Haters, wanna challenge our Conference?
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@HighEliteMajor said:
I am not convinced of a vast conspiracy to screw the Big 12. Seemed to me that we have had many well paved paths that we’ve managed to screw up.
I would also say, generally, that the best players do not come for the hard streets of the inner city. That is, most of these kids are at prep schools and have already ventured away from their home towns. Different age right now.
Really, though, any efforts to explain catastrophic failures, or to make excuses for a long term epidemic is a losing proposition.
2011 comes to mind immediately. That is one that still really stings for me. Title was completely there for the taking. I firmly believe KU was the best team that year. C’est la vie.
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@jaybate-1.0 Come on 'Bate - I know you can do better than that. I’m counting on you. You have a fascinating hypothesis that KU’s and the B12’s underperformance is the result of whistle and seeding asymmetry. You may well be on to something. But, don’t give us verbiage - give us some facts. I’m sure the truth - the data - is out there to support your hypothesis. Do some spade work - go find it - I’m counting on you!!!
I’m sure the evidence will show that during the tournament (in contrast to the non-conference season, of course), KU and B12 teams have consistently had fewer free throw attempts than their opponents - esp. when those opponents are from the Eastern time zone or wear a certain shoe brand. I’ll bet you will find that KU and B12 have consistently had to travel further to tournament sites than teams in other conferences - their hotels have probably been further away from the arena, as well - contributing to tire legs and poor shooting percentages from deep. I’m sure you can do a regression analysis to show that the B12 teams have been consistently under-seeded relative to their statistical metrics meaning that they’ve had to face tougher teams. I’m highly confident that you will find that the B12’s poor W-L in the tournament is indeed highly asymmetric - they have a winning record against small TV market teams, but a losing record against major TV market teams - esp. those in the Eastern time zone.
I realize my explanation of inferior talent - based on NBA performance - is sadly lame and is as much a symptom as it is cause. You definitely have the more compelling hypothesis - so I’m counting on you to find the data that supports - I know it’s out there - go find it 'Bate!!! You can do this…
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@DCHawker said:
@jaybate-1.0 Come on 'Bate - I know you can do better than that. I’m counting on you. You have a fascinating hypothesis that KU’s and the B12’s underperformance is the result of whistle and seeding asymmetry. You may well be on to something. But, don’t give us verbiage - give us some facts. I’m sure the truth - the data - is out there to support your hypothesis. Do some spade work - go find it - I’m counting on you!!!
I’m sure the evidence will show that during the tournament (in contrast to the non-conference season, of course), KU and B12 teams have consistently had fewer free throw attempts than their opponents - esp. when those opponents are from the Eastern time zone or wear a certain shoe brand. I’ll bet you will find that KU and B12 have consistently had to travel further to tournament sites than teams in other conferences - their hotels have probably been further away from the arena, as well - contributing to tire legs and poor shooting percentages from deep. I’m sure you can do a regression analysis to show that the B12 teams have been consistently under-seeded relative to their statistical metrics meaning that they’ve had to face tougher teams. I’m highly confident that you will find that the B12’s poor W-L in the tournament is indeed highly asymmetric - they have a winning record against small TV market teams, but a losing record against major TV market teams - esp. those in the Eastern time zone.
I realize my explanation of inferior talent - based on NBA performance - is sadly lame and is as much a symptom as it is cause. You definitely have the more compelling hypothesis - so I’m counting on you to find the data that supports - I know it’s out there - go find it 'Bate!!! You can do this…
+10000
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@HighEliteMajor The question you ask–pretending results can be isolated from reality of the programs that got them–is as ridiculous an exercise in fantasy as my granddaughter asking, “Would you like me better as a werewolf, or as a vampire?” The choice cannot be made isolated from the program. Of course people would rather have more titles than one.
Since the question you ask is meaningless in the real world, I repeat that in the actual world of comparing programs, I am happy to be a Jayhawk. History and victories and losses to boot. Because that is called taking the good from the bad.
