Tharpe's Lesson: Own the Pace, Own the Game
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@globaljaybird
Good points! I’m not sure we have to finish every open court possession with a score. But we need the up-tempo to keep our guys’ chests pumping with plenty of oxygen. They need the run to keep their minds at full speed…
If they push it more they will surely finish some of those open court possessions at the rim… and it is easier to handle the ball in the open court with open space, then to drive the ball in the half court, through close defenders who are reaching for the ball.
I just think their potential weakness is to lose the grinder games. I’m thinking most of our losses were like that… low scoring affairs… Villanova, Florida, SDSU.
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@nuleafjhawk I personally don’t think that they have pushed the ball enough to know whether or not their ball handling is good enough. To me, Tharpe is up and down about turning the ball over, but he isnt that bad. The thing that bugs me about him is that he doesnt move the ball and push tempo. How many times have they actually done that? The answer is very few. It would be nice to see them really make an attempt to push the ball.
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If I’m not mistaken, probably 99% of our TOs have occurred in the half court, not the open court!
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@drgnslayr Exactly right about them losing grind it out games. If they would have been in a running game with Villanova or San Diego State, those games wouldnt have been close. However, it is good for them to learn how to win those half court games. I agree with you that Self is teaching them how to win the half court games because those are the types of games that they dont yet fully realize how to win.
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And Self knows… he can’t count on freshmen to execute in March. If he put all his eggs in an open court game and then the freshmen freak out when facing a 35-second Princeton offense… we die! (if we cave in to not pushing tempo)
Taking that same argument… that freshmen can’t be counted on to execute… they can’t be counted on to execute a half court game all the time either. It is the half court game that requires the largest amount of execution. I’m betting these kids, for the most part, would execute a faster tempo game better than a slow tempo game in March. We’ll find out soon enough! You can bet your last dollar that teams will come out and drop the pace just like TT did… not take a shot until 2 or 3 seconds are left on the shot clock, and not a lot of movement in their possession. Tubby is not a dummy. He knew that slowing us down for 35 seconds makes it hard for us to speed back up on our offensive possession. He was exactly CORRECT!
What people have to realize is… Tubby hoped his boys would score with 2 or 3 seconds left on the shot clock, but it wasn’t a big deal if they didn’t. His main objective was to deflate the game and take KU out of it’s high-velocity game! He was successful with his strategy… he was just unlucky in the final seconds. The fact that they lost by 1 says enough. We should have smoked them by 20+! No one knows that more than Tubby!
Well… we’ve had 26 games of half court basketball… I think it is time we can open it up a bit!
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@drgnslayr-I also think we’re sorely missing that dominant outlet pass we had with Cole & Jeff & the twins. These things take time. That’s clearly one aspect of Wigs game that has yet to evolve as he has been a mini monster on the glass. If we didn’t have to depend on his rebounding skills so much, he’d be in better position for transition. Hate to beat a dead horse, but again, which Perry do we need?
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@globaljaybird
We are missing that dominant outlet pass NOW! We have one of the best outlet passers the game has ever had in Embiid… we just weren’t using him for that!
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@drgnslayr So true! In my opinion, Embiid is a better passer than both Cole and Jeff. He just hasn’t had many opportunities to throw those passes because the rest of the team isn’t making an attempt to run.
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@DinarHawk I 100% agree that I wish they would push the pace - I’m just not sure if they are able to. We were discussing this very thing at work this morning ( on break of course…) about how if there was one thing we missed about Ol Roy it was the fast pace that he allowed/made his guys to play.
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@drgnslayr really like the up tempo to keep the chest pumping! When we pressed at ksu to go overtime, amazing things happened, also the press we put on TCU the 2nd half. I’m a firm believer that starting out w/a press gets those same chests pumping! Wiggins in open court against one is easier than him in half court against 3-4. Think the same w/selden. At what point do we keep saying we can’t because they’re freshmen?
