Seven Point Fix: Free Your Mind
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@HighEliteMajor you asked a question on successes. Next you import strategy, scheme, and leadership? It was a yes or no question? Right?
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If the problem is the dribble penetration into the paint, then a “pack it in” zone is preventative simply because it limits open space in the middle and increases it on the perimeter. It also limits the amount of space that you ask your most vulnerable people (Perry, Naadir) to cover.
Our defense was not good last season, but it wasn’t the initial penetration per se that hurt. With Embiid in the back, isolated dribble penetration can always be dealt with. What hurt was after the initial dribble penetration. The kick outs, the dump offs, the secondary drives. We were terrible stopping what happened after the initial penetration.
Yes, “zone gives you help.” So does man. When the ball is on the wing, there are just as many people in the paint with man as with zone, at least when played effectively. I’m not convinced a zone gives you more help than a good man to man does. What role do you see Perry and Naadir playing in zone that addresses their man to man limitations?
As an aside, Perry does not challenge shots above the rim but he is OK on-ball when he’s guarding his own position as a 4.
Yes, we should have beaten Stanford, just like Arizona should have beaten every Pac-12 team after their injury. Michigan State was more talented than many of the teams they lost to, too. The injury to Embiid counts for something. That injury happened at the very end of the season! The offense was stagnant in part because guys weren’t used to playing together without Embiid on the court. Tarik is great, but he is a very different type of player than Embiid. Traylor was great, but he played many more minutes. Those types of things affect other players and their comfort on the court.
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@HighEliteMajor BIG QUESTION: You’ve done your usual outstanding job in presenting stale-prevention playstyle evolution. But my only question is this: Could the lack of execution, especially the defensive fail-jobs by Naadir and Ellis be a logic error in our supposition that “the system is bad” or “needs revision”? What if Self simply makes a g-dd–n example out of Naa & says “you dont play if you cant play D”. Just like he did with Elijah Johnson, who couldnt keep his man in front of him (compared to Brady). Maybe its time for Naa to ‘ride pine’, while better defense-instincts Mason and Frankamp get to play 20-25mpg as each other’s subs?
System breakdown needs to be traced to its root cause, right? I hate to sound like your Self soundbite “we didnt execute…”, but the fact is, when we do execute his system to a national top10 level, we win in astonishing fashion. And when we dont execute that way, even in a single game (think UNI, VCU…), we are ripe to get beat, because we are playing below our system’s requirements.
General comment for those new to KU and Self basketball: SelfBall Principles:
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Play D. Top10 FG% D. D always travels. Keeps you in a game when your offense is struggling.
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WIN the possession battle: limit t.o.'s, get steals, win the rebounds.
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High%looks: Its why we will always be inside-first (but just as a general philosophy). The lob-dunk is a ridiculously high% play, which Im sure Stan VanGundy figured out after his shock at seeing an actual college team dedicate actual practice time to several plays for lob dunks. Skilled bigs and stickback bigs are high% looks. As is an “open look 3, by a trusted shooter”.
I would like to go a bit counter-thread here, just for the sake of advancing our overall discussion…and actually defend Bill Self by saying he is NOT as rigid as he is made out to be. Evidence:
-Abandons some of set offense in 2012, as TRob doubled, and Withey not polished enough to create, and has Tyshawn “just drive it”. Bill Self went dribble drive. Either he did it calculatingly, or Tyshawn just got so good at it along with a high70sFT%, that we survived with that playstyle. It suited his personnel. -We do kick out for 3att often enough to have decent 3att for most games. Clearly he has NOT told players to NOT shoot, as we saw Mason try them early and often, then become more selective. I think Self’s msg on 3s is dont force them up early in a possession, especially if rebounders arent set…that’s just playing the percentages/smart basketball. You can of course argue that if we chucked them early and often, we would have the element of surprise, as opposed to the last 6sec of the shot clock, when everybody knows a forced, highpressure 3att is coming. One of the MAIN common issues in the UNI and VCU losses were the dismal KU 3%, and by very trusted senior shooters (Sherron 0-6, Reed 1-7). Sherron had a green light from Day 1, and Reed likely did also. I have NO doubt Jacobsen’s supposed lack of structure in allowing his UNI players to shoot 3s whenever/by whomever made an impression on Self. I mean we saw Mason, Embiid, Ellis, Frankamp, Selden, Greene, Wiggins, AW3 all attempt 3s. Now the harder part: recall that many of those looks were early, but that is OK if the shooter is wide open. Open-look 3s have ALWAYS been accepted and encouraged by Self. I’ve seen that throughout the years, different sets of players, to realize it IS a part of his system, and he doesnt discourage open-look 3 attempts. You cannot face savant shooters like Heslip, Forte, Keiton Page, Kevin Durant and not think that you couldnt/shouldnt “free up” your own shooters. I think Rush and Chalmers always had the greenlight, just as frosh Sherron did since day 1 in 2007. Even RussRob had the greenlight, hitting the opening KU points with a corner3 vs UNC in the Final4. You know EJ and Tyshawn always had greenlights, as did Releford. Teahan also had a green light. Selby certainly did.-Experimenting with zones and trapping. I think Self may be more rigid on his m2m defense, as “you gotta get really good at one thing” (which we did not achieve this season). Duke is also a decidedly m2m team. With all the limits on practice time by the NCAA, it is a very real decision coaches have to make as to how to spend their limited practice time. But clearly we DO have zone and trapping “pkgs” to use situationally. Now if Self wants to throw a changeup D every 3 possessions, all game long, that’s his perogative.
So, feel free to armchair QB any coach, anywhere, anytime. Me personally, I just want to see solid, tough, efficient play and improvement in all the major areas, as by KU standards, this last season was THE worst team KU has had since 2006, statistically speaking.
Who knows what Self has up his sleeve for 2014-15, other than opening a can of Cliff-X-Tuff on everybody…and lets not forget K.Oubre, who might be a god-fearing kid, but fears nothing else, as he tried to dunk on Cliff in the final seconds of crunchtime, winning the game on the FT line. We need that attitude. Works best in Self’s system. We know this already…
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@ralster great post! Only disagreement would be on Conner’s defense. Pretty shaky, along w/a few others! I have a hard time figuring why it was so bad.
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@ralster You are right on point with your question: “But my only question is this: Could the lack of execution, especially the defensive fail-jobs by Naadir and Ellis be a logic error in our supposition that “the system is bad” or “needs revision”?”
I am not suggesting that man to man is a “system fail.” With the 2013-14 Jayhawks, man to man defense netted a subpar result.
The fail-jobs by Tharpe and Ellis lead to the conclusion that the system has to be more flexible. If you have square pegs, it is a “system fail” to continue to pound them into round holes. That is really my conclusion.
I simply suggest that Self open his mind to the possibility that strict man to man is not the only answer all of the time.
However, I do disagree with your statement: “We do kick out for 3att often enough to have decent 3att for most games. Clearly he has NOT told players to NOT shoot.”
Self plainly has told players not to shoot. Ever see Greene turn down an open look three? Many times. Why? Because it was early in the shot clock. A trained dog on a leash. Do the wrong thing, you get yanked – like a dog on a leash. Pretty soon, you are skiddish and you won’t think of doing it. Self wants the three point shot to be a later option to getting a “better” shot. The “feed the post” mantra. You don’t disagree with that, right?
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@jayhawk12 “Our defense was not good last season, but it wasn’t the initial penetration per se that hurt.”
We are not on the same page. That statement ignores the entire season. You conclude the problem was that “We were terrible stopping what happened after the initial penetration.”
