Why We Lost to Iowa State
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@DinarHawk Rodney Crain, anyone know him?
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I have thought for some time, and continue to hope, that Bill Self is refusing to show his full hand regarding compensatory defenses. Ford and Hoiberg, out of necessity to survive, threw some change-ups at us on the defensive side of the court. Bill Self either senses that his squad cannot master basic elements of a zone, or is determined to save any such surprise look for desperation situations in NCAA Tournament play. The Hoops World is fully aware that he seems always to loathe such maneuverings. Yet, at times his former squads have survived and moved on via modified zone defenses, esp. in postseason tournament play. The Embiid factor looms huge in consideration of defensive change-ups, at this stage. A key missing link in our normal m2m pattern is missing. If Self is quietly working on schematic change-ups, will JoJo be able to plug in, when or if he returns? Without him, I expect to see the Jayhawks surprise some unprepared but threatening opponent, probably around the 16:30 mark of a first half; just so that a brilliant schemer like Hoiberg races into a halftime locker room befuddled, or at least uncertain of adjustment. Speaking of Hoiberg and Co., that team certainly appears to be an Elite 8 contender.
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@DinarHawk I woke up this morning thinking the same thing. In theory, we will not face anyone as good as ISU until the Sweet 16. Sure, someone could shoot 11-18 from 3 in the first 2 games against us, but it’s not likely and I’ll take those odds. But, clearly we need Embiid back to have a good chance at winning in the Sweet 16.
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@wissoxfan83 I will be very surprised if we are lower than a 2. I don’t think the committee penalizes us for losing to a good team in the conference tournament. Unless they move us down one for Embiid’s injury. I still expect a 2 seed.
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@jaybate - Your analysis of the loss is excellent.
“KU could either start doubling Niang, as it had OSU’s big so well the day before. Or KU could go zone, knowing OSU had lost its trey shooting legs, and use the zone to cut Niang off entirely from the basket down low. Either ploy would have worked.”
But Self chose to do neither.
Self has chosen this entire season to rely upon his dogmatic approach. He only seems to know or appreciate one way. He doesn’t adjust to fit his players and talent. His players have to adjust to fit him. He runs his system, period.
He now has a team that 189th in the nation in points allowed. He still has two monumental holes defensively – Tharpe and Ellis. He still has a primary sub that is impotent guarding anyone of skill or size in the post – Traylor. Not much has changed.
Right, not much has changed. We’re going to play man to man defense regardless of whether we’re successful. That’s what we do.
It doesn’t matter that, physically, this team playing zone made more sense.
Prior to the tournament, I noted that with our defensive deficiencies, that we could not rely upon our defense – we’d have to tactically approach the game to outscore the opponent. Many ways to do that. Increase possessions by shooting quicker, pressure defense,etc. Heck, just having the guy closest to the ball throw it in after a made basket can help.
We clearly did not do that last night – meaning a tactical approach to scoring more. We did the same thing we always do.
And against the dreaded hot shooting team, coach Self’s teams will do what they always do. But this time, he has absolutely no rational basis to bank on his defense.
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@Hawk8086 I think a 2 seed would be a gift, I’ll take it, but we don’t deserve it in my opinion. There’s really not much difference between a 2 or a 3, so it doesn’t matter too much I guess.
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@Crimsonorblue22 " Rodney Crain, anyone know him?" LOLOLOL…I just spewed my coffee on that one… I looked up lousy fan in my dictionary, and staring back at me was lil butthurt Rodney… guys like that aren’t fans, they are critics. We have them on here as well, unfortunately.
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I thought this game was very entertaining.
I like the way we run the Harlem Globetrotter shuffle. How we put the ball on the floor and between the legs of the opponents. How we throw up half court hook shots and throw buckets of water into the crowd.
I like how we prance around and spin like little ballerinas in pink tutus.
I like how every single person that I watched the game with shook their heads simultaneously and said " Has any one of these guys ever seen a basketball before? "
I look forward to the day when we have two or three juniors or seniors on the team, no matter where frickin Rivals rates them. Mickey D can bite me too.
