Rocktagon the Chalktagon



  • @HighEliteMajor

    Sitting a highly decorated Top 15 player would look awful bad to recruits. Self was hammered for years by other coaches when he did this in the past.



  • @BeddieKU23 Just give Grimes a different look off the bench is all. See if something can jump start him.

    But I don’t understand why it’s ok then under that theory to banish a McDonald’s AA to the bench in McCormack. Is there some importance about the top 15 thing you think?

    MCormack has been better than Grimes.



  • So Grimes’ stat line is atrocious, 1 reb 6 pts 4 fouls 5 TOs, it’s true (I’m going by others posts on the TOs, espn doesn’t have it).

    But when we were hanging tough, Grimes was out there on the floor. Vicks line was a little better,.7 pts 3 Reb, 2 assists, 0 PF, ? TOs. However, Vick killed us. Just killed us. Strictly in terms of on floor chemistry, is Grimes decent? Does the team play well with him out there?



  • HighEliteMajor said:

    @BeddieKU23 Just give Grimes a different look off the bench is all. See if something can jump start him.

    But I don’t understand why it’s ok then under that theory to banish a McDonald’s AA to the bench in McCormack. Is there some importance about the top 15 thing you think?

    MCormack has been better than Grimes.

    I figured you would bring up McCormack and yes I do think there is something to the importance of Grimes being the much higher rated prospect coming in. The OAD train started on him well before he got to campus. There is pressure to satisfy him as well as future recruits that are looking at how Grimes is being used by Self. To counter that, Dotson has been a major win for Self considering a freshman PG hadn’t started here in a long time. Dotson’s success will have an impact on the type of PG’s Self will have a chance with in the future.

    There’s always a few every year we are wondering why they get minutes or don’t get minutes. The whole Agbaji situation still baffles me as well.

    Bringing Grimes off the bench I think has the chance to permanently damage the relationship. Kids leave nowadays at the change of the wind. If Q is the type that could be motivated by that tactic then Self should consider it when Marcus is healthy. Or as you suggested prior, play McCormack now and don’t wait. I think there is a ton of risk in sitting Grimes at this point. Self has believed in letting him play through all this. I don’t know he has to see what we see on tape especially on defense. Usually it isn’t tolerated. But then we have Vick…with his head in and out daily so you wonder what is going on with a lot of things in this program. Too many distractions and issues at this point in the season.



  • @approxinfinity

    The K-St game was clear evidence that Vick cannot be trusted. He was toxic on the court Tuesday.



  • @HighEliteMajor

    The PER does support that McCormack (14.9) has been the better player then Grimes (8.4) despite the disparity in their minutes. In Conference play Dave’s PER is lower 5.2 to Grimes 8.3 which may be why he’s played so little. Both numbers are terrible. Actually when you look at everyone’s you wish you didn’t. Moore-4.5, Mitch-4.7, Dave-5.2, Lawson-6.9, Grimes-8.3. About as bad as it gets from those 5



  • @BeddieKU23 As usual, you make very good points.

    I am a big, big believer in playing the guy that will be the best player, letting the talent develop, and work towards having the better talent at the end of the season. My struggle with Grimes is that I’m just not seeing much and I seriously question his effort. That’s a lot different than Cliff, or Diallo, or Releford, or Selby, or EJ.

    To put this in context, I’d start Jamari Traylor over Grimes right now.

    But your points are the pragmatic ones. I understand that may be more rational.

    Good point on McCormack’s PER in conference play. I think if he was able to play, get his legs under him some, we’d be satisfied with his play. Self seems married to the 4/1 now (which I just don’t think matches this team very well).



  • BeddieKU23 said:

    @HighEliteMajor

    Sitting a highly decorated Top 15 player would look awful bad to recruits.

    Yet, we end up sitting those recruits anyway because they are deemed ineligible.

    To change the game we have to quit playing the game and do what’s best for the team. Right now I don’t even see a team out on the floor. I see five individuals with no cohesion, no cohesiveness and no chemistry.

    I don’t care who got paid what at this point and I certainly don’t care about hurt feelings or some fraudulent pecking order. I don’t care about the number of stars next to their name or how great the “experts” think they are. I also don’t care about past performance or “potential”. Play the guys who have the desire and the hustle and the want-to. I don’t even care if THAT starting five are the most talented.

    What we’re trotting out there now doesn’t work. So, try something else.



  • BeddieKU23 said:

    @approxinfinity

    The K-St game was clear evidence that Vick cannot be trusted. He was toxic on the court Tuesday.

    Self won’t do it but I wonder if just straight kicking Vick off the team would be a net positive right now.



  • HighEliteMajor said:

    Good point on McCormack’s PER in conference play. I think if he was able to play, get his legs under him some, we’d be satisfied with his play. Self seems married to the 4/1 now (which I just don’t think matches this team very well).

    I am not sure but I think a mix would be best. Mitch and KJ can be serviceable at the 4.



  • HighEliteMajor said:

    @BeddieKU23 As usual, you make very good points.

