mpg as each other’s subs?
System breakdown needs to be traced to its root cause, right? I hate to sound like your Self soundbite “we didnt execute…”, but the fact is, when we do execute his system to a national top10 level, we win in astonishing fashion. And when we dont execute that way, even in a single game (think UNI, VCU…), we are ripe to get beat, because we are playing below our system’s requirements.
General comment for those new to KU and Self basketball: SelfBall Principles:
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Play D. Top10 FG% D. D always travels. Keeps you in a game when your offense is struggling.
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WIN the possession battle: limit t.o.'s, get steals, win the rebounds.
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High%looks: Its why we will always be inside-first (but just as a general philosophy). The lob-dunk is a ridiculously high% play, which Im sure Stan VanGundy figured out after his shock at seeing an actual college team dedicate actual practice time to several plays for lob dunks. Skilled bigs and stickback bigs are high% looks. As is an “open look 3, by a trusted shooter”.
I would like to go a bit counter-thread here, just for the sake of advancing our overall discussion…and actually defend Bill Self by saying he is NOT as rigid as he is made out to be. Evidence:
-Abandons some of set offense in 2012, as TRob doubled, and Withey not polished enough to create, and has Tyshawn “just drive it”. Bill Self went dribble drive. Either he did it calculatingly, or Tyshawn just got so good at it along with a high70sFT%, that we survived with that playstyle. It suited his personnel. -We do kick out for 3att often enough to have decent 3att for most games. Clearly he has NOT told players to NOT shoot, as we saw Mason try them early and often, then become more selective. I think Self’s msg on 3s is dont force them up early in a possession, especially if rebounders arent set…that’s just playing the percentages/smart basketball. You can of course argue that if we chucked them early and often, we would have the element of surprise, as opposed to the last 6sec of the shot clock, when everybody knows a forced, highpressure 3att is coming. One of the MAIN common issues in the UNI and VCU losses were the dismal KU 3%, and by very trusted senior shooters (Sherron 0-6, Reed 1-7). Sherron had a green light from Day 1, and Reed likely did also. I have NO doubt Jacobsen’s supposed lack of structure in allowing his UNI players to shoot 3s whenever/by whomever made an impression on Self. I mean we saw Mason, Embiid, Ellis, Frankamp, Selden, Greene, Wiggins, AW3 all attempt 3s. Now the harder part: recall that many of those looks were early, but that is OK if the shooter is wide open. Open-look 3s have ALWAYS been accepted and encouraged by Self. I’ve seen that throughout the years, different sets of players, to realize it IS a part of his system, and he doesnt discourage open-look 3 attempts. You cannot face savant shooters like Heslip, Forte, Keiton Page, Kevin Durant and not think that you couldnt/shouldnt “free up” your own shooters. I think Rush and Chalmers always had the greenlight, just as frosh Sherron did since day 1 in 2007. Even RussRob had the greenlight, hitting the opening KU points with a corner3 vs UNC in the Final4. You know EJ and Tyshawn always had greenlights, as did Releford. Teahan also had a green light. Selby certainly did.-Experimenting with zones and trapping. I think Self may be more rigid on his m2m defense, as “you gotta get really good at one thing” (which we did not achieve this season). Duke is also a decidedly m2m team. With all the limits on practice time by the NCAA, it is a very real decision coaches have to make as to how to spend their limited practice time. But clearly we DO have zone and trapping “pkgs” to use situationally. Now if Self wants to throw a changeup D every 3 possessions, all game long, that’s his perogative.
So, feel free to armchair QB any coach, anywhere, anytime. Me personally, I just want to see solid, tough, efficient play and improvement in all the major areas, as by KU standards, this last season was THE worst team KU has had since 2006, statistically speaking.
Who knows what Self has up his sleeve for 2014-15, other than opening a can of Cliff-X-Tuff on everybody…and lets not forget K.Oubre, who might be a god-fearing kid, but fears nothing else, as he tried to dunk on Cliff in the final seconds of crunchtime, winning the game on the FT line. We need that attitude. Works best in Self’s system. We know this already…
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@ralster great post! Only disagreement would be on Conner’s defense. Pretty shaky, along w/a few others! I have a hard time figuring why it was so bad.
