Answered Questions After IU
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Unreported injuries + heavy reliance on OAD early = what we saw
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@jaybate-1.0 I’d like to see Bragg in a point-forward position due to his vision and passing ability, but his handles won’t allow it. I’d love to kill small teams with size. Svi and Jackson are as tall as 2/3 the post players out there.
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There are many killer app strategies and tactics waiting for players with the right skill sets.
Bragg might get there next year, but agree he is not there now.
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Coach Self has been open about injuries, he has indicated that Devonte is having issues with cramping, Coleby is not fully recovered, just to name a couple. I don’t understand where the talk that he is hiding injuries comes from, it certainly questions Coach Self honesty.
I posted this on another thread but seem more applicable here.
At this point KU is a work in progress. All the pieces are there but they are not fully operational yet. Positioning for rebounds and rebounding in general needs work. No question it is hard to stop a team that is in the zone from the 3, like Indiana was, but there has to be a contingency plan anyway.
The guards are fine but Devonte does not seem to be 100% and the cramping issue apparently has not been resolved. This team will go as far as Mason’s legs take it.
The referring sucked and, from my biased perception, it looked like the critical bad calls went against KU. I cannot recall when is the last time 4 starters fouled out for KU. I suspect we will be seeing more Lightfoot in the future; he was in a very short time but was solid and could give meaningful rest time to the players we need on the court at crunch time.
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@JayHawkFanToo Coach Self hasnt always been forthcoming about player injuries. Its reasonable to assume that there may be some info that we arent getting in regards to player health.
But, I agree with you on the calls, the refereeing. There were two very bad calls that absolutely affected the outcome. 1. the trey that was a shot clock violation. 2. the out of bounds guy getting that rebound.
But, but, KU got out rebounded by 11 or 12. Its not like we are a small team. Bragg, Lucas, Udoka, all very big guys, should be perfectly capable of boxing out and grabbing boards!! Its maddening! I cant even imagine what its like for Coach.
KUs lack of ability to rebound defensively absolutely shook the game up too.
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The problem that I saw with the 4 guard offense is that Self just ran the same offense through it. What exactly is that supposed to do? So you look to get your best players on the floor and run the same structured offense that only works with the right lineup. We plugged guards in all game and saw the results of that.
I know its game 1 but if Self is going to Change, you actually have to Change the offense your running to get the results you want from it.
It was game 1, again, I have to remind myself of this. So much time to make things work. Devonte had a bad shooting game and didn’t impact the game at all. Same with Jackson and we were more then 1 pathetic officiating call (missed shot clock violation & in OT player was out of bounds and scored on resulting possession) from winning or a made FT (Mason). Things will get better but we might be 0-2 before we start seeing it
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I agree. As I mentioned in my post rebounding is a big issue and it has nothing to do with size, which KU has. It has to do with not boxing out and getting in position to rebound. If you looked under the KU basket after a IU miss, it was like Grand Central Station with 3 or 4 IU players that had no business being there and should have been boxed out. I am sure Coach Self will be working on that.
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Vick and Jackson. Assuming Svi and Bragg have shown us what they can do, it’s all about the development of our other guys. With Jackson, he didn’t contribute much either in driving to the basket or producing steals. I’m left wondering what his value is and whether I’m going to have to eat my words about him affecting the game more than Wiggins. Vick needs to produce steals, blocks and shutdown defense. Period. If neither of these things happen, we will have to play at our absolute peak this year to go anywhere in March.
People said we played “bad”. We played about as “bad” as Indiana. They simply look more talented to me, and there is rumor that this year has more incoming talent than last. So either Indiana is a top 5 squad, or we have to lower our expectations.
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@JayHawkFanToo exactly. I don’t know what is so complicated about blocking out. We can’t do much when a team is hitting threes with a hand right in their face, but rebounding is completely under the defense’s control.
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@betterfireE to me, it doesn’t look like certain guys are maximizing their potential. Jackson is settling for shots and I personally think, contrary to what Jaybate thinks, that his one on one defense is not the best, Carlton is not putting in enough mental effort to rebound, and Devonte has been fooling around ever since the exhibitions started. I know Devonte has been dealing with cramps, but he needs to tighten things up and stop having crazy drives. Frank and Svi have played well. Landon has played better than what others are giving him credit for, though his rebounding numbers could be higher.
In regards to Indiana, things always look better when shots go in. They made 15 threes and shot 50%, with several of those being contested and a hand in their face. They are a good shooting team, but they won’t have many games where they shoot that well.