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@wissoxfan83 You are basing that, I assume, on the recent losses to WVU and ISU. The committee looks at the entire season’s body of work, while also looking at recent trends (and I do see your point on that issue). I don’t see them penalizing us for losing to ISU…they are a good team. Other teams are having some problems also. But as you say…not a lot of difference between a 2 and a 3. I would like to be a 2 in the Midwest, though.
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@KUSTEVE I agree about a lot of the posters on the other site. I can’t stand the negativity. Yes, our team has issues, but there are ways to express your feelings on those issues without sounding like a negative nancy. I just scan the comments and look for Oak’s post. His posts are right on the money.
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@KUSTEVE is that his real name and real pic?
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@Hawk8086 Well, I ran into one of the most negative posts I have ever seen on this site the other day. I was shocked. It pissed me off. These aren’t fans…they have went way beyond that. I’m not sure what to label them, because the word “critic” just doesn’t seem to encapsulate it. If watching your team not playing well sends you off into such fury that you have to spew nasty, horrible accusations, then maybe you shouldn’t watch basketball, and should seek professional help.
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@jaybate 1.0 I learn so much each time I read your analyses. Thank you.
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@Hawk8086 Well said.
There are low odds that there will be a team as good as Iowa State until the Sweet Sixteen, and if there are upsets, not until the Elite Eight.
And they wont have to play two teams with top ten talent two days in a row. That does help.
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@KUSTEVE Agree 100%
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@drgnslayr where are you? No floor burns award?
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I posted this in a different thread but this one seems more appropriate.
A few scattered thoughts about yesterday’s game.
The offense played reasonably well. If you score 83 points, there is a good chance you will win.
The defense was out of sync with no weak side help resulting in many uncontested baskets; Coach Self will fix that.
The technical on the Mayor turned the game around. After that call, all the calls started going to ISU; I wish Coach Self would gotten a “T” to get the refs back to normal.
The defense allowed too many open shots; however, when the other team shoots close to 60% from the 3, your options are limited; if you play tight a foul is called, if you try to contest the shot, it probably ends up in afoul as well. This is one of those games for ISU that Fraschilla calls playing “out of their minds” and can do no wrong. Also, when two good teams play 3 games in a season, it is very, very hard to get a sweep.
This was game of runs and KU ran out of time to put together one last run. Oh well.
On a good note, with all the upsets happening this weekend Lunardi still has KU as #2 seed; before all is said and one, it might end up a #3 seed, but either is not too bad.
How spoiled of a fan base are we? At this time of the year, fans from most other programs worry if their teams will make it to the dance in the first place; we, on the other hand, complain loudly about KU not trying hard, playing poorly…you name it. In the mean time, the teams will quietly secure a high seed like it does year after year. We should be so happy to have the team we have and count our blessings we live in Kansas, the only state with at least 3 Division 3 teams that will send all 3 teams to the dance for the third year in a row. We could live one state East and have only the non-state school (St. Louis) going to the dance and the flagship university and former rival headed to the NIT. Something to ponder.
P.S. Am I the only one that find Brent Hamburger the most annoying announcer on TV? Why do we have to get stuck with him?
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@JayHawkFanToo ps, he gags me!!!
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@JayHawkFanToo How about BurntBurger?
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Seems as though most of the key bigtime losses in the Bill Self era involve opponents’ fortunate 3 pt. percentages. I suppose that speaks to our sometimes weak m2m perimeter defense…
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Greene still a raw work in progress, but satisfying to note that his energy helped create positive Jayhawk surges when he was in the lineup.
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From what I read… all 3 of these guys were 2s in HS… EJ was forced into some 1 in his senior year.
I think Self thinks the same way… what is the difference between a 1 and a 2? Ball skills?
The real difference is leadership. Not many players out there who are capable leaders. The real PGs are guys who were always PGs… usually because they were short and grew up playing ball, they had to endure plenty and probably most had “Napoleon complexes.” I’m guessing Frank has always been a PG. He has that toughness. He looks like he had to endure plenty growing up so learned to compensate with other skills. But I’m not sure he has leadership abilities. Time will tell.
Here is a story you want to read about our next PG:
That kid is tough, he carries more than his weight. I want to read some tough story about our next PG. It makes all the difference in the world. These recruits are out there, but harder to find, but worth finding.