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@ralster You are right on point with your question: “But my only question is this: Could the lack of execution, especially the defensive fail-jobs by Naadir and Ellis be a logic error in our supposition that “the system is bad” or “needs revision”?”
I am not suggesting that man to man is a “system fail.” With the 2013-14 Jayhawks, man to man defense netted a subpar result.
The fail-jobs by Tharpe and Ellis lead to the conclusion that the system has to be more flexible. If you have square pegs, it is a “system fail” to continue to pound them into round holes. That is really my conclusion.
I simply suggest that Self open his mind to the possibility that strict man to man is not the only answer all of the time.
However, I do disagree with your statement: “We do kick out for 3att often enough to have decent 3att for most games. Clearly he has NOT told players to NOT shoot.”
Self plainly has told players not to shoot. Ever see Greene turn down an open look three? Many times. Why? Because it was early in the shot clock. A trained dog on a leash. Do the wrong thing, you get yanked – like a dog on a leash. Pretty soon, you are skiddish and you won’t think of doing it. Self wants the three point shot to be a later option to getting a “better” shot. The “feed the post” mantra. You don’t disagree with that, right?
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@jayhawk12 “Our defense was not good last season, but it wasn’t the initial penetration per se that hurt.”
We are not on the same page. That statement ignores the entire season. You conclude the problem was that “We were terrible stopping what happened after the initial penetration.”
Penetration creates opportunity, passes, getting fouled. EJ, Taylor, even McLemore were much better in stopping penetration. CF and Mason were better than Tharpe. You simply can’t expose your post players to having to bail out your point guard who can’t stop penetration. You get fouled up – see Black. Many of those were after Tharpe’s guy got in the lane. If you want to try and explain away that, then I’m sorry, it’s hard to discuss it. You ask any coach what’s more important, he’ll say stopping the penetration in the first place. You will have a certain % of times when there is penetration of course, but you can’t give it up over and over. When you do you are creating too many opportunities. It’s hoops 101.
I read your last paragraph and it reeks of “apologist.” With that approach, you can explain away everything. I say very firmly that the Embiid injury means nothing … zero … when playing Stanford. We should beat Stanford in that situation. Period. But we got outcoached, plain and simple. Dawkins had the superior game plan. His defenders contested nearly every shot, as Self conceded. We did not have an answer to get open shots. Game, set, match. You are right, “we should have beaten Stanford.” To fall back on the Embiid injury is embarrassing, to be honest.
No Embiid vs. Florida, or another stout team? Sure. Makes sense. Not Stanford.
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@KansasComet I had asked “Does Coach Self get credit for the successes? Do you credit him for the 2008 title?”
You had said yes, he put the team together.
I then responded by asking if he gets credit for scheme, strategy, etc.
What I mean is, wouldn’t he then get the blame too for failures? It’s legit to say he shares the blame, right?
I have not seen anyone dispute that Self got outcoached vs. Stanford. It happens. Sometimes getting outcoached is having the wrong personnel on the floor. Sometimes not adjusting. Against Stanford, Self permitted Stanford to execute its game plan without any real strategic interference. Best he can do is try to improve like everyone else in life.
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@ralster Thank you! That sums up my thoughts. Very well said. I think there are some that want to fix what ain’t broke. Looking forward to next season!
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@HighEliteMajor I believe he shows up to the press conferences after every game. Win or lose. It starts with the Head Coach. Now, for my question. Is it right to say “I don’t want Wiggins”, and then say “forget everything bad I said about Wiggins”, only to flip again when the end result is not realized? That’s not cool. But somehow, I am sure that is Coach Self’s fault for recruiting a one and done?
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I’m not saying initial penetration doesn’t matter. Of course it does. Yes, it is the most important thing. BUT reducing all of the defensive issues to Tharpe’s failure to prevent dribble penetration absolves everyone else of responsibility. There are no binarys here. Other people are somewhat responsible. The timing of Embiid’s injury mattered some. You have to acknowledge those things.
