THE WORD IS OUT: SELF STILL AT .821 AT KANSAS
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Roy’s NCAA Tournaments
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Bill’s avg wins per season is around 29 games…as per Dickie V on every KU broadcast he does.
Bill plays a tougher schedule, largely because the Big 12 is now a double round robin, whereas before it was home and away vs the northern tier of the Big 12 and a single game against the southern tier.
But Bill’s non conference schedule is also tougher. Roy liked playing directional schools early in the year.
Can’t speak as to why we don’t blow teams out now like we did with Roy. We are no longer a transition heavy offense with an aggressive full court press defense that led to run outs, which is probably part of it. .
I have also wondered if Bill manages the game to keep it close so as to keep the pressure on, but I have nothing to support that.
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@AsadZ said:
Bate, I really enjoy your posts however I don’t understand the reasoning behind this post. Your defense of Self is getting old. While Self is still .821 at KU look at the trend for the past few seasons, going downhill. Self has been a great coach but it is clear that he is losing the edge - continued recruiting misses, early tourney exits to lower quality teams, drop in winning %, increase in home losses etc. And my biggest issue with Self is with his Rigid nature and inflexibility. For the past two years he has failed to use his talent to the advantage while forcing the players to play with his way. With Self its like My Way or the Highway.
After the WUG I was hopeful that he will make a change in his style by allowing more freedom to his players when he said something like I learned a lot from the experience however so far its the same old Self. Extremely Frustrating. This has been the biggest issue for me with Self and I wont be surprised if other fans feel likewise. And Self has to be blamed for the BG fiasco currently happening. Self is hurting KU BB.
At this point KU BB and Self will be better off if he moves on. KU BB need a fresh start.
Increase in home losses?
He lost in Allen Field House 6 times between his arrival and the end of the 2006-2007…he has lost three times at home since 2/3/07 and was undefeated at home last year…
And as a college head coach it is completely his call if he chooses to Make it his way or the highway…after all he is ultimately responsible for anything that happens under his watch…
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@SoftballDad2011 wouldn’t we agree that most recruits know selfs system including his passion for D, before they come here?
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@SoftballDad2011 Wow - that’s some great research - thank you!
The thing that sticks out to ME about those stats are that Roy’s teams had two “bad” losses; UTEP in '92 and Rhode Island in '98. “Bad” meaning upsets. All tournament losses are bad…
Self’s teams had five “bad” losses; Bucknell in’05, Bradley in '06, Northern Iowa in '10, Stanford in '14 and Wichita State (yes, f-ing WSU) in '15. A lot of us would throw in Michigan in '13, when we blew a 98 point lead (something like that), but it was a Regional Semifinal game…same could be said for Roy’s '97 loss to Arizona - Regional Semifinal game that we should have won, but “upset”, I don’t know…
I don’t know what the deal is, but anyone that says that Self doesn’t do something different in the tournament than in the regular season has got their head in the sand or is just not paying attention. I see the “play not to lose” mentality in many games, even in the regular season. How about just getting a lead and then keep doing what you’ve been doing to GET that lead?
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@SoftballDad2011 Go ahead and keeping defending him , you are most likely satisfied with the tourney early exits too. I am not. I am tired of it.
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Take your personal vendetta and go troll somewhere else.
You have been a member of this board for two years and only have about 90 posts. About a third of them have come in the past week while calling for Self’s head.
Pretty obvious you have an ax to grind.
But as an FYI if you are going to troll, it is a lot more effective if you at least put in enough time and effort to get your facts accurate, so that you don’t show your true colors when you get your panties in a bunch and have to redirect the discussion when someone calls you on your inaccuracies.
No not satisfied with the early exits. Just enough of a realist to know that from a historical perspective what we are experiencing is nothing unusual for us or for any other team in America.
astute enough to know that no other coach could have done what we have done with the cards that have been played.
And enough of a KU fan to support our coach and our team through good and bad.
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@jaybate-1.0 said:
Site Destabilization 101
So it’s destabilization that’s bothering you? Making the site a little uncomfortable for you? Getting that queasy feeling in your stomach? Sorry to rock the boat. I, for one, enjoy the differing viewpoints on this board. Maybe you should try some dramamine, lol.
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I don’t disagree. Good points.
Over the long haul, a strong defensive mind set will win a lot of games.
But on any given day you might run in to a team that is so hot from the floor or so effective at executing their game plan that you have to be able to out score them.
Ali F. and Nothrrn Iowa was a great example of that. They were a good team, but on that given day they were so hot that they could have beaten anyone.
That is the beauty and the agony of the NCAA tournament. It is a six game season with short window in which to game plan (get the players adequately schooled) for personnel and schemes you aren’t familiar with.
I too get frustrated. To me, a great team uses every available tool in their tool belt when conditions warrant.
We don’t do that well.
Coach Self is a system guy who leads with defense… In an 18 game conference season - especially in a double round robin format - that grind it out mentality works because most teams in the conference can’t win on the road and because of famialiarity every coach knows what the other coach is going to do before it happens. And if you have a bad loss or two, the law of averages have time to play out. And that favors Self’s game plan and approach.
