"We don't have anybody that can guard him"
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@approxinfinity but did you come right out and declare him a future national player of the year? When we signed Graham the year after did you get excited or was he a back up to missing on other top recruits? Everyone here is saying the same thing that was said about past pg’s when Self and company didn’t land an ESPN top 100 pg. He is not a back up or insurance plan. He is a solid contributor and the future of our program. All I am saying is that he is going to be good. Just what Coach Self wants. 2 small guards to run the show. Him and Dotson will be great together. If all things pan out then Coach Self has the 2 small guards, the footer, the hi low, the depth, talent, and the experience.
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Self has also made comments that his practise squad has out scored his starters in scrimmages all year. So it would be safe to assume that Moore is capable of leading our b team to victory over our current starting 5. Moore and the Lawsons already have chemistry. Moore can lead our b team to a victory over our current national player of the year candidate? So how is it he can lead our guys and have success against one of the top players in the country and not even start until his senior year? Not ready my ass!
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@Statmachine I thought the concetns over the PG “misses” were way overwrought. I was a fan of both Mason and Graham long before they “blossomed” but Frank’s wild drives to the rim drove me crazy for a couple of years until he figured out how to protect the ball and finish. Then he looked like a wizard who could magically move the ball through opponents’ bodies until he was at the rim. And then he pulled his second magic act–tumbling to the floor 4 to 6 times a game all season without getting hurt.
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@Statmachine I wasn’t here when we signed Mason and Graham. I was super high on Mason and it was apparent to anyone that saw Graham that he was going to be a good college player. Jerry Meyer of 247 was pimping Mason prettttty hard after the signing too, saying we got a steal. Mason was not a back-up plan either, the staff saw him and trusted their own evaluation. He moved up the priority list quickly.
As for Charlie Moore…
We will just have to wait until next season. If you don’t think he was an insurance plan though I don’t know what to tell you. Missed on many players in 2017 so Self had to take transfers. He was also immediately recruited over unlike Dedric.
I’m just being honest with what I see and hear. Sometimes I’m right and sometimes I’m wrong. Lucas did more than I ever figured he could. I did get Cunliffe and Garrett right though. Pretty sure I would have been right about Preston too but we can’t know that now of course…
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Its all good! You did just prove my point. Frank used to drive and run out of room. No dish no shot or he would get blocked or he would get a charging foul. He developed and he worked and he matured. Moore will do the same. He is not Cal Moore any more lol. His journey has began only he gets a year to learn and a year to grow before we get to see what he can do. I personally can learn quite a bit in a year if I focus. Embiid watched videos of his idol and became a similar player. Maybe just maybe Moore has added more tools to his toolbox? Guess we will see this summer?
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I listened to Charlie Moore in his postgame after dropping 38 his second game at Cal. He said all the right things for being relatively un-coached. I was impressed. You guys have got me intrigued. If you guys want more fodder, look at the list of past Mr Basketball’s in Illinois. Almost all were great college players.
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@approxinfinity Self knows a few of those guys and how good they are!
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@mayjay I reserve the right to wait on my
test. Next year
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I think Charlie develops into a pretty good college player. I don’t think he was very good his freshman year, but most players aren’t. Every player that sticks around seems to improve, sometimes dramatically, and I think Charlie will be the same. It’s not like he’s going to jump to the NBA anytime soon. His experience could come in handy with our freshmen guards next year.
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I thought this thread was about me for a sec…
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If Ellis was a 6’ pg his name would be Charlie Moore. Moore uses angles and makes big time shots close to the basket. He doesn’t dunk a lot and just uses the backboard kind of Ellis. Idk why but that is what type of player he is to me. He is going to be big time. I just think if he adds a drive and dish along with the ability to make an inlet pass to our bigs he will have all of the tools to be successful at KU.
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With the other scoring firepower we have i dont know that we will need moore to score that much. Should take pressure off him to just run the O and dime. So his stats may be worse than his frosh year but he will no doubt be a better player.
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@approxinfinity that is a filthy list. You have to go back to Sergio McClain to find the last real bust. Richmond made a mistake by leaving early.
@KUSTEVE Agree. I think he is a good solid player to have around. Jamari is one of the only guys I can think of that was around 4-5 years at KU and didn’t really develop/improve. His SO year was so promising too.
@Statmachine @Fightsongwriter Bill has said that Moore isn’t really a PG, so he will need to develop those passing traits. Grimes probably won’t run the point any next year and same for Garrett but both of those guys have really good passing/pg instincts. We could have line-ups where it’s like having 3 pgs on the floor.
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@BShark I read above your comments on Mason … could talk Mason all day long. You said, “Mason was not a back-up plan either, the staff saw him and trusted their own evaluation. He moved up the priority list quickly.”
It seemed pretty clear to me that Mason was a lower priority – it sure seemed like he was the back up plan. We had a number of offers out there to PGs. Andrew Harrison, Cat Barber, Kasey Hill, and Demetrius Jackson. There was also discusson on Roddy Peters, Stevie Clark and Rysheed Jordan.