Penetration creates opportunity, passes, getting fouled. EJ, Taylor, even McLemore were much better in stopping penetration. CF and Mason were better than Tharpe. You simply can’t expose your post players to having to bail out your point guard who can’t stop penetration. You get fouled up – see Black. Many of those were after Tharpe’s guy got in the lane. If you want to try and explain away that, then I’m sorry, it’s hard to discuss it. You ask any coach what’s more important, he’ll say stopping the penetration in the first place. You will have a certain % of times when there is penetration of course, but you can’t give it up over and over. When you do you are creating too many opportunities. It’s hoops 101.
I read your last paragraph and it reeks of “apologist.” With that approach, you can explain away everything. I say very firmly that the Embiid injury means nothing … zero … when playing Stanford. We should beat Stanford in that situation. Period. But we got outcoached, plain and simple. Dawkins had the superior game plan. His defenders contested nearly every shot, as Self conceded. We did not have an answer to get open shots. Game, set, match. You are right, “we should have beaten Stanford.” To fall back on the Embiid injury is embarrassing, to be honest.
No Embiid vs. Florida, or another stout team? Sure. Makes sense. Not Stanford.
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@KansasComet I had asked “Does Coach Self get credit for the successes? Do you credit him for the 2008 title?”
You had said yes, he put the team together.
I then responded by asking if he gets credit for scheme, strategy, etc.
What I mean is, wouldn’t he then get the blame too for failures? It’s legit to say he shares the blame, right?
I have not seen anyone dispute that Self got outcoached vs. Stanford. It happens. Sometimes getting outcoached is having the wrong personnel on the floor. Sometimes not adjusting. Against Stanford, Self permitted Stanford to execute its game plan without any real strategic interference. Best he can do is try to improve like everyone else in life.
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@ralster Thank you! That sums up my thoughts. Very well said. I think there are some that want to fix what ain’t broke. Looking forward to next season!
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@HighEliteMajor I believe he shows up to the press conferences after every game. Win or lose. It starts with the Head Coach. Now, for my question. Is it right to say “I don’t want Wiggins”, and then say “forget everything bad I said about Wiggins”, only to flip again when the end result is not realized? That’s not cool. But somehow, I am sure that is Coach Self’s fault for recruiting a one and done?
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I’m not saying initial penetration doesn’t matter. Of course it does. Yes, it is the most important thing. BUT reducing all of the defensive issues to Tharpe’s failure to prevent dribble penetration absolves everyone else of responsibility. There are no binarys here. Other people are somewhat responsible. The timing of Embiid’s injury mattered some. You have to acknowledge those things.
Defensive statistics are team statistics. They measure your ability to play together effectively as a group. FG % defense most directly measures shot quality. As soon as someone gets by Tharpe, it becomes the team responsibility to rotate. Failure to challenge a shot after that point falls on someone else. Failure to fulfill that responsibility means that others are - to some extent- responsible. In that way they contribute to poor FG% defense.
Of course the guard that allows penetration makes it harder for everyone else to play good defense. Is it fair? no. But it is the reality. And it is the responsibility of everyone to help. In addition to being a weaker on-ball team than others Self has coached, we were also weaker making rotations. We had six freshmen come in. 5 of them played significant minutes. In retrospect, it’s no wonder they didn’t play together as well as the 2011 team.
As an aside, I agree that Tharpe’s defense hurt Black more than others. But again, you can’t absolve Tarik completely. Perry and JoJo are better at challenging shots without fouling. That is not Tarik’s strength. Naadir increased Tarik’s exposure to fouls, but Tarik still committed each and every one of them.
It is clear we disagree about the importance of Embiid’s injury.
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Do you think you can’t do both in practice? I think other teams do. UK was younger and obviously did
@HighEliteMajor I absolutely think you can do both. But your point was that we go “all in” on zone, which I took to mean we practice that instead of M2M. So say in a season we spend 90-95% of the time practicing M2M (which is my guess as to how much time we spend on M2M), going “all in” on zone would mean spending 90-95% on zone in practice. That is what I wouldn’t want to do. I’m on record as wanting more zone, but not ever as the primary defense taught.
And no, PG play wasn’t the primary reason we lost to Stanford, although Self stubbornly going with Tharpe for far too many minutes in the second half certainly contributed. But to get to the national championship? I could see if Self abandoned Tharpe all together, then and only then would PG play not be an obstacle that we eventually would be unable to overcome.
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" @drgnslayr - “And every team is unique and strategy has to fit their uniqueness so they can become most effective.”
With a system coach, talent adapts to system. It is a key consideration in why, possibly, we don’t seem to get the most out of our talent. "
Over my lifetime, I bet I’ve had 100 or so arguments about this subject. You are right, system coaches force their system. And they should recruit specific players that fit the system and know what they are signing up for.
I believe in it to the point where a team can improve if you adjust to what players you have. At that point, you should do whatever you can to produce the best outcomes. This is especially important with OADs… because making them endure bad play won’t teach them anything they can later come back and use because in a few months they are gone.
Seems impossible to expect consistent positive results from non-4-year players if the coach is going to be a pure system coach. Self definitely fit the description over his history. But in recent years he has adapted his own rules to fit situations… primarily, OADs.
My question: will he continue to come off his rigid coaching style? Myles Turner will not fit in his hi/lo except on occasion. If Bill wants Myles to become a Jayhawk, doesn’t he realize Myles skills primarily involve him facing the basket, not back to the basket? He would do Myles a great disservice by forcing him to play most of his time back to the basket. It won’t help him get drafted high, and it won’t be his game in the NBA.
And then… how would Bill ever hope to land a player like Thon Maker? He’s preparing to go after him big time.
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@drgnslayr Turner said he liked Selfs hi lo, he could play both.
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Kansas Turner says: “I like the high-low system that Coach [Bill] Self runs, due to the fact that I can play both the high and the low. Playing in that system with Cliff and a couple of other bigs over there, that would be pretty cool to be a part of.”
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@HighEliteMajor Totally agree that Self ought to show more flexibility…I was simply trying to point out that he seems to show more flexibility lately (but definitely didnt convert over to predominant zone).
2 ideas:
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Maybe Self didnt have to be so flexible in the past, simply because the execution of TheSystem was adequate, and gave better results? (why change what already is working?)
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The other idea is that if Self ever went to zone-D predominantly, and starts practicing it–> what happens to the young’uns being brought up in the System? They start having to focus on zone-D (in the limited practice time the NCAA gives us)…and in 1 season, we have altered the developmental ‘pipeline’…and basically turned our whole program into a zone-D program? That’s a bigtime ramification, HEM, and my friendly thought is that its why Self wont wholesale change his base D, as that will alter the teachings to 2-3 years worth of kids?
On another note, count me “IN” on the push-the-pace tempo forced by quickly inbounding the ball by anyone off a made bucket. It would give a few more chances for our athletes to get out in transition, which we always seem to be waiting to do…but the D sucked and we hardly got steals, strips. The glimmer of hope was when Embiid blocked something, we still were able to take it and run with it. Kids do that in h.s. I agree it would give us another factor to control the game. Put some more fouls on the opponent…
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This season, simply because of the huge influx of newbies, we simply were NOT good statistically in key areas. Our FG% defense sucked like a KS tornado. Our 2nd shot defense was awful. We didnt have over half of 2008’s offense installed and usable and well-rehearsed. Remember, the 2008 experienced squad absolutely demolished zone-defenses…(same coach), what was the difference?
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@ralster nice posts!