In a one game winner take all format, a system guy will get burned by a hot team, a better executing team or unexpected game plan, because all we have to go to is our bread and butter…and on some days that isn’t going to be good enough. Especially on a day when we can’t throw the ball in an ocean, let alone make a basket (like vs MSU on Tuesday).
I thought Coach Self would become more flexible after gimmick defenses allowed us to steal wins from Purdue and NC State in our 2012 run…games that we didn’t deserve to win, but did because he caught them by surprise when he threw the triangle in.
But for whatever reason, he hasn’t. I used to think he didn’t do those things in the regular season so that there would be no tape on it for other teams to study so that we could use it in the tournament.
But now I just think Bill Self’s confidence in his system gives him the Coach Hayes syndrome that said everyone knows what we are going to do…but we are going to do it so well they can’t stop us.
The OAD movement made this less effective because those guys don’t stick around long enough to truly learn the nuances of the approach to execute it well enough.
But I also think the OAD movement has caused a change in the mindset of the typical 50-100 ranked kids.
No longer do these guys have the patience or willingness to come to a school like KU because of its history and sit on the bench for 2-3 years until it is their turn. Most of them want immediate gratification, so they go to an Alabama or a Mississippi State where the can get immediate playing time.
That creates a real dilemna for Self. OADs don’t stick around long enough and he can’t get enough talented 3-4 year players who are willing to work hard, learn their roles and earn their playing time to keep the pipeline full of system guys that can execute well enough to make unstoppable.
Plus because of the greater distribution of talent there is more parity now than ever before, which makes apparent upsets in the NCAA tournament even more likely.
Frustrating, no doubt.
But the fact we have done what we have done and remained consistently successful despite the change in the landscape of college basketball is a testament to Coach Self.
The girl friend analogy offered early about Roy Williams is a great one, because I would contend that while he was here that he was just as much of a system guy and just as stubborn as Bill is. It is just that those memories have faded and we now only remember the big picture stuff
I get frustrated. I cuss at the TV. I cuss at Bill Self too.
But at the end of the day I do think what he has done is incredible. He is never going to be satisfied with three or four years of mediocrity in an effort to load up for a deep tournament run every four or five years. He is going to get the guys he can get and he is going to run his system because he know that it will win 80% of the time and give him a chance to advance in the tournament every year.
I admire that.
I am a KU Fan who is estatic with the blue blood heritage here. And the consistent excellence that we can rely on as KU Fans.
And I see no no reason to run off someone that has helped keep us there.
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@AsadZ I share your frustrations w/ Bill as much as anyone, but it’s WAY too early to be calling for his head. Although I’ve posted that it wouldn’t bother me too much if he moved on, I’d be more happy to see him change and adapt his game.
Sacking Bill for anything less than a total collapse this year (like a losing record, or a majority player revolt, a la BG, or some type of scandal) would only serve to make the University look bad.
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Enjoy enjoy pathetic attempts at site destabilization. Often fascinating to watch inept technique. Fun to laugh at.
Rock chalk!
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@jaybate-1.0 Certainly seems to have gotten your goat, hasn’t it?
Don’t destabilize the site! Don’t destabilize the site!
Ohhhhhhhhh!
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@SoftballDad2011 Yeah right and now you start personal attacks. Its time you take off your HCBS glasses off and look in the mirror.
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“START” being the key word in your post that possesses a clear lack of understanding Of the concept of cause and effect.
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I’ll never understand this idea that because things were bad forty years ago we should be ok with falling short of our present goal (a national championship) every year, or at best, failing to even make a respectable run in the tournament. I don’t understand how winning three titles since the Great Depression should make us feel ok about seeing constant trends that lead to our team not living up to expectations. UConn’s won, what, 4 national championships in 20 years? UNC three in 20 years? Duke 5? Kentucky 3?
Do you know how many conference titles Calipari has won at UK since he arrived off the top of your head? I don’t. But I know how many Final Fours he’s been to in that time…
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@JhawkAlum They “traded” places with us the days they knocked us out of the tournament. So yes.
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@DCHawker You’ve hit it. We’ve reached a plateau (high desert) and Self needs to make a decision on approach to the game. The half in / half out usually doesn’t bode well; you’re not accepted in either camp and are left out in the cold. Our angst is seeing if he’ll turn the corner or stay in the dead-middle.
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@MoonwalkMafia Well said. When KU has another early exit after somehow winning the Big 12 some fans will remain happy & content in that Yes HCBS did it in his way
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Given the outrage expressed herein over a 1-1 start to our season, how do you think our message board would have handled the 4 14 losses seasons, 4 missed NCAA Tournaments (with two one and dones and a 1-1 in their most recent 9 appearances) and the NCAA scrutiny that UConn has endured since 2003?
Great team, great history. But also a great example of a boom or bust.
Even one of their well earned titles took an 11 game win streak because they were in the play in game of their conference tournament and likely wouldn’t have made the big dance without a top 2 finish in their conference tournament.
