Bill Self, Where Are You? Incompetent 3-PT Defense
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@Hawk8086 Exactly. This is what wins games. Self is like Coach Klein in some games.
Self watching game film…
This is the Self needed during a game…
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approxinfinity said:
@HighEliteMajor you’re right on the money here. Doke’s defense alone led to 3 made wide open 3s. His apparent on-ball strategy was to slough off them enough to encourage the shot and then hope to alter their shot by flailing his arms at them. This was not defense.
That’s a great way of saying it - it looked like he was trying to encourage a shot. Doke is lazy. He gives effort when he wants to. The game with 17 rebounds vs Milwaukee followed the game with Colorado where he had just 6 and was clearly going at a lower motor level.
Not defense at all.
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Regardless of my arm chair coaching and humor, its all good. This is what makes KU bball so damn fun.
Dream on JHawk Nation
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dylans said:
Is it philosophy or discipline?
It’s clearly philosophy. This is much like the Bob Sutton defense of the Chiefs in past seasons, but worse. We’ve seen the open looks over and over.
From the second article below:
Coach Bill Self, throughout his 16-year KU tenure, admits that he’s rarely strayed from an old-school mantra he’s talked about before: The key to winning is to get easy baskets and not give them up.
“A lot of it is philosophy,” Self said, “and how you think things should be defended.”
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Found these -
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HighEliteMajor said:
Doke is lazy. He gives effort when he wants to. The game with 17 rebounds vs Milwaukee followed the game with Colorado where he had just 6 and was clearly going at a lower motor level.
I don’t think I’d call it lazy, but this is semantics maybe. I’m not sure if he can help it. He’s a 300 lb guy trying to chase guys much lighter than him playing 30+ minutes. Like a soccer player, Doke is trying to find moments to rest in game, but that simply doesn’t translate in this game. Self acted on this late and gave Doke a long breather. And in fairness I don’t think Dave was very good in that stretch in the 4-1. But he has to be. Against a 5 out team our big simply cannot take plays off. If he needs to rest it should be on the pine.
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@approxinfinity The poor three point D is a misguided philosophy. @dylans asked the perfect question. You’re very kind to Doke. I’ll say, he is one for the more poorly conditioned players I’ve seen. I really think this contributes to his FT woes.
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Bill Self suffers from the same issue our local high school does. Not accepting that it isn’t 1992 anymore and guys can shoot the basketball from a 40 plus percentage from down town.
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HighEliteMajor said:
FarmerJayhawk said:
You always say it’s about results, not intention. Well, teams are shooting less than 30% against us from 3 this year, in the top quintile of Division 1.
Could we defend the line better? Sure. Is it worthy of a meltdown? Of course not. The results are what they are.
This response is much like saying the the drunk driver got home so all is good.
Did you even watch the game? Do you expect teams to just miss open looks? I challenge you to rewatch the game and have the stones to get back on here and disagree.
I’m sorry. On this point, this issue — this is a no doubter. We’ve already suffered embarrassment and elimination from the NCAA tourney because of this exact same issue.
And if you’re pointing to results, real results — newsflash, we lost. Did you see the wide open three that sealed our fate yesterday? Real results.
If Dotson made his free throws and we won, it wouldn’t change the risk analysis.
The Chiefs were 9-0 in 2003 and bet you would have said, “all is well.”
I was addressing the part of the post where you said ignore the outcome of the game. So I did. Just asking you to either admit results matter (top quintile in 3 pt% D) or they don’t (you just don’t like how it looks).
Anyhow, Self decided to allow the 3 because Nova isn’t a very good shooting team. They’re like 80th in the country in 3 pt FG%. Worse than us, who many on this board say can’t shoot a lick. So to your point, a 3 at a low percentage != an easy 2. Wright said himself they had to chuck it because they couldn’t get even a peek at the rim inside. Just me, but I’m not going to go all in chasing a team off the line who doesn’t hit them consistently.
I would have definitely said that since the Chiefs are a garbage organization.