But Harrison, Barber, and Jackson were clearly our top targets.
From the timeline, Mason didn’t commit to KU until after the main targets were off the board. Hill committed early, but Barber, Jackson, and Harrison all committed to other schools in weeks before Mason committed, and Harrison committed the week before Mason. It seems that if any of those three would have committed to KU, Mason would not have been here. We’d offered Mason, and others earlier, but you know that works – and the timeline is pretty solid there.
Mason was clearly a player KU identified, but he was not a guy we took over the higher ranked players. We also had CF already committed and only had a spot for one PG.
We did offer Mason in July. But like with many “offers”, it appears it was conditional on a few other guys. At least this is how it all seemed to line up from my perspective.
Anyway, nice to stroll down memory lane with the greatest PG in KU history. What a great set of circumstances that led him (and DG) to KU.
Man, I love 4 year players like those two (and Svi, Ellis, et. al.).
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@HighEliteMajor KU definitely ditched Cat Barber after the stealing while on campus at Louisville incident. Louisville actually put out a statement saying they were no longer recruiting him. KU did not put out a statement but KU was no longer an option for him.
Demetrius Jackson never even visited KU. KU coaches never stopped in to see him much either. It was ILL or ND leading into his SR year. KU offered that’s about it.
I would say the Harrisons were definitely top targets though. No doubt about that. Despite the fact that KU was always third in that recruitment.
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Moore is a PG and Self says all kinds of things to motivate his players. Both DG and FM averaged about half of Moore’s freshman numbers. I realize that we are not comparing apples to apples but Moore will be a 3rd year college pg. He had a pretty good year as a freshman at Cal. That was not a sample size either. It was a full year running a div 1 team that played against some high level competition. He even preformed really well against top competition. I think he even set a freshman assist record at Cal? He is going to surprise many of you. How do you like your crow cooked?
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I think Garrett will play a lot of PG. Where else would he play with all the talent in the other spots?
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If Doke can’t guard Dedric, then we’ve got a keeper.
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Statmachine said:
I think he even set a freshman assist record at Cal?
Maybe, but it’s usage rate related. He turned it over a ton too. So it’s just a product of the ball being in his hands so much. He was not an efficient player.
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mayjay said:
I think Garrett will play a lot of PG. Where else would he play with all the talent in the other spots?
Wherever Self can sneak him in.
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@BShark Don’t forget Garrett averaged a double double both junior and senior years in HS. Over 17 pts and over 10 assists both years. With Devontae taking only a few minutes off Garrett has not played it so much, and Self has plugged him in wherever, averaging 19 mpg as a wing or SF, while increasingly bringing the ball up. But next year I think he gets 25 or 30, with 20 mpg just at the point shared with Moore. He looks so good dribbling, makes <2 TOs per 40 mins, and we have seen how he can drive. As this scrawny guy gets stronger, I think he will really shine. Opponents will have to plan for defending both a 6’ PG and a 6’5" PG.
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@mayjay I’d still put money on Dotson starting at PG.
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@BShark I think Moore starts at PG at the beginning of the year. Dotson will get there, but I think he’s going to have a learning curve early on and Moore is already acclimated to high level college basketball.
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@mayjay I agree. I’ve been saying that since we signed him. He is such a smart player- his bb IQ is literally off the charts. I think he’d be more than capable.
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@KUSTEVE why does Coach never use him there?
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@Crimsonorblue22 He’s used him at the 2, the 3, and the 4. DG plays 40 minutes. When he does come out on those rare occasions, he uses Newman at the point. Maybe he feels better about Malik because of his experience. Now, just because Mayjay and I feel he should be a point guard doesn’t mean Coach agrees with us. BShark certainly doesn’t agree…lol.
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@KUSTEVE I am sure HCBS agrees with us but he won’t tell anyone and might make a different decision to avoid looking like he was listening to us.
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@KUSTEVE just think if he was going to, he would be backing dg.
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drgnslayr said:
Our post play next year is going to be sick! Heck… imagine the improvement Doke will make between now and next November!
Full on beast mode sick!
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@mayjay Exactly. Coach has us on speed dial.
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Having to watch Silo vs. Faylor…oh, the horror…
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@BShark I agree completely on Dotson. I think he’s the man at PG.
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KUSTEVE said:
@Crimsonorblue22 He’s used him at the 2, the 3, and the 4. DG plays 40 minutes. When he does come out on those rare occasions, he uses Newman at the point. Maybe he feels better about Malik because of his experience. Now, just because Mayjay and I feel he should be a point guard doesn’t mean Coach agrees with us. BShark certainly doesn’t agree…lol.
To be fair I said Garrett has good passing and pg instincts. It’s about roster construction. There is nowhere else to put Dotson but PG, it’s what he is. Moore is a 1/2 as well. Grimes and Garrett are versatile guys so you get them on the floor at w/e position 1-3 and they should be fine.
