RockkChalkk last edited by
No its not fools gold, its real gold. I think Self is starting to see it. I’m so glad he didn’t try to resort to BAD BALL tonight. Embrace the three pointer, and push the pace on the floor. Keep playing GOLD BALL and we will win many more games this year than we would otherwise. And much easier wins too for that matter. We shot 50% from three tonight! Thats awesome. Just need to loosen up the rotation a little bit more, get Bragg and Mickelson more involved, Svi and even Vick as well.
ps, nice to see WUG WAYNE back tonight. Hope he is here to stay.
Most key to the win was what KU did to the opponent: a team with several 40%+ 3shooters.
Beautiful defense. Make the other guy’s game UGLY and we did that awesomely in the 2nd half.
Cannot win a track meet if you keep trading buckets–the lesson for all is when we went from 4-6pts down, to up by 8+ pts. Stop the other guy. Force them into low% shot att.
Fraschilla quoted Self late in the game: “Since we didn’t have time to learn Vandy’s set plays, we would play them on the basic principles we work on every day.”
Maybe a little Rope-a-Dope in there too. We absorbed a lot of body blows in the first half, but clenched enough to keep it close while we made their bigs work.
Second half we opened up tempo and wore them down.
Once they went zone, we had them beat.
Haven’t gotten to say that about the Jayhawks for several years.
Really sweet win, Wayne is looking really good, love his aggressiveness, without him in the 1st half for sure and where would we of been? Like SVI also, like that he is taking the ball to the hole too, not just shooting the 3, makes me wonder, with Brannen’s episode and Svi playing better wonder what that’s gonna do for Greene’s playing time? One thing for sure I think we all just have to come to grips with and fully realize, which I think we all, already know is, that Perry just DOES NOT do well against length , really struggles, but I think Vandy is if not the tallest will be one of a very few with that size. Other good points to take away from tonight is, if we can pull out the win with our leading scorer & leading rebounder only getting 5 has to be positive sign, & I think another think that helped us tonight?- - Maturity- - -Experience, the Jr & SR play might be a sweet season. ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
Lulufulu last edited by
@jayballer54 I know! Because its all to clear to me that right now, Svi is the better, more well rounded, more GROUNDED player. Kid messes up one play, doesnt faze him, comes back next play and makes it count. BG cant do that.
jaybate 1.0 last edited by
Seriously, Perry is the little engine that could.
He just kept saying I think I can, I think I can, and now he can.
He is turning into an accomplished D1 player who is a pleasure to watch.
We are so fortunate.
And the spin moves have been relegated to the past!
When I was a boy I played as a boy.
When I became a man I put the toys away and used the tools of a man.
If he can do it all season he deserves to go down as one of the all timers.
He could be set for a Simien senior season.
Go, Perry, go!!!
Crimsonorblue22 last edited by
Absolutely, We have seen formula of success with this team. Its no fluke, Its no Fools Gold. Its for real and I admire Self for keeping the 3 as an integral part of the Offense.
jaybate 1.0 last edited by jaybate 1.0
We only shot 16 treys.
That’s a good number for 10 minutes of GOOD BALL–the first 5 each half–and 30 minutes of BAD BALL–the last 15 of each half.
This was a clinic in sequencing them.
Together it was gold ball alright!!!
HEM I can t wait to hear your comments, Traylor played more minutes than Perry.
nuleafjhawk last edited by
@ralster “Since we didn’t have time to learn Vandy’s set plays, we would play them on the basic principles we work on every day.”
I’m not a basketball guru like some of you folks here, just a huge (literally, after today…) but that’s the philosophy I’ve always clung to and don’t understand why everyone doesn’t. Play YOUR game. Concentrate on YOUR team, know who does what well. I wouldn’t spend much time learning the other teams set plays EVER.
Maybe that’s why I’m not a D1 coach who’s won 82% of his games, but it makes sense to me.
@nuleafjhawk John Wooden had two offensive plays he ran at UCLA. He didn’t care what defenses were being played against his teams. He knew that if his players ran the offense like they were taught and coaches it would work.
There used to be a story perhaps folk lore that he offered his play sheet to an opposing coach. “Here are our plays if you think this will help. But I don’t think you can stop it anyway.”
It goes to the saying Don’t practice til you get it right. Practice until you don’t get it wrong anymore.
