Naming names
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KUSTEVE said:
Utah got the book thrown at them. Look at these overwhelming penalties:
$5,000 fine (self-imposed)
8% reduction in official visits in 2018-19 (self-imposed)
A show-cause penalty lasting one year for the associate head coach, including a one-week suspension from Nov. 13-Nov. 19, 2019.
A prohibition of all four countable men’s basketball coaches from off-campus recruiting for a five-day period from July 11-15, 2018 (self-imposed)
A reduction of men’s basketball in-person recruiting days from 130 to 113 for the 2018-19 academic year (self-imposed)
I’m surprised they didn’t take dessert away for a week…
That, my friend, is funny!!
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I feel like we’ve underutilized most of our players over the years because of not being focused enough on development. I gripe and I gripe and I gripe… and I’m yet to see players executing the very basic elements of the game, like sealing the boards or hedging properly. When players stick around, they tend to improve in the basics some… at least better than OADs.
Look at a player like TRele. That guy was effective and he had so many factors working against him. He wasn’t extremely athletic… no great size… but he brought defense with him. I wouldn’t go so far as to say he mastered defense… but compared to almost every player we’ve had since him, none can compare. In a very different area, Withey is another fine example. Here was a guy that showed up on campus and was a complete klutz. Look what he did with his game by the time he graduated. And he could have reached his potential sooner but he had to chuck down protein shakes like his life depended on it. Kevin Young… the guy was bone skinny. But he understood hustle. He contributed far and above for what he physically brought to the game.
Where is the example of the uber athlete? The OAD? The TAD?
I’m sick of the drama. I’m sick of the prima donnas. I’m sick of dragging our school in the mud. I’m sick of having “cosmetic players.”
I want to see real basketball again. I want us to recruit players that will show up after their homework and work on their game until 2am every night. They can sleep later in life.
These players exist. They are scattered across America… diffused in a landscape of mediocrity.
I want to see players EARN their cred… not the ones who arrive on campus with a herd of media and admirers behind them.
We can’t win big with lower star players if we don’t have the right developmental environment. We haven’t had that environment in the past. We have to deal with the distractions from the frenzy following elite players that probably never watched a Kansas game growing up.
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@drgnslayr I’ve been thinking the same thing. Our overall D for the past 4 or 5 years has really sucked, and I miss it. Imo alot of it is due to Bill just not having the horses and having to get away from the high-low (and losing his assistants), or am I wrong? I know one thing, I am really looking forward to this season - gonna have some bigs again.
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@drgnslayr I get where you’re coming from, but you’ve got to take talent. I don’t hate the TAD Dotson. I expect improvement from him next season. His decision making initiating the offense should improve, as should his ability to attack the rim. I hope he’s worked on his shot, it didn’t feel like he could sustain the percentage he shot last year with a bigger sample size (like Sr Miles).
Other impact OAD/TADs - McLemore and Arthur the later of which dropped 20 in the national championship game.
You also never know who’s going to stick around like a Rush or Harrison Barnes type. Recruiting would be easy if you could just have your pick of kids, but all Bill can do is choose among the ones that want to come. Can you freaking believe some kids would rather play at Duke?!?
I can’t money must be involved.
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This is not that complicated. If a guy is a presumed OAD, you skip him. Period. McLemore and Arthur were not presumed OADs … they were the perfect recruits. Highly ranked guys that were not presumed to turn pro after one season.
If there happens to be a player that comes in, not a presumed OAD, blows the doors off his freshman season, and then goes to the draft, that’s the way it goes. That isn’t really the issue. It’s whether, as a program, we just say no to presumed OADs.
The point is that the garbage that comes with the presumed OADs – the ones that everyone knows are just here for the season – is not worth getting a guy that then stays two years, or whatever, here or there.
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Q had great size for his position and he was a zero. Actually… a minus. The old saying really is what it is about… “it isn’t the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog.”
I’m with you and excited for our current team. Go to Kusports and read about Braun. That kid is going to be a baller. He’s getting after it and I bet he turns out to be the player I keep talking about.
I hear you. And Devon is a keeper. He wasn’t that top elite coming in and the players I’m talking about. He is at that top talent level we should consider. Even he rides a certain border because of leaving early. The guys who leave early are very disruptive to the continuity of the team. We need the 3, 4 and 5 year guys to produce the “glue” we need.
