Bad year for recruiting



  • KU is ranked 35th in the country! Behind Texas, ISU, OU, and TCU! Only one Big XII school (Texas) in the top 25. Gotta get out of this conference.

    http://247sports.com/Season/2017-Basketball/CompositeTeamRankings



  • @chriz surely pulling a mcd frosh big, a lanky guard that was POY in Texas, a big transfer than can play right away and a couple transfers that were beasts in their conference and open up a pipeline to several other ranked family members should be considered a strong class.



  • @approxinfinity I guess not as concerned about us as I am our conference. Confident we’d be a bit stronger even with all the transfers if we were in a better conference



  • approxinfinity said:

    @chriz surely pulling a mcd frosh big, a lanky guard that was POY in Texas, a big transfer than can play right away and a couple transfers that were beasts in their conference and open up a pipeline to several other ranked family members should be considered a strong class.

    No.

    The rankings are based on new recruits only, not transfers. The transfers do not belong to the same “class”.

    Such rankings are meaningless when you have a roster with so many transfers.

    I don’t know if the other teams in the conference have lots of transfers or JUCO guys: how about Iowa State?



  • @ParisHawk I think that was @approxinfinity 's point. I agree, I just think we’d be even higher if we played elsewhere. You can’t tell me Self didn’t seeing and miss on a few without conference coming into play in the decision making



  • If we didn’t have Devonte, Newman, Vick, Svi, and Doke, I’m sure our recruiting would’ve been much better. It’s pretty difficult to land a 5 star recruit when you don’t have minutes available for them. So, what would we rank a Dedric Lawson? If he comes in, and averages 19 ppg/9 rebounds like last year, he’d have better numbers than JJ did. So, we’re getting a guy that averaged more points and boards than the number 1 recruit for 2016 had with us …so, would Dedric be considered the number 1 recruit then? His brother is known for his defense, and was no slouch either in ppg and rebounds. Moore is a very promising combo guard. He is a little toughie. These are major gets that will pay off tremendously next year.This roster is LOADED. No room at the inn.

    We’re much bigger than the B12. We have our own Monday night tv series during the season. I agree the rest of the Big 12 (sans UT ) is falling off a cliff in recruiting, although I like what OU has done.



  • @chriz

    A couple of flaws in your argument.

    First, regardless of what conference KU plays in, it would not be playing elsewhere, it would still be playing in Lawrence, Kansas and that seemed to be an issue with some players that prefer the coasts.

    Second, KU has a lot of players coming back and not a lot of potential playing time available which naturally limits the recruits that wil be interested, regardless of conference affiliation.

    Third, the rankings do not count transfers which are now an important source of players. Had they counted Cunliffe and Whitman KU is probably top 10. Next season, if KU does not sign anyone else other than the 3 players that will be eligible, the Lawsons and Moore, and based on their ratings, and more importantly experience, KU class would likely be ranked top 10 but under the current ranking it would not even be listed. Someone needs to come up with a ranking that considers all incoming players.

    Last, how changing conferences would change anything for KU? KU is ranked low on the rankings you cited but as shown above they are grossly misleading and would not be any different if KU played in the ACC or any other conference. Did you notice that Texas and Big 12 member is ranked #5, defending champion and ACC member UNC #17 and and previous defending champion and Big East member Villanova #25? Maybe the last two should change conferences?



  • ParisHawk said:

    approxinfinity said:

    @chriz surely pulling a mcd frosh big, a lanky guard that was POY in Texas, a big transfer than can play right away and a couple transfers that were beasts in their conference and open up a pipeline to several other ranked family members should be considered a strong class.

    No.

    The rankings are based on new recruits only, not transfers. The transfers do not belong to the same “class”.

    Such rankings are meaningless when you have a roster with so many transfers.

    I don’t know if the other teams in the conference have lots of transfers or JUCO guys: how about Iowa State?

    ISU brought in a couple grad transfer posts AGAIN this year.

    Also there is a very good chance they are going to lose their ditr guard commit Darius McNeill.



  • @chriz

    Agreed.

    Stick to guns

    KU recruiting appears at the low point of the Self era.

    When transfers are the core of your recruiting class you’re in bailing wire mode.

    Not being able to recruit incoming freshman indicates how the apparent recruiting embargo is hollowing out KU BASKETBALL’s long term foundation.

    Self’s formula is increasingly to add an OAD to a Tulsa team with good shooters, shoot the Trey 15-25 times per game, and rotate a big project in the paint for some muscle.

    Mozart is conducting the Tulsa Philharmonic and adding a virtuoso or two from Vienna each concert season. Only Mozart could make it sound so good, but he still should be playing with an orchestra full of virtuosos from Vienna.



  • The Big Three from Detroit once built the best affordable cars, because market constraints permitted it.

    Then the “value engineering” started.

    Chrysler Cordobas with Corinthian leather and ugly bumpers instead of overhead cams and redesigned bodies to gracefully integrate new bumpers.

    American cars stopped trying to be the best affordable cars.

    They were engineered to lose the least money in market retreat, while the hollowing out occurred.

    KU appears to be being value engineered to win conferences instead of rings and max out at Elite Eights.

    Tulsa with an OAD or two.

    A national championship only by backing into one by pure luck.

    Value engineering.

    I’m not being critical of Self. I believe he is making the best of a bad situation. He is making near silk from ear of asymmetric sow.

    Retreat is necessary when advance is not possible and holding means total destruction.

    Winston Churchill retreated for several years.

    Self would probably fill the rosters with top freshmen, if he could, same as Cal–if the apparent embargo did not appear to obstruct that.