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@FarmerJayhawk Our three point defense is ridiculously bad. There’s a difference in what you’ve said. Bill Self has gambled that folks will shoot a low percentage from three. We know that. I agree completely. Results matter - the only result I care about is if we win that national title. That’s it. 1988 we lost double digit games yet we remember that year much more fondly than any other years (but for 2008). The ultimate pain of losing in the tourney is devastating when we have NC quality roster. And what I’ve seen over the years is that Bill Self finds a way to sabotage our attempts to win a FF. Whether it be refusing to permit three point attempts, playing the same style of play after a big injury (Embiid), refusal to adjust to a team taking player away (Ellis), choosing to play a low level talent (then contradicting himself in later years about letting better talent play to develop), relying on security blankets (Brady, Traylor), and the ever present refusal to adjust.
The three point defense and refusal to prioritize to adjust to the current game is professional negligence.
That said, Bill Self is the single biggest reason we are an incredibly successful program. Without him getting us there, those items that stop us (in my little mind) from getting to the promised land (a NC) may not matter.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@FarmerJayhawk Our three point defense is ridiculously bad. There’s a difference in what you’ve said. Bill Self has gambled that folks will shoot a low percentage from three. We know that. I agree completely. Results matter - the only result I care about is if we win that national title. That’s it. 1988 we lost double digit games yet we remember that year much more fondly than any other years (but for 2008). The ultimate pain of losing in the tourney is devastating when we have NC quality roster. And what I’ve seen over the years is that Bill Self finds a way to sabotage our attempts to win a FF. Whether it be refusing to permit three point attempts, playing the same style of play after a big injury (Embiid), refusal to adjust to a team taking player away (Ellis), choosing to play a low level talent (then contradicting himself in later years about letting better talent play to develop), relying on security blankets (Brady, Traylor), and the ever present refusal to adjust.
The three point defense and refusal to prioritize to adjust to the current game is professional negligence.
That said, Bill Self is the single biggest reason we are an incredibly successful program. Without him getting us there, those items that stop us (in my little mind) from getting to the promised land (a NC) may not matter.
Our difference re: Nova is that I think allowing them to bomb away from 3 was the right call. They don’t shoot it well from there but are really good at action to get easy 2’s.
I’ll be very interested in how we defend Stanford, who is an elite shooting team at all levels.
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I’d like to see the defense engage from at least 10ft beyond the three point line. Just harass them all over the court. No easy looks. Stop conceding up to the three point line.
Do like nba teams are and draw a 4pt line on the practice court to get better spacing on offense and teach the defense to engage sooner/further out.
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truehawk93 said:
FarmerJayhawk said:
You always say it’s about results, not intention. Well, teams are shooting less than 30% against us from 3 this year, in the top quintile of Division 1.
Could we defend the line better? Sure. Is it worthy of a meltdown? Of course not. The results are what they are.
I think the results are what @HighEliteMajor is addressing. You seem perfectly content with the results. But you have to admit the results are getting old. They need to change and his points are his way of addressing these results. Intentions will NOT win games, results are all that matters. I’m sure Self “intends” to win every game. But you have to analyze and change your plan to get winning results. You can’t keep intentions that produce short fall results. Self is falling short with his intentions. His intentions and results are severely lacking, and frankly they seem to be getting all too common by the year. I’M NOT ADVOCATING FIRING. He just needs to tweak and tune his game prep a bit.
It’s early and we shall see if his intentions produce results. If this game is any indication, I’m concerned. We all say every year that when Self facing a bad game, “he’ll adjust.” Well…we’ll see.I would sure the hell hope you wasn’t ADVOCATING his firing that would be beyond funny
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@FarmerJayhawk are all teams 3%'s down this year, due to line moving back?
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
@FarmerJayhawk are all teams 3%'s down this year, due to line moving back?
I want to say 3 point shooting % is down about 2 points from last year. Which translates to .6 fewer makes per game assuming 30 attempts.
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The wide open looks from 3 bothered me the entire game. The final wide open look, with Dotson watching and kind of throwing a hand up, is the kind of defense I tell my 8th grade baller “doesn’t count as defense.” Maybe it was poetic justice that it went in, although I expected more effort from Dotson after he got his pocket picked at half court.
I do think the 3D philosophy is a big Achilles heel. It’s agonizing to watch a team miss open looks, knowing if they catch fire with, say, 8 minutes left, the game will be up for grabs even if KU is ahead.