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@HighEliteMajor I’ll dispute it for you. Stanford 0-9 from 3 point range. Zero percent. Could Coach Self’s defense possibly do any better than that? By the way, we knocked down 5. Andrew Wiggins did try to get involved. 4 turnovers, and I believe they were all traveling violations. He scored on at least one of those, basket disallowed however. That’s another potential 12 points of offense right there. The quick whistle stifled him, not Stanford defense. 58 shot attempts and only 18 Free Throw attempts for Kansas, 47 shot attempts and 26 Free Throw attempts for Stanford. We missed a lot of layups. How is that Coach Self’s fault? I am sure this team has worked on layups all season long. It happens? 15 fouls for Stanford, 22 for Kansas. Was the game called evenly? I was there, and I don’t think so. Every single time KU tried to get something going, a whistle changed the momentum. Now, keep in mind that when Coach Self makes decisions in the heat of battle, with thousands of screaming fans, that has an immediate impact on the game. He is not afforded the opportunity to go grab a beer, or a shot while complaining to his significant other about the state of Kansas Basketball and what needs to happen. His life is not that easy. He is the Coach of the Kansas Jayhawks and does a damn good job at it. Switching to a zone defense? If it was that simple…
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" @drgnslayr Turner said he liked Selfs hi lo, he could play both."
I think he’s been sold the idea that Cliff will anchor the hi/lo post and he’ll see some movement around it… and he will get a bit of it just to build his tool box.
Remember Jeff Withey? Myles is a lighter version of Jeff. Even in Jeff’s senior year, he couldn’t do much in the hi/lo. I’m not saying Myles can’t do it or can’t learn to do it, but he won’t be getting drafted in the No Boys Allowed league to play with his back to the basket. He’d have to put on 50 lbs of solid muscle (mostly in his lower body) to dominate in the league doing that.
And why should he be doing that? He should be out exploring all areas on the floor and learn to score everywhere. That will be his ticket to the next level, not low post play.
Still… it is a good thing for him to play some low post. Some… limited.
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@drgnslayr hmmm Jeff Withey, sounds familiar!
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He had areas of his game that could stand improving… but, dang, I miss him on D!
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@drgnslayr if it’s the same guy I’m thinking of, he ended this season on a good note! Saw a recent pic, he’s look pretty darn smooth! Great kid, deserves the best!
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I wonder if playing M2M versus zone defense impacts recruiting top tier talent?
Calipari tries to run M2M most of the time, and just keeps zone around to use at times.
Playing M2M in your one year of college seems like a smart thing to do since it’s about all you play in the NBA. Though, in reality, they often play a hybrid defense that hedges away into zone areas.
@HighEliteMajor - what are your ideas on that? I know you would like us to recruit just below those potential OADs. Obviously, Self seems to like to recruit those players now. What do you think… would it impact Self’s success at recruiting those players?
Anyone else have an opinion on that?
Could it be that now Self is committed to nailing all these top players and it is also shackling him into playing only M2M?
Everyone in here knows I’m not a Calipari fan… but he does seem to be learning more flexibility with his game. Perhaps more than Self.
Maybe it is just the fact that Calipari has been landing these top players more often and so has had more time to adjust around having all the short-term players.
Funny… it looks like Cal will only lose Randle and Young for next year. Kentucky appears to be the team to beat. But they will be vulnerable to any team that can manufacture a guard tandem like UCONN had. That’s what it will take to stop Kentucky… unless they run into bad luck, like injuries.
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@drgnslayr see ralster’s post.
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@drgnslayr Very interesting post, much to discuss. M2M has its proponents and diehards, chiefly Bill Self, Mike Kryzyewski, and a whole host of lesser known coaches. Then there’s the zoner’s: Boeheim, Scot Drew, and a few 1-3-1 guys…
Personally, I think playing M2M, but then having a few changeups-Ds in our bag of tricks is the way to go. I think the major problem with our team this year, is that we were incompetent (or better term is “spotty”…) with our OWN base defense. That’s not going to get it done, folks.
@KansasComet: raised a very interesting synopsis of the Stanford game. I told people after that game, that we actually defended fairly well, we shot the 3ball ok, and only had 13 turnovers for the game…right at our season avg. So why the loss? MISSED SHOTS IN THE PAINT. Traylor is normally a 70% FG shooter, but he missed a lot. Recall that 2 nights before, he WAS the hot hand vs. EKY, going 18 and 15. Ellis, god love him, has problems scoring against length, and Stanford had that disciplined 6’10, 240lb senior clogging the paint. And poor Ellis, god love him, isnt an above the rim player like Thomas Robinson. Nor does Ellis have Robinson’s intense inner fire, that you could see in the plays that Robinson made. TRob exuded swagger and toughness. He was as much a Man in the paint as Cole Aldrich was.
Summary: Boil the Stanford loss down to: didnt make our high% looks in the paint. The FT discrepancy and foul-calls thing is always debatable, although seems to be a factor, as @KansasComet pointed out. Frank Mason would have had 6 more assists than he did if shots actually fell…I think Frank is getting the big pix. His teammates didnt make him look very good, and some of that happened to Naa (Nuu) this whole season (Tharpe looked pretty good last year playing with a bunch of veteran seniors, and actually improved his 3% this season…but OMG the defense.)
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The other idea is that if Self ever went to zone-D predominantly, and starts practicing it–> what happens to the young’uns being brought up in the System? They start having to focus on zone-D (in the limited practice time the NCAA gives us)…and in 1 season, we have altered the developmental ‘pipeline’…and basically turned our whole program into a zone-D program? That’s a bigtime ramification, HEM, and my friendly thought is that its why Self wont wholesale change his base D, as that will alter the teachings to 2-3 years worth of kids?
@ralster This is exactly the point I’ve been trying to make, perhaps more eloquently made by yourself. The long term ramifications of making an “all in” switch to be a zone team for one year. From me, a day ago:
“we’ve essentially taken a year off where we didn’t teach the fundamentals of intense, in your face M2M defense to a very young team. So be it this next season, or in 2 years, you’ve lost perhaps the most important year to teach your core defensive philosophy to rotation guys like Selden, Greene, Mason, Frankamp. I think the underlying reasoning here should be that you never make an “all in” switch for a single season, regardless of personnel.”
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@icthawkfan316 Yep. And it only makes the case that in recruiting, a system coach should target and market to attract guys that will flourish and buy-in to his approach. Everyone knows if you go play for Izzo or Coach K or Bill Self, you are going to play tough, you will play m2m D, and you will play team-oriented ball. If you dont want that, you go elsewhere. There should be NO regrets on either side. Its a calculated business decision. I mean its a HUGE decision on bringing the right kids in. I think Self has done an admirable job at it.
Me personally, I got spoiled totally watching Russell Robinson + Chalmers wreak absolute havoc on defense, which then ignited those transition breaks and highlight reel plays Jayhawk fans always loved. More competent D results in more of those “patented KU 20-2 runs” that seem to put the game away. Notice how we rarely put anybody away this season? Notice how we couldnt play lock-down D even in our own (sacred?) gym against SDSU?
The recurring mental imagery of Bill Self/KU basketball burned in my brain by repetetive dominance of execution is RussRob or Sherron in that defensive stance, right after a made-dunk by KU. Right there pestering the opposing guard. In your face.
As HEM & I have said…recruit the 10-50ish ranked guys…guys who thus WILL stay 2+yrs, and keep that pipeline flowing. Top50 athletes are top-level athletic types too, think of Thomas Robinson, Tyshawn, Elijah, RussRob, Greene, AW3. But they stay longer, which it should be clear, is what we need.