    I am a big, big believer in playing the guy that will be the best player, letting the talent develop, and work towards having the better talent at the end of the season. My struggle with Grimes is that I’m just not seeing much and I seriously question his effort. That’s a lot different than Cliff, or Diallo, or Releford, or Selby, or EJ.

    To put this in context, I’d start Jamari Traylor over Grimes right now.

    But your points are the pragmatic ones. I understand that may be more rational.

    Good point on McCormack’s PER in conference play. I think if he was able to play, get his legs under him some, we’d be satisfied with his play. Self seems married to the 4/1 now (which I just don’t think matches this team very well).

    I’m also a big believer in playing the better player. The effort thing you mentioned is my biggest issue with him as well. He is loafing on defense almost to the point you wonder if he’s in “protect the goods” mode. Except he’s no longer a first round pick so what’s he protecting? I don’t see any team drafting him after this season either. The tape will expose Grimes in a bad way. So his issue still seems to be mental. His recent interview talking about his struggles to do everything perfect reminds me of the last guy we had with that mentality- Perry Ellis. That was a big thing that held him back in his younger days and I see the similarities. If he sticks around past this season I think he’ll be the player we recruited in time. The problem is we expected that player this year.

    The last thing I want to mention in regards to Q is I think he’s shown he’s not an off-the-ball perimeter player. I know Self recruited the Dotson/Grimes duo to play together but I think what Self ended up with is two guards that are meant for the same position. If we throw in Garrett’s lack of perimeter shot I think we have 3 guys for one spot on offense. We have Batman’s but no Robins. That’s where Malik Newman would have saved this team. The dominance Grimes showed in HS was primarily because his role never changed. He was the PG and primary scoring option at all 3 levels (Texas, AAU, Team USA). He was physically bigger then guys who guarded him and his skill level with the ball in his hands made him the player he was projected to be. At KU he’s had to learn how to play without the ball for the first time and its showing. He looks slower, he looks disinterested in playing defense especially if a player gets a step on him. When he gets a rebound or an effort play you feel like that’s the first time you’ve seen him do that ever in a KU uniform. I think a lot of the offensive fouls he’s been called for this year have zapped his confidence in driving to the hoop. He’s more of a straight line driver instead of having some wiggle. That probably is attributed to him being an average athlete at this level which wasn’t his problem in HS. His streaky outside shot has also been a disappointment. I have mentioned several times he rushes. He shot near 40% from 3 as a Senior on over 200 attempts so its interesting to see his struggles because a lot of his misses are often wide open.

    I agree about Dave. I think he’d prove with the minutes to be valuable to this team. You don’t have to teach effort with him like it seems with others. Self seems to have a big issue with his defensive positioning though. I remember him being out of position on his first defensive trip Tuesday where he was caught in front of his man who got a wide open layup. Those mistakes seem to be the kiss of death for a freshman big under Self. But those are ultimately mistakes I think Self should live with in order to build him up. He’s going to need him the next 3 years and after all the injuries his lack of playing time just doesn’t make much sense.



  • @tis4tim

    No arguments from me on everything you said. Self wants to win though. Normally his teams are buckling down and forming an identity. Not sure this group will get there.



  • @BeddieKU23 They’re not buckling down, but they’re forming an identity.



  • @nuleafjhawk

    What Identity would that be?



  • BShark said:

    HighEliteMajor said:

    Good point on McCormack’s PER in conference play. I think if he was able to play, get his legs under him some, we’d be satisfied with his play. Self seems married to the 4/1 now (which I just don’t think matches this team very well).

    I am not sure but I think a mix would be best. Mitch and KJ can be serviceable at the 4.

    Dam. - - pretty good point my man - - why didn’t I think of that? lol - -they would be better then what we are getting right now. - - - I know I’m in the very minority on KJ - - BUT I am still a KJ fan , I think he sure in the hell could not do any worse right now. - - Don’t think we would really need HUGE numbers from them. - -Between him and Mitch - - We know that they at least wouldn’t be as timid as Quentin has/is a lot of times - -KJ likes to rebound - - Mitch is gonna give you all he has got — they wouldn’t be afraid to put up a shot - - YET they wouldn’t be jacking up ALOT of bad shots on the other hand either.

    We know Mitch is not afraid to step in and take a Charge? - -these two guys more of a threat to try and least try to score - -I just am still a KJ fan right now - -I think he could be on the floor more - -you combine those two – might work some



  • @BeddieKU23 An identity of being soft, not hustling. Of course, that’s just my opinion.



  • I still can’t believe I (and some others) thought that not having Doke in the middle might make for a more productive offense. Idiots we were. This team needed a guy like Doke in the worst way.

    Given that relatively obvious observation, it would seem that something inside would help Dedric. Dedric is very limited. Defensively he’s a disaster inside. Not his strong suit. But the dude can score if he has a bit of space. Job one. Get him space.



  • @HighEliteMajor I am still trying to get my head around your comment that you would start Jamari over Grimes! I know it arose out of a sense of Grime-y desperation, but I am thinking the sun rises in the west tomorrow…



  • HighEliteMajor said:

    I still can’t believe I (and some others) thought that not having Doke in the middle might make for a more productive offense. Idiots we were. This team needed a guy like Doke in the worst way.