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I know a lot of UCONN Fans and I can tell you that they are very happy with all of the NCs. I would trade many of our Big 12 conference titles with few more FFs and NCs any day.
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@AsadZ said:
I know a lot of UCONN Fans and I can tell you that they are very happy with all of the NCs. I would trade many of our Big 12 conference titles with few more FFs and NCs any day.
How do they feel about their 0% graduation number for men’s basketball?
If they don’t care then they aren’t real fans that actually care about the players that come through their school.
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Sounds like you would make a great Husky fan!
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I will always be a KU die hard fan.
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Well at least we have that in common. Rock Chalk!
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@nuleafjhawk said:
The thing that sticks out to ME about those stats are that Roy’s teams had two “bad” losses; UTEP in '92 and Rhode Island in '98. “Bad” meaning upsets. All tournament losses are bad…
After all these years, I still consider the Arizona loss a bad loss… And I would say the Syracuse loss was a bad loss. Both opponents ended up being National Champs, but I think KU was ranked #1 and the favorite…
If we don’t count teams like that, consider Virginia (in Kemper), and Illinois. UTEP and Rhode Island were ‘bad’ losses by a similar definition.
So, Roy had at least 4 bad losses – maybe 5 or 6… Bill is somewhere in the same territory (although the first-round losses against Bucknell and Bradley are unparalleled). I think Roy had a bit better track record in the tourney, despite no Natl Champion, but Self isn’t that far off.
My takeaway: the difference between the top 32 and the final 4 is narrower than most people believe. If you want to look at the recent performance, I think it’s fair to criticize. However a FF run with this year’s senior-laden team would probably placate some critics… and another National Championship would erase a lot of angst.
I think these three factors have played a large role in our recent history: 1) we have had more one-and-dones, 2) the assistant coaching staff has had high turnover and 3) the game has evolved (based on changes in the rules and emphasis by the officials).
And lest we forget: Both are hall of fame coaches. In 25+ years of coaching combined, two hall-of-fame coaches brought one Natl Title to Lawrence. We’d like to have more, but it’s more than the rest of the big 12 combined in almost 70 years (last was Oklahoma State in 1946.)
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Screw these chumps today with 5 rings, or Wooden with 10, I want Self to win 11 rings. And to do it we have to get him long stacks like Duke uses to get K his rings. And to get long stacks for 10 more years we have to break the apparent embargo and replace it with a new hegemony.
We need our own dump trucks NOW!
Eleven rings!
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@bskeet I’ve read almost all of these posts concerning BS (and Roy) but what you said about the difference between the top 32 and the final 4 really got my attention. You’re absolutely right. Heck, on any given day, any team in all of D-1 can beat another. I don’t think that’s just a cute saying that someone came up with, I really believe it.
Robert Morris…
So, for today, you lifted my spirits. I’m not quite as ticked at BS as I was yesterday. (I will be again if we lose in the 1st or 2nd round this year) I’ll bet if we scrutinized the big name programs they would ALL have several really nasty losses that they lamented over.
OK - I’m officially over it. BRING ON CHAMINADE!
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81.2% looks great until you realize that it’s 73.23% in the last two seasons. And without Diallo we are the same team as last year.
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I think the .812 is simply to put this all in perspective.
On the other hand, UConn’s four rings, Duke’s rings, Izzo’s final fours also give perspective.
I think what we see now are just some trends that are concerning, that’s all, including recruiting patterns.
That’s really what my thread post was about. It’s not panic because of the MSU loss, it’s the patterns we have seen.
I think we should start 8-1 regardless of the lineups we trot out there, given our opposition. We might not have a real good idea what this team is about for quite some time.
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@HighEliteMajor I agree with you. Furthermore, while Self has been a great coach, one of the best in the business, I believe that he has enjoyed the benefit of playing mostly in AFH where home field advantage is a big X factor and has contributed heavily towards the 0.821.
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But a 70 something win percentage during the past two seasons is also reflective of the fact that we have played the #1 strength of schedule (both years) with young and inexperienced teams.
Yes, without Diallo, we have largely the same personnel as last year (minus Kelly and Cliff plus Vick plus Carlton)…but I would contend that we are not the same team, as everyone else is a year older and a year more experienced. Those attributes SHOULD benefit us over the course of the 2015-16 season…as they were important prevailing factors in our 2008 and 2012 runs.
Whether it pans out that way remains to be seen.
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@SoftballDad2011 I so wish we could redo the Embiid season w/him healthy!
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@HighEliteMajor We should definitely get to 8-1. A loss to any of the teams in Hawaii would be problematic.
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@KUinLA who will be the toughest for us?
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@Crimsonorblue22 I would think Indiana or Vandy if we meet up, but I don’t think any 2nd/3rd round game would be a cakewalk.
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@KUinLA I’m a little concerned about playing unlv, but I want to play them.
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Barring any unforeseen collapse KU should win this tournament without much difficulty. We have the best team here.
Personally I do not care who we play, I want KU to get better. I want to see an improved Bill Self.
I would love KU players to have a great learning and enjoyable experience as playing CBB in this type of an event is a once in a life time opportunity.