Welcome back. I see you have decided to bring back the snide again. Oh, yay.
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This thread is going in circles and becoming repetitive and confrontational.
Perhaps this would be a good time to end it and move on to newer and more productive threads.
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The B12 is easily the most competitive and entertaining IMO. The teams are very evenly matched, but that doesn’t make us a great league. If we want to be up with the ACC, we have to perform in the NCAAs. That’s just the way it is. I think we are only getting 5 this year so hopefully we can have 3 or 4 make it outta the first weekend.
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@HighEliteMajor said:
I’ve asked this question before. From 1999, would you rather have UConn’s Tournament resume or KU’s?
There is absolutely no reasonable person on the face of this planet that could say KU. None. No reasonable person would turn their nose at four NCAA Tournament Championships. None.
You’re a much smarter person than I, but I’m going to walk straight into the lion’s den anyway.
I guess I’m going to earn the label of “unreasonable” with this post because I don’t see how it’s fair to include failures within the context of the tourney as part of a team’s resume, but conveniently leave out the failure to even make the tourney as also being part of a team’s resume.
The fact is UConn missed the tourney in 2001, 2007, 2010, 2013 and 2015. By your argument it seems like you’re postulating that they didn’t fail in those years because they didn’t participate in the tourney. It’s a lot like Homer Simpson saying the way to avoid failure is to not try. Somehow, I think if we missed the tourney at just under a 30% clip for the past 20 years that would be completely unacceptable for most fans (certainly the ones on Buckets) and would certainly create endless topics of discussion on this board.
Of course we have had some bad endings in the tournament, but it’s a direct correlation to the number of consecutive times we’ve been in the tournament. It’s a numbers game. The more times you play, the more times you will fail. It’s inevitable. I just don’t think you can say UCONN’s four championships look better in retrospect because of the winning percentage they have when making the tournament, especially if we are in agreement that winning takes some skill and some luck and some overcoming any asymmetry that exists in seeding. The fact is, they still missed the tourney 5 times in that span.
I certainly understand the argument for trading conference championships for national championships (and it’s something I would be willing to do BTW), but to make the case that reasonable KU fans would trade missing the tourney entirely at a regular clip for an extra ring or two doesn’t hold water with me. Unless I was grossly misinformed by Aesop in my youth, slow and steady wins the race and its just a matter of time until we close the gap in the race for rings due to the consistency of this program, something that you seem too quick to dismiss.
Blast away, my man.
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@DCHawker said:
I know you can do better than that. I’m counting on you.
C’mon, I never need to do better than that with you. You know that.
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Posted this a bit ago in a different thread, but seems worthy to toss in this conversation as well.
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@kjayhawks It is losing the first weekend (often to lower seeded teams) that has killed the B12’s tournament record. Major conference comparisons over the past 3 years according to CBSSports (recognizing it may be fake data and with no commentary on the causes):
ACC - 42-18 B10 - 30-20 SEC - 21-11 P12 - 20-17 BE - 16-14 B12 - 20-21
More teams in than any other conference during that time, but only one with a losing record. And, way below expected wins based on seed.
Last year the B12 was 9-7 – let’s hope we can improve on that this year…
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@DCHawker I don’t think location/seeding was the culprit. do you think is was that we’ve(b-12) have been overrated or not prepared?
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@autohawk Well, the only reasonable explanation is a lot of butterfly wings in China.
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@tis4tim it’s true that the more times you play in the tournament the more you lose, but we also haven’t won more because of playing in it over twenty consecutive years. That’s the heart of the issue. Me, I prefer final fours and titles over participation awards. Roy didn’t make the tourney in 2010 after winning the title, but that is something I would be ok with. Why? Because titles are hard to come by and you always take titles when you can get them. Some prefer the participation award I guess and put more emphasis on the regular season. Personally, I think tourney runs are way more exciting than the Big 12 race.