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FarmerJayhawk said:
HighEliteMajor said:
@FarmerJayhawk Our three point defense is ridiculously bad. There’s a difference in what you’ve said. Bill Self has gambled that folks will shoot a low percentage from three. We know that. I agree completely. Results matter - the only result I care about is if we win that national title. That’s it. 1988 we lost double digit games yet we remember that year much more fondly than any other years (but for 2008). The ultimate pain of losing in the tourney is devastating when we have NC quality roster. And what I’ve seen over the years is that Bill Self finds a way to sabotage our attempts to win a FF. Whether it be refusing to permit three point attempts, playing the same style of play after a big injury (Embiid), refusal to adjust to a team taking player away (Ellis), choosing to play a low level talent (then contradicting himself in later years about letting better talent play to develop), relying on security blankets (Brady, Traylor), and the ever present refusal to adjust.
The three point defense and refusal to prioritize to adjust to the current game is professional negligence.
That said, Bill Self is the single biggest reason we are an incredibly successful program. Without him getting us there, those items that stop us (in my little mind) from getting to the promised land (a NC) may not matter.
Our difference re: Nova is that I think allowing them to bomb away from 3 was the right call. They don’t shoot it well from there but are really good at action to get easy 2’s.
I’ll be very interested in how we defend Stanford, who is an elite shooting team at all levels.
That is just beyond crazy. Not sure what you’re talking about. Nova is excellent at 3 point shooting. Villanova was shooting OVER 38% and ranked 25th in the NATION in 3 point percentage going into the game yesterday.
Bey, Swider and Moore were all over 40% going into yesterday. Those guys, by the grace of God, went 4-16 on largely open attempts.
This further highlights the complete foolishness of our defensive approach.
By consequence you agree with this statement because you were supporting leaving three point shooters alone, because you presumed they weren’t good. Thus I assume the opposite is true.
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
@FarmerJayhawk are all teams 3%'s down this year, due to line moving back?
looking at the National stats - yes I think they are for sure - - just like us I mean we are not shooting lights out but still lead the league in % - but across the board - - they are down
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HighEliteMajor said:
FarmerJayhawk said:
HighEliteMajor said:
@FarmerJayhawk Our three point defense is ridiculously bad. There’s a difference in what you’ve said. Bill Self has gambled that folks will shoot a low percentage from three. We know that. I agree completely. Results matter - the only result I care about is if we win that national title. That’s it. 1988 we lost double digit games yet we remember that year much more fondly than any other years (but for 2008). The ultimate pain of losing in the tourney is devastating when we have NC quality roster. And what I’ve seen over the years is that Bill Self finds a way to sabotage our attempts to win a FF. Whether it be refusing to permit three point attempts, playing the same style of play after a big injury (Embiid), refusal to adjust to a team taking player away (Ellis), choosing to play a low level talent (then contradicting himself in later years about letting better talent play to develop), relying on security blankets (Brady, Traylor), and the ever present refusal to adjust.
The three point defense and refusal to prioritize to adjust to the current game is professional negligence.
That said, Bill Self is the single biggest reason we are an incredibly successful program. Without him getting us there, those items that stop us (in my little mind) from getting to the promised land (a NC) may not matter.
Our difference re: Nova is that I think allowing them to bomb away from 3 was the right call. They don’t shoot it well from there but are really good at action to get easy 2’s.
I’ll be very interested in how we defend Stanford, who is an elite shooting team at all levels.
That is just beyond crazy. Not sure what you’re talking about. Nova is excellent at 3 point shooting. Villanova was shooting OVER 38% and ranked 25th in the NATION in 3 point percentage going into the game yesterday.
Bey, Swider and Moore were all over 40% going into yesterday. Those guys, by the grace of God, went 4-16 on largely open attempts.
This further highlights the complete foolishness of our defensive approach.
By consequence you agree with this statement because you were supporting leaving three point shooters alone, because you presumed they weren’t good. Thus I assume the opposite is true.
You’re willfully misrepresenting what I said. I said Nova isn’t a great 3 point shooting TEAM. Yes, they have some good shooters. Most teams do. But the fact is they’re a much better team shooting 2’s than 3’s, and were only shooting 35% from 3 against anyone in the KenPom top 100 coming into yesterday. It’s now 32%. My sense is great shooting teams do better than that. Typing something in bold doesn’t make it more true.
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@FarmerJayhawk They were 38.2% before our game. That’s in the top 25 of all D-1 schools. Bold emphasizes your purposeful misrepresentation.
Who on this planet can rationally think that giving up open three looks as part of a defensive strategy against Villanova is advisable?
