@HighEliteMajor

If Self is never going to make a serious commitment to zone, then I don’t see the point in becoming a zone team for one season. It’s not an effective strategy in the long-term. I’d prefer to use the zone more, but only as a change up. Never for more than one or two possessions in a row. This is similar to how Billy Donovan uses it. If you want to rely on zone extensively, then you have to spend extensive time teaching it. Extensive time teaching zone will take away from time spent improving man-to-man defense. I’d rather be really good with man (like we normally are) than kind of good at both.

We’ll be better next season in man because we stuck with it all season. If we had switched to zone for an extended period, next season’s transition to man would be more difficult.

Self’s defensive record speaks for itself. I don’t see the value in using zone for more than a few possessions each game.

Agree on B-mac and Wiggins.

Other particular dunks that stand out:

Chalmers one handed dunk vs. Georgia tech with the kick follow through.

Brandon Rush from Russel Rob off the backboard against Carolina in the Final Four (elite 8?)

@HighEliteMajor

Don’t you think going zone would make it even harder to play at a quicker pace?

A lot of our runouts come off turnovers in the half court. We would probably force fewer turnovers playing zone unless we are really active. Like other posters have said, I’m skeptical that our coaches would teach a solid zone that generates the same defensive pressure we generate with m2m.

We also need Turner to help balance the post rotations and improve the interior spacing. Perry needs a longer, defensive minded big to play alongside. Rather than Perry-Cliff, it would work much better if we could play Perry with Turner and Cliff with Landen.

@Virgil_Caine

Self teams also get high marks for efficiency statistics, which would have to popular in the new age of analytics. His first shot field goal defense has been great for many years, but this year KU was one of the top FG% teams as well.

OKC might work well, because they play more with traditional bigs that don’t get a ton of shots away from the basket.

If we go NBA then we have to include Xavier Henry over Jeff Withey. Incredible.

@HighEliteMajor

1-2. I will agree that zone may have been more appropriate with last year’s team than with others. It would have kept Tarik on the floor more earlier in the year and minimized the poor rotations. While our guards did not do a great job staying in front of their man last year, our poor help made that problem worse. The first half of our home game against TCU is a great example. No way their point guard should score that much and get into the paint so easily.

We could have switched to zone for Tharpe and Ellis but, Self did not recruit any of his players for their ability to play zone. If you switch to zone for two people, the abilities of everyone else are mis-used. And they may struggle just as much.

I think Tharpe’s main problems are bigger than Perry’s. Tharpe lacks lateral quickness and probably the discipline to commit consistently. I think Perry struggles more with vision and court awareness. He has to do a better job seeing the ball at all times and being aware of court position. Where I notice the quickness issue with Perry is when he gets switched guarding smaller (quicker) players and when he guards off-ball, away from the basket. He’s also vulnerable defending in transition.

If you want to go with a zone that is active and traps 3/4 court, some of the same issues remain. You need guards that are quick out front (and ideally long) and you need the guys behind to have great anticipation. If you commit to zone for Perry and Naadir, that zone is probably most effective as a pack it in, preventative zone. I don’t get the sense you are excited about this type of scheme.

Last, you point to national championships. I would only say that not all champions play more zone. Kentucky rarely plays zone. With Connecticut, Florida, Syracuse and Louisville, yes that is true. If we want to become more like any of those teams defensively in terms of how we use the zone, then I think Florida is most appropriate. But the type of players we recruit are more similar to Kentucky than those at the other schools. Self and Calipari almost always wrestle over the same top players.

With regard to this year, a zone would not have meant beating Stanford. JoJo’s injury was huge because of when it happened - late in the season. We didn’t have enough time to adjust. Michigan State had constant injury problems this year and never got time to play much together as a healthy unit before the tournament. They lost earlier than expected. Arizona had a late season injury and was never quite the same. KU’s injury was later in the season than both of those teams. JoJo was just as if not more important to our team than any single injury to Arizona and Michigan State. We’ve had early exits in past years but I can’t remember a year when we had a late season injury as significant as JoJo’s.

@HighEliteMajor

If the problem is the dribble penetration into the paint, then a “pack it in” zone is preventative simply because it limits open space in the middle and increases it on the perimeter. It also limits the amount of space that you ask your most vulnerable people (Perry, Naadir) to cover.

Our defense was not good last season, but it wasn’t the initial penetration per se that hurt. With Embiid in the back, isolated dribble penetration can always be dealt with. What hurt was after the initial dribble penetration. The kick outs, the dump offs, the secondary drives. We were terrible stopping what happened after the initial penetration.

Yes, “zone gives you help.” So does man. When the ball is on the wing, there are just as many people in the paint with man as with zone, at least when played effectively. I’m not convinced a zone gives you more help than a good man to man does. What role do you see Perry and Naadir playing in zone that addresses their man to man limitations?

As an aside, Perry does not challenge shots above the rim but he is OK on-ball when he’s guarding his own position as a 4.