On the defensive end off the ball it’s nice to know tendencies of your opponent or even what they do on inbounds. But if you play D like you are taught and keep to the principles and all 5 guys are doing it together then your D will be really really good even if it doesn’t know it’s opponent.
1- The boys played excellent defense last nite, and they did not overly foul. This will bode really well for KU with the tighter rules in place (we are going to assume the refs will be consistent throughout the season:) 2- Still not entirely sure why hunter does not get more time at this stage. He hustles big time - i honstly think self feels that lucas is the physically strongest of the three amigos - as meester Bate has identified we do have a three or four headed hydra that can hustle play d, rebound and have low shotmaking (hunter and Bragg) 3- was it just me, or there some REAL team chemistry out there ? Cheik jumping off bench to help Bragg out of the stands, and selden grabbing him and telling to sit down lest the NCAA vacate the win - maybe my favorite moment. 4- as has been noted, not pulling svi for hucking errant treys is a great sign… We shall see. Let svi and brannen play through misses.
@Hawk8086 @JRyman - Yes, yes … it is puzzling, is it not? The standard unproductive performance. I just don’t see the allure here. And please don’t say defense. There is not a rim he’s been known to protect. Look at the Vandy drive at 12:40 of the first half … kind of just stood there and let it happen.
I just can’t even begin to figure this out. 28 minutes, 3 points, 4 rebounds, 2 turnovers, no steals.
So he created .071 possessions per minute played. Compare to .333 for Bragg, .192 for Ellis, .214 for Lucas, and even .25 for Mick (in his 4 minutes of play).
The formula I’m using is rebounds, plus steals, minus turnovers, divided by minutes played. A rough representation of the net possessions created by a player.
Against UCLA, again, Traylor was the low man on the totem pole: Traylor .150, Bragg .400, Ellis .222, Lucas .307, and Mick .200.
Try Chaminade – poor opponent. But Traylor still was on low extreme low end: Traylor .287, Bragg .416, Ellis .727, Lucas .588, and Mick .083 (Mick had zero rebounds in 11 minutes, one steal, which “net” was still better than Traylor’s effort vs. Vanderbilt; and against a poor opponent, Bragg, Ellis and Lucas far out performed Traylor).
I’d really like to add in offensive fouls to this calculation. I’ll have to find that stat separated from total fouls, just don’t have time this morning.
What is even more disturbing, his rebounds per minute played in Maui was worse than his horrible ratio last season – .182 last season, .177 in Maui.
We can’t look at the three games alone, though. Season stats are season stats and he did rebound the ball well in the first two games. Season ratio .247. Well see if it trends towards his career rate of .213 (or worse), or if it can stay at or near .247.
But we won.
@jaybate-1.0 that is not what I’m referring too, AGAIN last night time after time he tried to get a shot of at the rim and got it sent back at him, Not saying he isn’t a very good player, I’m glad we have him BUT he does not do well against height & length 5 pts pretty well tells that at least offensively, he does fine against others his size or a little bigger but against 7 footers not so much, he is capable of hitting the outside shot more but yet only attempted MAYBE 2, or if lucky 3 tops, he is JUST NOT going to be able to get his shot off inside against superior height. I know of one time inparticular where he drove the lane on Kornet and got it swatted back at him just5 isn’t happening. Not trying to be a negative Nellie, but it is what it is. This is where he has to take them outside and then drive the ball around them work them in open space
@Bosthawk I agree bud, I feel Hunter should be over Landon, BUT having said that I again will agree with you that at least last night, Coach was using Landon more for bulk. Maybe it was just me and I’m not hyped or trying to insinuate but at least last night actually Lucas didn’t do that bad got some rebounds, couple of baskets, provided height & bulk. In the long run though still say like you Mickelson needs to play in front of Lucaas in the rotation. ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
Im not sure your stats tell the whole story as usual. He played really good defense, moves his feet really well, set picks and boxed out and made some hustle plays. He is a classic role player. You know the old story about the man seeing a drunk on his hands and knees in a big parking lot at night. He ask him what he is doing, and the drunk answers “i lost my keys in the parking lot” the man asks him why is he only looking under the lamppost and the drunk answers “the light is better here” You will always find a way to make your stats tell the story you want. What im way more perplexed about is hunters minimal playing time as compared to lucas. Not sure why that is
We did win - traylor helped in that win. That is a fact.
Random question- i wonder if Perry may be among the most shot blocked jayhawk in their history - anybody know how to find a stat like that?
jaybate 1.0 last edited by
Great recollection. Thx for sharing.