I cannot wait to see Yr2 of Selden, Mason, Greene, and more mpg for Lucas, AW3, Traylor. The whole enchilada gets better, top to bottom. Fate robbed us of seeing Yr2 of Embiid, very sad to say, as that kid was absolutely special.
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@drgnslayr You mention Kentucky and Calipari. I agree that he seems to be at the forefront in adapting what he does to tailor to (so he can cater to) the OAD. The most interesting thing is that the Harrison Twins have decided to return to KY for another year. I mean that is BIG. And hugely to their credit.
Make no mistake: BOTH Bill Self and Calipari have said they favor a 2AD rule. Even the most elemental coach knows that experienced athletes are more competent and consistent than inexperienced athletes. Plus it cuts the recruiting-wars stress in half for Calipari, and lessens it somewhat for Self, who only needs 2-3 good players every season, unlike Calipari, who needs 4-5 every season, and 4-5 so good that they are capable of starting from Day 1 (basically top10-15 guys). Calipari looked like he aged 10yrs this season (added to last year’s RobertMorrisExperience).
I actually rooted for KY once they beat WSU as it was almost a joy to see freshmen actually come together and “get it” as a team–maybe because KU was facing similar struggles. As Self said, Selden “gets it”…but other team members lagged. I think Wiggins got “it”, and Mason really came around. Frankamp understood ball protection, although he had an ugly t.o. when he got tripped in the backcourt, gave up a gift layup. No worries, he’ll get better.
Back to KY, my respect for the Harrisons went up a lot, I saw how disconnected they were to start with…but if their Tourney run was a sign of their turning the corner…man, keep an eye on KY next season (just as an analytical royalty program observer, hehe…).
RCJH
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@KansasComet I agree with the explanation of the Stanford game. We missed a lot of bunnies and that’s hard to pin on Self. We actually did adjust in the second half offensively. We were much better getting the ball to the high post to Tarik and Jamari in positions where they had space to get to the rim.
I will disagree a bit with @icthawkfan316. 10-50ish guys are still athletic but there’s a noticeable difference between that level and OAD level talent. I think about the 2011 final against Kentucky. We struggled with length that game too, including T-Rob, missed a ton of short shots. I struggle to remember another KU game where the “athleticism deficit” seemed as big as it did during that game.
Agree about Calipari, though. You could see the recruiting took a toll on him. He can’t keep that up and has said as much.
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@jayhawk12 I don’t think you’re disagreeing with me. I’m not opposed to recruiting top 10 talent. I wouldn’t want a team built around them, but as pieces to complete the puzzle they are fine.
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@HighEliteMajor Your phrase to jayhawk12 about our “lack of zone offense cost us against Stanford” is 100% correct…and for the sake of fellow Jayhawks understanding the main issue of this team: Inexperienced execution. Tharpe’s D gets no pass, but his offensive execution depended on frosh being in the right place also–> a problem poor Nuudir didnt have the previous season playing with seniors…I mean, we all thought he could have been IN the game vs. Michigan as a 2nd ball-handling guard to help EJ (& EJ’s body of work makes that a debatable need, going into the Michigan game. He wasnt known as a t.o. machine, nor a 10sec violator). Recall a little bit of a trap early vs. Stanford…and Tharpe passes it to the scorer’s table. Was there supposed to be a KU guy in that position, that didnt make the same read?
Zone-offense incompetence just killed us. I mean 3-4 of our losses were to teams that played zone D against us–recurring theme. Man, I knew after SDSU and Villanova, that we’d get tested by any team that had a zone-D pkg installed. Why not? Bill Self’s kids are young newbies, and obviously dont have it figured out. We were not the 2008Champs with the entire Self-catalogue of zone-busting plays in-place, were we?
2013-14 Jayhawks were a shell of a product. Half-baked. Raw. Not competent in some key Self-system areas. Ripe for a Tourney loss. If you cant figure out how to beat what they are throwing at ya, you’re done. Self knows. But the player’s recognition of, and execution thereafter is the variable not only for each player’s understanding, but also as a team…with guys needing to be on the same page, at the same time. No one going to help Nuu, will result in a t.o., very similar to WR and QB on the same page as the “hot read” on a blitz. Just like Jared Sullinger in a Withey/TRob trap in the post…Sully didnt know what to do. We got 3-4 t.o.'s off of that. Embiid learned to pass out of double teams, while pressure caused Ellis (as a soph) to give several “gift” turnovers. Absolutely maddening.
Maybe the biggest tell-tale sign of a youthful team’s fans needing to “cap” their expectations a bit is the whole idea of moving target incompetencies. First we cant attack a zone. Then we cant defend. But then we can defend against Texas in a jekyll-hyde turnaround. But then we cannot beat smallball IowaState in the BigXII Tourney without Embiid…then the zone offense thing finally fells us, eventhough we played decent D, and hit 3s, while Stanford hit NO 3s. When you cant trust what kind of team will show up night to night, its a sign of inexperienced frosh inconsistencies.
All this stress unfortunately caused Self to gain like 20lbs (it seems). Stress-induced cortisol-effect wt gain is the worst kind. I worry for the man, he’s my guy, dont want anybody else… At least, in one sense, our season ending early put an end to that level of stress. Now if we just get the Turner Saga-Drama to end on Apr.30, we can focus on all our pieces for next season. Self gets not only a fresh start, but has a critical mass of experience in his returnees. And Cliff + Kelly DO possess tough, aggressive on-court personalities. Just exactly what we need to sprinkle in to our mix.
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"The most interesting thing is that the Harrison Twins have decided to return to KY for another year. I mean that is BIG. And hugely to their credit.
Make no mistake: BOTH Bill Self and Calipari have said they favor a 2AD rule. "
I hate to admit it, but I actually give a ‘hats off’ to Calipari for getting a big chunk of his team back for next year. They will be tough to beat… but I’m always glad to see kids stay in school, and it says something to his relationship with his players that they give up the quick cash to come back.
And it sounds like they will be carrying a chip on their shoulders to get it done next year. That is something we should have had in 2013… when we were stocked with seniors and the best shot-blocker in the country. We should have had something to prove after finishing runner up the year before. To this day I still can’t believe no one made a single peep about finishing 2nd the year before.
I’ll never understand why we didn’t put it together in 2013. I know fingers point to EJ… and he definitely cost us. But we should have been a more-dominant team that year. We definitely didn’t have the best offensive players over other years… but we should have been able to lock down defense and win a championship. That was before the NCAA decided to hamper lock down defense with their rules adjustments.
There is a good chance we will have a TAD system in place within 3 to 4 years. The new NBA commish… Silver… promised it was his priority to bump the age up a year for incoming players. And he mentioned bringing the NCAA with him to iron out the details within the league.
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@drgnslayr the only reason the twins are coming back is because they dropped so low in the draft, or they would be gone. jMO
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Two main items:
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I have not suggested that we go to zone primarily as an overall defensive philosophy. However, if our personnel are so incompetent at man that to have a chance to win a national championship in a particular season, we have to go zone primarily, then we should. I said it back in late November. In the last 11 or 12 seasons, no team had given up as many points per game as KU and won a national championship other than UNC in 2005 and 2009 (I went off defensive ppg ranking to take into account rule interpretation changes). As some of you may recall, I advocated a change offensively to begin the tourney because, with such a poor defensive team, we had little chance to advance unless we simply outscored opponents (pace of game, etc.). I just ask that Self include zone as many other coaches do in his approach, much like he did in 2008 when we won the title. Other coaches find time; we can find time. Other coaches use it – heck, Calipari changed the entire momentum of the NC game shifting to zone.
