More Flag/Anthem Controversy
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Does your opinion change now that most of the owners have publicly stated their support, some even coming down to the field to stand or kneel with their team? I think it was you (could be wrong) that had said previously that players shouldn’t do this on “company time”. Now that they have sign off from the owner, is it okay to continue the protests?
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Also, just wanted to post this link of a Green Beret talking about his conversation with Colin Kaepernick where he encouraged Kaepernick to kneel rather than sit during the anthem.
Obviously its from last year, but I thought it might give a different perspective from a military guy that actually spoke to Kaepernick about his protest.
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No. The lack of respect for the flag and national anthem is not abated by the owners allowing it to happen. You understand the owners have to have good relation with the players and not many of them are not willing to alienate them; same thing with reporters. When revenue continues to drop and the checks to the NFL become smaller, we will see how it works out. Networks have already issued refunds for advertisement when the projected viewership was not met.
We will also see what happens to Alejandro Villanueva from the Steelers after his coach threw him under the bus. Now, Ben Roethlisberger has publicly indicated he is having second thoughts about the boycott.
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@JayHawkFanToo http://www.espn.com/blog/pittsburgh-steelers/post/_/id/25288/full-transcript-alejandro-villanueva-on-steelers-pregame-ordeal http://es.pn/2jWl5Pb
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After what the coach said afterwards, what exactly did you expect him to do?
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@JayHawkFanToo already read it
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Try to count the paper a$$hole posts on this thread?? Hint-you won’t even need to take off your shoes …
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Jerry Jones knelt for a few second BEFORE the anthem anthem and then he and the rest of the team stood up for the anthem…a little detail you left out…
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@JayHawkFanToo Whoa, you figured that out 5 days later? Did I say otherwise? Yes, I must have tried to hide something by calling attention to him! Is there any post you don’t try to correct?
My point, since you missed it just as you were totally blind to @justanotherfan’s first post, is that I liked what he did. He knelt with his players. There was absolutely no other reason to do it except to show respect for the players’ right to protest. Then when standing he locked arms with his players, showing the unity between them and him despite the President’s diatribe trying to tell owners what to do. That was the point of the rest of my post (thought I’d help you out here).
And yes, they stood for the anthem. A classy move, I thought. And still got booed for locking arms and for having knelt before. What does that tell you about the people condemning the protestors?
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Ok lets try to bring the issue down a few notches? I know me the peacemaker? LOL
Lets paint a scenario here. Lets say you were invited to speak at a funeral of a family member or friend. And lets say this person has wronged you a few times, or did some stuff you were totally against? Would use the moment at this persons funeral while they lay died in that casket surrounded by their grieving spouse, children, family, and friends to air your grievances?
Everybody knows the Flag represents the falling soldiers of this country. Though the protest maybe valid, yet why air your grievances at a symbol that represents those men and women that have lost their lives defending your rights to protest? Reopening wounds of spouses and family members that have lost loved ones serving this country.
Doesn’t make sense to me.
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@DoubleDD You have made it very clear that it doesn’t make sense to you. That is what happens when people protest–they are trying to create enough controversy to draw attention to something, and some people are more upset about the means of protest than the problem provoking it. Just accept the fact that the flag does not always connote reverent feelings in some people who feel it has been used to excuse trampling other people’s hopes and dreams. I am someone who does not approve of protesting this way, but I understand it.
All you have to understand is that not everybody feels the way you do.
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If a person has a valid protest, which maybe they do. ((yet I think black on black crime is greater)). Why would you attack something that the majority of persons feel is scared. I mean you’re not helping your cause. Take me for example. I’m willing to hear the cause, I’m willing to listen, I’m willing to understand. Yet if you’re going to attack something that has nothing to do with your cause? I’m willing to not listen to what you have to say.
There is a time and a place to protest. I’m no superstar. I have a regular job as most of Americans. I’m not allowed to protest on my job. I’m not allowed to wear controversial items of clothing when I show up to work. Last time I checked NFL football is a job.
Why would you chose to protest something that represents those that have giving their lives so you can protest?
Answer that question? @mayjay
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Just for the record I respect your posts and opinions.
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DoubleDD said:
Why would you chose to protest something that represents those that have giving their lives so you can protest?
Answer that question? @mayjay
For a different perspective, see how this veteran discusses why seeing people kneeling in protest feels like it is a tribute to his service: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/formerlyfundie/one-sacrificed-stop-using-anti-take-knee-argument/
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I get it. Yet I work with a veteran personally, and I asked him how he feels. He said that’s what I fought for, yet he did say it hurts his feelings.