I’m sick and tired of having to wonder if our guys are ready to play. That’s friggin’ pathetic. The right kind of PG will get his troops ready and will lead by example.
This idea that as long as we put height and athleticism at the PG spot we will be good, is utter nonsense. Put the tall athlete at the 2. Get the tough guy who has something to prove at the 1 and let him be your floor general.
@REHawk -
“Seems as though most of the key bigtime losses in the Bill Self era involve opponents’ fortunate 3 pt. percentages. I suppose that speaks to our sometimes weak m2m perimeter defense…”
Perhaps… but do we solve that with height and athleticism? It doesn’t hurt… but why is short and slow Aaron Craft Defensive Player of the Year for the last 2 years in the Big 10? He’s 6’2" in OSU inches (I’ve heard he is right at 6’ ) and the guy will never win a track race.
What is worse is to sacrifice a huge chunk of offensive proficiency by not having the right PG. We may have lost several March games off a 3-pt buzzer beater or a hot team shooting from 3, but couldn’t we have made a few points difference by running a better offense? Like… for starts… how about we knock our TOs down to 4 or 5 per game? It must help having an extra 10 scoring opportunities every game! And how many points do we give up when we have a TO and the other team completes a run out?
I truly believe we are in for a long long long drought from NC trophies if we don’t wise up on what the role is of the PG position. I can think of a few times when we should have won it all (and would have) if we had the right PG (within the Self era).
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@drgnslayr Well again, where did you read that they were 2s? I mean, I provided the info about EJ moving there his senior year. Here is the link to Tharpe’s article:
http://www2.kusports.com/news/2010/nov/15/kansas-officially-announces-signing-naadir-tharpe/
The article itself lists him as a point guard, as does a quote by Bill Self, in which he compares Tharpe to Aaron Miles. It also says that during Tharpe’s junior season at Brewster they won the prep national championship. No one here sat down and talked to Naadir, but if a point guard can win a national championship it’s not a leap to assume he has some leadership skills.
Here’s the link to the Taylor article:
http://www2.kusports.com/news/2008/apr/29/tyshawn_taylor_commits_ku/
Pretty much the same stuff as the Tharpe article. Senior point guard from St. Anthony. Led them to an undefeated season and high school national championship his senior year. Defines himself as a winner.
And here’s a couple of links for EJ. The first is of his signing. The second is after he arrived on campus the summer before his freshman season:
http://www2.kusports.com/news/2008/nov/17/elijah_johnson_officially_signs_ku/
http://www2.kusports.com/news/2009/jun/15/ku-hoops-players-welcome-johnson/
Between the two articles you get stuff like “his passing is the strongest point of his game” and “I’m just ready to help the team out, being more so a point guard and being able to make open shots and playing defense 24-7."
I share a lot of your frustrations with our PG play the last two seasons. My point is, Self has recruited point guards that he felt would succeed. It’s not an exact science, and maybe the issue is what we’re doing with them once they get here, rather than if they have the chops to be elite level D-1 PGs out of high school. I can entertain the idea that maybe we need a “guard specialist” coach (like Danny was with the bigs).
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I think TT and Naadir were recruited here to be PGs. Perhaps even EJ. But I recall reading on all of these guys that their main position coming up through HS was the 2 spot… including Naadir. I especially recall that with Naadir because I was shocked he wasn’t a PG all through HS.
Self recruited these guys to play as PGs. That isn’t the same as a guy growing up his whole life playing PG and sticking with it in HS. That is what my point is in my post.
I would like to know Self’s TO rate for all his teams at KU. We are never known as a team that takes care of the ball. Sure, all players can be careless, but it starts with the PG.
I remember all of these guys we are talking about… and when they signed. The only one I thought might be a true PG is Tharpe. Then I read that he is converting to PG.
Tharpe is no Aaron Miles.
Sorry… I just don’t see a National Championship in our future again until we secure a real PG. We’ll continue to have these teams with beasty post players and athletic wings… but no titles until we get a floor general. I’d rather have a real floor general and the rest of the team average…
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@drgnslayr But, wouldn’t that make our team slightly above average? We don’t want that.
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Ha… I think we want want want… no doubt we have grand expectations, even this year, when we replaced our entire starting lineup!