Yes, we should have beaten Stanford, just like Arizona should have beaten every Pac-12 team after their injury. Michigan State was more talented than many of the teams they lost to, too. The injury to Embiid counts for something. That injury happened at the very end of the season! The offense was stagnant in part because guys weren’t used to playing together without Embiid on the court. Tarik is great, but he is a very different type of player than Embiid. Traylor was great, but he played many more minutes. Those types of things affect other players and their comfort on the court.

@HighEliteMajor

I’m not saying initial penetration doesn’t matter. Of course it does. Yes, it is the most important thing. BUT reducing all of the defensive issues to Tharpe’s failure to prevent dribble penetration absolves everyone else of responsibility. There are no binarys here. Other people are somewhat responsible. The timing of Embiid’s injury mattered some. You have to acknowledge those things.

Defensive statistics are team statistics. They measure your ability to play together effectively as a group. FG % defense most directly measures shot quality. As soon as someone gets by Tharpe, it becomes the team responsibility to rotate. Failure to challenge a shot after that point falls on someone else. Failure to fulfill that responsibility means that others are - to some extent- responsible. In that way they contribute to poor FG% defense.

Of course the guard that allows penetration makes it harder for everyone else to play good defense. Is it fair? no. But it is the reality. And it is the responsibility of everyone to help. In addition to being a weaker on-ball team than others Self has coached, we were also weaker making rotations. We had six freshmen come in. 5 of them played significant minutes. In retrospect, it’s no wonder they didn’t play together as well as the 2011 team.

As an aside, I agree that Tharpe’s defense hurt Black more than others. But again, you can’t absolve Tarik completely. Perry and JoJo are better at challenging shots without fouling. That is not Tarik’s strength. Naadir increased Tarik’s exposure to fouls, but Tarik still committed each and every one of them.

It is clear we disagree about the importance of Embiid’s injury.

@KansasComet I agree with the explanation of the Stanford game. We missed a lot of bunnies and that’s hard to pin on Self. We actually did adjust in the second half offensively. We were much better getting the ball to the high post to Tarik and Jamari in positions where they had space to get to the rim.

I will disagree a bit with @icthawkfan316. 10-50ish guys are still athletic but there’s a noticeable difference between that level and OAD level talent. I think about the 2011 final against Kentucky. We struggled with length that game too, including T-Rob, missed a ton of short shots. I struggle to remember another KU game where the “athleticism deficit” seemed as big as it did during that game.

Agree about Calipari, though. You could see the recruiting took a toll on him. He can’t keep that up and has said as much.

Selden can’t be a point guard because we have three better point guards on the roster

I agree about Brannen in the sense that it is not an encouraging sign to start on the bench. That being said, I still think he is more important to this team. I’d rank he and Lucas both higher on your power rankings.

I’d put Lucas ahead of Mickelson. Coach talked really highly of Lucas at media day, and Lucas has length that our other bigs don’t. It’s tough to ask him to contribute against Texas and Kentucky if he’s not playing regular minutes. And we will need him in those games. I think if Lucas can rebound as well as Hunter, he beats him out for a rotation spot. In fact, he may also provide more value than Jamari.

Brannen needs to get it together, because we will need his shooting on the floor. In my mind, four starting spots are full - Frank, Wayne, Perry and Cliff. Late night scrimmage aside, this is not a lineup that will demand a lot respect from the perimeter. I’d prefer to start Brannen and then have Kelly be the first player off the bench.

@KansasComet I agree with the explanation of the Stanford game. We missed a lot of bunnies and that’s hard to pin on Self. We actually did adjust in the second half offensively. We were much better getting the ball to the high post to Tarik and Jamari in positions where they had space to get to the rim.

I will disagree a bit with @icthawkfan316. 10-50ish guys are still athletic but there’s a noticeable difference between that level and OAD level talent. I think about the 2011 final against Kentucky. We struggled with length that game too, including T-Rob, missed a ton of short shots. I struggle to remember another KU game where the “athleticism deficit” seemed as big as it did during that game.

Agree about Calipari, though. You could see the recruiting took a toll on him. He can’t keep that up and has said as much.

@HighEliteMajor

I’m not saying initial penetration doesn’t matter. Of course it does. Yes, it is the most important thing. BUT reducing all of the defensive issues to Tharpe’s failure to prevent dribble penetration absolves everyone else of responsibility. There are no binarys here. Other people are somewhat responsible. The timing of Embiid’s injury mattered some. You have to acknowledge those things.

Defensive statistics are team statistics. They measure your ability to play together effectively as a group. FG % defense most directly measures shot quality. As soon as someone gets by Tharpe, it becomes the team responsibility to rotate. Failure to challenge a shot after that point falls on someone else. Failure to fulfill that responsibility means that others are - to some extent- responsible. In that way they contribute to poor FG% defense.