One time I heard Wooden speak on that subject he said an offence knows where it is going and what the obstacles in its way will be. The defense doesn’t. Therefore, the offense should win every time, if it executes. That’s why he didn’t believe in defense first. He believed in execution of what works first…on both ends.
He also said the only way the defense can guard a correctly executed OFFENCE is with superior athletes playing team defense. So he reasoned that if you had superior athletes executing defense correctly, it didn’t matter what offense you ran, because it wouldn’t work.
Thus he focused on getting the best athletes with competitive greatness, statistical research to determine what worked best, then on execution on both ends.
@Bosthawk Can you tell me some stats that do tell the whole story on Traylor? Or that at least explain this a bit. That’s unfair, I know – you weren’t referring to stats. But I ask if there are any I’m overlooking.
And, just checking, you don’t think Bragg plays “good defense”, or “moves his feet really well” (or even better), or “set picks” too, or “hustles” as good or better? He looks darn active on defense, has the reach to get boards over other players, moves his feet extremely well, can handle the ball, hustles everywhere, and, yes, sets picks.
You can have players that do these things well and who can score competently. Has anyone see Traylor ever shoot like Bragg, or ever make that nice, quick move on the block? Right.
Traylor is the classic role player, yes. Bragg is the classic standout player. Traylor might play in Israel. Bragg will play in the NBA.
Why is it that there is this great need to want to ignore the obvious – numbers, stats, possessions? I mean, I just showed you that the other guys create more possessions each game than Traylor. Possessions = points. What good is “energy” if you can’t even create possessions? Traylor is between 17%-30% worse than Ellis, Lucas, Mickelson, and Bragg for their careers in this possession stat.
And I did not even calculate in offensive fouls, which would push this worse for Traylor (I think we can all agree there even without seeing the number).
If “Energy” is his calling card, shouldn’t he steal the ball? Traylor has turned the ball over twice as many times as he’s stolen it over his career. That is worse than Ellis (not an “energy” guy I guess). And Ellis scores. And rebounds. And hits threes.
Not to pile on, but his player efficiency rating was horrible last season, and in prior seasons. And in 2013-14, his best season, he was the worst regular player in +/- (here’s the link). And in that same year, Kansas’ performance without him on the floor was better +/- than when we had any other regular player off the floor.
All we have are vague, subjective discussion points in the face of overwhelming evidence.
If Jamari Traylor was not on this team, if Self did not have the option of playing him, are we a worse team; or are we better because other guys play?
That is the real issue, ultimately.
RockkChalkk last edited by RockkChalkk
Not to pile on too much because I actually think Traylor is a good “glue” guy for the team in the locker room, in practice, etc and don’t want to kick him too hard… he seems to be pretty likable by his teammates. However, is it just me or does anyone else out there get really worked up that we have not won an opening tip yet this year? For some reason it really gets under my skin. Especially against Chaminade where JTray had such a big height advantage on the other guy. C’mon man.
Disclaimer: I know for a fact we have lost at least 4 of them, I don’t remember what happened in game #1 though. So someone may come on here and correct me if I’m wrong.
@HighEliteMajor @Bosthawk Well, I guess we are piling on Jamari a bit, but it hard not to do so - in terms of what he contributes (or doesn’t) to the team’s success (or failures). I will stipulate that he is a great story and does hustle - and he seems to be a good teammate and very likable. But, based on statistics and the “eye test”, he shouldn’t be getting major minutes on this team, let alone starting.
I’m not sure of the basis that he contributed to the win against Vandy and “that is a fact.” He played more minutes than any “big”, including Ellis, but contributed minimally in scoring and rebounding. What about defense? Mostly matched up against Damian Jones, who ended up leading Vandy in scoring and rebounding _ 17 and 10. And, this isn’t a one off. Over the course of last season, he had one of the lowest rebounding rates on the team and one of the highest turnover rates (last night 2 really bad TOs running the weave). He can’t score against bigger players and he can stop them from scoring. I do think he has gotten a bit better at boxing and defensive positioning, but that’s from a very low base. Overall, his negative plays outweigth/outnumber his positive plays.
To be clear, I’m glad he’s a Jayhawk and deserves to get court time for putting in the effort over 4 years. But, he should be a role player off the bench at most. This team can’t maximize it’s potential if he continues to start and play almost 30 minutes a game. Self loves the guy and understandably so, but I think it blinds him to the reality on the court.