Well two I guess. You and Self. Removing the word rationally.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@FarmerJayhawk They were 38.2% before our game. That’s in the top 25 of all D-1 schools. Bold emphasizes your purposeful misrepresentation.
Who on this planet can rationally think that giving up open three looks as part of a defensive strategy against Villanova is advisable?
Well two I guess. You and Self. Removing the word rationally.
What part of my answer misrepresentative? I cited Nova’s rank in 3 point shooting RIGHT NOW. Not my fault you can’t process it. I also cited they don’t shoot well against decent competition which you completely ignore since any data contrary to your narrative must obviously be Fake News or whatever people say now.
This debate is tired. Be sure to drop your suggestions in the Bill Self suggestion box complete with bold type and calling him irrational. That’ll surely convince him!
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Villanova is a good shooting 3 point team. It doesn’t matter if all 15 of them shoot the 3 well. I don’t see how the distinction matters much. When we had Svi, Devonte and Malik shooting 3s we were a pretty good 3 ball team. had their top 3 shot their 3 pt average this game would not have gone to the wire, and they got open looks.
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FarmerJayhawk said:
HighEliteMajor said:
@FarmerJayhawk They were 38.2% before our game. That’s in the top 25 of all D-1 schools. Bold emphasizes your purposeful misrepresentation.
Who on this planet can rationally think that giving up open three looks as part of a defensive strategy against Villanova is advisable?
Well two I guess. You and Self. Removing the word rationally.
What part of my answer misrepresentative? I cited Nova’s rank in 3 point shooting RIGHT NOW. Not my fault you can’t process it. I also cited they don’t shoot well against decent competition which you completely ignore since any data contrary to your narrative must obviously be Fake News or whatever people say now.
This debate is tired. Be sure to drop your suggestions in the Bill Self suggestion box complete with bold type and calling him irrational. That’ll surely convince him!
DAMMMM , TOUCHE Farmer and SCOREEEEEEEEEE lmao
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Malfunction Board Key A Had…
Got the key board fixed, but I think it was instructive of our defensive strategy. Bill did great adjusting his offensive strategy to shoot the 3 with a 4:1 set when he had shooters. However, even in those years, his Defensive strategy never adjusted.
Nova has now repeatedly shown us how to disrupt using a man defense that puts constant pressure on the perimeter. They have now repeatedly disrupted our offense via that philosophy when we’ve been the better team. (I’ll leave out the year they had 5 shooters on the floor, but if I recall correctly, they used the same defensive strategy and completely disrupted our flow).
I think it also a matter of discipline. By that I mean repetitive coaching on defensive approach. So when he tells players in game situations to stay with X, they’ ve been coached, disciplined in practice on the principles of help defense and they revert to form.
I say, make every player responsible for their player. You stay in front of them as if your life depended on it. You do not let them catch the ball anywhere on the court - or you run laps in practice. 5 positions. Smothering defense. Guard the line.
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Results are a funny thing.
They don’t always tell the truth.
KU has an elite defense this year. Period. No matter the philosophy, KU is long and athletic and disrupting opponents.
But that doesn’t mean they couldn’t be better than the results have shown so far this year. We are capable of dominating on defense. We have the depth, length and size to matchup with anyone. The question is, why don’t we do it? I do, to an extent, understand Bill not wanting to change. He wants the other team to adjust to us. The problem with that, is basketball has changed. The three point bombing from 4-5 positions on the floor is changing the game much like the Spread Offense did in College Football.
But here we are, and Bill is still trying to run the Wishbone on offense while running a 46 Bear to stop the run.
Imagine if Tony Bennett or Jay Wright had our roster. They would have this group with the #1 defense and it wouldn’t even be close. Ochai, Enaruna, Braun and Garrett are all plus rebounders for their position/size. So there is no need to play a true big at the 4. They would pressure the ball relentlessly and force you to drive the ball and shoot a contested layup. They wouldn’t give up 3s. They’d force you to shoot over the wingspan of our 6’5 guards and pressure the hell out of passing lanes so that the offense had no flow and terrible ball movement.
The only reason this team isn’t the #1 defensive team in the country right now is Bill Self will not adapt. He may be able to overcome it and win a NC. I believe that. But his stubbornness is one of the roadblocks.
He’s a great coach. But he could still be better.