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@HighEliteMajor I think people don’t understand that we have one title in almost thirty years - one. I think Self is the one to lead KU to more tourney success but he needs to figure out how to prevent his teams from playing their worst in the tournament ala 2010 and 2011.
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@autohawk said:
@DCHawker I don’t think location/seeding was the culprit. do you think is was that we’ve(b-12) have been overrated or not prepared?
Well, as reflected in this thread, there a various theories regarding the B12’s poor performance relative to other major conferences and especially with regard to seed expectations. As I’ve noted elsewhere, I think it is primarily a function of a talent gap - breadth and depth of NBA-level talent - although that begs the question of why that talent deficit might exist.
From KU’s perspective, as opposed to the entire conference, I think part of the issue is that for 3 months, I don’t think KU gets the opportunities and challenges of matching up against as many other Final Four/E8 caliber teams as is the case year in and year out with the top of the ACC (Duke-UNC-Louisville plus even UVA, Syracuse, FSU and Notre Dame) with very different styles.
With regard to the conference as a whole, I do think we are “overrated” from the standpoint of the benefits gained from having no really bad teams in the conference and for the most part avoiding bad losses during the non-conference schedule - which results in high SOS and RPI. But, that SHOULD cut the other way - if B12 are getting higher seeds than is probably warranted (which I think is the case), then B12 teams should be facing even weaker, lower seeded teams. The problem is that we’ve had several 2-5 seeded teams not get out of the first weekend - losing to lower seeded opponents.
Since B12 teams do have the worst tournament W-L record over the past 3 years of the major conferences, and an even worse record relative to seed expectation, I guess one could argue that almost definitionally we have been overrated.
But, again the reasons for the poor performance will continue to be debated. I lean more to talent and butterfly wings than some of the other more fanciful stuff postulated, but everyone is entitled to their own delusions…
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@mayjay i had heard that the European Peacock are flying all over China, so with their color being close to the KU colors, the future could be great for the Hawk nation!
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@mayjay I’m sorry, but your comment doesn’t make sense to me. Are you suggesting that you can’t answer the question?
You’ve said you are a lawyer. I 'm sure in the courtroom that you have insisted that a party just answer the question posed. Many times just a yes or no may be the instruction. That’s easy here. The other attorney, then, can redirect and permit them to give their explanation.
That’s all this is. Just wanting an honest answer the question. Your example of vampire or werewolf has no application, and you know that (being a lawyer). It is irrelevant.
The question is whether you would rather have UConn’s NCAA tourney resume, or KU’s ,from 1999 through the present? It requires nothing further.
Or, perhaps another way, to get around this manufactured impediment – assuming you get everything that is KU – the program, the coach, the arena, the historic significance, the fans, etc – would you simply swap with UConn our NCAA tourney resume from 1999 - the present?
The question can be answered in a vacuum, or isolated from the program, as you mentioned.
In a trial, you might ask a witness, “Do you drop the anvil off the roof?” That’s easy, answer it. It doesn’t matter if you were on the roof, or not. Whether it was a nice house, or not. Or whether folks were watching. Or how long you’d been at your job. It’s yes or no. The clarification and explanation can come later.
But you avoid the question because you know the answer, and it doesn’t fit with you narrative. The question being irrelevant to the real world? It is a simple question that allows you to work backwards in your assessment of our programs achievements.
You say you want the good with the bad? So, with that logic, you would not change the VCU loss into a national title, because the VCU loss is now who we are? I doubt that.
Do you have an answer to the question?
@tis4tim I can accept your point of view. In my little tunnel vision of a world on this topic, I may view it as unreasonable. Meaning I can’t fathom it. But we all value different things, which is very hard for me, again, to fathom when we’re talking national titles. You really wouldn’t sacrifice some NCAA tourney appearances for a nice shiny NCAA title ring? Or multiple title rings? Come on – they’re really shiny and look good in graphics on TV when comparing to other blue bloods. And as @HawkChamp mentioned, we have just one in nearly 30 years.