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Talk of possibly under- and un- reported injuries comes from:
–DG grabbing an unreported hamstring, in addition to whatever cramping may have been reported;
–saying Lucas has just a “sore foot” despite wearing a boot off the floor and some kind of apparatus in the last game that makes his shoe bulge while he favors that side and underperforms for 3 straight games including two D-II teams;
–Bragg getting few rebounds in three games and taking few jump shots and getting few dunks or blocks suggesting an unreported injury is keeping him from getting up;
–the best recruit in the country going 3-11 and only occasionally being able to get up; and
–Coleby going from a few minutes vs. D-II team’s to no minutes vs a big IU team we got in foul trouble against and were facing with a gimpy Lucas and so could have used at least the same few minutes Coleby gave previously.
I didn’t watch Vick, so not sure on him.
Regardless, when Tyler starts playing in a close game one wonders about injuries to other perimeter guys.
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Copy and paste.
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One of the problems starting an OAD early is he can only learn so much of the offense and defense schemes.
Self looked like he was keeping it a 10 page playbook and Josh was struggling with that!
The 4-1 looked pretty good last season when a lot of guys could make treys.
But I agree. I’m not sure how the 4-1 is supposed to work with Josh on a wing where he’s not a threat. It’s like moving Kevin Young outside.
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@Lulufulu when a player does not play well, you can’t always assume “he’s injured”. Sometimes, believe it or not, guys don’t play well.
The rebounding is frustrating - I don’t believe for a minute that the coaches have not told them how to block out, assuming they didn’t know. Personally, it’s all about “want to”.
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@HawkChamp said:
. In regards to Indiana, things always look better when shots go in. They made 15 threes and shot 50%, with several of those being contested and a hand in their face. They are a good shooting team, but they won’t have many games where they shoot that well.
I disagree…they won’t always shoot that well…but they will have quite a few games where they shoot that well…JMO
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@betterfireE You may have valid points…but it is only one game. Jackson will contribute a lot…more than Wiggins? Remains to be seen. No question…Indiana is a good team. The game could have gone either way. My sense is that they played more to their potential than we did…but who really knows. I always find it interesting…would our rhetoric be significantly different if a few things had gone our way and we ended up winning the game?
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But Josh can make shots outside, he just has to be smart about it. Releford was not a shooter but became efficient at picking his spots. Josh wasn’t aggressive in this game didn’t even attempt to drive the hoop and missed a gimme layup he could have dunked. I expected different from this one but his first impression leaves you thinking this is just another OAD that isn’t all that again. I hope this was an eye opener for him.
Self has to evolve this offense and let it shoot quick shots and force tempo. We built leads when they played fast. This doesn’t look like a grind it out squad
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Good point, the issues would have still been front and center but it would have felt really good with a win to work on those issues.
Tuesday is important for many reasons. You don’t want to be 0-2 with the type of roster we have
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@BeddieKU23 great point about that missed wide open layup. I was hoping Josh wouldn’t be another soft OAD (or trying to avoid injury, which ever one). It seems as though he is not what we thought he was - not dunking it was pretty soft.
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@HawkChamp did you see his dunk off the offensive board?
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@BeddieKU23 said:
Self has to evolve this offense and let it shoot quick shots and force tempo. We built leads when they played fast. This doesn’t look like a grind it out squad
100%. Will he do it tho…
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No I don’t expect he will but I guess I should let it play out first.
In the game Chat I pointed out tempo several times and that seemed to be key with this group. I think of North Carolina’s style of play as something this team might have to evolve into.
Again I’ve advocated for change after 1 game and I’m not sure how much of it is fueled by being disappointed with the loss. I suspect some of it comes from that. I don’t know what actual changes need to happen to make whatever point I’m driving reality. I know that besides Frank we didn’t see a very aggressive bunch out there offensively in the 2nd half and OT. Missed shots became a big issue, one that made the rebounding/officiating and missed FT’s seem more of an issue in the moment.
The big positive I keep taking away from the game is how beneficial it is to play a top level team so early. It forces Coach and the players to really think about the effort they must give to beat good teams. If Friday’s loss turns into Tuesday’s win because of that experience I’ll be thankful the schedule played out the way it did.
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that was a great play.
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Are we men, or are we Snowflakes? Are we going to come out and kick Dook’s ass, or are we going to lay around caterwauling in the fetal position, and let those pansies win? Our redemption is near: beat DOOK!