Defensive statistics are team statistics. They measure your ability to play together effectively as a group. FG % defense most directly measures shot quality. As soon as someone gets by Tharpe, it becomes the team responsibility to rotate. Failure to challenge a shot after that point falls on someone else. Failure to fulfill that responsibility means that others are - to some extent- responsible. In that way they contribute to poor FG% defense.
Of course the guard that allows penetration makes it harder for everyone else to play good defense. Is it fair? no. But it is the reality. And it is the responsibility of everyone to help. In addition to being a weaker on-ball team than others Self has coached, we were also weaker making rotations. We had six freshmen come in. 5 of them played significant minutes. In retrospect, it’s no wonder they didn’t play together as well as the 2011 team.
As an aside, I agree that Tharpe’s defense hurt Black more than others. But again, you can’t absolve Tarik completely. Perry and JoJo are better at challenging shots without fouling. That is not Tarik’s strength. Naadir increased Tarik’s exposure to fouls, but Tarik still committed each and every one of them.
It is clear we disagree about the importance of Embiid’s injury.
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Do you think you can’t do both in practice? I think other teams do. UK was younger and obviously did
@HighEliteMajor I absolutely think you can do both. But your point was that we go “all in” on zone, which I took to mean we practice that instead of M2M. So say in a season we spend 90-95% of the time practicing M2M (which is my guess as to how much time we spend on M2M), going “all in” on zone would mean spending 90-95% on zone in practice. That is what I wouldn’t want to do. I’m on record as wanting more zone, but not ever as the primary defense taught.
And no, PG play wasn’t the primary reason we lost to Stanford, although Self stubbornly going with Tharpe for far too many minutes in the second half certainly contributed. But to get to the national championship? I could see if Self abandoned Tharpe all together, then and only then would PG play not be an obstacle that we eventually would be unable to overcome.
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" @drgnslayr - “And every team is unique and strategy has to fit their uniqueness so they can become most effective.”
With a system coach, talent adapts to system. It is a key consideration in why, possibly, we don’t seem to get the most out of our talent. "
Over my lifetime, I bet I’ve had 100 or so arguments about this subject. You are right, system coaches force their system. And they should recruit specific players that fit the system and know what they are signing up for.
I believe in it to the point where a team can improve if you adjust to what players you have. At that point, you should do whatever you can to produce the best outcomes. This is especially important with OADs… because making them endure bad play won’t teach them anything they can later come back and use because in a few months they are gone.
Seems impossible to expect consistent positive results from non-4-year players if the coach is going to be a pure system coach. Self definitely fit the description over his history. But in recent years he has adapted his own rules to fit situations… primarily, OADs.
My question: will he continue to come off his rigid coaching style? Myles Turner will not fit in his hi/lo except on occasion. If Bill wants Myles to become a Jayhawk, doesn’t he realize Myles skills primarily involve him facing the basket, not back to the basket? He would do Myles a great disservice by forcing him to play most of his time back to the basket. It won’t help him get drafted high, and it won’t be his game in the NBA.
And then… how would Bill ever hope to land a player like Thon Maker? He’s preparing to go after him big time.
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@drgnslayr Turner said he liked Selfs hi lo, he could play both.
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Kansas Turner says: “I like the high-low system that Coach [Bill] Self runs, due to the fact that I can play both the high and the low. Playing in that system with Cliff and a couple of other bigs over there, that would be pretty cool to be a part of.”
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@HighEliteMajor Totally agree that Self ought to show more flexibility…I was simply trying to point out that he seems to show more flexibility lately (but definitely didnt convert over to predominant zone).
2 ideas:
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Maybe Self didnt have to be so flexible in the past, simply because the execution of TheSystem was adequate, and gave better results? (why change what already is working?)
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The other idea is that if Self ever went to zone-D predominantly, and starts practicing it–> what happens to the young’uns being brought up in the System? They start having to focus on zone-D (in the limited practice time the NCAA gives us)…and in 1 season, we have altered the developmental ‘pipeline’…and basically turned our whole program into a zone-D program? That’s a bigtime ramification, HEM, and my friendly thought is that its why Self wont wholesale change his base D, as that will alter the teachings to 2-3 years worth of kids?