    Winston didn’t just keep retreating though. While back pedaling, he maneuvered USA into the war on his side, so he could go back on the offensive. KU needs to maneuver a new ally. Self’s tactical brilliance is not a long term alternative to the need for a new grand strategy.

    Just calling it what it all appears to be.

    The naysayers shout: but we are ranked Number 2 next season!

    Pre season rankings are worth about as much as an OAD with too much baggage to be signed by Duke, UNC, or U.K. They apparently signify hype, eyeball and bet balancing management, and possibility, not probability. Signing a comparable share of the best players seems the only way out of value engineered basketball.

    Self appears to be bridging and amazingly successfully.

    But the other side of the River Shoe still appears out of sight.



  • 2017 recruiting isn’t the embargo. We’ve known for awhile this was a potentially small class and KU already had Newman and Preston was a pretty early commit. KU simply didn’t have minutes available in 2017-18 when recruiting was at its peak. Not the first time and not the last time it’ll happen.



  • @Texas-Hawk-10

    I want to believe you about no hypothetical embargo and PT being the problem.

    Explain again why Duke, UK and UNC do not appear to be constrained by PT and do not appear to suffer these sorts of recruiting classes?

    If it’s just a matter of them having more turnover and there were no hypothetical embargo, then all Self would have to do would be to start signing the same share of the same kinds of players generating the same turnover and same PT availability as theirs do, and we’re out of the problem of these sorts of classes, right?

    Hmmm.

    It seems we are back to why won’t the same quality of players with the same rate of turnover allowing the same kinds of PT and so allowing the same kinds of recruiting classes to sign with apparently one of the best coaches with the best winning percentage the last ten seasons?

    Would Self sign 5 OADS each season, if he just had enough PT to offer, or does he not have enough PT to offer, because a hypothetical embargo prevents him from signing 5 OADs and so has only a little amount of PT?

    Again, I want to believe there is no hypothetical embargo.



  • @jaybate-1.0 I didn’t say there was no embargo, I just didn’t see it impacting the 2017 class nearly as much as the players KU had coming back impacted 2017 recruiting.

    Everybody knew Mason was gone, but everybody knew Newman was already here to replace him. Graham was the key player and he stayed for guard recruiting. JJ was known to be gone and Marcus Garrett committed in July so Svi was the key player and he dragged out his decision past the signing period so even if he went, there was nobody available at that point. Lucas was known to be gone and KU signed potential OAD Preston in November. There was nothing else needed in the front court that was needed because Azubuike was always coming back because of his age. Whitman is Self caring more about 2018 recruiting because it’s possible KU loses their entire starting line up after and needs those scholarships to fill in around the Lawson’s, Cunliffe and Moore.

    Cunliffe is one guy that the embargo argument holds water for in 2017 to me. The other side of the argument is that once it became apparent Graham was likely headed back, the need for a wing greatly decreased because Self likely believed a Vick/Svi combo was better than any wing recruit Self could land in 2017.

    Considering KU’s history with wings, I don’t buy an embargo at the 3 for KU at any point. 2018 could be much more telling about the status of the embargo because KU could have up to 6-7 players leave this year with a minimum of 3. If KU only loses 3, we won’t know the embargo status again because Self already gas replacements for Graham, Svi, and Whitman on campus. If KU goes beyond 3, then we could get a glimpse of the status of the embargo and if we get up to 6-7 guys, we’ll know for sure the status of the embargo.



  • @Texas-Hawk-10

    Well, it’s at least nuanced. Thanks for elaborating.



  • KU only signed 2 players. That right there will drive recruiting rankings down because KU didn’t get much in the way of volume. Neither recruit was a top 10 recruit, either (Preston is 19, Garrett is 52 on 24/7). However, KU does bring in, as mentioned above, Newman (former McDs AA and #8 overall recruit in 2015) and Sam Cunliffe (#39 recruit in 2016). If those two guys counted, KU would probably be ranked behind Texas at 5, but somewhere in the mix with Louisville and Alabama (both of those schools have more players, but KU definitely has more incoming talent than Alabama, and maybe more than Louisville).

    So while the ranking may say 35, the truth is this is easily a top 10 class of incoming talent.



  • JayHawkFanToo said:

    First, regardless of what conference KU plays in, it would not be playing elsewhere, it would still be playing in Lawrence, Kansas and that seemed to be an issue with some players that prefer the coasts.

    If we played in the ACC or even Big 10, we would play more teams on the coasts, and I do think that would help us.

    Second, KU has a lot of players coming back and not a lot of potential playing time available which naturally limits the recruits that wil be interested, regardless of conference affiliation.

    Third, the rankings do not count transfers which are now an important source of players. Had they counted Cunliffe and Whitman KU is probably top 10. Next season, if KU does not sign anyone else other than the 3 players that will be eligible, the Lawsons and Moore, and based on their ratings, and more importantly experience, KU class would likely be ranked top 10 but under the current ranking it would not even be listed. Someone needs to come up with a ranking that considers all incoming players.

    Agreed, I realize that KU has a lot of transfers and the impact that has. Playing time, etc. The lack of success in other Big XII schools is alarming and indicate of conference/region issues.

    Last, how changing conferences would change anything for KU? KU is ranked low on the rankings you cited but as shown above they are grossly misleading and would not be any different if KU played in the ACC or any other conference. Did you notice that Texas and Big 12 member is ranked #5, defending champion and ACC member UNC #17 and and previous defending champion and Big East member Villanova #25? Maybe the last two should change conferences?

    Yeah but ACC, SEC, BIG 10, and PAC 12 all outrecruited the Big 12 right?


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