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@nuleafjhawk Correct. And drgnslayr and I are wondering if Self is not encouraging it because he wants them to learn how to execute in the half court. As everyone can see, they are not exactly dominant in a slow, half court game. Learning that would be huge going into the tournament, as there is always at least one game in March that is a slow, grind it out game. That is the game that this team has to be ready for.
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@DinarHawk we’re ready now, let’s have the other team adjust to our tempo-ramped! Besides, the longer we take to run the slow-paced O the more chances to turn it over?
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@Crimsonorblue22 I am not sure that they are ready just yet. Theyre extremely close, but not there yet. I would have more confidence in them if they could have won at K State, but HORRIBLE pick and roll defense kept them from winning. They could have won the San Diego State game, but got outrebounded by 13. 13!!!. What this team tends to do in a slow game is to not move the ball. They catch it, look around, maybe take a couple dribbles, then pass it out front again. Then the guy that catches it does the same thing. That is not nearly fast enough. Drgnslayr has it right about starting out in a press to get them in the correct mindset.
I hope that they will soon start to do what we all hoped they would do since last summer, which is run, run, run. They have the depth and the talent to do it. We already know what Wiggins can do in limited open court possessions. Imagine him getting 10 or 15 of those every game! Like I said earlier, once this team starts playing in the open court, there is almost nothing stopping them from getting to Dallas. However, they must first master the art of half court offense to be fully ready for the tournament.
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This is where I have my hopes for this team… and it would be a master move to bring it on now!
It’s the team that is hottest at the end that wins it all. Usually a team will pull some kind of major tweak that transforms their play about now… with time (and games) left enough to polish the tweak and pick up all that momentum.
We can be the team with all momentum in March! I’ve felt we are a team that has been shackled for too long. The guys are restless… they are hungry for success… they want to prove themselves… and they are one big tweak away from running the table!
What team in this country can stop Wiggins or Selden in the open court? What team in this country can stop Embiid’s bullet outlet pass? What team in this country can score on this Jayhawk team that is fired up (hearts pounding)?
Tharpe can make it happen. He has the ear of his troops… he can push it himself and he can push the guys to move it. He has built enough leadership with this team to get it done!
I’d like to see them move it against Texas. Use Ridley’s size against him by making him a paperweight stuck on one side of the floor!
Yeehaw! Time to rope a Longhorn!!!
Rock Chalk!
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@globaljaybird Love the horse analogies!
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@drgnslayr Right on! The hottest team in March is the one that wins it! Look at Michigan last year. They did not end the conference season well at all and lost in the Big Ten tournament yet still made it to the championship game.
You are right about this team being shackled and burdened. They are itching to be let loose. They are so much better than they have shown.
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BTW, I would much rather be in a slump now and work out the kinks than having problems in March. Remember, there is no award or trophy for playing well in January and February. The only hardware I care about is rewarded in March.
I mean, winning the conference is nice, but I would rather have lost the conference last year and got to the final four last year. I know that some will disagree with me on that, but what most people remember is whether or not a team advances far in the tournament.
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We are missing that dominant outlet pass NOW! We have one of the best outlet passers the game has ever had in Embiid… we just weren’t using him for that!
Likely we have different definitions of what an outlet pass is. To me, an outlet pass is one that is thrown after a defensive rebound to an open player in the front court and the pass is normally at least half the length of the court. Some people consider any pass that starts a fast break an outlet pass but that is not, IMHO, a true “outlet” pass.
Embiid is a good, maybe even great passer; he is very good at protecting the ball after the rebound and then making the pass to the point guard, which reduces the chance of making outlet passes. He is also good at getting position on one side of the basket and then firing pass to the wide open opposite side, although this has resulted at time in turnovers when the ball is intercepted.
I can’t say I have seen Embiid throw many of what I call true outlet passers, so I cannot yet judge how good he is now or will be in the future. Players that are good passers are not necessarily good outlet passers and vice versa. Kevin Love is probably the best active outlet passer in the game, but the best of all times is probable Wes Unseld, although Jabbar and Walton were both outstanding outlet passers as well, at least among the player I saw play.