    Given that relatively obvious observation, it would seem that something inside would help Dedric. Dedric is very limited. Defensively he’s a disaster inside. Not his strong suit. But the dude can score if he has a bit of space. Job one. Get him space.

    Yep! Self will never banish Vick, and unless Tuesday’s Charles is the new Chuck and Mitch continues to scrap like his life depends on it, there will be several guys sabotaging the game in our rotation.

    I didn’t mention Q, KJ, or Garrett. They never officially made it to my mental Island of Misfit Toys, but obviously, there are many question marks and things need to go right there as well. These guys are at least a net zero on a bad night, not a disaster. Of the three, Garrett has the most potential to be a game changer in limited matchups.

    Of the three buckets:

    A. potential disaster – Vick (almost made likely disaster 4th bucket), Mitch, Charlie

    B. likely net zero – Q, KJ, Garrett (Garrett is a match up thing that we should be able to predict, he probably deserves his own bucket)

    C. good to great – Dedric, Dotson, Agbaji

    Which bucket do you put Big Dave? I don’t think we’ve seen a complete game of his belong in bucket C, but we need to see him PLAY A COMPLETE GAME before making that assessment. If he did fall in bucket A earlier in the season, I’m just not seeing it now. Kid gives his all and good things happen when a giant waves his wings.

    So after Tuesday’s game, I would put Dave ahead of Vick for sure, Chuck and Mitch if they bomb their next assigment, KJ if we don’t need 3s, and Garrett if we do. I’d put him ahead of Q if the team isn’t doing well, otherwise I wouldn’t screw the chemistry.

    So that leaves only Dotson, Agbaji, and Dedric ahead of Dave :100: of the time.

    Do you remember the games where we force fed Doke to the point of bewilderment? (I think there were several, which led to the unfounded conclusion that our offense would be set free sans Doke). Ball goes in, no light escapes… Well now it seems to me that maybe the reason our offense was so simply a binary absolute of [FEED / DO NOT FEED] Doke was because the Chuckers, Wimps, and Poisonous Snakes were certain to sabotage with some bonehead play if the offense was given freewill. Easier to issue the blanket directive “You will look for Doke, and if you don’t feed him when he’s open, you’re coming out.”

    I think it was you before that said this team needs “Micromanagement Bill” in the worst way. Well, at least this last game gives me some hope that Charles and Mitchell can be productive. That was the most focused and aggressive I’ve seen them all season. I liked it. But if they aren’t, Dave. Vick? No Thanks. Dave. Dave will never throw a no look pass into the bleachers. Never. The road paved with broken players leads to Dave.

    And I hope Self sees it.



  • I don’t think the ineptitude is a permanent condition. We’re being schooled on the road by older teams that have been around the block. We’re still barely scratching the surface. We’re still cobbling together different line ups. There is too much talent on this team to not get better…much better…this year. I wouldn’t know when that will be, and I’m not so sure who it will be, but I think this team still has potential…still has possibilities for this year.



  • @approxinfinity Put Big Dave in for for a minimum of 10 minutes every game. Wouldn’t it have been easier to teach one player ( Big Dave ) his position than trying to get a team to learn a new offense in the middle of the season? Admit it, Coach Self…the 4 out works like a lead balloon with this crew because you don’t have the shooters you had last year. Free the hi-lo…FREE BIG DAVE!



  • @approxinfinity That’s a PHOF if I’ve ever seen one.



  • @HighEliteMajor Your Adidas theory on why Grimes continues to play can’t be ignored based on what (sadly) has come to light. My theory is that Self does feel pressure to play a highly recruited guy (I can imagine that has come up on the recruiting trail), that he also has seen what Grimes can do and he wants that to have a chance to shine through. I think the continuing to start thing might be to keep his ego /spirits up. Not starting is more noticeable than not being in at crunch time. And once Garret comes back…I don’t think Grimes will be in at crunch time…unless he improves considerably. I still hold out hope.



  • Grimes reminds me so much of Newman last year it’s crazy. He’s so close to turning the corner and being “a guy.” Newman literally sucked for like 95% of the season, but he finally got there. We had threads about how awful he was and how he “seemed” like a cancer.

    I think Grimes will get better. He’s already shown his shot is starting to fall. Next step is being able to defend for 35 minutes a game and literally turn the corner on the drive. It’s coming.



  • Kcmatt7 said:

    Grimes reminds me so much of Newman last year it’s crazy. He’s so close to turning the corner and being “a guy.” Newman literally sucked for like 95% of the season, but he finally got there. We had threads about how awful he was and how he “seemed” like a cancer.

    I think Grimes will get better. He’s already shown his shot is starting to fall. Next step is being able to defend for 35 minutes a game and literally turn the corner on the drive. It’s coming.

    Grimes will be VERY good at KU if he sticks around and just plays. It’s been a huge adjustment for him to play off the ball.


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