I
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Why oh why are people more concerned about how people treat the symbol than what the symbol represents?
I attended a college football game yesterday where the National Anthem was presented 15 min before the game and neither team was on the field. Not sure if this was intentional, but it made me wonder if this whole thing will continue to corrode the very thing that everyone is fighting for.
One thing that certainly has become more apparent is the power of symbols in the minds of the masses. It’s as if there is less tolerance of and more sensitivity to the Nazi flag than the beliefs and principles that it represents.
So when I hear such concern about disrespecting the symbols of freedom that they are willing to repress the very freedoms the symbols represent, I have to bow my head and say a little prayer for the country and its people.
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The flag is supposed to be a symbol of freedom, an expression of the ideals that, to quote “all men are created equal”.
As government employees, police officers hold a special place in our society. They are to uphold the law and administer justice. Justice, we are told, is blind. It doesn’t care who you are, the color of your skin, your religion, gender, income or anything else. It looks only at what you have done.
Except that the point of the protests is that police behavior has not been blind, but biased. Biased in a way that people are dying. Let me type that again so we are clear.
biased in a way that people are dying
Police misconduct is especially dangerous and damaging to society because if the police are acting inappropriately, who do you call? Who watches the watchmen?
And that is the crux of the protest. Its a symbol of freedom amd justice to fly the flag, but that freedom and justice is being perverted by a few bad apples that abuse the power and responsibility that comes with the badge and the oath they take.
And yet, rather than address that, many are critical of those who would hold these bad apples to the meaning of their oath, or worse, tell those protesting that they are the enemies of freedom and justice by calling attention to this injustice.
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. Silence isn’t an option because it ensures that nothing will change.
Black on black crime is certainly a problem within the African American community, but guess what - it is prosecuted and punished. Do you realize how rare it is for a police officer to be prosecuted and convicted for a shooting while on duty?
That’s the reason for the protest. Its not just that minorities are being killed by police - its that their deaths are not being punished. That’s the whole point of Black Lives Matter - that if you kill a black person without justification, their life should matter enough that the killer is brought to justice, even if that killer wears a badge and a uniform.
You can do whatever you want during the anthem. But patriotism is not fulfilled by putting your hand over your heart or standing at attention. Patriotism is representing the ideals of justice and freedom for all. If you’re not interested in that, your standing for a song and a banner is just an empty gesture, like buying your wife flowers on the way home from your seeing your mistress.
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Again what do you gain by attacking a symbol (flag) that so many deem pure and something that unites the people of all colors? Just like removing statues that represent a different time and place in history. Sure it makes those that feel offended feel a little better for a day, but it really changes nothing. In fact it does more harm than good. Oh sure there is the case of awareness that can be made. Yet isn’t this case falling on deaf ears because of the attacks on the flag and the anathema? So what are you gaining?
It’s almost comical, yet for the hypocrisy that is taking place. We want to defend those that believe in the desecration of the flag and anathema as freedom of speech, yet want to get all bent out of shape because a lot of people completely disagree with how the flag is being desecrated. Doesn’t everybody have freedom of speech?
As far as I can tell we’re not even talking about why this issue has brought the NFL players to their knees. Do we even know what the issue is anymore? What is the issue about anymore? Black pride?
So I ask? It maybe a worthy cause but all you’re doing is pissing off a lot of people with these protests. If awareness is the goal. I’m pretty sure everybody knows. So what’s the end game here? To actually get some real changes? or is it just sticking it this country and it’s values? So many that have protested have said it’s not about disrespecting the military, the flag, or the anathema. Then why do it? So you know how many women and men that have served this country and fought in wars they didn’t agree with? Yet they did because they took an oath to defend and protect this great country. So why disrespect these people to push your agenda? Just for the record there are more white people killed at the hands of cops than blacks.
MLK was a brilliant person. For you see he understood to truly gain equal rights and respect. You have to get those not in your camp to believe in your cause. He did just that. He didn’t disrespect people. He didn’t label them as racist, He didn’t spout about white privilege. He didn’t label the president of his time as a Hitler. No he spoke of his dream, and in doing that he captured the hearts of whites, blacks, and minorities. Americans love dreams.
Even if you don’t mean to disrespect the flag/anathema? That’s what you’re doing. If we are going to destroy symbols of freedom and that unite us. Just because we think we have the right too? Then his country is further down the road to self destruction than I thought. I guess at this point all we can do is lower our heads and pray.