ParisHawk last edited by
Self loves the guy and understandably so, but I think it blinds him to the reality on the court.
I have a hard time buying that Self is blind to anything.
I think it’s his will, not his intelligence.
There is a factor in Self’s motivation that we are not getting (or not giving enough weight to), and that is why we don’t understand his actions.
Over the years I have noticed Self’s loyalty to 5-year players. Accept a redshirt and you’re in; refuse one and you’re likely on your way out.
One thing I would advise incoming players: if Self talks to you about a redshirt, you know you’re going to take one - either at KU or the year after you transfer.
KansasComet last edited by KansasComet
Bragg and Diallo are going to get their minutes. This team is about to become very dangerous. The hard truth is, the NBA caliber players are going to play more and deservingly so. Ellis, Selden, Mason, Graham, Bragg, Svi, Greene (who knows at this point?) and Diallo will be the players showcased by Coach Self. The only real odd man out is Vick. The young man can flat out play, Hopefully, Self can figure out a way to get Vick some minutes. Mickleson, Lucas, and eventually Traylor will be used only as needed. They will get some playing time, but mostly in blowouts. The rotation is getting ready to shrink down to 8 maybe 9. It’s that time of the year. We all know it’s coming. Coach Self has to continue recruiting, and what better way than showcasing talent while showing recruits what spots are available or whom they will be playing along side in the future. Just my thoughts.
@KansasComet I think you are describing what SHOULD happen. History would suggest that Brafgg and Diallo will not get as many minutes as we think they should. I don t think there will be room for Vick to get many minutes. I hope you are right about the frontline, though.
@HighEliteMajor This has been extremely frustrating to watch. I simply cannot understand why Traylor and Lucas are getting more PT than Bragg & Mick. Bragg will be the difference maker come March. He needs as much development as possible, every game matters.
@HighEliteMajor and asadZ
I do get what you are saying. And yes if bragg gets more minutes it will be definitely good thing.
What your posts about traylor have caused me to do is now watch each game again very closely and rewind a lot duing certain plays. I was even tempted (a LOT of work! ) is to post here a play-by-play of the vandy game making notes about what key kansas players were doing away from ball.
Some things that i saw when yesterday i re-watched the vandy game- traylor played defense quite well - a few times he didn’t recognize a switch (other players started covering his guy) quick enough and got burned by the guy he should have been covering, he did have some mistakes on d, but i would venture to say he played the best consistent defense of any kansas player. He ran out of gas near the end of the game, and got burned twice i believe, and was pulled. Perry played lackadasical d at times and did not box out his big man, and the team got burned. I saw this at least three times. Also carlton bragg switched of his man to double team on d and thus his man got open for a quick pass and bucket. He is young though.
Also traylor set some key picks during our second half run where kansas started building a lead. These dont show up in stats. The play where perry got the ball in the corner, drove past his man and jammed the ball was greatly assisted by traylor who screened of his man to allow perry an unobstructed run to the hoop. The announcers even praised traylors quick action. Another interesting play- Jamari got inside posistion on his man and graham fed him down low, Jamari made a quck move to under the hoop for a reverse layup. Vandy’s 7 footer, who was covering lucas, leaped toward jamari and got a partial block on the shot, but lucas, now not covered, took the blocked ball and jammed it home. Lucas also had some good moments and some typically bad ones and a few lapses on d.
There was a play where a vandy player drove by wayne, and should have been stopped by perry. He cut right and passed perry right near the basket. Jamari was near and kept boxing out his guy to prevent a pass to him, and at the last second tried to block the shot - too late. Cheik would have more than likely blocked that shot. We all know we need a real rim protector.
Hunter played well and seriously HUSTLED during his brief minutes. He boxed out well and rebounded. Why he is not getting more playing time i dont quite get. However he was covering a big who got the ball down low, carlton came over to double team and blanket the player, and the vandy big got past hunter to reverse layup the ball. Bad play definitely by hunter. The announcers said that should have never happened.
Both wayne frank and devonte were late at times on fighting thru screens to get to their man, and it resulted on open shots for vandy guards who hit their shots. But overall good consistent d was played, and of course wayne had a big time shooting game. Closely Re-watching games has really helped me to see what kansas players do away from the ball both on offense and defense and thus better understand players strengths and weaknesses and lapses.