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"…when a player does not play well, you can’t always assume “he’s injured…”
I don’t recall anyone in this thread ever assuming that weak performance is “always” the result of injury. I know I never discuss injury and lack of performance in those terms. So far, you are the only one I recall to suggest it, and then you reject it; that appears a straw argument of sorts.
We are looking for likely explanations of 3 consecutive games of apparent underperformance and I have hypothesized a number of likely drivers, including, but not limited to, under- and un-reported injury, converging to produce the phenomenon.
Where did you get the idea that anyone else believes injury “always” causes reduced performance?
Rock Chalk!
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Really measured, articulate and sensible take.
Recall the last two seasons especially that Self has tried to build leads with treys and transition, and defend leads “running the stuff” or Bad Balling. This seems to be what he is trying this season, too.
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Josh played the way many OADs do in their first game against good D1 competition. The lack of driving suggests possible injury, but the 3 position role has long been a tough one for some of KU’s best talent to find the sweet spot of. Previous OAD 3s have struggled with “waiting for the game to come to them.” They get too passive. Others start out trying to do too much. Still others struggle with not being the most dominant and skilled person on the floor for the first time.
I don’t have doubts about Josh being very good and making a big contribution. But it will take a month or two to find the sweet spot.
Also, just because he goes 7-11 the next game, instead of 3-11, does not mean he will have found it. Making shots comes and goes. It’s mostly his floor game that he needs to find his way on; that’s what will take a few games.
But the guy is a terrific young athlete, so barring injury, he will settle in in a few games.
He is already good enough to make it a 1-point game against a good Hoosier team.
His trey balling, or possible lack there of, is what I have been calling board rats’ attentions to from the moment he was signed. The logic distills to this:
If strong Trey ball, then open driving lanes for great athleticism to exploit.
If weak Trey ball, then closed driving lanes even Great athleticism cannot exploit.
The video of Josh the first three games will make opposing coaches scheme to give him the Trey and close the driving lanes.
If he can make the Trey, then he will make them pay and shortly those lanes will open.
If he cannot, he and we are in for one of those seasons of intermittent great physical prowess but not high scoring efficiency, unless he holds his FGAs to 7-8.
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I hope that if defenses sag off Jackson on the perimeter that Self puts him somewhere else on the floor.
Why not run him on the high post or down on the block like we did with Perry? Hard to believe we can’t find ways to exploit how a defense may play him. I think it would be a shame to force Jackson all season to sit on the perimeter and create his own offense. So many ways to use his size and athleticism that don’t involve him making a play 20 feet from the hoop.
I’m really interested in seeing how he responds from the loss as well as the team. Have to think we’ll see some better focus in area’s that were lacking.
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I want to see numerous backdoor cuts from Josh. I wanna see him in a Keith Langford/slasher type roll. Aggressive, attacking the basket, keeping the D on it’s heels the whole game. This opens up the three ball for the rest of the team, but could pack the lane. So spacing is important and getting Josh in space is paramount to his success.
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@BeddieKU23 there does need to be more scheming, and I think that aspect leaves a bit to be desired. He did get the ball in the post on one play in the Indiana game - I just wish there was more stuff like that to keep opposing defenses guessing.
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Keep in mind that last year’s team did not have a great start to the year and blew a lead late to MSU - that was an ugly game. Won the Maui tournament, but the teams out there weren’t exactly stellar. February is when they hit their stride and started playing like how we thought they would. This year’s team will improve, it is just a matter of figuring some things out and rebounding better. They’ll get there.
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I’ve got beef and hamburger helper won’t help this time.
Here we are at the beginning of another fresh KU basketball season and us die hard fans are trying to scramble to figure out the holes in this team and the possible solutions. These days I don’t get to watch the games with a my ol college crew, but we still talk in group texts. One thing that is pretty consistent is our disdain with Lucas. I noticed in your initial analysis you gave a lot of players your focus, but did not talk about perhaps the most concerning player on the team. It could be that you, like many fans have just settled on our current situation and are just willing to accept it and defend coach self because he can do no wrong. I saw later you talked about Lucas being injured (classic jaybate). So if he is “injured” why do we play him 35 minutes in the game! I know the obvious explanation of why he plays as much as he does, but that doesn’t make him any easier to watch. How many times are we going to see him get stripped as he brings the ball down? How many times is he going to be blocked this season? It is like he has to power up if he is going to score. We are going to face plenty of D1 teams that have tall players and Lucas literally cannot score over people. Unless he has a pass that leaves him wide open he doesn’t score. His obvious lack of athletism should be a major concern. Anyone see his reverse layup atempt? He looked stiffer than kids trying to do the mannequin challenge. I get that Dok is young and raw, but we gave him 7 minutes. In that time he had two rebounds and one block. Lucas had zero blocks and seven rebounds in 35.
