Greene and The Fool's Gold Follies
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@DanR So I’m clear here, I’m not saying it was a fake injury at all. I’m just saying that it was a condition that progressed as far as pain, just like Self said and like Greene’s dad said (quoting his son). Further, there are clear statements that he had surgery for a condition that he’s had “for years.” I’m interested if you could show me any link to a “chat” where folks were saying he favored one side.
@jaybate-1.0 @drgnslayr My belief is not that Self intentionally caused harm to the team. My belief, and I believe it is supported by the evidence, is that Self went off on the team and its reliance on three point shooting. I think he had finally reached his breaking point. That is because he believed that three point shooting was not a reliable way to succeed. We had heard Self make snide remarks about three point shooting – remember, he referred off-handed to “fool’s gold” in a half time interview during the Utah game, related to Perry Ellis.
Of course, simply saying “fool’s gold” didn’t cause a slump. I believe it was more than that. I believe that behind the scenes, Self was very vehement and vocal with the team regarding what he’s said in the media – that you can’t rely on three point shooting, that the team has to take a different path, and that the team was going to take a different path. Thus, the change in offensive approach (bad ball).
I don’t think Self set out to throw the team into a slump, but that a slump resulted.
I know some poo-poo this. How could a coach cause a slump? Anyone that has been involved in sports knows this can happen. Whether it be a coach that tries to tinker with a hitter too much in baseball, or gets him thinking too much. The mental part of sports is crucial. And slumps, in large part, are mental. Does anyone who has played disagree with that?
I cited the “free mind” thing when it comes to shooting. I think that the evidence we see, meaning Self’s statements and the precipitous decrease in our three point attempts, provides great support for the idea that Self mandated a decrease in three point shooting reliance.
Was their a change in the “free mind” thing?
You have a team that we all pretty much agreed was, offensively, led by three point shooting. It was really its identity. It was the best shooting team Self had at Kansas, according to Self. Then you tell them that won’t do it, you mandate a decrease in three point shooting attempts, and you then change the offensive approach on a dime – and the net result is what we saw. A team-wide slump.
It is odd, the timing, right? If Self had nothing to do with causing the slump, then it just magically hit at the precise time when he made the comments, changed the offense, and (obviously) mandated lower three point attempts.
Ain’t just a coincidence. Not when you have a team-wide blackout.
Either you believe, or you don’t.
If you don’t believe, ask yourself whether a coach can inspire a slump, in any sport? Can a coach by his words and actions negatively affect a team’s performance?
Think of it this way, if a coach gives a pregame speech and fires up his team properly, can that help? If a coach demeans the team, tells them they are worthless, tells them that their opponent is superior, that he knows because he’s the coach – and he’s never seen a more worthless group of players than is sitting in front of him – can that negatively affect a team, the team dynamic, and the team’s performance?
The latter is an extreme example, but all we’re talking about is whether a coach can affect performance by word and deed.
This situation matches up too perfectly.
But of course, we’ll never really know.
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“Self was very vehement and vocal with the team regarding what he’s said in the media – that you can’t rely on three point shooting, that the team has to take a different path, and that the team was going to take a different path.”
This is right on… and what really ticked me off how Self handled this. We all know he believes you can’t rely on 3-pt shooting… and that may be true… just like you can’t rely on post scoring either. Eventually, you will face the big footer (or in the case of Kentucky… footerSSS) who will shut down your post scoring, so do you just say “f-it” and still continue to feed the post and get smoked? I guess in our case the answer is “yes.” When Kentucky smoked us we followed the same game plan all game, which did nothing but build Kentucky’s blocked shot stat line. That was embarrassing, and unnecessary.
Truth is… all teams can’t rely on just one thing. Being one-dimensional usually ends teams’ run in March. What teams have to RELY on is being OPPORTUNISTIC and taking what the defense gives. Teams that have the broadest range of threats has the best chance of advancing in March, because they overcome all the unique resistance thrown at them by teams they haven’t faced during their season.
Moving forward, it will be very very hard for us to win in March without 3-pt shooting, just as it will be every bit as hard if we don’t get any post scoring. Most teams will take a hit in the mouth for the first half and adjust their defense in the second half to try to fight back. This is where one-dimensional teams get crushed. This is often the way Kansas loses, because we don’t adjust to what the defense gives. Sometimes it is friggin’ embarrassing, especially when we get smoked by the MoValley teams, etc. It is like watching a train wreck in slow motion. At halftime, you can already sense the loss and you know it will take a friggin’ miracle to pull off the victory against a lower-seeded team.