@Bosthawk Great post. I’d really welcome the possession by possession post if you ever have the desire after a game this season. Watching games like you have really does give an insight into a player, and the team. There were certain instances where Traylor was really good, of course. Usually are. And for what it’s worth, there are times when he is blocking out, but there are times when he whiffs, or gets lazy – see 2:25 of second half. This is how possessions are lost. i watched Traylor religiously last season (not exclusively, but when I re-watched games, I’d rewind and find him). To be honest, his lack of effort on the boards turned my stomach.
Here’s a great example. Go to 2:25 of the second half. Watch Traylor’s attempted box out. The shot goes up from the far wing. Traylor is in the middle of the lane with a big guy to his left. Traylor watches the shot an leans on the Vandy defender. This is just absolutely horrible. Look where Traylor ends up – it’s what @drgnslayr has referred to and detailed. And see the result. The ball comes off long and the offensive player can get to the ball, and creates a new possession for Vandy. Proper technique is for Traylor, instead of going his left hip to the Vandy player’s right hip, to put his but into the right thigh of the Vandy player and get him moving to the baseline. This seals the box out. And that eliminates Vandy’s possession. The rebounding area for the Vandy player is now substantially limited.
Now, the reason I’m more hyper focused on Traylor’s lack of effort and proper technique is because his rebound rates are so low. This is why the guy drives me crazy. If he’d just use proper technique – much like Lucas – he’d be a much more valuable player. But as @drgnslayr has pointed out, it ain’t happening.
Regarding Traylor and his shot down low – he simply isn’t worth feeding most of the time. The risk/reward isn’t there. He should stay in the high spot. His ability to make those shots is much worse than our rate of shooting threes, given the point value of the shot. Like the example you pointed out. He was wiped out by his defender. Luckily, Lucas cleaned it up.
What you have reported here is, essentially, all of our bigs have lapses on defense. This is very accurate. And this is why I came here last season and was very vocal for Cliff. He’d make a big, stupid mistake. Perhaps one so big that no other post guy would make it. But the rest of his time he was pretty good, had long arms, would rebound – and the other guys (Lucas, Ellis, Traylor) would make mistakes too. It seemed that folks that really tried hard to back Self would latch on to Cliff’s mistakes without seeing Cliff’s positives and the mistakes of others.
I think you are dead on right about Mickelson. He hustles every minute he plays – he plays hard. He’s long. He offers a better total package than Traylor or Lucas. The reason why I feel confident with Mick is I watched him play in the WUGs. Sold. Nothing he has done this season has changed that opinion. I feel bad for Mickelson and how Self has essentially wasted his Kansas career. You said it right – “We all know we need a real rim protector.” Mick can offer a good option there.
By the way, in re-watching games, is there any player more impressive than Frank Mason? Easily the most impressive player to me last season.
Here’s something fun (I find it fun at least) – go to 12:00 of the second half. Set play from a basic box set. Double screen across the top at the free throw line for Graham who drives around the left key area and scores. Now, teams will scout that. What will Self do? I’d bet that later we see that same play but Ellis or Traylor bolts from the double screen (perhaps going around the near high post man, thus a side screen to create some space) to the hoop for the lob from Graham. Anyway, that’s what I’d do, but that’s how plays can evolve after teams recognize them from scouting. That sort of stuff is a pretty cool see.
Re-watching great teams, coached by great coaches, is as good of a learning experience one could have with this great game. Last season, I watched the recording of the Gonzaga/BYU game at the end of the season. Took me nearly three hours. There are games that I can look back on where I felt that my basketball IQ increased. That is the most recent one. Incredible from an offensive perspective, contrasting approaches, just so much great scheming and offensive diversity in a game with a low number of three pointers. I also watched Duke a number of times last season, and their use of Okafer and the three point line was truly impressive. It was perhaps the best balance a team could have, inside and out. It’s why I picked them to win the title before the tourney (my only correct pick in quite a while).
Great stuff. Keep it coming.
DoubleDD Banned last edited by DoubleDD
I for one really hopes that Coach doesn’t shrink the lineup this year. I believe it is a crazy strength of this team to put multiple players in the game at anytime. Why not. All these kids play hard. Why not give them some minutes and give key players a chance to catch their breath. Besides if our bench players can hang while the studs are resting? Why not.
With Diallo coming into the mix KU has more big men than any program in the country. I say lets play them all. KU is deep at every position. I say lets play them all.
Why not just overwhelm teams with out talent and depth?