Here is a link to a video of Kevin Love’s outlet passes…
Link to Kevin Love outlet passes…
Those are outlet passes to me and I have not seen Embiid throw many of those.
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We are defining “outlet passes” as the same. Maybe you missed our early games. Embiid was rifling passes at least half the distance of the court, sometimes further.
If you put “Embiid outlet” in a Google search I bet you can find a lot about him. I did and just searching down a few links I found these… the first comparing him to Kevin Love, who, BTW, is one of the best at outlet passing!
http://kusports.net/boards/topic.php?board=1&topic=2836
Jason King got this one right:
“He’s already developed into a tremendous distributor—especially on outlet passes—and runs the court like a guard.”
I guarantee you that NBA GMs are psyched at his potential on the outlet!
Here is a link from his game with Towson. The second half of the video shows his outlet passes. These are not the best example of what he has done or what he could do. In other games he rifled the ball out and hit his target spot on! But this is what I found doing a quick search…
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@drgnslayr-Thx for the link. Many of the early season games I was unable to view due to TWC & SZ cahoots. Comcast is buying TWC so maybe things will change.
For those who want to see the premier outlet passers archives try Wilt, Russell, Willis Reed-these are the true masters of the art.
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@drgnslayr - Late to the party here, but great thread.
On pace, I would say that the best way to change the pace of game is through defense. Meaning, the pace of the game changes by speeding them up, not necessarily by us playing faster.
And that is where Self’s philosophy permits us to be sucked into a low possession game. He plays conservative on defensively, rarely pressing or taking chances. We don’t inspire turnovers. We don’t inspire opponents to rush. We permit them to be methodical, guarding against a breakdown.
That works most times – but with this team, that is defensively challenged, we see that we give up many, many late baskets.
This team could benefit by playing a bit more aggressively in its defensive scheme. But we know Self won’t do that.
In a game like TT, that is how we could have increased possessions, in my humble opinion of course.
**Sorry if I missed anyone’s similar thoughts above.
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I hear what you are saying… but the benefit from speeding up is more about US needing to speed up! We need to speed up our offensive possessions so we’ll come back and play sped up on defense! It is all a strategy to keep our guys energized. Against TT, except for the one brief period in the first half, we slowed down, and we slowed down to their pace… which totally neutralized our athletic advantage.
I’m saying the byproduct of us playing faster will, in most cases, start speeding up our opponent. And as long as we are maintaining our high energy level, who cares what they do. They’ll have to figure out how they can maximize their points on what possessions they have. It is rare, however, when you start building a big point spread on your opponent and they don’t try to change their game in order to prevent a complete blow out.
Also, we have the talent and athleticism to become an outstanding defensive team… even now! We need a bit more coaching, and a heck of a lot more energy on defense. Our low energy on defense is the reason why we are the worst (or one of the worst) defensive teams in the B12 when it comes to steals! With our athleticism and arm length, we should be creating plenty of steals, but we don’t put real pressure on the ball.
This is all about putting some fire under our guys’ buttocks.
Read Self’s comments about the TT game… and how he didn’t substitute because none of his guys were even winded… That should tell you that Tubby’s strategy, to neutralize our athletic advantage, worked brilliantly!
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@HighEliteMajor said it before, when we pressed like we did against Kstate to get OT, and also 2nd half against TCU, good things happen. We sped up and fed off of it. Great outlet passes up the court to see Wiggins, Selden, etc, in the open court would please the heck out of me! Really like to see us in the passing lanes esp. On the first pass.
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This is one of the best threads all season. Great writing, great points…
And now I’m jonesing after the ‘basketball heroin’ served by viewing Kevin Love’s outlet passes.
I’ll add a few things that I think we have been missing lately (mostly covered by others already):
- Passing that breaks the defense down. The kind of passing I’m talking about takes chemistry-- the team must play as a unit. Yes we pass, but lately, we don’t often make the kind of passes that create assists. We had 4 assists against Tech. Four! the whole team, the whole game. Outlet passes would be nice too. The video proves that – once upon a time – Embiid looked up the floor to see a teammate streaking to the basket.