@StLJhawk - Great visual.
@DCHawker Great info.
Check and check mate.
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You are asking a specific question for which there is no specific answer, it is a matter of what your preference is…kind of …Red Pill or Blue Pill. All I offer is a choice…sounds familiar?
A few weeks ago I was visiting with a UConn fan and he said, I wish UConn was more like KU. At UConn we enjoy the Title for while and then spend the next few years in between living vicariously through our memories and talking about how to get rid of our coach and get one that will get us conference titles and to the NCAA consistently.
In short, it depends on whether you want to follow a team that is consistently good and wins conference titles and and occasional National Tilte and keeps you happy the great majority of the time except for a couple of week in March, or one that elates you a couple of weeks in March every 4 or 5 years and then you don’t necessarily suffer but not necessarily enjoy the rest of the time either.
You are trying to have people say that having UConn record is better because that is your personal preference but not everybody necessarily agrees with you and there is no right or wrong answer. Frankly, I prefer the first, i.e. KU, but then it is my opinion and again, it cannot be right or wrong since it is just an opinion, i.e. my own personal preference.
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@HighEliteMajor I see I confused you. My sentence, “Of course people would rather have more titles than one” mst have been opaque because I didn’t key it in to your resume envy of UConn or Duke.
PTSD from last year is starting to kick in. I refuse to enter your alternate universe of alternative facts any longer.
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@HighEliteMajor Even with the narrower question - KU’s or UConn’s tournament resume only since 1999 - like @jayhawkfantoo I would have to hedge. Would I prefer 4 titles rather than 1? Of course. But, I do like the fact that we are in the tournament with a high seed and the potential to win it all every year. We have high expectations, not just to get to a Final Four, but win it all in most years. That’s a high class problem, as they say. Missing the tournament altogether 5 times and having zero expectation of advancing past the first weekend in others; not sure I find that particularly enticing.
Having said that, the conventional wisdom, which I mostly ascribe to, is that national championships matter most when “ranking” programs over the arc of basketball history. Does anyone think Arizona is one of the top all time programs because they previously held the longest appearance streak? No. Does UCLA’s 13 consecutive conference titles compare in any way, shape or form to the 11 national titles? No. What 3 additional titles would do or would have done is significantly elevate KU in the court of public opinion/conventional wisdom. More titles than Duke and UNC, more than UConn and Indiana. Behind only UK and UCLA - and much more historical significance overall than the latter.
Personally, I would rather not have to trade. One more title is big - two more would be huge. Let’s go get 'em…
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@mayjay The question was regarding UConn’s tourney resume vs. KU’s, to include the fact that UConn missed the tourney a few years; not just titles. You didn’t confuse me at all. I do read what is written. Others find it very easy to honestly address the simple question. What is pretty obvious is that when things get a little uncomfortable, you start with insults, as opposed to the alternative choice of not responding. “Guiding star/rather be a Jayhawk fan”, “Snide”, “PTSD”, and further insults regarding “alternative facts.” But that’s how the “offended” roll these days. So, according to you – I’m not really a KU fan, I insulted you with an improper tone in my post, I have a mental disorder, and I lie. Nice look. You do not like to be challenged. Too bad.
@JayHawkFanToo I know you would rather have a tourney record that has one NCAA title instead of four, because it is KU’s, and that you value the NCAA tourney consistency vs. the titles. I think you were one that answered the simple question when it came up in a past season, just as you did here. It is completely a value judgment, as you say.
But on a small point, an opinion is different than a preference. You could have the opinion that Bill Self is a bad coach. That would be incorrect. Facts can refute opinions. You could have a preference to Bruce Weber as a coach over Bill Self (or vice versa). That is the irrefutable thing I think you are referring to, much like the preference to KU’s tourney resume over UConn’s (or vice versa).