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Please, folks, don’t live under the delusion that “missed bunnies” were the reason we lost to Stanford. This is a red herring. Don’t believe that it was out of Self’s control. I’ve posted on this before. Coach Self, after the Stanford game, said that most shots were contested and that the "The majority of them we missed, length really affected us."
Again, we can say we missed shots. But it is a coach’s job to use scheme and strategy to get open shots. Look at what Wiggins said:
This from a KU sports article - “Wherever I went I saw three people. They were keying in on me,” said Wiggins, who, like the rest of his teammates, struggled against Stanford’s 1-3-1 and 2-3 zones. He was guarded by 6-7 Josh Huestis the times the Cardinal played man. "Whenever I went right, I saw three Stanford guys. Whenever I went left I saw three Stanford guys. That’s no excuse. You are supposed to find different ways to score and different ways to get your teammates involved. I failed to do that tonight.”
Wiggins didn’t fail. Coach Self failed. Dawkins kicked his ass. The brilliance of Johnny Dawkins was nothing more than he looked at what other teams did to beat us, added his personal twist based on his personnel, and put his team in a position to win.
Somehow, not only was Wiggins locked down, but our bigs had their shots contested too.
Self with the patented excuse after Stanford: “It’s a little bit different pressure,” said Self, who fell to 7-2 in round of 32 games. “We’re a young team, and we certainly played young.” Of course, UK was young too.
Another link about our stagnant offense, and another observer noting how Stanford’s zone stopped Wiggins.
It is simply a cop out to say that our shots didn’t fall, and to defend Self as if he had nothing to do with it makes no sense in the face of the evidence. Ask yourself, what did coach Self do to help KU, strategically and schematically, to win vs. Stanford?
One thing - using the press, finally, at the 10 minute mark.
I say finally because Stanford didn’t have a point guard. No, not like us – they didn’t have a solid primary ballhandler. But Self waited until the 10 minute mark to press?
This is exactly what I’m talking about.
This is not arm chair quarterbacking. This is simple. It is something that your local high school coach would exploit.
And before you give Self more of a pass, remember, he chose to start Naadir Tharpe vs. Stanford. Let that sink in.
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@drgnslayr I think the issue with EJ’s 2013 Hawks were that they had Withey (220lbs) and Kevin Young (180lbs) in the paint. And frosh Ellis. NO BRUTE FACTOR. And I’ve spoken ad nauseum of there being a lack of a 2nd athletic combo guard to play alongside EJ. EJ needed Tyshawn, and both made each other better.
Stated another way: Why was there no “chip” on the shoulder with EJ’s final team? --> Because the aggressive and emotional heart of the team departed when Thomas Robinson and Tyshawn Taylor departed. Never-say-die attitude that only died after the Kentucky game was over. Personally, I will never forget the heart and fight in those 2012 RunnerUp Jayhawks, and shall root for each of those guys forever, just like I will for the 2008 guys. Special teams! Special chemistry. Recognize when its there, and realize when its not there.
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@HighEliteMajor What is the easiest shot to make in the game of basketball? A layup or a dunk. Last I checked 2 missed bunnies would equal 4 points. We lost the game by 3 points. The game tying shot was in the air. Selden scored 2 points. Isn’t he a starter and a 5 Star recruit. Perry Ellis scored 9 Points. Isn’t he a starter and a 5 star recruit. Black had a great game with 18, but he fouled out with 5 minutes remaining in the game. Not much he could offer Coach Self in crunch time? Yet, you continue to focus on Wiggins and Self. This is a successful basketball team. A team that I support, good or bad, win or lose. To refer to my beloved Jayhawks as “so incompetent”? Really? No excuse for that. They are transitioning from boy to men. A process that I thoroughly enjoy watching. You say “Dawkins kicked Self’s Ass”. Again, 3 point game, tying shot in the air. Never saw a 3 point Ass Kicking.
No one is giving Coach Self a free pass. I see effort every year from Coach Self. Winning the Conference 10 years in a row is a special feat. I am sure he is more upset about losing in the tournament than I could ever be. Does it do anyone any good to complain about lack of a zone defense in late April? I doubt it. By now Coach Self has moved on to next year’s team like he should. It is afterall his job to Coach the Kansas Jayhawks Basketball Team. If you are not on the bench, in the heat of battle, it is Arm Chair Quarterbacking.
“Of Course UK was young too”! I thought with you, it was Championship or Bust? Which is it? UK lost, they did the same thing our 2012 team did. Made it to the Championship game based on a lot of late game heroics, but in the end they lost. I will take my chances with a Bill Self coached team. I like the program he has built here at Kansas. I think we will have another exciting ride and I am looking forward to it. Feel free to cheer for all the other teams you speak so glowingly of.
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This has been another ripping good read.
It distills to:
a) keep playing m2m with very rare junk zones, because it has gotten us 80% winning, 10 league titles, and a ring;
b) play some m2m with a lot more aggressives zones, because some teams that have won more rings have done tis;
c) no one is really saying go the Full Boeheim and zone all the time with some very rare m2m.
Folks are overlooking a real defensive innovation of this past season that may change the game.
It involves switching between two zones, or switching between zone and m2m during a single possession. Let’s call this “Morphing Defense” to avoid the confusion with switching m2m defense.I never saw any offense handle morphing defense well. Its tricky to defend this way, but to me it is the way to go on defense under the new rules. Here is why.
Under the new rules, offense is now more than ever a game of shoot the trey, drive the lane for high percentage 2 and a FT, or alley-oop for the 100% two.
Morphing defense nearly ends the alley-lop, because you cannot tell when they are going to morph on you wreck the timed play that requires offenders to know where the defenders are going to be to time the pass and the jump.
Morphing defense may be even harder on driving the lane, because the driver no longer knows when the lane he is looking at is going to morph out of existence.
The morphing defense also is problematic for trifectation, because it confuses curl screens and ball screens to get open looks for treys. And these are the two most popular ways other than kick outs to get open trey looks. Morphing defense also makes the kick out shooter at least uneasy whether the defensive recovery will be m2m or not.
I am so bullish on morphing defenses that I want to see morphing defenses used end to end. I want every defensive possession (note: I introduce the notion of a defensive possession here to convey the idea that we possess the MOFOs on defense, not just the ball on offense) to start in a 1-1-1-2 alignment before the ball is about to be inbounded. As the ball is inbounded sometimes maintains 1-1-1-2, sometimes morphs into 1-2-1-1, other times into 2-2-1, other times m2m. Once half court is reached it falls into a m2m that morphs into a zone, or vice versa. Some times it morphs 5 seconds,sometimes it morphs every 10 seconds, sometimes just once.
The goal is for the offense to have make one or two defensive reads in full court, then one or two defensive reads in half court. I am pretty convinced that no D1 offense can impose its offensive game on that much defensive morphing. The offense is outside its comfort zone the entire 40 minutes of play. The pressing does not need to be balls to the wall all of the time. Sometimes high pressure, sometimes not. The game is to disrupt with misrecognition and spike the TOs and the “discomfort” level.
Morphing defense is THE END of offensive players getting in zones. It is the end of OAD offenses ever winning the disruption stat unless they play morphing defense, too.
I’m happy with Self’s system as it is.
If I were UConn’s fans I would be happy with what Calhoun and Kevin Ollie Ball.
If I were a UK fan, I would be happy with CalBall.
If I were a Duke fan, I would be happy with ConsonantBall.
But all of these offenses are going to get wrecked by morphing defense.