Kind of reminds me of the frustration I used to have with the KC Chiefs and Marvelous Marv Levy. I would be driving through western Kansas, listening to the Chiefs games, and I would call 99% of their plays before the snap. Let’s see… off-tackle… off-tackle… off-tackle. There was no way for them to win in the playoffs.
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I would agree that behind the scenes Self might have should I say “frightened” this team into shooting less from the perimeter. If anything he certainly wanted them to be a more aggressive team driving to the basket. We never found that perfect balance & where guys were in their development clearly showed we should have kept going with what worked.
I believe it was him that said around tournament time that you can’t win games in the tourney without a good post game or 2 point scoring team. Again instilling his belief that jamming the ball inside without the proper guys was still the best way to win. But we’ve seen time and time again how the 3 point shot becomes the equalizer in such match-ups. Duke had the combination of guys who could chuck 3’s and have a post game.
The Free Mind thing I believe has merit. This summer we saw how well a team could play minus some of its best talent when you just let them play with minimal structure.
Do you think Self learned a lot this summer seeing just how well we played this way? Because the WUG didn’t have the importance of the regular season everything was more lax & free-willed. I would say we have 3 legit guys who can get their own shot whenever they want. How can you not let those guys run this team regardless of offensive scheme. And all 3 that I’m talking about (Mason, Selden, Ellis) are outside-inside players first.
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Before Perry got hurt last year, we found out that getting him the ball on the outside with a chance to create against a big was what had him in front for POY. If they don’t come out to guard him, he will take the unguarded three. If Diallo is here, a smorgasbord of offense will be unleashed from all of the Big 3. Mason is the Boss, but Selden and Ellis will be the scorers. Perry and Wayne are happy, very happy to let Frank stir the drink. Fool’s Gold was last year, let’s please be done with it and the conspiracy theories of who was lying and who sabotaged our team.
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@wrwlumpy you are exactly right. Our best ball was the lil change Self made w/Perry before LL landed on him.
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@wrwlumpy You said, “Before Perry got hurt last year, we found out that getting him the ball on the outside with a chance to create against a big was what had him in front for POY. If they don’t come out to guard him, he will take the unguarded three.”
Ok, but do you see what you are saying?
It’s true.
However, that’s exactly what Self said was “fool’s gold” – he said it after Ellis played outside in and torched Utah in the first half. Self said that at halftime.
@Crimsonorblue22 Your comment here is very insightful. Ellis, in fact, had his best games post TTU. Against Baylor, we won – but they played zone, so that is somewhat of a difficult one to analyze. Ellis then scored 19, 23, 24 and 28 in succession, under bad ball, before his injury. No doubt, Ellis was better.
However, we lost 2 of 4. Our team was not better. Our overall offense was not better.
So there is no doubt that Ellis was better. But our team was not better. Bad ball didn’t improve our offense.
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@HighEliteMajor said:
I’m interested if you could show me any link to a “chat” where folks were saying he favored one side.
Game chats don’t seem to be searchable, but here’s a CJ article Jesse Newell wrote earlier this summer and he refers back to Greene talking about his hip himself, back in early March.
QUOTE: “My hip’s hurting, and when I go to jump, it just feels … I don’t know. I know how I shoot,” Greene told The Capital-Journal on March 12 after an 0-for-3 long-range effort against TCU. “I know how my shot feels. I don’t feel like my legs are really getting into it. But that’s no excuse.”
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The March thing is when it kind of hit our collective consciousness (and we didn’t know surgery was in the offing when he mentioned hip paid then). But I just don’t recall anything near or even close to after his slump hit.
I believe if you say that folks saw it earlier. I just never saw it, or noticed it. I sometimes read through the kubuckets chats post game, and I sometimes do the CJ online one. Really the first I heard or considered injury was when this hip deal came out.
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@HighEliteMajor BTW, I’m not dismissing the idea that Self’s “fools gold” comment was directed at his players (Greene in particular). But, I imagine what he screams right into their faces during practice and the locker room has a lot more impact than two words he said casually in a press conference.
Keep in mind too, with Greene, Self is dealing with a hard-headed, very intelligent kid with about 1o times the self-confidence most kids have. He’s been suspended for 2.5 games so far as a Jayhawk including the OU game on March 7 during his slump. So, in addition to a physical injury serious enough to require surgery, it seems like Greene might have had some stuff going on in his head other than the fool’s gold comment.
I don’t think we can put together a true picture based on what is said publicly, but Bill Self not wanting to bomb 25 three attempts per game is not some kind of big secret.
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@DanR Exactly … I think that it was the behind the scenes stuff that impacted them. Fool’s gold was public. In private, I think it was much more pointed and likely more animated. But it was with that theme.