We’ve had some great passing teams in the past and I guess I’m spoiled.
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Which brings me to fast breaks. Which just don’t seem to be in this team’s vocabulary.
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A love of opportunistic moments. This is sometimes known as a “killer instinct”. This team doesn’t seem to look for it. They make great plays and they beat the pants off a few teams like TCU. But to see the definition of opportunistic, see 2011-12 Jayhawks. Also see Butler under Brad Stevens and the legions of mid-majors who make up for the lesser talent by 1) not making mistakes, 2) playing hard and scrappy, and 3) seeking out the moment of weakness of the opponent and exploiting it.
I would like some more of #3 to go with all the talent!
When those two things come together, we’ll be hanging another banner in AFH.
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@bskeet think #1 has gotten better. I’m going w/#2, playing hard and scrappy!
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@Crimsonorblue22 Agreed… And I’m good with more floor burns
By the way-- for those with ESPN3, you can watch the replay of the game to see the first possession of the game that @drgnslayr mentioned. That’s an example of what I was talking about on #3. And there are several other times in the game when we wait for the opponent to set and don’t attempt to capitalize when we seem to have an advantage.
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@bskeet really feel like we can leave Ridley in the dust this next game, need to capitalize on that!
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I did a Google search and the great majority of references are in post in a couple of forums posted by fans (much like us) and you have to take those with a grain of salt. The first link you posted is exactly that, the second is a semi-generic comment by Jason King with no other information to back it up. The third link shows 3 outlet passes, all in the same game and two of them are very good but the third just about goes out of bounds.
Since the Towson game, he has not had many outlet passes that I can recall; in fact (and I could be wrong) I don’t recall any outlet passes during conference play. With a grand total of less than dozen outlet passes in his entire career, I think is premature to anoint hims as " one of the best outlet passers the game has ever had," don’t you think? Considering that players such as Love routinely have several per game.
I am not saying that he will not become a good or even a great outlet passer, but with KU’s current lack of emphasis on the fast break offense, and his current production record (outlet pass wise), all we can say is that he has great potential, wouldn’t you agree?
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This post is deleted!
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)@drgnslayr I think Tharpe has made some great strides since the beginning of the year. His lapses cause me to pause just when I think he’s turning a corner to consistency, he commits bball freshman 101 mistakes. He’s a junior pg and not too sure where his head is at times, but he has to turn that corner really sharp and take total control. His passive play or his yielding attitude is really effecting this team. Tharpe is either really on or really off. It’s called inconsistency. We need him to be Doron Lamb-like this year. Heck, Lamb was a soph when he led uk to a NC. I know Tharpe is no Lamb, but they have very similar personalities on the court. I hate that comparison, but it’s the only one that came to mind, especially in terms of NC comparisons. I know Tharpe can play unconscious too. I’ve seen him play outside of AFH. For example, before he came to KU, he played at the Kemba Walker bball camp and some other venues only to school many of the other players and fans.
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“Tharpe is either really on or really off. It’s called inconsistency.”
You nailed it with just a few words… something I have a hard time doing! Tharpe needs some pre-game zen. Many of the greatest players of all times would do it before stepping on to the court.
There were games after Towson where Embiid really whipped out hard “Kevin Love-like” outlet passes. We discussed it in here, about his ability to outlet the ball.
The fact that he hasn’t done it in conference is a mystery for this entire team. It takes two to tango, and he can’t whip a pass out to someone who isn’t out there to get it.
It will be a pity if we don’t see it return while he is at KU, because that is a big time weapon gone wasted if he doesn’t use it.
You will see it in the league… promise. He’s every bit as capable of a pinpoint rifle half court (or more) pass, just like Kevin Love.
I found links on our site:
Self: “We went on a 47-11 run to end the half. We were down 5-2 and then got cranked up pretty good. The guys played with good energy. We were much better defensively, much more active blocking shots. It seems like we had hands everywhere. We didn’t get a lot of steals, but it seemed like we caused some havoc. I thought we really got out and ran better than we have, and Joel (Embiid) made some unbelievable outlet passes to get us going. A lot of guys played well. It was pretty consistently good for the most part, but the second half got pretty sloppy.” That was after Towson.