I hope we don’t lose in the first weekend of the tourney… but if we do, we’ve still had a pretty good year considering we have almost a completely new team!
I also hope Tharpe proves me wrong and drills the next 6 games!
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@drgnslayr One interesting Tharpe stat vs. Mason I noticed.
Over that last 10 games, Tharpe is shooting 23.5 % from 3 range (8-34), while Mason is at 46.6% (7-15).
I don’t see how Mason doesn’t start next season over Tharpe.
Also, Mason has started to make some very nice passes on penetration recently.
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I think Tharpe has potential to be a really good 3-pt shooter… especially if he doesn’t have to think about running the team. He should get quality minutes at the 2 and backup minutes at the 1.
What if we sign Lyle? He’s a big kid, so everyone gives him the thumbs up at KU. But is he an alpha-dog? Huntington Prep lists him as a guard. They don’t specify who runs point. Was it Lyle or Perkins running their team this year? Does he know what is expected at PG?
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@drgnslayr He’s been pretty good this year from three, but I think his dislocated finger has been bothering him.
I still don’t think their loss is going to be due to a lack of a good point guard. I believe Tharpe has some leadership skills. But leadership skills do not, I repeat do not lead to good team play. Tharpe CAN NOT make the rest of the team play well.
Everyone has to put forth their own best individual effort.
I liked the way they played against OSU. Now, Tharpe just needs to get his trey gun going to really open the lane up for the bigs and Wiggins/Selden.
Again, I think that the current roster is good enough to get to the final four. I have no reason to think that if they bring their best effort that they don’t have a chance of making a deep run.
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Another frustrating aspect of the Iowa State loss is that now there is an article on ESPN about how vulnerable KU is without Embiid.
What they don’t mention is the circumstances and that they are likely to have him back by the second weekend.
Iowa State is not a good matchup especially without Embiid.
They weren’t saying that after they beat OSU the day before.
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What we have to think about now is that one loss ends our season. We can’t flutter now from game to game.
Hey… I finally found an article I like on Wiggins:
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@drgnslayr makes me sad! Great kid, don’t want him to go. Watched Ben Mac play a little, he was doing good on a lousy team. I guess it’s all about money, cause they didn’t seem to play team ball. So hard to watch! Are you watching ISU-Baylor? Watching creighton getting beat. ISU used all their shots up last pm!
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@drgnslayr Lyle isn’t considering KU anymore.
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@drgnslayr So basically this thing about Tharpe has ate & ate at me. “What more proof does this guy want that he is a point guard?” I kept thinking to myself. Coupled with the vague “I remember reading…” argument I was confronted with, I set out to gather as much proof as I could that this guy is a point guard.
Then I found something that lends credence to your claim. Apparently, before attending Brewster, Tharpe attended St. Peter-Marian in Worcester beginning in 8th grade, and played 2 seasons there before transferring to the Brewster Academy. While at St. Peter-Marian he was more of a 2, out of necessity the article states (apparently they weren’t very good and he had to score. The losing was what caused him to transfer). However, the article does state that as a 3 year starter he was the point guard for Brewster, including being a 2-time captain.
So while I still don’t buy that his natural position is the 2, I will concede that he played the 2 for at least a time in his youth career. To me, Self did right in recruiting the PG position when he recruited Naadir. A 3 year starter in high school for one of the top prep schools in the country, being a team captain for 2 of those years, and leading your team to a national championship while playing the point guard…not sure how much more due diligence Self was supposed to do there. Obviously no, he hasn’t been the second coming of Aaron Miles since becoming a Jayhawk. But my point is that doesn’t mean he’s playing out of position.
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@icthawkfan316 great work, you proved your point. Don’t think jr high counts???
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Lyle
@MoonwalkMafia Didn’t think about the Ok State game being important in the Lyle recruitment.
http://memphis.247sports.com/Article/JaQuan-Lyle-has-cut-his-list-to-three-schools-182961
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@approxinfinity I posted on headlines, KU wasn’t interested in him anymore.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Ah, see it now http://rockchalkblog.com/2014/03/15/recruit-talk-kansas-no-longer-interested-in-jaquan-lyle/ - thanks for this.