I realize there is the school rep of being a “blue blood.” Many thinks that means we should be able to fill the roster with top shelf players. And we have been able to score many over these past years. But I don’t think any of them really helped us get anywhere. We didn’t win a title with them. Not a single title. And many of those players brought us trouble… distractions… and then, the total break in continuity by leaving early. They really keep us from developing the team unity we need for several reasons. First… they are treated different from other players. They have their own rules on being pulled from games, etc. Then… they leave early so we have a big hole in our roster where another player would have returned to develop continuity and it is the continuity that truly helps create team unity.
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@drgnslayr I’m with you on the OADs, have never been a big fan, just don’t see a huge upside. Anyway, that stupid rule will soon be gone the way of the dodo, and I’m glad.
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I hope you are right on ending OADs. I think they’ve been a huge negative to the game. Not trying to demonize the elites… obviously, they possess some of the best talent and are just trying to get to the pros and start earning a living asap.
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@drgnslayr Trade Zion for Grimes and last year would’ve been a bit more successful imo. Ie a streak of 15 instead of 0.
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Very possible, but no guarantees. Team dynamics are complex and there are no certainties.
I like the idea of having a team full of guys who are in a similar boat. The way we create consistent success is through careful recruiting of hungry players with plenty of potential and then have the right development program. I wonder what would happen if we had a sports psychologist somewhere in this formula? Someone specifically looking at team dynamics.
I could see us looking at recruiting players together from the same HS team. Carefully evaluate their relationship, looking for certain characteristics.
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David Silver said as recently as May that the OAD rule will soon be gone. Once it is, I’m assuming Self won’t have a problem recruiting top shelf guys that want to develop.
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Last year’s team was flawed. Unless Grimes had come in and been a Ben McLemore or better type player, its unlikely KU’s roster would have gotten us through the Big 12 last season. Even if Grimes had been that good, there’s still a chance that with two strong teams in the conference, KU may not have been able to knock off both. Last year was the perfect storm - flawed KU team, two other programs with one of their best teams in the last two decades (probably the best Texas Tech team ever). I think Tech wins the conference last year even if Grimes had come in and met expectations, unless he played like a top 3 pick (something that even the most optimistic people would not have been thinking last year).
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justanotherfan said:
Last year’s team was flawed. Unless Grimes had come in and been a Ben McLemore or better type player, its unlikely KU’s roster would have gotten us through the Big 12 last season. Even if Grimes had been that good, there’s still a chance that with two strong teams in the conference, KU may not have been able to knock off both. Last year was the perfect storm - flawed KU team, two other programs with one of their best teams in the last two decades (probably the best Texas Tech team ever). I think Tech wins the conference last year even if Grimes had come in and met expectations, unless he played like a top 3 pick (something that even the most optimistic people would not have been thinking last year).
Last year’s team was so short-handed. No Doke. No Silvio.
I think the season could have turned out differently had we been at full strength.
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Eliminating the early entry rule into the NBA would only partially end the OAD situation. Even allowing players back to school after testing NBA waters is only a partial help.
There will always be the players that are straddling the talent level to jump sooner so they will go a year in college.
And we should all support players improving as fast as possible to make a living. We know the risks are high and they need a quick path.
But we also see the harm in creating a cohesive team. Revolving door teams are not good for the game or for any school. Having even one or two players leaving OAD can create issues.
Removing special treatments for players is a different story. That is a coaching philosophy requiring discipline and the removal of thinking greedy about talent.
I know I’m preaching. And I question my own beliefs. Wanting players to sacrifice a big chunk of the college experience is something I question about my beliefs. Sometimes it feels like I put my own desires and expectations above the players with this concept of development. Obviously, there needs to be some balance with the players.
But I do believe “my way” is a better choice than our current direction. I just need an occasional “smack in the head” reality check on what is fair and quality to the players. They deserve a quality college experience even if they are vying for multi-million dollar contracts later. There has to be a line drawn somewhere concerning “sacrifice.”