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@HighEliteMajor During your watching and participating in sports has it been your observation that players do more of what a coach doesn’t want than they do what he does want? Supposedly the “fools gold” comment caused Brannen Greene to shoot very poorly (which he did hitting at 17% after TTU ) and yet he shot 3 pointers at a clip of 3.09 per game after TTU and 2.7 per game up to and including that game. Bill Self told him in an animated fashion that the team was supposed to drive the ball more and yet he shot 3s at an increased rate. Has it also been your experience watching Bill Self that players who don’t do what he wants get playing time? In fact, he averaged 14 minutes per game before and after the remark.
If the team felt that the coach didn’t want 3 point attempts, why did Frank Mason make 2.8 attempts per game before the remark and 2.5 attempts after? That would be hardly what a team leader does. Wayne was the only significant 3 point shooter whose attempts declined a lot. He went from 4.`6 attempts per game when he was shooting at 43% to 2.16 attempts when he was shooting 11%. Of course that couldn’t have anything to do with a player with less than the largest self confidence realizing that he is not helping to win games shooting like that.
If Bill Self hates 3 point shots, why did he have Svi shooting 3.08 attempts per game for 32% until after the Kent State game when his playing time dropped like a stone? I suppose that if he had hit 43% he would have still imitated an assistant coach for the rest of the year.
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@HighEliteMajor I wasn’t implying that Self in practice was screaming at Greene to stop taking shots. I honestly can’t think of very many bad/quick shots Greene took all year. If anything, based on his offensive philosophy history, in practice Self was probably trying to make sure the players knew they still needed to have a successful inside presence and not “depend” on those 3 pt shots falling every time… and without Alexander, and then Perry getting hurt, it made those shots tougher.
The most obvious factor in Greene’s slump was the hip injury. Hopefully, the surgery corrected that problem. The other two known potential factors–1) Bill Self head games and 2) whatever off-court behavior caused Greene’s suspensions–we really are just guessing about.
@sfbahawk made a great point that 3pt attempts actually went UP after the comment. I didn’t realize that. Soooo… what are we arguing about again?
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These are all good thoughts about more threes and opening up the offense and not inhibiting the creative play on the offensive end of the court. Certainly we need to be a little more free and loose and run less stuff, and attack the basket earlier in the shot clock, so that in March the play makers are used to making plays, and not waiting for the “system” to create a play.
However, there are some very big misperceptions in thinking there is a single cause-effect in such a complex sport with so many variables: The main cause of shooting less well from the three as the season wears on is injuries, tired legs, better defenses, tougher competition and more pressure in the shooter.
If we had had JoJo two years ago and the Big Red Dog last year, both healthy and peaking at the end of the season and tourney time, it would have been an entirely different year at the end of the season AND the team’s three point shooting percentage would have been a few points higher. But we could run a few more players for our shooters and play a little looser, no doubt.
You guys are WAY overthinking the “fools’ gold” comment and its impact. The bigger issue on offense is our lack of spreading the floor and its corollary clogging the lane: there is no where to drive to shoot or pitch to the open three.
Here is the message: let the boys turn it loose driving to the basket and jacking the three earlier in the clock and on the first and secondary break. We now have supeior talent and we need to play GREAT team D but be a little more selfish and individualistic on O.
In this aspect, I do agree that our wonderful and talented and very smart head coach might be a little stuck in his early successful philosophy: how to win with inferior or the same talent level.
He is learning and is getting better in his offensive philosophy but IF there is a weakness in the KU BB program in the Self years, it is our lack of individual creativity and alpha dog training during the regular season on O…
I believe we will see more ‘attack the basket’ with Frank as the lead dog, and play at a much faster pace with Cheick as the fastest big man in the history of the program. We will not turn into ISU, nor should we, but we could shoot a few more threes and make a higher percentage if our bigs stay healthy and we unclog the lane.
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@sfbahawk First, go back and read this.
Second, read go back and read this.
Now, to your discussion.
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You are correct on Greene’s attempts.
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You reference Mason makes, not attempts. You do not note Mason’s attempts. His attempts went down from 2.83 to 2.54 per game. I don’t know why you’d refer to Greene and Selden’s attempts, but Mason’s makes.
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You are correct that Selden’s attempts decreased.