I know KU will be fine in the long run, but it is going to be a painful watching LL for the next 5 months if nothing changes in his game or our game plan.
Just venting by the way, sometimes I got to get this stuff off my chest and I consider this site my safe space. Haha
@jaybate-1.0 tell me why I am wrong, or least help cool my kettle.
Rock Chalk all the way let’s beat Duke!
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As I recall, Coach declared sometime a week or so ago that his team would not abandon learning principles in order to run willy nilly just to win one game. (At least, he stated something along that order.) Of course, what we saw with Frank in his last few minutes on the floor, some of those principles might already have been shitcanned…or perhaps the “principles” finally got kicked into high gear.
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@jaybate-1.0 Injury update
Senior forward Landen Lucas, who battled a sore foot in Hawaii and junior guard Devonte’ Graham, who continued to have issues with cramping, both appeared to be in good shape over the weekend, Self said.
“Landen practiced some," Self said. "He was limited, but he practiced. And he was limited by design. Regardless of how he (felt), he was gonna be limited.”
As for Graham, Self said team doctors and nutritionists continued to try to find a quick fix for the cramp issues that have plagued him so far this season.
“Devonte’ said he felt good," Self said. "Whether or not it affected him or not, he said from about the 15-minute mark of the second half (vs. Indiana) he started the beginning stages of the cramping and stuff like that. I’m not sure he was totally himself over there. He struggled with that and we’ve got medical experts and people like that working with him now and hopefully there’ll be some things that can be done that’ll actually make him feel better the longer he’s doing those things.”
Self said Graham began taking steps to improve his leg cramps the day before KU played in Hawaii but added, "I’m not sure it had a total chance to take effect. I think he’ll be fine.”
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I have got to tone my basketball expectations WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY down. I literally tossed and turned all night long after the stupid game the other night. Over a frickin basketball game…
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Nice venting! We all need to let it out after an opening game loss, regardless of opponent.
We know what Lucas is, we’ll see if he can get healthy enough to improve on the things we know he’s limited on. The Bringing the ball down has plagued him his entire career. I think he will prove to be better then he was Friday, Bryant is an NBA player and Lucas won’t play against many that are better.
Serious question did Lucas look better because of Perry Ellis? Without the attention Ellis commanded will Lucas’s game suffer? I do think Lucas is hobbled, still playing, because the injury hasn’t progressed to the point where he needs to sit or rest but its there. Lucas is not 100%.
I would continue to temper expectations of Udoka. Another missed dunk attempt (starting to look like that is a problem) and good thing we cleaned up his miss. Honestly would you want Udoka in the game with that FT form, he looks like a 30-40% FT shooter. Bigs will just foul him and dare him to make a FT. He offers some intangibles but there was one play he didn’t use his body enough running his man up the paint and let the big recover for a turnover. He’s just as raw as Diallo, if not more. Hopefully as the months pass on, his comfort level increases. I hope our guards figure out how to maximize his current talent level (like throwing a good lob pass) or staying in front of their man so he’s not forced into an obvious foul situation.
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@jaybate-1.0 said:
Talk of possibly under- and un- reported injuries comes from:
–DG grabbing an unreported hamstring, in addition to whatever cramping may have been reported;
Unreported hamstring? You are jumping to conclusions based on no evidence. What I saw is consistent with cramping that Coach Self has reported and apparently is still bothering him. Coach Self has indicated that Graham will play against Duke.
–saying Lucas has just a “sore foot” despite wearing a boot off the floor and some kind of apparatus in the last game that makes his shoe bulge while he favors that side and underperforms for 3 straight games including two D-II teams;
Have you considered that not having Perry Ellis and playing with a very green Bragg has contributed to his sub par performances? Does he have a sore foot? Yes, Coach Self has indicated that much and this is why he is wearing the boot to help him recover faster and prevent further injury. If you watch the team photos, there are 2 other players also wearing boots. If he had a serious injury he would not be playing the minute he did, no way. The main problem is KU players are not boxing opposing players out and you have Lucas fighting against 3 or 4 other players for rebounds; again, not having Perry allowed IU to concentrate on Lucas inside…do we miss Perry yet? This was typical…
–Bragg getting few rebounds in three games and taking few jump shots and getting few dunks or blocks suggesting an unreported injury is keeping him from getting up;
Bragg is on a “funk” as Coach Self indicated and has been widely reported and his lack of performance is not due to injury but just not being in the right place at the right time. If you recall, players such as Alexander and Diallo and a lot of the newer players have had the same issue…remember TRob in his freshman year?. Coach Self’s system is not simple and Bragg has not played enough to be comfortable. I saw no health issues…unless yo call not quite understanding the system a health issue.