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It’s no more an attack on the flag than what many white people do on a daily basis. Don’t even get me started on that. The players are using their platform to draw attention to an issue they feel is a problem. They are within their rights as US citizens.
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US Flag Code Chapter 10.176I “The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever.”
US Flag Code Chapter 10.176I (pt 2) “It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like…”
US Flag Code Chapter 10.176I (pt3) “…or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard.”
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@BShark I am sure that there are many historical tweets from the Prez calling for boycotts of these products. I just seem to have missed them.
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mayjay said:
@BShark I am sure that there are many historical tweets from the Prez calling for boycotts of these products. I just seem to have missed them.
Trump’s twitter is completely ridiculous.
Tells Obama to get it together with hurricane relief years ago. Out golfing when Puerto Rico (part of the US) is in dire need of help.
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Well I tried to have a sensible conversation. Well now some have turned to bashing Trump. Like Obama never played golf when his country needed him?
Oh and do some research on Puerto Rico. The supplies are there waiting to be dispersed. It appears the liberal government officials of Puerto Rico are playing some politics with people lives.
Anyways the NFL numbers are down. Directv is offering refund to their NFL packages. Fans are burning their memorable and tickets. But hey keep doing what your doing, because it seems to be working so well.
Thank God for the internet. Now the real voices and stories can get out.
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Crazy racists are burning their memorabilia and tickets*
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At one time in this great country. Racist used to mean:
“a person who shows or feels discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or who believes that a particular race is superior to another”
Now if you disagree with someone your a Racist. I’m pretty sure those burning their memorable and tickets because of the lack of respect for the American flag and anthem are indeed not racist. After all there have been white football players kneeling too. Not to mention these same fans bought all that memorable and tickets before some felt it was ok to disrespect the flag and anthem. They weren’t racist before, but now there’re racist??? LOL
Reality. It’s not really that your a racist. It’s because that person has lost the argument and has now resorted to name calling, and bashing the very person that is blowing holes in their argument. Its what they do. Instead of taking a step back and thinking about the issue and arguments that are being made. They push forward by changing the rules of the game. Realizing they have a weak argument, yet can’t admit maybe they could be wrong. They resort to name calling and using the racist card.
Some things never change.
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Chiefs!
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@Crimsonorblue22 beat the drum Salvy!
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Just for the record I’ve burned no jersey’s or tickets. With a little research a person will find that not all NFL players are showing disrespect for a symbol of freedom.
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@DoubleDD @BShark maybe y’all should just agree to disagree and see things from an independent point of view lol. Trump has sent help to Puerto Rico, I work with people who are only at our plant to help with projects that are from Puerto Rico. They are getting help from several places. Trumps twitter account is stupid and looks like a pissed off 12 year old is running it most the time. Racist just means someone that disagrees with a democrat in this day and age (see last 3 campaigns). Trump is so racist that Will Smith had him guest star on the fresh prince when I was a kid. I kinda think of politics as a business, could imagine how quickly you’d go out business if your slogan was "Use Roberts roofing, cause if you don’t you’re racist!
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@kjayhawks Fwiw I don’t believe Trump is actually racist but he played America like a fiddle during the election.
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@BShark yes he did, Obama care hasn’t been repealed and the swamp hasn’t been drained. The trouble is name me politician who’s not full of shit.
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Wall isn’t up yet either, lol.
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That’s funny I thought it took the house and senate to pass these things you speak of. Can’t blame Trump for trying? Because he is trying. Yet some are standing in the way. Not going to mention names. Yet somehow I think voters are going to remember who is standing in the way. Good luck with midterms and the next presidential elections. LOL
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Trumps medical plan was the worst thing ever. Pure garbage.
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Disappointed that Peters still sat down for the anthem and pre-game festivies after it was dedicated to the victims of the Las Vegas shooting which includes off duty police officers that were injured trying to help. I agree it’s his right, just kinda chicken ***t IMO. I laughed a little when he was burned for 2 TDs.
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Yea like Obama care is killing it. Oh wait maybe it is?
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The protest has always been about police violence against minorities. Kaepernick said that in the beginning, its been repeated many times over. A lot of people have tried to make it about the flag, but that has never been what it is about. It’s about police violence.
Martin Luther King, Jr. was brought up by @DoubleDD. I think MLK is actually an excellent example of what is going on right now, but for completely different reasons.
This fivethirtyeight.com article talks specifically about public opinion of MLK.