The bizarre elegance of morphing defense is that even its breakdowns ensure recognition problems for every kind of offense being run.
The calculus of morphing defense goes something like this. They can’t effectively attack what they cannot read effectively. Defense always has the edge in morphing.
Frankly, I am amazed Self has not gone to this long before. His junk 3-2 is a very limited form of morphing defense itself.
I can usually come up with a counter for any defense, but morphing defense is an absolute bitch to counter.
There will be one.
But we could win a lot of games before it is figured out.
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@HighEliteMajor HEM, I think your overall premise is very well put, and its definitely something deserving serious consideration by Self (we hope). Even if just from a variability standpoint, making Self’s teams more unpredictable, and harder to scout, harder to prepare for. I really like that your proposals would accomplish alot of that.
I DO think that we could spend maybe 20-30% of our time incorporating other defensive strategies…and maybe now with a core group of experienced players (who’ve tasted defeat), we may have a bit more practice time to incorporate more advanced tactics, and broaden our repertoire. And have the player-motivation to allow focused learning…
And we can differ in the severity of the “problem”, but your quote “if our personnel are so incompetent at m2m that to have a chance to win a national championship in a particular season…” touches on perhaps THE main problem in the season: defense. Would you consider it mutually exclusive for a ball club to be soo incompetent in an area, to be a ‘legit’ title contender in that same season? It seems to have a mutually exclusive feel to it…Also, we were pretty incompetent at our zone-busting offense. What a double fork in us, is what I say.
The other white elephant at the table in our discussion here about Self’s stubborness or flexibility…is that decent coaches, with BETTER ball clubs than Embiid-less KU also flamed out and got beat–Billy Donovan’s FL got beat and didnt even score 55pts (shots didnt fall?), . Didnt even make the Final Four. I find it almost unfair to blast Self for what he did with such a green team, when well-known coaches with more experienced, D-playing squads ALSO DID NOT MAKE THE FINAL 4. One could say that Calipari might be the most ‘practiced’ at getting the most out of freshmen, young talent…but that is only a partially oranges-oranges comparison, as his frosh are the most ready to play from Day 1 compared to anybody elses frosh. And one could counterpoint that Self’s 3 uberfrosh (Wiggy, Selden, Biid) were his best players. But then you could countercounterpoint that the fact Ellis and Tharpe, both returning players were not up to par on both ends of the court, is a sign of bad coaching, right?
Arizona doesnt make the Final 4 with a loaded squad that plays D. Michigan doesnt make it. Louisville doesnt make it. Does the fact that it was KY knocking them out bring up its own discussion? MichiganState, a tough veteran, upperclassmen team, with everybody healthy…doesnt make the Final 4. Syracuse…no.1 ranked for most of the season, doesnt make the Final 4. I’m still not sure how to stratify WSU’s perfect season with that S.o.Sched asterisk…They were a competent team…Villanova got beat, looking overmatched in their final game. Man, we looked overmatched against Stanford.
Finally, the point about the Stanford game and finding different ways to get teammates involved and Self’s limited capabiltiy team getting scouted accurately by Dawkins, who “looked at what other teams did to beat KU”–is what any opposing coach would do, right? Not just Dawkins. What if Self’s timeouts and playcalls were made within the framework of what he thought his kids could reliably execute (with their limited pkgs)…and Mason feeding the bigs, and Wiggins attacking were the gameplan. The point has been made that Mason could have had 6 more assists if paint buckets were made, right? Wiggins did NOT get favorable whistles, even getting 2pts taken off the scoreboard.
I just cannot put this team’s multiple-area incompetencies in any NC discussion. No, I think KU deserved to sit at home, as there was much better offense, defense, and toughness being displayed by almost every team that made the Elite8. The operating assumption is that Self did what he could within the Oct.-March timeframe with this squad. The statistical shortcomings tell the story. This team was NOT championship material, especially without Embiid.
Why did zone defenses bother kill this team, while the 2008 Champs devoured zone defenses? Touch that answer, and this discussion ends. Competence vs Incompetence, but same coach. What’s the difference between 2008 and 2013? Both had multiple MickeyDs and top50 guys. Was Self flexible or inflexible in 2008? Or was he the same in 2008? How was Self in 2012’s Champgame run? Flexible or inflexible or the same?
(All this a friendly point-counterpoint debate)
Now we could start an entirely different discussion about what some other coach would have done with these same 2013-14 Jayhawks…maybe the result would have played out differently, or not. Who knows?
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What this thread shows, in a macro sense, is that no matter which coach LOSES a game, he will be under scrutiny. Rightly or wrongly only depends on your point of view and personal take on the big picture.
I think its safe to say almost all KU fans want an Elite8 or Final4 type run (more than just another Conf championship)…and honestly, being a top10 squad and a 1 or 2seed every single year it is reasonable to “hope” (not “expect”, there’s a difference in connotation) for an Elite8 or Final4 run with such a team.
Regarding defense, and the 2 losses we had despite scoring 83+ points…If we had better D to get those 2 more wins, we likely get a 1seed, and the whole path changes, doesnt it? And Self looks like a champ for getting a group of kiddies to a 1seed, while Calipari took his group of kiddies from preseason No.1 to out of the top 25.
I also think in these discussions we get too polarized, wanting to paint each other in the half-empty or half-full camps…Its not that easy. Maybe the majority is in the middle: People may like Self’s system and our W/L record and BigXII dominance, but are also uneasy about early exits in the Tourney.
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@jaybate 1.0 I’ve read this 4 times. This reminds me of a Chinese fire drill. Mass chaos maybe.
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Incompetent? Green, young, nervous, inexperienced, etc…would better describe a team that replaced 5 starters. Incompetent? So disrespectful. I am proud of this young group. Who knows how far they could have gone with a lucky bounce or two and Embiid in the lineup. All of the sudden, defense gets a lot better.
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@KansasComet if you fall back on missed shots as the reason for a loss, you can do that every loss. We lost to UNI because we missed shots. VCU too. Bradley? Yep. Bucknell? Of course. The converse must thus be true. The only reason we beat Memphis was that we made shots.
Self has defined his defense by their field goal percentage defense before. That assumes that shots are contested. Contested shots are different than open shots. Against Stanford, is it even debatable that we had very few open looks? Why were we faced with a situation where we got so few open looks?
You focus on me saying “so incompetent.” This is the context – “However, if our personnel are so incompetent at man that to have a chance to win a national championship in a particular season, we have to go zone primarily, then we should.”
The point is to illustrate that if our man defense is so bad that we can’t win a title with it, shouldn’t we explore alternatives? Wasn’t that the case this season?
I admire your defense of Self and all things KU. And you’re right, if we make more shots, we probably win. I just think that it goes a bit deeper than that, that’s all.
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" I think the issue with EJ’s 2013 Hawks were that they had Withey (220lbs) and Kevin Young (180lbs) in the paint. And frosh Ellis. NO BRUTE FACTOR"
This years UCONN didn’t have a brute factor… didn’t have near the interior players we had on that team.
I agree though… the big fighters in 2012 were TT and TRob. But then, when players like that leave, someone has to pick up the slack. And we’ll never have a more senior team than that one. Outside of BMac… everyone else graduated.
We should have been able to grind out victories. We shouldn’t have really needed a dominant force on offense. Defense should have won it for us that year. Kind of makes me question the old saying… “offense wins games, defense wins championships!”