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Kcmatt7 said:
justanotherfan said:
Last year’s team was flawed. Unless Grimes had come in and been a Ben McLemore or better type player, its unlikely KU’s roster would have gotten us through the Big 12 last season. Even if Grimes had been that good, there’s still a chance that with two strong teams in the conference, KU may not have been able to knock off both. Last year was the perfect storm - flawed KU team, two other programs with one of their best teams in the last two decades (probably the best Texas Tech team ever). I think Tech wins the conference last year even if Grimes had come in and met expectations, unless he played like a top 3 pick (something that even the most optimistic people would not have been thinking last year).
Last year’s team was so short-handed. No Doke. No Silvio.
I think the season could have turned out differently had we been at full strength.
We win the league with Doke easily submit post
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We still would’ve been drilled by Auburn in the 2nd round and Doke wouldn’t have made a difference. We were toast against 4 out teams last year.
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KUSTEVE said:
We still would’ve been drilled by Auburn in the 2nd round and Doke wouldn’t have made a difference. We were toast against 4 out teams last year.
Add in a right minded Vick and playing the right defense, 4/1 teams wouldn’t scare me one bit. Now, Auburn in particular, that team was on a roll. If their big guy doesn’t get injured, they win the NC I think. But I think with our full projected roster, we were the best team.
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@HighEliteMajor So, you think a Vick would’ve made all the difference in our perimeter defense against 4 out teams. Interesting. The year before, the “right minded” Vick didn’t seem to help us much against 4 out teams, or 5 out teams, as was the case with Villanova. Our weak link over the years has been perimeter defense - last year was the worst. I’m going to have to agree to disagree on your assertion about fielding a competent lineup last year that wouldn’t get buried from the 4 out. It’s not every year we get drilled by 30 in conference play, and get down by 25 at the half in the NCAA tournament.
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No doubt… our perimeter defense over recent years has stunk.
I’m not sure what our guards are being taught… but they need to guard space less and guard players more.
This is part of that “developmental program” I’m talking about. Teaching players how to hedge. They need an education in “close-out timing” and then apply the proper hedge spacing.
We guard a lot of useless space… space where nothing is happening.
Players need to realize where that space is and the importance of getting out of that space.
When you see defensive breakdowns, often caused by offenses with proper spacing and good ball movement, there are defenders standing in that useless space. Standing! So the defense isn’t 5 players at that moment guarding… usually 4 or 3 defenders. That’s called a “breakdown.”
Players need to move their feet more and quickly travel through the useless space to get where they can defend. Stop standing where they are actually not even counted as being a defender anymore.
This is the sort of situation that drives guys like me crazy. I’d love to see real defense at Kansas! The only way to get there is to season players with the right coaching to develop their skills as players and as a team.
I know I complain about this. Kansas and Bill Self offer one of the better coaching situations in college basketball today! We just need to be geared a bit more towards coaching versus recruiting. Then let the recruiting catch up as our reputation grows in development. I’m not hearing enough from players bragging about how much they learn at Kansas and we aren’t seeing it enough on the court.
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KUSTEVE said:
@HighEliteMajor So, you think a Vick would’ve made all the difference in our perimeter defense against 4 out teams. Interesting. The year before, the “right minded” Vick didn’t seem to help us much against 4 out teams, or 5 out teams, as was the case with Villanova. Our weak link over the years has been perimeter defense - last year was the worst. I’m going to have to agree to disagree on your assertion about fielding a competent lineup last year that wouldn’t get buried from the 4 out. It’s not every year we get drilled by 30 in conference play, and get down by 25 at the half in the NCAA tournament.
I’m not sure how you conclude that I would believe that Vick would make a difference in our perimeter defense.
I think a right-minded Vick would give us an explosive offensive force from three point range, as he did before he spiraled. Something we would need to compete more completely.
I also also believe that our defensive scheme … how we guard the line … was horrible as you note. Thus my reference to a better scheme.
I said a right-minded Vick AND playing the right defense.
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@HighEliteMajor so no Dedric?
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@Crimsonorblue22 Dedric at the 4, Doke at the 5. Dotson, Grimes, Vick. Just like we had early on.
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@HighEliteMajor against auburn? No way! Dedric is incapable of playing D or getting back that quick.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Ah, not true on the first two items I think. You need to play the right defense. The right scheme.