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You ignore the most important stat, which proves the coach’s edict. Our team’s three point attempts dropped by nearly 4 per game, and nearly 4.5 excluding the pre-bad ball game vs. Baylor. In the 24 games through Texas Tech, we shot 16.91 three pointers per game. After, it was 13 per game. The 13 per game also included 18 against Baylor just after the TTU game, but before “bad ball” was implemented (Baylor played zone that game). If we exclude Baylor, that is 12.54 per game. Then we shot 21 vs. WSU in our last game trying desperately to come back. The number of threes per game including those two games were 18, 11, 10, 13, 8, 15, 15, 8, 12, 12, 13, and 21.
This is easy.
@DanR Uh, no, on attempts. Three point attempts dropped like a rock. Again, and I keep repeating myself – why is it so hard for some to recognize that Self mandated fewer three point attempts? The evidence is indisputable. Who denies this?
@jayhawk 007 - Don’t focus on the comment. Focus on what the comment led to. The meaning of the comment. It led to a wholesale change in offensive philosophy.
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@HighEliteMajor - you said: It led to a wholesale change in offensive philosophy.
I do not think Coach Self’s philosophy on O has changed at all, during last season or at any time since he has been our head coach. I do not think he had one philosophy and we won our games first half of the year and then changed the philosophy and we lost our games after that.
Not last year or at any time during his tenure. The whole point is the conservative highly team oriented approach on O, the Hi-Lo schemes, inside-out, pass it around the perimeter, play very deliberate systematic offense has its limits, especially at tourney time.
I do think his philosophy needs to evolve on the offensive end and shooting more threes is a small part of that evolution. We need a better offensive mind or more input from the outside. The Hi-Lo needs an upgrade and we need to UNCLOG THE LANE.
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@jayhawk-007 My choice of the word “philosophy” was poor.
I should have said scheme. We clearly changed scheme, i.e., what has been termed “bad ball” (by either @drgnslayr or @jaybate-1.0).
Your talk of evolving is right on point. And I think we will see that. All the fabled hi/low needs is tweaks. Great point.
Heck, Izzo evolved. Self can too.
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Agreed. Good points.
Coach is so creative and GREAT on out of bounds plays and he should be able to introduce some new schemes to fit his players a little better on O.
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Let me supplement my main post above:
-Wayne Selden before “Fool’s Gold” and switch to “Bad Ball”: 43 for 100, 43% from three.
-Wayne Selden after “Fool’s Gold” and switch to “Bad Ball”: 3 for 26, 11.5% from three.
So, @sfbahawk – you noted that Wayne had a significant decrease in attempts after the switch to bad ball. Who in their right mind would tell a guy shooting 43% from three to shoot fewer threes?
Your comment on Selden makes no sense. In 8 of 12 games following the Fool’s Gold comment/switch to bad ball, he shot 2 or fewer three point attempts. This is pretty definitive. The guy was gunning at 43% with 4.6 attempts per game. Then he got shut down. Who does that?
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@HighEliteMajor I enjoyed those links back to past threads that I ignored. Seriously, what is your point now, and how does it matter?
Can you wrap this issue up in a nutshell and express it in a simple sentence or a question without amending it to counter someone’s stats about another player? Jaybate valiantly tried to figure it out, but now I honestly I have no idea whether we’re talking about Greene’s injury, Self being a deceitful saboteur, Selden tanking like a chunk of lead, or you just don’t like the way Self manages to get a #1 seed in the tourney 40+% of the time since he’s been here.
Help me out!
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@HighEliteMajor I appreciate that you are trying to make a point and that sometimes reading things the way you want might make this easier. My statement was “why did Frank Mason make 2.8 attempts per game”. He made 2.8 attempts per game, not as you misread it 2.8 makes per game. To make an attempt is NOT the same as to make a basket!
My reference to Selden was to make the point that of the major shooters of 3 pointers he was the only one who made sufficiently fewer attempts. If I remember correctly (and I do) many posters were calling for Wayne to be replaced by somebody, anybody in fact. It is not as if he took fewer attempts while maintaining his shooting percentage. My explanation for fewer attempts due to concern for his misses is every bit as plausible as is yours that everyone on the team was frightened by Self. You also seem to forget that although Wayne improved his 3 point shooting by 4% he did do from a not too impressive 32,8% the previous year in which he hit 42 out of 128 attempts. Could he have foretold the future about the “fools gold” comment by shooting so poorly? He improved from 2014 to 2015 and will hopefully do as much or better in that regard this year.
As you state the team attempts dropped by 4 per game. 1.8 of these fewer attempts can be attributed to Wayne. It is a bit strange that you want to exclude the attempts in the Baylor game to make the average worse. If the team felt demeaned (from your previous post) by “fools gold”, why did that not happen in the game immediately following the remark? By the way, I do not buy into the bad ball argument to anything approaching the extent that jaybate does.