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@drgnslayr One thing that struck me about this team is that they weren’t very smart. I don’t know about academically smart, but they weren’t very basketball smart. They were athletic - gifted, in fact. But they seemed to vanish a lot on defense and when they weren’t running that bizarre shuffle on offense, they acted like they didn’t know where they were or what they were doing half the time. Much of that can be attributed to youth. I think Frankamp can help that situation greatly. Whether he’s a point guard or not, I don’t know, but when he’s in the game you can practically see the wheels turning. He seems to have very good court vision and he doesn’t throw the ball away.
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That is exactly how it will appear and feel to an opposing offense, too, and this is why this paradigm shift will temporarily destroy the offensive dimension of basketball. A morphing defense causes far fewer minutes for an offense to recognize effectively how to attack effectively. This means that unless the opposing team plays the same morphing defense, your offense gets way more minutes of playing and scoring with effective recognition. This biases you to win. It is the unfair advantage everyone is always looking for.
“Fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of man.”–George Patton
Playing a zone every time down the floor is the stupidest form of basketball defense, because it is the purest “fixed fortification” in basketball. The offense knows exactly which player will be where on the floor each time down the floor.
There are two reasons the zone works so well. First, it keeps the bigs near the basket rim protecting ALL THE TIME; i.e., not time waisted guarding high posts. This lowers many opposing team’s shooting percentages and increases rebounding effectiveness. The second reason zone works so well for full zone teams is that that most coaches and players don’t practice, or play against it full time and so coaches have troubles communicating how to break zones and players have troubles mastering recognizing seams and range of motion and aren’t comfortable with all the double teaming that results with inappropriate action and penetration. All scorers say they have to get to a place where they are reacting and not thinking. A zone is a different look that makes scorers, especially unseasoned ones, think instead of react. The outside shooters usually quit thinking the quickest, and get back to reacting quickest, but even take a trip or two to adjust. For this reason, zones can be very effective early in a game and because games are unfolding complexities with time constraints, they are inordinately sensitively dependent on initial conditions. A 5-10 point lead early from frustrated recognition, rather than from just having a cold stretch, completely turns the dynamic of the rest of the unfolding game in the favor of the team that is zoning and getting the early lead. But over the course of a game a skilled coach and patient players inexorably get comfortable with the zone and inexorably find the place to attack it and the player to attack it with. The only time this does not happen is if you have such inferior talent that your three impact players hold no MUA, even after they get comfortable (frankly a rarity, if the coach is any good at positioning the impact players against the zone after the first time out). But in that case, where no MUA is held anywhere, unless you can disrupt even more defensively than the zone team, then you lose regardless of what you do defensively, or offensively. Boeheim likely gets most of his wins with early leads from troubled recognition and holds onto those leads with controlling the defensive glass and giving fewer second shots, while at the same time getting to the foul line more frequently than the opponent. That is the winning calculus of zone.
But if you have two 40% trifectates, 3 impact men (two with MUA), a guy who can either score or feed from the high post at the FT line, an explosive, disruptive m2m that hedges and helps away on scoring opps, and two bigs that can glass vacc big time, then you beat the zone 9 times out of ten, no matter how good they are at playing it, because over the course of the game, your hedging, helping m2m is creating fewer and fewer open looks, as it learn the opponents preferred offensive actions, while your offense’s recognition problems are melting away and your team is getting more and more open looks.
However, playing a non-switching m2m every time down the floor is the second stupidest form of basketball defense, because the offense knows exactly which man will be on which man and so knows exactly who holds the greatest MUA and so knows who to stretch to get open, and who to screen to get open, and against whom and where to drive the ball to get a bucket and a free throw.
But the reality is that good coaches don’t coach m2m without variable help; i.e., without hedging and switching, and changing who guards who from time to time without switching.
The obvious reason great coaches play m2m is m2m is that it is easier to turn an m2m into a mobile fortification than it is a zone. Good m2m defense constantly mixes up help, i.e., who hedges and who switches, based on MUAs. About all you can do with a zone is intermittently trap at the same locations with the same combinations of guys.
Early in a season Self forces players to learn how to fight over screens; i.e., he holds hedging and switching to a minimum. Next he introduces hedging. Next he introduces switching. Some times he will reverse the order based on which players need to learn what, or based on some particularly tough early opponent. But by an large he brings in the defense in pieces just as he does the offense. By March, the the defense, if the players are good natural defenders that buy into defense first, KU guards everywhere on the floor well, and ramps intensity of defensive pressure up and down to keep the opponent off balance, while conserving as much of the energy budget for offense as possible. Remember, everyone in a zone has to move side to side whenever the ball moves. In m2m, at least 2 guys are moving very little with each pass. So, while m2 is very taking to play at a high level of pressure, at average levels of pressure more frequenty played at, a lot of energy is being conserved in m2m that is being wasted in zone. Zone requires a constant expenditure of an even level of energy. m2m requires short bursts of hard guarding and then lots down times. It is these downtimes that favor the explosive highly athletic player and allow him to do spectacular things. And as the game wears on, you see m2m teams continuing to make explosive plays, whereas zone teams, if they have been being subjected to steady ball movement forcing all of them to move constantly, make fewer and fewer explosive plays on defense.
Having laid out the strengths and weaknesses of zone and m2m, I will summarize that both have weaknesses to attack and the great underlying strength of both is when they are making recognition difficult for offenses.
Repeated for emphasis: DEFENSES ARE MOST EFFECTIVE NOT WHEN THE OPPONENT IS LOOKING FOR THE WEAKNESS IN WHAT HE RECOGNIZES, BUT WHEN THE OPPONENT IS TRYING TO RECOGNIZE WHAT HE IS ATTACKING.
A corollary is: OFFENSES NEVER SCORE WHILE THEY ARE TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT THEY ARE ATTACKING.
Henry Iba, Dean Smith and Larry Brown ‘recognized’ the problem created by teams switching from zone to m2m and back again on succeeding possessions, or even during possessions, and tried to partially solve the problem by developing the hi-lo offense, that was elaborated into the Carolina Passing offense. It was/is an single offense that is run against both zone and m2m.
But the Iba/Smith/Brown solution is only a partial solution to the problem. It keeps teams from having to learn to offenses and decided which one to run after a switch; that far it is an effective solution.
But it does not solve the player’s recognition problem of having to recognize the defensive set in order to choose the different options (“actions”) within the single offense that are best to attack, and those options vary in the high low/Carolina passing offense. Against Stanford it took three quarters of the game for our bigs to recognize the zone and get a post man to the free throw line every time down the floor and pass to him, so that he can face basket and choose the right action: shoot, drive, feed low post, or fake drive and kick out. And different zones require the ball to go elsewhere than the high post.
So: recognition of defense is still the Achilles heel of ALL offenses, even when the same offensive sets are used, the optimal actions within them require correct recognition to select them.
THE REASON TO MOVE TO MORPHING DEFENSES IS THAT THE NEW RULES ENCOURAGE OFFENSES TO PURSUE SCORING AT THE FOUL LINE.
The old advantage of m2m–variable help–is diminished to practically no advantage at all by the new rules. Self and other coaches solved the problem by going to non-disruption defense, low pressure defense to keep the other team off the foul line, while using superior impact players to force KU onto the foul line more. The best teams this past season were the ones that created the biggest positive margin in fouling; i.e., in keeping the opponent off the line and in getting one’s own team onto the line. Low pressure, non-disruption defense accomplished that by minimizing fouling, and by leaving the most gas in the tank at the other end for impact plays that drew high percentage buckets and a FT.