On another note, count me “IN” on the push-the-pace tempo forced by quickly inbounding the ball by anyone off a made bucket. It would give a few more chances for our athletes to get out in transition, which we always seem to be waiting to do…but the D sucked and we hardly got steals, strips. The glimmer of hope was when Embiid blocked something, we still were able to take it and run with it. Kids do that in h.s. I agree it would give us another factor to control the game. Put some more fouls on the opponent…
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This season, simply because of the huge influx of newbies, we simply were NOT good statistically in key areas. Our FG% defense sucked like a KS tornado. Our 2nd shot defense was awful. We didnt have over half of 2008’s offense installed and usable and well-rehearsed. Remember, the 2008 experienced squad absolutely demolished zone-defenses…(same coach), what was the difference?
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@ralster nice posts!
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@HighEliteMajor I’ll dispute it for you. Stanford 0-9 from 3 point range. Zero percent. Could Coach Self’s defense possibly do any better than that? By the way, we knocked down 5. Andrew Wiggins did try to get involved. 4 turnovers, and I believe they were all traveling violations. He scored on at least one of those, basket disallowed however. That’s another potential 12 points of offense right there. The quick whistle stifled him, not Stanford defense. 58 shot attempts and only 18 Free Throw attempts for Kansas, 47 shot attempts and 26 Free Throw attempts for Stanford. We missed a lot of layups. How is that Coach Self’s fault? I am sure this team has worked on layups all season long. It happens? 15 fouls for Stanford, 22 for Kansas. Was the game called evenly? I was there, and I don’t think so. Every single time KU tried to get something going, a whistle changed the momentum. Now, keep in mind that when Coach Self makes decisions in the heat of battle, with thousands of screaming fans, that has an immediate impact on the game. He is not afforded the opportunity to go grab a beer, or a shot while complaining to his significant other about the state of Kansas Basketball and what needs to happen. His life is not that easy. He is the Coach of the Kansas Jayhawks and does a damn good job at it. Switching to a zone defense? If it was that simple…
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" @drgnslayr Turner said he liked Selfs hi lo, he could play both."
I think he’s been sold the idea that Cliff will anchor the hi/lo post and he’ll see some movement around it… and he will get a bit of it just to build his tool box.
Remember Jeff Withey? Myles is a lighter version of Jeff. Even in Jeff’s senior year, he couldn’t do much in the hi/lo. I’m not saying Myles can’t do it or can’t learn to do it, but he won’t be getting drafted in the No Boys Allowed league to play with his back to the basket. He’d have to put on 50 lbs of solid muscle (mostly in his lower body) to dominate in the league doing that.
And why should he be doing that? He should be out exploring all areas on the floor and learn to score everywhere. That will be his ticket to the next level, not low post play.
Still… it is a good thing for him to play some low post. Some… limited.
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@drgnslayr hmmm Jeff Withey, sounds familiar!
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He had areas of his game that could stand improving… but, dang, I miss him on D!
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@drgnslayr if it’s the same guy I’m thinking of, he ended this season on a good note! Saw a recent pic, he’s look pretty darn smooth! Great kid, deserves the best!
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I wonder if playing M2M versus zone defense impacts recruiting top tier talent?
Calipari tries to run M2M most of the time, and just keeps zone around to use at times.
Playing M2M in your one year of college seems like a smart thing to do since it’s about all you play in the NBA. Though, in reality, they often play a hybrid defense that hedges away into zone areas.
@HighEliteMajor - what are your ideas on that? I know you would like us to recruit just below those potential OADs. Obviously, Self seems to like to recruit those players now. What do you think… would it impact Self’s success at recruiting those players?
Anyone else have an opinion on that?
Could it be that now Self is committed to nailing all these top players and it is also shackling him into playing only M2M?
Everyone in here knows I’m not a Calipari fan… but he does seem to be learning more flexibility with his game. Perhaps more than Self.
Maybe it is just the fact that Calipari has been landing these top players more often and so has had more time to adjust around having all the short-term players.
Funny… it looks like Cal will only lose Randle and Young for next year. Kentucky appears to be the team to beat. But they will be vulnerable to any team that can manufacture a guard tandem like UCONN had. That’s what it will take to stop Kentucky… unless they run into bad luck, like injuries.