–the best recruit in the country going 3-11 and only occasionally being able to get up; and
The best recruit is a green freshman still learning the system and playing his first game against an elite team. I did not see any sign of injury whatsoever.
–Coleby going from a few minutes vs. D-II team’s to no minutes vs a big IU team we got in foul trouble against and were facing with a gimpy Lucas and so could have used at least the same few minutes Coleby gave previously.
Self has indicated several times that Coleby is not at full strength, so he obviously has disclosed his condition.
I didn’t watch Vick, so not sure on him.
Vick looked as fit as he can be…
Regardless, when Tyler starts playing in a close game one wonders about injuries to other perimeter guys.
Four starters had fouled lout at that time and he had to play who he had available to try to match up as well as he could with the other team. Is this the lineup you want at the end of games? NO, Who would you have played instead of Tyler Self?.
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"Have you considered that not having Perry Ellis and playing with a very green Bragg has contributed to his sub par performances? "
Yes, and because that does not explain his poor rebounding numbers I marked it irrelevant, same as you should.
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@jaybate-1.0 thats one thing to consider because of the double teams perry would often see
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It is not at all irrelevant. Last year Perry got the double team treatment and Lucas had more room to maneuver and rebound. This year Lucas is being doubled teamed because Bragg is nowhere in sight to help and thus his number are lower. It is really that simple but if you prefer to think it is because a secret injury that Coach Self has failed to disclose, then by all means you can have it.
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I never thought Bragg would or could replace Ellis. Totally different skill sets. Perry could put the ball on the floor and post. Not many bigs can do that. Ideally we have Josh Jackson do some of that, with Bragg available for layups and 10 footers.
The biggest difference between squads was that last year, we really tightened up our defense. But still, we did not produce a lot of steals, and I wonder how successful a defense can be without creating turnovers. We don’t seem to have the shooting ability that we did last year, so creating turnovers is even more important.
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@JayHawkFanToo said:
Bragg is on a “funk” as Coach Self indicated and has been widely reported and his lack of performance is not due to injury but just not being in the right place at the right time
Self has misinformed in the past, when doing so was for team benefit, so the above just begs the question. It doesn’t answer it at all. Is he misinforming about the “funk”?
Remember TRob?
Yes, he makes a poor analogy. TRob was more inept as a freshman than Bragg, and he was not asked to start or play big minutes his sophomore year, but rather be a third big man enforcer for the two stores: Marcos and Kieff. Bragg was at one time expected to be a starter at 4. But something happened to Bragg. Self calls it a funk, but counter intuitively Self appears to have committed to a 4-guard line up. Hmmm. A funk is kind of hard to define. Why would a funk make elevating for jump shots and rebounds particularly difficult? Hmmm.
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Actually it is quite irrelevant. Don’t mean to argue. Just find your argument unpersuasive.
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My take…
Bragg is HORRIBLE at boxing out right now. Several times I watched him just turn and look at the ball with no regard for getting his ass into someone. Everyone was hoping for a huge jump out of him. Last year when he had “good” games he scored off open jumpers and junk rebounds and layups.
Mason, Devonte, Jackson, Svi - will all be fine
Lucas - is what he is and looked better last year being next to Ellis. Bragg will not demand that much attention so Lucas WILL struggle.
Our offensive sets or I should say the lack of was concerning. It looked like pick up ball at times.
Nobody on offense deserves major attention from help defense so guys HAVE to win one on one battles which most aside from Frank cant do. This is why the offensive sets are so important.
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A funk is Bragg trying to learn to use his newly acquired physique while learning the system and trying to live up to the expectations. A couple of solid games and he will be gold. Absolutely nothing physically wrong with him…more of a head problem, in my opinion, of course…
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@jaybate-1.0 said:
Actually it is quite irrelevant. Don’t mean to argue. Just find your argument unpersuasive.
…as I do yours, so let’s agree to disagree and see what happens in the next few weeks.
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Like Agent Mulder, I want to believe…
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Yes I definitely disagree and am happy to let time and games resolve the difference