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You really don’t have to choose. If you like Uconn so much go to UconnBuckets.com and bragg on them. If all you care about are championships you can even root for their womens team, they haven’t lost a game in years.
Personally I’m a KU fan. I don’t give a rats ass about any other teams failures or successes. KU’s consistency gives me a great season to watch with the possibility of a national championship every year. If KU was only good every few years I wouldn’t be disappointed as often in March as I’d expect the losses. But I’d rather be in the hunt every year.
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You two crack me up!
Appearance of Entertainment Values in Seeding–reported comments by UCinn HC Mick Cronin and SIU HC Barry Hinson.
Appearance of Recruiting Asymmetry-reported comments of Louisville HC Rick Pitino
Appearance of Recruiting Asymmetry and Whistle Asymmetry in Tourney–Reported comments of UW HC Bo Ryan
Go FIND the links!!!
Next.
Howling!
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@jaybate-1.0 said:
You two crack me up!
Appearance of Entertainment Values in Seeding–reported comments by UCinn HC Mick Cronin and SIU HC Barry Hinson.
Appearance of Recruiting Asymmetry-reported comments of Louisville HC Rick Pitino
Appearance of Recruiting Asymmetry and Whistle Asymmetry in Tourney–Reported comments of UW HC Bo Ryan
Go FIND the links!!!
Next.
Howling!
Because they said it, it must be fact - proof positive - incontrovertible. Of course, they offered just about as much evidence as you do. Howling indeed, 'Bate!
I don’t have to find the links because I’m aware of what they said and the context (except for Hinson - clearly one of the deans of the profession at a nationally relevant basketball powerhouse).
Cronin complains about tournament pairings/seedings being driven by ratings. Well, it is true that before a change in bracketing principles a couple of years ago there were typically a handful of one-line seed adjustments to avoid conference foes playing one another before the Sweet 16. Those bracketing principles were revised and I don’t believe there have been any such seed line adjustments the past couple of years (but, I will acknowledge that I don’t know that for a fact).
Ryan bitched about the refereeing immediately after the title game loss to Duke - specifically in reference to that game. While there were bad calls on both sides in that game, it was 2 key Duke players - Okafor and Winslow - that had to sit most of the first half because of foul trouble. In the same post-game interview, Ryan also said Wisconsin didn’t do “rent-a-player” - he was roundly criticized at the time for sore-loser comments. I don’t recall him saying anything else about “recruiting asymmetry and whistle asymmetry” in any other context, but perhaps you have read dozens of such statements by him and will provide all of those links for the assembled masses.
As to Pitino, he’s your character witness about recruiting - really??? It’s just rich that the coach who oversaw the Cardinal Escort Service would complain about “recruiting asymmetry”. He did go on a rant once about the influence of shoe companies - I also agree that it is unfortunate - but it was pointed out to him that Louisville has always had players with different AAU/shoeco ties. And, he was subsequently quoted as saying that if you do your homework, shoe companies don’t matter.
Howling, indeed, 'Bate…
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@DCHawker Thank you for still having the patience to explain. Informs the rest of us, anyway.
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Golly my friends I didn’t realize this thread would get heated like it has. - Maybe that’s not the right choice of words maybe say I didn’t think it would get this controversial, - Everyone has their opinions, me, myself I enjoy reading others opinions, ya I know I get a little/ - well ok, ok a lot thin skin over sensitive some times, I let my love for Ku possibly overshadow logic - -I hate when people talk smack on KU and that’s really not good, need to keep an open mind - they do have down falls just like any OTHER School.
I’m sorry maybe shouldn’t have even posted this thread like someone else said maybe it’s time for us to move on to something new lol, for me personally like I’ve said in other threads I post hey your entitled to your opinion just like I am mine - -BUT bottom line we all are ALL Crimson and Blue right? - -Jumpin - -Gee - -Hossa - -Fats you my boys, anyways guys just keep on, - -keepin on were AL GOOD - -ROCK CAHLK ALL DAY LONG BABY
have a great day guys & gals - -ROCK CHALK
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Howling!