Let me ask this. If we line the 3 point line with our five guys. The played zone and covered the line like a glove, how many 3 pointers get made? Right, probably only a few. But we give up buckets over and over at the rim. A focus on the three point line is obviously not that extreme, but it’s a different mindset. A different approach. Dialing that back to a reasonable degree.
Getting Dedric back is really insignificant. That’s never his responsibility anyway. Now, of course, there would be times where that might cost us a few points. But it’s not major impact on the game.
The best way to beat 4/1 is a strong 3/2 scheme that plays inside out setting up a good rate of three pointers combined with the big advantage inside. And, in my humble opinion, a 3-2 zone vs the better 4/1 teams where you use the 3 top defenders and one low defender to rotate and force a higher rate of 2 pt jumpers. You can also play man and switch most everything in certain areas on the floor. Again, you expose yourself in other areas. But against the 4/1, 3 pt assasins, I like a different poison.
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The team defense (not every player, but as a whole) last year totally sucked. I haven’t been too impressed with our defense - particularly on the perimeter - for quite a few years now. Winning the conference last year, even with a healthy Dok? Imo, no, but that’s just an opinion. One thing that is fact, though, is that this year’s team is not last’s! And, man, am I glad for that.
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@HighEliteMajor if I remember right, sometimes questionable, didn’t the first half they score most of their pts in transition, fast break? I can see d dot going from 1 guy to another before anyone could get back to help. I think your D is fine, but in that game they scored before we could ever set up.
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Marco said:
The team defense (not every player, but as a whole) last year totally sucked. I haven’t been too impressed with our defense - particularly on the perimeter - for quite a few years now. Winning the conference last year, even with a healthy Dok? Imo, no, but that’s just an opinion. One thing that is fact, though, this year’s team is not last’s! And, man, am I glad for that.
like you said - - - our perimeter D has sucked. - There was/have been countless times where opposition had WIDE open 3 pt attempts and we paid dearly on a lot of those occasions - There was either NO defender - - OR a Defender that had the Olay approach - just kinda half hearted feeble last second run half way out and wave an arm - -Not sure in who’s book that would be called Defense - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Defense is mostly hustle, positioning, communication and having one collective mentality.
Every defensive scheme has weaknesses. It’s up to the defense to limit those weaknesses, and sometimes mask them, too.
And after players are in our system for a few years they should be able to think on their own and adjust their positioning some during a game to reduce where we are being exploited. It shouldn’t require Self calling timeout every time we need to tweak our defense slightly. This requires our players having developed their basketball IQ.
Think back over some of our bad defensive games. In those games we would get smoked at the same exploit over and over again. Even though Self is a true HOFr… he can’t know everything happening out there. Players have to take responsibility to fix much of the problems themselves. Often, it just means positioning slightly different, or running a fake to steal the ball, or moving feet more to avoid a switch, etc.
None of this is rocket science. But these guys are young, and they are playing in front of thousands of people and the pressure is on! I complain a lot… but I am usually amazed at how well these kids do under the circumstances. That doesn’t mean we loosen expectations and stop pushing them.
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@jayballer73 We haven’t played real good defense in years. Last year was the bottoming out. I think last year paves the way for this year, when we will be one of the best in the country.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Kind of like Nova the year before, right? I know you think the game might not have been winnable. You might be right. But I think games turn greatly on coaching strategy and scheme, and that can roadblock hot shooting.
Self is just behind the curve regarding three pt defense. That’s a theme here in the discussions on our poor defense. It’s a different strategy. It’s hard for coaches to change their spots. Like opening his mind to more three pointers, 4/1, etc. Certain normally reliable concepts don’t cut it vs some of these sophisticated three pt attacks. In fact, it exposes us vs some teams when schemed against.
Coaching is key. It’s why Boeheim can have a better 2-3 zone than anyone else. He knows how to coach it. It’s in his blood.
Self’s defenses have always been geared to defend inside out. To protect the basket. And he is a master at it.
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@HighEliteMajor we can’t play his 2 bigs against that auburn or that Villanova team. There were times we couldn’t play withey w/Trob. I don’t think we’ve played very good D since they stepped up the rules. I think that hurt us, but with the players we’ve had the last 4-5 years, to slow joe! That ou game there last year,
was the worst defensive effort I’ve ever seen. Simple basic D principles. See ball see man, etc. and grimes was the worst!