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@Crimsonorblue22 I just posted some keys and one was to run Ridley in the ground. Need to pull him and force a switch, then let Ellis or Wiggins take him 1x1 to the hoop. He’ll get into foul trouble for playing D with his hands…attack, attack, and attack that big sack of potatoes. If we let him stand in the lane, he’s going to clog, push, hack, and pretty much manhandle as he did in the first game. We need to push him up and down the court. He’ll need oxygen before it’s all over. It will render him useless. Embiid needs to pull him out of the lane. He can’t post and go toe-toe with him. It didn’t work last game. Embiid’s first step will leave Ridley frozen. Embiid needs about 6’…bring him up to the free-throw line. Rickey boy will pack the lane and dare KU to beat them from outside. Our perimeter hasn’t been too threatening as of late. Hopefully we’ll spread the floor.
I can’t find my new post, but I also said KU will need to box, box, and box out on every single shot. We can’t give UT second chances. We need to get selfish on the boards. We’ve got to convert on TOs too.
My last key would be for the 6th man, the Phog, Jayhawk Nation to ROCK THE HOUSE. Rope those horns and move them out. It’s time to brand a great big KU on Bevo. I want to see that lost, dazed, confused look on Rickey’s face after it’s said and done. It’s that look of “WTH just happened.”
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@truehawk93 couple of pts, would love to set pace right off the bat, might even play Tarik pretty quick, if they’re in zone. The way Ridley threw Embiid down last time still makes my blood boil! I think Tarik was just coming back from ankle sprain, not 100%. If we can get the ball out and run, Embiid would have a field day! Did they zone us last time? Last, we got to slow their pt down!
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Tarik played only 6 minutes had 2 points, no rebounds and no fouls, which is amazing considering that he normally gets one at the scorer’s table when he checks in…:)
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@JayHawkFanToo I just want him on Ridley for awhile!
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Yes, have Black, Lucas and even Wesley all over him and either “rough” him up a little or draw fouls. If you get 2 or 3 quick fouls on him, he is essentially out of the game.
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The best move on Ridley is to attack his weakness… his weight. His weight limits his floor speed and endurance. If 5 Jayhawks run the floor on a defensive rebound we’ll force Barnes to bench Ridley… especially if we attack the rim immediately on our end, before Ridley can set in the post. Or he may take himself out of the game by fouling out! Embiid is great running the floor, and tomorrow he needs to run the floor and they need to pound the ball into him before Ridley can get set.
Hey… I just found this tidbit from one of Jesse’s articles about the TT game. It supports our thread on how pace hurt us in Lubbock:
"Stat of the Day
Texas Tech completely dictated the pace of play. According to StatSheet.com, KU had just 53 possessions, which was its lowest total in a game during Self’s 375 games with the Jayhawks. The 53 possessions also were the least by any Big 12 team in any game this season. To give some context, KU hadn’t had a game below 63 possessions all season until Tuesday."
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@truehawk93 Exactly. Like he was after the Cyclones beat down. Watching him on the news the last couple of nights here in Austin has been rather sickening, listening to all the excuses he has about losing. NONE of the local sports talking heads have picked UT to win tomorrow, especially after they were beaten by ISU. Oh it may be close, they say, but they said we will pull away late in the 2nd half and never look back. Plus they have talked about the “magic” of AFH and that it is THE loudest in the country. One even said Hilton Magic was NOTHING compared to AFH.
Rock Chalk!!!
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@drgnslayr That slow TT melt down of the shock clock killed me and then bailed them out with 2-3 sec left by fouling or allowing them to get a made shot off. The on-ball D needs improved NOW.
Anyone know which coach planned the scouting report? Self or Townsend?
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@RockChalkinTexas We may have bailed Rickey boy out by beating us. They’ve probably got something in his contract for beating KU. Beat KU once, keep your job. Beat KU twice, get a bonus. Beat KU and win the B12, we might sign you for the remainder of your coaching career.