Of course the guard that allows penetration makes it harder for everyone else to play good defense. Is it fair? no. But it is the reality. And it is the responsibility of everyone to help. In addition to being a weaker on-ball team than others Self has coached, we were also weaker making rotations. We had six freshmen come in. 5 of them played significant minutes. In retrospect, it’s no wonder they didn’t play together as well as the 2011 team.

As an aside, I agree that Tharpe’s defense hurt Black more than others. But again, you can’t absolve Tarik completely. Perry and JoJo are better at challenging shots without fouling. That is not Tarik’s strength. Naadir increased Tarik’s exposure to fouls, but Tarik still committed each and every one of them.

It is clear we disagree about the importance of Embiid’s injury.

@HighEliteMajor

If the problem is the dribble penetration into the paint, then a “pack it in” zone is preventative simply because it limits open space in the middle and increases it on the perimeter. It also limits the amount of space that you ask your most vulnerable people (Perry, Naadir) to cover.

Our defense was not good last season, but it wasn’t the initial penetration per se that hurt. With Embiid in the back, isolated dribble penetration can always be dealt with. What hurt was after the initial dribble penetration. The kick outs, the dump offs, the secondary drives. We were terrible stopping what happened after the initial penetration.

Yes, “zone gives you help.” So does man. When the ball is on the wing, there are just as many people in the paint with man as with zone, at least when played effectively. I’m not convinced a zone gives you more help than a good man to man does. What role do you see Perry and Naadir playing in zone that addresses their man to man limitations?

As an aside, Perry does not challenge shots above the rim but he is OK on-ball when he’s guarding his own position as a 4.

Yes, we should have beaten Stanford, just like Arizona should have beaten every Pac-12 team after their injury. Michigan State was more talented than many of the teams they lost to, too. The injury to Embiid counts for something. That injury happened at the very end of the season! The offense was stagnant in part because guys weren’t used to playing together without Embiid on the court. Tarik is great, but he is a very different type of player than Embiid. Traylor was great, but he played many more minutes. Those types of things affect other players and their comfort on the court.

@HighEliteMajor

1-2. I will agree that zone may have been more appropriate with last year’s team than with others. It would have kept Tarik on the floor more earlier in the year and minimized the poor rotations. While our guards did not do a great job staying in front of their man last year, our poor help made that problem worse. The first half of our home game against TCU is a great example. No way their point guard should score that much and get into the paint so easily.

We could have switched to zone for Tharpe and Ellis but, Self did not recruit any of his players for their ability to play zone. If you switch to zone for two people, the abilities of everyone else are mis-used. And they may struggle just as much.

I think Tharpe’s main problems are bigger than Perry’s. Tharpe lacks lateral quickness and probably the discipline to commit consistently. I think Perry struggles more with vision and court awareness. He has to do a better job seeing the ball at all times and being aware of court position. Where I notice the quickness issue with Perry is when he gets switched guarding smaller (quicker) players and when he guards off-ball, away from the basket. He’s also vulnerable defending in transition.

If you want to go with a zone that is active and traps 3/4 court, some of the same issues remain. You need guards that are quick out front (and ideally long) and you need the guys behind to have great anticipation. If you commit to zone for Perry and Naadir, that zone is probably most effective as a pack it in, preventative zone. I don’t get the sense you are excited about this type of scheme.

Last, you point to national championships. I would only say that not all champions play more zone. Kentucky rarely plays zone. With Connecticut, Florida, Syracuse and Louisville, yes that is true. If we want to become more like any of those teams defensively in terms of how we use the zone, then I think Florida is most appropriate. But the type of players we recruit are more similar to Kentucky than those at the other schools. Self and Calipari almost always wrestle over the same top players.

With regard to this year, a zone would not have meant beating Stanford. JoJo’s injury was huge because of when it happened - late in the season. We didn’t have enough time to adjust. Michigan State had constant injury problems this year and never got time to play much together as a healthy unit before the tournament. They lost earlier than expected. Arizona had a late season injury and was never quite the same. KU’s injury was later in the season than both of those teams. JoJo was just as if not more important to our team than any single injury to Arizona and Michigan State. We’ve had early exits in past years but I can’t remember a year when we had a late season injury as significant as JoJo’s.

If we go NBA then we have to include Xavier Henry over Jeff Withey. Incredible.

@HighEliteMajor

Don’t you think going zone would make it even harder to play at a quicker pace?

A lot of our runouts come off turnovers in the half court. We would probably force fewer turnovers playing zone unless we are really active. Like other posters have said, I’m skeptical that our coaches would teach a solid zone that generates the same defensive pressure we generate with m2m.

Agree on B-mac and Wiggins.

Other particular dunks that stand out:

Chalmers one handed dunk vs. Georgia tech with the kick follow through.

Brandon Rush from Russel Rob off the backboard against Carolina in the Final Four (elite 8?)

@Virgil_Caine

Self teams also get high marks for efficiency statistics, which would have to popular in the new age of analytics. His first shot field goal defense has been great for many years, but this year KU was one of the top FG% teams as well.

OKC might work well, because they play more with traditional bigs that don’t get a ton of shots away from the basket.