You are so comical!!!
You are so OBVIOUS.
Let’s keep this up forever!!!
I love auto foot shooters!
Did you hear about the recent research that indicates that humans are hard wired not to change their minds even in the face of hard evidence?
Were you a study subject by any chance?
OMG! OMG!
I’m laughing so hard I’m crying!
@DCHawker, you are my fav!
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@jaybate-1.0 Did you take writing in college and have to write a research paper?
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Get up off your knees. I like you.
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@jaybate-1.0 Ok so you didnt. I didnt think so because if you did your teacher would have told you how to properly construct an argument in your paper and not to use fallacies or just keep saying “I’m right and you’re wrong”.
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Ok, stay on your knees. I still like you.
You get that’s a joke, right?
Board Life is getting amusing, when u r dispensing advice on argument methodology and construction without being asked.
But a board rats gotta do what a board rats gotta do, right?
Let’s do it more.
Now I will even prompt you out of collegial respect.
Post over a thousand word essay about argument construction right now to build my trust in your expertise. Don’t mention me once. Just focus on persuading me with your expertise in argument construction and standardized approaches. Not one word of negativity. No negative examples. All positive how to. . No copying and pasting. At the end feel free to post the awards you’ve won for your advancement of the techniques of argument construction and methodology.
Ready. Set. Go.
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“I’m right and you’re wrong”.–@HawkChamp
I could be wrong, but I don’t recall having ever said that seriously, only possibly when I was joking around and playfully mirroring the stridency of some, and I Strongly doubt I would have said it again and again; that would trespass on my posting doctrine, so…
You might try to re-search your cloud drive and see if you are being victimized by some loss of packets, or a bad sector on you hard drive, unless…you were willfully misrepresenting me?
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Wow. Is this thread still going? Or did it start over?
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@cragarhawk nope still going lol.- - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Welcome to the high colonic of disinformation.
It’s soooooooo, um, disinformitive!!!
Viva disinfo!
Leave it to our site to stay on the bleeding edge of posting!!!
Yeeeeeeee hawwwwww!!
Lots of pre March Carney displacement and dissociation venting!
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@BigBad said:
Self’s regular season titles at all conferences he has coached in proves what my point is, that he maximizes the talent he has. Now if he could somehow land recruiting classes similar to Duke and UK…
Way to bring it!!! Sorry I missed your cogent assessment while addressing the silly battalion!
After 13 straight titles, and a ring the one time he had comparable material, and being arguably the most imitated coach of his generation, really, only the insouciant, or disingenuous, can come to the conclusion that the REAL explanation is Self doesn’t know how to coach in the tournament.
I always imagine them texting each other after they post Self can’t coach the Carney well, and writing something like: “Can you believe the morons keep taking us remotely seriously when we post Self can’t coach the Carney? I mean how gullible and self loathing can they be. Thirteen straight titles and a ring without a long or medium stack and without an OAD or 5-star center or point guard?? God they are stupid. Of course we’re full of shit! Are they pitiful or what?”
I kind of feel like the Deep State has been laughing at all of us loyal Americans the same way, since 9/11 and the great wealth heist since WTC VII fell in its own foot prints without being hit by anything.
But as Gandhi said, “the truth is the truth even if only one person believes it” and “the British will leave India.”
Rock Chalk!!!
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@jaybate-1.0 I’m good with it all. Just trying to lighten the mood…
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Me too. This is a great time to be a Jayhawk fan.
Disinformation is water off a ducks back.
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As demonstrated over and over it requires much more effort to stay positve than be negative. Personally I try to stay as positive as possible as negativity is contagious and generally not very constructive. All doom and gloom all the time is lazy and counter productive if you want positive outcomes.
Not directed at anyone in specific, just sayin’