Alas, the good coaches figured out the defensive solution to that scheme was pretty simple. Rough the high profile OADs that can’t afford to get injured up big time and don’t foul the rest of their players. It was a beautiful solution. There was zero chance that Wiggins was willing to get injured, once it became clear that in the Madness, a Stanford guy was willing to put him down hard every time he played for a high percentage bucket with a FT. The unspoken rule of the new game today is: OADs cannot afford to finish all the time. The injury risk is too high. And if your best guy can afford to take an injury more than the opposing team’s best OAD can afford to take an injury, then all you have to do is prove to him early that your are going to make him pay on the way, at the rim, and after, then the coach that wants to keep recruiting OADs and the OAD have no choice but leave the OAD out on the perimeter as a decoy most of the game.
So why is morphing defense the answer to OADs that can’t finish against teams with best players that can afford to finish?
Because morphing defense sharply ramps up the other team’s TOs and keeps the other team out of its comfort zone to a point that one can afford to park the OAD on the perimeter to avoid injury and only use him in situations where he can create a little space and shoot without getting injured.
Offense for OAD teams is entirely about how to score without risking injury to the OADs. Its a very different kind of offensive game. It is much more like what the NBA plays. The great athletes of the NBA could score on each other at will, but don’t because of the unwritten rules about who will and won’t be permitted at the rim. Superstars get the most lenient treatment, but even they are at risk of getting hammered, if they abuse the privilege. This is why all the great perimeter scorers in the NBA eventually have to learn to be great at the create a space game that slayr has attributed definitively to Kobe Bryant.
In D1, the OADs get almost as much of a sweet whistle as the NBA superstars do. But there is one big difference. The early rounds of the NCAA tournament are loaded with teams that don’t have to give a damn about hammering an OAD. These teams have one and only one shot and they are not playing to be treated according to a ‘code’ next season the way the NBA players have to do even in the playoffs. If you are an NBA pro and take Lebron down to win a best of seven series, you have to come back and face the music for the rest of your that you want to be as long as possible. And you know that if you take Lebron down at the rim, you are basically a walking deadman for the reset of your career. The payback will come. So: the NBA has a code. The superstar gets to dazzle the audience from time to time at the iron, but not all the time. The non starts get to go to iron sometimes, but not all the time. Bottom line, in the NBA, you have to learn how to create “safe” space, and score; that is what is permitted on a regular basis without pay back. That is how men play the game professionally. If you can beat me creating space, then hard guarding maybe, but no ending your career. It is a code that butters everyone’s bread for the long haul.
But in D1?
You’ve got to watch out for the merchandize, even if you don’t abuse your ability to get to the hole, because there are a bunch of guys that are not so much One and Done (OAD), as One and Gone (OAG). This one tourney appearance was their gig. Afterwards, its out to the real world, not the NBA.
In today’s game, defense, after a brief move to the back burner, should come quickly back to the front burner as morphing defense.
Its the surest way to win by having your OAD and having to underuse him too.
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Sorry… I was talking about our 2013 team that was packed with seniors!
Funny you mention they (this year’s team) were not the smartest with basketball IQ. And outside of running the shuffle on offense, looked lost. I kind of remember the 2013 team doing that on offense and getting stuck. When we were unable to engage BMac, we seemed lost.
Personally… I’d like to see us use some of the things the Mayor uses at ISU on offense. But then, you have to have players that really hunger for a one-on-one offensive attack. Fred is extremely good at creating rapid forming iso’s. If you watch tape of his offense you will see an area of the court (on offense) that is empty, and then a slasher comes off a back screen or merely sets good position to take an interior pass and then they finish with a one-on-one near the basket. Really every player on their team could finish near the hole in a one-on-one situation. I think Fred carefully recruits players that are explosive and capable in these situations. It pays off.
ISU can do anything in that offensive set. Fred can draw up anything to work, there is total flexibility. And they have the potential to dribble-drive, too. His offense is a closer mimic to a true NBA set.
It would be nice to see us incorporate some of his tweaks on offense. We need a more open structure so we have more to counter teams that put up stiff defense.
The problem we have is we are too structured and too rigid. Our offense works great for most of the year, and we put up good numbers, so we get too confident running the same set from November thru March. But the teams that advance in March are those teams that can bend and flex to meet the moment. The teams that advance come out and execute a specific plan to beat a specific team. This is where we get nailed. In recent years it is a known entity that to beat KU you do it on the perimeter by putting high guard pressure on our 1 and 2s. Teams do that because we don’t recruit true PGs… we recruit combo guards.
We will always be susceptible to an upset loss from a team that has quality, athletic guards who know how to apply pressure using x-axis basketball. If we had played UCONN this past year they would have kicked our arse.
Like I’ve said a million times now… until we get high-level guard play from our 1 and 2 (especially at point), we won’t be bringing home any trophies in April.
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@jaybate 1.0
"“Fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of man.”–George Patton
Playing a zone every time down the floor is the stupidest form of basketball defense, because it is the purest “fixed fortification” in basketball. The offense knows exactly which player will be where on the floor each time down the floor. "
Love the Patton reference! Very interesting post, JB!
I never really thought about it before, but it makes sense for opposing teams to play rough ball with potential OADs… especially the players that tend to try to avoid contact in the first place.
Your point on ‘fixed fortifications’ is completely valid. The key to operating an effective M2M is to bring high pressure in certain situations. So suddenly a guard gets pinched into a double-team and the rest of the defense monitors where that free guard goes and hedges over to flex into a kind of zone defense. This is true NBA-style M2M. The defense is not going to stop every play or come close. The defense looks for X-amount of situations in a game that can turn their way and create TOs or bad shots against the shot clock. By creating X-amount of those situations in a game, they consider their defense successful or not. It is known that on some nights a hot offense will override everything. So it is all about creating X-amount of situations that are potential defensive win possessions. And if they meet those numbers and still get beat by a hot shooting team, they get beat knowing they still played good defense. This is crucial in the league. To not change something that isn’t broke and to know how they are beat because all teams in the NBA have hot nights where they are unstoppable.
Some of those X-amount of situations involve keeping certain players from scoring from their sweet spot and situation on the floor. The NBA is all about statistics and forcing players to create offense in their less effective manner.
Think about all that… and then think about college basketball… and how unsophisticated it is. And how it doesn’t really take a sophisticated plan to win games, even in March. Any NBA team would shellac the very best D1 teams… not just because they have the most talent… but because they know how to execute a sophisticated strategy.
Sometimes I think we just expect too much from college players. These are kids and they are still playing kids basketball. The NBA is man’s league. No Boys Allowed.
And this gets into the concept of Self being successful in the NBA. He hasn’t shown the level of sophistication needed in execution in college to make it in the NBA. Doesn’t mean he is incapable… but D1 just can’t produce that level of sophistication. That is why all these D1 coaches are a total crap shoot at the next level. And that is why there are big time surprises on who makes it and who doesn’t. Perhaps Ollie is a better candidate than Self as a pro coach. First… he knows the league better having been in the league for 15 years as a player. Self never made it in the league. It’s a different game. Might as well be soccer for Self… maybe even better because he would approach soccer with a completely open mind. Much of what Self does in D1 wouldn’t work in the league.
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@drgnslayr oh - I’m sorry. Actually, I got up at 4:00 am this morning and have been crazy busy at work (for a change). I really need to read more thoroughly before I comment.
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It actually worked out well with your comment… it tied elements of this year’s team with the year before! We still had those moments of running stagnant offense and weaves that lead to a knot instead of scoring fabric.
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@HighEliteMajor No need to spin it. You described their play using the words “so incompetent”. I described your comments as “so disrespectful”. No confusion. I am not falling back on missed shots. You said no one could make an argument for Coach Self? I disagree.