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@approxinfinity I just read twitter and copy and paste, that’s my limit though!!!
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@drgnslayr Regarding your question ‘who is the leader?’…I’d have to say now its Wiggins on the court with his play, and now even on the microphone increasingly. We dont see Naadir on the mike very often, do we? You could call Ellis a quiet-type of leader, but people, players, fans, FEED off energy, and Ellis doesnt show any (just a fact, not bagging on Ellis at this moment). Tarik Black has tried to be a lockerroom leader, and Ive seen him quite animated on the sidelines during timeouts, trying to rally the guys, so he is trying… But several players seem to be deferring to Wiggins… He has the obvious green light from Self, along with a season long’s worth of earfuls about “being more aggressive”. You could say the 18y/o (now 19) has handled the pressure extremely well–but it begs the question: why, on a Bill Self team, does a freshman have to be the on-court leader, and the one on the mike…? (Way more than the PG?)
Another undercurrent thought is: how does it affect each player’s psyche to have some OAD come in, then show the world he is a legit OAD, able to produce dazzling numbers on the O-end, and be a lockdown defender on the D-end…? I recall a previous “OAD” that came, caused the starting PG (Tyshawn) significant mental angst, which even leaked out publicly about his “role confusion”. Tyshawn had just come off from the U19 win, where he was the leading scorer…but now he + Sherron were to “feed” the OAD his touches? The good thing for Tyshawn was that he was an aggressive mentality. He got his moment his final year, and he seized it!
Summary: How does a coach change/cajole/rebuild? a player’s personality or confidence level? Is part of that responsibility up to a player within himself? We just went through this last year with EJ’s persona. He wasnt aggressive by nature. How does Self change someone’s nature?? He succeeded (after 2yrs) with Withey. He’s succeeded right out of the box with Wayne Selden, or maybe bigWayne gets due credit also. Self finally succeeded in getting Wiggins to be (an) alpha. Ellis still a work in progress…We also need Black to be a bull-in-china shop monster, but then we have learned he is a big nice guy, consumate team player. It’d be nice to have either Black or Ellis (or both) show a little bit of Thomas Robinson in their mentality, IF that can be reached within each’s ‘personality envelope’.
Very interesting to contemplate a leader-less team. Bill Self strutting on the sidelines cannot replace the confident swagger that is supposed to be inside of each player that plays for Kansas. Thats supposed to be one of the “edges” our guys have.
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@ralster in an interview after osu game, Selden made the comment at the end of game, they wanted the ball in Tharpe’s hand, he’s their leader.
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@icthawkfan316 I agree. I don’t think I ever felt like Tharpe was playing out of position. Remember…he was not that highly rated coming out of high school. Originally committed to Providence. We got in late after missing on higher rated point guards. Don’t get me wrong, I love Tharpe and still have high hopes for him. But it did appear that he was our backup plan. That happens a lot.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Regarding Lyle, I assume his / our interest hinged on Selden coming back?
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@Hawk8086 don’t know, no scholarships left?
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@Crimsonorblue22 That was my assumption. Probably should have said hinged on Selden “leaving”.
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Thanks for putting in the effort to search out Tharpe’s background. My point was only based on something I read a long time ago… so I didn’t overstate my reference and it is open to scrutiny.
What really counts for me is what I think is important from the PG position.
First… from a personality perspective, a good PG will have a big time drive to lead. Good PGs are part coach, part player, part babysitter, part psychologist, part arbitrator… anything where they can get some level of control, because these guys want to control things, especially what happens on the court!
Good PGs hold themselves accountable for team results. Tharpe has done some of it this year and I commend him for doing it!
Good PGs have the highest basketball IQ on the team. They see what defenses are pulling and they know how to attack. They are free to call plays and sets themselves because coaches trust their PG and what he sees on the court. Good PGs direct their players. They tell them things to do in order to be more productive as individuals and for the team. Good PGs are paying attention while being out at the top of the key, making mental notes of what they are seeing and how to attack it better. When necessary, good PGs have plenty of their own weapons and when need be are willing to take over for short periods to try to get others going and keep the team in the game. Tharpe has done some of that this year, especially on the games where he ripped off a load of points!