There is a coach in the B12 where the AD actually placed a clause in the contract to provide the coach with incentive to beat KU: either Weber or Huggie Bear.
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Today’s OSU beatdown of TTech illustrates this entire thread. OSU kept pushing the ball, and kept pressure on defense, and they blew out TTech with ease. The parts of the game I watched showed TTech was sped up and shot most of their shots within the first 15 seconds of the shot clock. When you are down by 20, stalling out the game doesn’t benefit you…
We have another shot at TTech, this time at AFH. I bet we push the ball more and blow them out!
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@drgnslayr First, pretty much the best thread yet. Wish I was able to participate more. I can’t believe I let work actually interfere with posting.
But terrific point. I wanted that game as well and this was my exact thought. OSU controlled that game.
I would honestly assess that it was 50% offense (pushing the ball and pace), and 50% defense (with pressure? Your thoughts there?
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@drgnslayr Have to agree 100% with HEM above. Best thread analysis of guard play yet. Past 2 games vs UT & OU are prime time examples of how guard play sets & maintains the tone for the entire game. Nadir & Frank have been, IMO, exemplary in these contests even though Na endured poor shooting vs the Horns. He’s was 2-19 in 2 consecutive games, but broke out of the funk in the clincher vs OU. His D stepped up from my take & maintaining this level of consistency is paramount. When they can get in the lane like this, we’ve no shortage of scorers or rebounders to take up the slack. Like I posted before on a diff thread, I really hope this is a genuine metamorphosis & not an apparition.
“Stay Thirsty!”
Rock Chalk, Ten Straight!
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@globaljaybird
Bazzzongo! (kind of like “PHOFF!”)
Tharpe did an outstanding job in both games! He just needs to keep the pace moving, without getting them too sped up. There is a happy speed where these guys run best. This seems to be the #1 determinant for how these guys play.
Maybe Self can send him secret pace tweak code from the bench… it works for baseball… why not basketball?
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@drgnslayr Yeah, & if that fails, an oily two-by-four that won’t bend, splinter, or break just might do the trick. Some guys have posted that maybe he was trying to play within his limitations, & that very well may have been & the case, but the genies’ out of the bottle now, & he ain’t goin’ back in. His team mates shouldn’t allow it they way they’ve affirmatively responded to the pace, & henceforth ratcheted up the D. As long as he can push the FF button like he has the past 2 games, I’m alright with his mistakes, understanding full well though, Bill has his limits. IMO the upside is the best chance we have to run into April. Reminds me of what Dad used to say-“Do something damnit, even if it’s wrong.” Once he said that it better be a**holes & elbows for the rest of the job.
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@globaljaybird Lol - I like your dad’s sayings. Maybe you should start a new thread that we could all contribute our dad’s favorite sayings.
One I remember hearing a lot is :Why don’t you use that head for something besides growing hair ?
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I repeated a few of my dad’s sayings at his service -fathers have a ton of great advice-some with humor right? How about “Hurry every time you think about it.” He also told me in the 70’s. " Nobody will conquer the US, it will be destroyed from within." Not to get into a political, but I never thought I’d see what has come of the country I grew up in and it makes me feel bad for the next generation and beyond. So, another good one was " the older my father got, the smarter he was."
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@globaljaybird
It’s just amazing how one feeds the other. As long as we keep the pace right, the d seems to play harder, and when the defense plays harder, the pace stays up.
Brilliant idea! I remember when my dad wanted to slam someone’s intelligence he would say, “move their plate 6 inches and they’ll starve to death!” His upbringing included hunger and poverty, which he quickly worked his way out of… so I guess it had the most meaning for him. Luckily, he provided his family with enough…
Totally agree… somehow my father got smarter as I became an adult. Funny how that works!
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When we are young we THINK father knows everything.
As we get into our teens we BELIEVE father doesn’t know anything.
As we get older and have kids of our own, we KNOW father did know everything after all.
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@JayHawkFanToo VERY TRUE