Most Americans didn’t approve of the Freedom Riders (mixed race groups that rode interstate buses into the south to challenge the lack of enforcement of the Federal ruling that discrimination in busing was illegal) in the 60’s. Most didn’t approve of the March on Washington in 1963 where King gave his now famous “I have a Dream” speech. I find it funny that @DoubleDD mentions this speech specifically as the “right way” to go about things, nevermind that it was HUGELY unpopular at the time.
And MLK himself, in a 1966 Gallup poll, was viewed negatively by 63% of all Americans.
Sixty three percent of all Americans viewed Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. negatively in 1966
In 2011, 4% of Americans viewed MLK negatively.
History is funny like that. When you stand on the side of equality, history will smile on you long after you are gone.
When you don’t, you end up like George Wallace. Many Americans applauded him for standing in the schoolhouse door to prevent integration. I doubt you can find more than a handful of people that would champion that now.
Wallace ended up on the wrong side of history. What he did was popular at the time, but looks absolutely ridiculous now because he was fighting to preserve inequality.
MLK was unpopular at the time, even up to his death and probably for some time afterwards, but he’s revered now by people all around the world, of every race, because he was fighting for equality.
Curt Flood was unpopular (vilified and blackballed - hmmm, where have we seen that) after challenging the reserve clause. Although he was an outstanding player, his legacy lives on as the man who had the courage to challenge the reserve clause.
Booing players that kneel may be popular now, but in 30 years, will those same fans be embarrassed to tell their children and grandchildren that they booed Colin Kaepernick and burned the jerseys of players that knelt in the same way that those who hosed down and attacked marchers on the Edmund Pettus bridge in 1965 are now ashamed of their actions? Will an explanation escape them, the same as it does for those who can’t explain why they opposed sit-ins at diner counters?
I don’t know. I honestly don’t. But I am a student of history, and history has taught me that if you are on the side of equality, history will tend to smile on you, while those who stand silently aside, or worse, fight for inequality, are always reflected in that light in the end.
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A lot of fans at the Chiefs game-just saying!
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DoubleDD said:
Again what do you gain by attacking a symbol (flag) …
at·tack əˈtak
verb: take aggressive action against (a place or enemy forces) with weapons or armed force, typically in a battle or war.
“in December, the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor”Please tell me which athlete “attacked” the flag?
That’s some pretty strong rhetoric to start your post. To be honest, I stopped right there and didn’t read the rest. I will go back and read the rest because I care to hear what you have to say…,
My point is that the ‘voices’ that are being used in the debate aren’t voices that seek to bridge the divide. The voices are juiced with intent to forcibly persuade rather than to inform… on both sides
Sorry to single out one word in your post, but it serves as a good example of what I see as an epidemic of hyperbole.
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Comparing the players of the NFL and their disrespect of the American Flag to what MLK did is like trying to compare an apple to a carrot.
Understand MLK was not disrespectful to others. Sure his movement and thoughts were unpopular at the time. Yet he was not disrespectful. In fact he made it a point not to be disrespectful to others. For he knew to realize his dream he needed others outside his base to make it happen. He needed to unite the people for his cause.
You’re not going to unite people disrespecting the American Flag and Anthem. Thereby meaning your not going to get people to join your cause. Meaning your not going to be remembered in a lighter view. I find it humorous that some keep arguing with me that it’s ok to disrespect the Flag and Anthem and their will be no backlash. Yet as each day goes by the NFL is losing more viewership. People are tuning out, not only the game but the cause of the protest all together. I too am a student of history. And if History has taught us anything? It would be that the method that one uses to bring the message is just important as the message it’s self.
So again tell me how disrespecting the flag and anthem is going to work? I’m being told I’m wrong. Yet all the stats, polls, and dollars signs indicate I somewhat know what I’m talking about.
I mean what is the message anyways? I’m watching Football players interview and they swear it’s all about Trump? Some say it’s about police brutality? Same say it’s about Black equality.
Somewhere in all this the true message is dying.
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How do we feel about this 49 years later:
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Your response is kind of reinforcing my point about disinterest in bridging the divide.
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What divide do you want to bridge? And how are you going to win my interest to your cause when you go out of your way to call me out in your post? Not only calling me out but making your whole post about me. Not to mention the post had nothing to do with the topic, but was ATTACKING me for what you viewed as a miss use of the word. ATTACK. You were wrong. I used the word just as it should have been used. So now why should I trust you? Why would I want to build a bridge? You don’t care what I have to say?
I don’t know how many times I have to say it? I have no problem with the NFL Players protesting. I’m just pointing out the method with which is being used to protest is not winning them or the cause any support.
Yet all I keep hearing is it their right. It is their right. OK it’s their right, and then keep doing what your doing and lets see how far this protest goes and accomplishes?