Good PGs have a feel for what is the best pace to run their team. Good PGs impact that pace by pushing or slowing down tempo. At times, we’ve been stuck on both sides the wrong tempo. A good PG will feel the wrong pace and work towards changing it. The coach shouldn’t have to call a time-out every time the team has a minute or two of bad play. The leader on the court should be involved with settling the team down during the game, or pushing the team when everyone slows down too much.
Tharpe has the ability to be a good PG. But his downside habits have to be addressed. He can’t be inconsistent in his play. He can’t step into a game mentally unprepared to be efficient. He can’t decide to disappear in games that aren’t going his way. He can’t decide that the mountain is too high to climb so he goes on cruise control… when the mountain is high he needs to take a deep breath and start tackling that mountain!
“When the going gets tough, the tough get going!” Yes… it is a sports cliche… but it is also the dead on truth!
I don’t know if Tharpe has everything it takes to become a great PG… but he clearly does have what it takes to be a good PG! And sometimes we see a good PG… it is the other times that totally deflate his value on this team. For example… if he doesn’t show up for a game now, we are done for the year and we will be very very unhappy!
I want to see Tharpe, from here on out, arrive to a game prepared and confident to play. I want to see Tharpe prepare his troops to play, too. No more dead starts. No more starts where he immediately creates a few unforced TOs at the beginning of the game. Then… I want to always know that Tharpe is on the court. I shouldn’t have to study the game closely just to realize if he is on the court or not. Then… I want him running offense. I want him talking to his guys. I want to see his leadership. I want to see him shut his man down and stop giving away the lane. I want to see him exploit open court opportunities when they are there… no more getting out on a 1-on-1 or 2-on-2 and then pulling back and running offense. When we have opportunities like that we force it to the hole on the drive. We’ll either get the foul or the bucket or both!
I want to see an aggressive Tharpe from here on out! That isn’t asking too much from our starting PG!
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@drgnslayr-I’d like to see him take a charge just once this season…or at least get in position to take one.
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“Summary: How does a coach change/cajole/rebuild? a player’s personality or confidence level?”
I don’t have a clue… I think the key is to be more cautious during recruiting and look for the right guys in the first place.
Most of the guys I played beside maybe had too much confidence! Seems it was more a problem to get guys to play more under control and stop gunning because their FG% stunk!
How do we find all these sheepish players? Or are they sheepish? Maybe they BECOME sheepish after arriving in Lawrence!
Maybe there are issues within our system that plays a part in knocking down their confidence. Self is a sharp guy, we know that… and maybe he is working against other factors. For one… does our historic significance in college basketball help us or hurt us? It seems like these guys are constantly compared to past players and teams.
I don’t know. I’m not a psychologist… I continue to ask others in here who may have a background in this area to speak up and post their thoughts.
It does seem like players arrive here and then are in awe of what they stepped in. Seems we have to do a better job of instilling their confidence versus just pitting them against imaginary players from the past. I said “imaginary” because that is what the are to most of these players we recruit from all over the country.
These comparisons of Wiggins to Manning and Chamberlain are a joke!
This is a good read on the weird pressures applied to Wiggins. Manning didn’t face any of this in his days as a Jayhawk:
Look back to our second game of the year… against Duke. With the big lights on and a bunch of freshmen who didn’t know which direction was up. The sure looked better than the same team months later (sometimes). They definitely played with more of a spark!
That game is our barometer on this season. That game set the standard base to build from. That game showed what these players brought with them from HS, including their personality traits. We’ve seen individual improvements… especially with Andrew, Wayne and JoJo… but as a team, is our energy better? I’m not sure about that. I thought the Texas home game was a match of the energy we had with Duke. Why don’t we have that energy on a regular basis?
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@globaljaybird you don’t see many points taking charges.
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@globaljaybird
True… even if he didn’t get the call, it would just show toughness. This team needs leadership showing toughness!
I have to hand it to ISU… even though several of those guys are floppers… they still show a bunch of individual toughness and it rubs off on the rest of the team! They definitely ate up Niang’s bloody face!
This team goes as Tharpe goes… when he plays sheepish and has no confidence, it sets an example for the team, especially this young freshman team being lead by a junior PG.