If anybody has tried to bridge the gap. It’s been me. As I acknowledge the rights of persons to protest. Just speculating that disrespecting the Flag and Anthem may not be the best way to gain support for your message.
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We may disagree, but I have to give you credit for engaging in the dialogue. Too many people refuse to engage in the dialogue. I hope that you have gained some perspective from the things that I have written. I have certainly gained some perspective from reading your posts.
The challenge is that the first issue is to raise awareness. Many people assume that police violence against minorities happens only because of actions on the part of minorities, and not due to policies and practices of law enforcement. Perhaps you are aware (perhaps not, as its a little known fact), that there is no central database cataloging all police stops, or even all police shootings in the US. No one could produce good statistics on this if they tried because the data doesn’t exist (the DOJ is currently blocking or undoing reforms put in place by the Obama administration that would have funded such statistical information gathering).
To raise awareness you have to do something that draws attention. You have to sit at lunch counters where you aren’t welcome. You have to call in the National Guard to go to class. You have to walk across a bridge in Selma. You have to March on Washington. You have to bow your head and raise your fist in Mexico City. You have to boycott buses in Montgomery. You have to Freedom Ride from the north to the south.
If no one challenges the status quo, inequality remains. Every time a young black or brown person was shot by police, there was an immediate chorus of people saying what they did wrong, or citing their record, etc. It was all about excuses. Cops make split second decisions, shouldn’t be second guessed, tough job… All of those things are absolutely true. The job is tough. Part of the reason it is tough is because we are hoping, no, we are depending on the good judgment of the men and women bestowed with that badge to protect us.
A few weeks ago an officer in St. Louis was acquitted in the shooting death of a black man. On the dashcam video he is clearly heard saying that he intended to kill the man when they caught him after the police chase. If there was evidence that any of us said we were going to kill someone and that person died at our hand within six months, there would be little chance that we could argue self defense. Any of us, black or white, would likely go to prison for murder. Yet somehow, this police officer was acquitted because he says that he believed the individual was reaching for a gun (the gun found on the scene did not have the victim’s DNA on it, but it did have the officer’s).
There are dozens of cases like this, but every time something like this happens, the refrain just plays again. split second decision…thought they were reaching for a weapon…feared for my life…ACQUITTAL.
Something had to be done to break that cycle. Not something violent. Not even marching in the streets, where the tensions between black protesters and police have become even more testy. So what to do. Take a knee. Raise a fist. Not in disrespect, but to raise awareness that something is not right.
It cannot be silenced now. A discussion must be had. Things must change.
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Ironically, I agree with some of the points that you are making, just not with the way you are saying it.
You seem to protest that I should not have a qualm with the words you choose. You argue that the words you used are correct.
What again is your point about the displays of protest against the flag?
Is it that you don’t agree with the approach they chose to express themselves?
Hmmmm.
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@justanotherfan I don’t take anything Kaepernick says serious. Scream racism and oppression while saluting Castro and Guevara. What I get outta that is don’t send your kids to Nevada for college. What’s next prasing Sadam or Hitler. I believe peaceful protest is fine, it’s a ton better than to hear democrats defend standing on building and shooting cops that had nothing to do with stuff several states away happening.
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I don’t believe you. Somebody else threw out the word racism like giving out candy at a parade. Yet you had no problem with that. You had no problem with somebody calling another person a racist because they were against kneeling at the presence of the Flag or Anthem. Nope not even a beep.
Yet somehow me using the word Attack to describe the actions being taking by this latest protest, you find offensive?
You know if you really thought about It? You would see I’m trying to help to help the cause. I’m pointing out a very real threat to this cause. Going into deep detail how the PR that this protest is getting isn’t helping the cause.
I haven’t said one thing against the actual message? No I haven’t. Just pointing out that the method that is being used might not reap the rewards many so desire. By disrespecting the Flag/anthem you not creating unity. You’re creating division. This is never a good thing. Two wrongs never make a right.
You don’t even see it? We are looking past the obvious. If kneeling in protest of the Flag/Anthem is working? Then why aren’t we having the conversation on how to fix the problem? No were fighting about ones rights versus disrespecting the flag. As a society we have gained nothing but more division. There is no unity here.
No sir you don’t respect what I have to say, and you don’t like me. You’ve made that very clear with your basely accusations. You turned a blind eye to the use of a word so horrific, and evil. A word like Racism. Yet you went out your way to scold me for using word that can be used in many ways in the English language. (Attack)
No sir you showed your cards. I know where you stand.