You have still not explained why Brannen Greene, the best shooter on the team, took more 3 point shots after the remark than before and why did Bill Self give him as many minutes after as before. As @DanR pointed out, he is a young man with no lack of confidence. BG was the main driver for your remarks up until my post. I agree with @jayhawk 007 that way too much has been made about the comment.
I reread your past posts. I wasn’t impressed then and I am less so now.
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Can we sign a petition for the end of the dribble weave??
Has to be the most played out useless waste of time I’ve ever seen on the offensive end. In the past it helped us win games, but now everyone and their mother knows we use it.
If Self’s philosophy or scheme changes I’m crossing my fingers we don’t see that play in the arsenal this year.
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@sfbahawk Ok, your phrasing was confusing – making attempts then means an attempt. When you could have just referred to it as an attempt. Got it.
So to your point, you said: “If the team felt that the coach didn’t want 3 point attempts, why did Frank Mason make 2.8 attempts per game before the remark and 2.5 attempts after?”
Uh, the attempts went down.
The team attempts went down by nearly 25%. This is of course the important stat for anyone willing to consider the argument. But when you’re not willing to consider it, you avoid the most telling stat.
On Greene, my initial thought is that he was pressing, trying to get out of the slump. Further, that’s really about all he could do in bad ball (shoot the three), since the emphasis was on driving and he clearly can’t do that. When he tried, he was pretty bad at it. But that’s my best explanation.
And, of course, I’ve never said Self mandated no threes. He clearly mandated fewer threes, and less reliance on them.
I exclude Baylor because they played zone and we played our zone offense. I know this is hard for you to follow, but again, it is the approach, it is what is done in practice, it is the change in scheme. That would not have occurred until the game after Baylor. Again, I know this whole basketball thing is hard for you to digest, but give it a try. When a coach preps for an opponent, he game plans for that opponent. So, there was no “bad ball.” That started the game after Baylor.
You said “I reread your past posts. I wasn’t impressed then and I am less so now.”
That’s nothing more than being a jackass for no reason, and it unfortunately dictated the tone of my post. My citation to my prior posts was to offer context to my opinion now, and to provide posts that had much more information.
I will ask you, though, point me to another end of the season breakdown that was more detailed that I have offered for discussion on this site (referring to my links above)? Remember, it is offered for discussion.
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@DanR It may not matter to you, so why are you participating? If the thread is distasteful or causes you distress, why engage in the debate?
From my perspective – and I only posted this thread because of the other discussion on Greene – the fraud that Greene’s injury caused his three point shooting to fall off a cliff was relevant. It had become an accepted fact, when, in fact, the evidence indicates that it is untrue.
That had not yet been mentioned.
Again, if you or whomever here doesn’t like it – or more what it is and always is – folks don’t like it when implicates coach Self, well, tough. Bill Self isn’t perfect. Bill Self took a team that was 21-4 and drove our season – our season – into the ground. He made the decision to cut back on the three pointers on a team that was functioning quite well, to switch to a God awful offensive scheme (bad ball), and change the entire complexion of a team that was winning. That’s the issue.
This is what troubles folks. Bill Self. Genius. Blew it. Then, post fact, folks try to create this silly scenario that he had to do it. That Bill Self, genius, foresaw that massive three point shooting slump; and because that innate foresight, he cut the threes in advance of that slump and put in an offense that really wasn’t much of an offense – the perpetual weave, as @BeddieKU23 noted.
Again, do we simply forget that our coach had our team wildly unprepared? That we had no real offense? That he chose that path mid season? All after having them exquisitely prepared and 21-4? Who changes that?
We know why Self changed what we were doing. It was because it didn’t fit his little version of what successful and proper offense should be. Meanwhile, we watch coaches and teams that did adapt and change – shooting threes at the rate we shot pre bad ball (Michigan St.) – find their way to a Final Four.
The fact is, Self just made a mistake. A very human mistake. He miscalculated. That’s all I"ve ever said. I take the position that Self is human. I take the position that Self is not a genius with an all knowing crystal ball. This was just a big miscalculation on his part. And the fraud that Greene’s hip was causing him to immediately miss everything he shot further masked that reality. You know, great coaches can make mistakes. They can make big ones.
So what, in the final analysis, is more important to discuss than that?
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My hope is Diallo clears and advances his offense quickly. If he does that, great chance we have the horses to run effective offense, both outside/in and in/outside.
Then I hope we find a balance of hitting a solid % from trey, while also hitting a high % from the low post and mid range.
I hope through this success that Self sees how important BOTH areas are on the floor and no longer tries to artificially slow the flow of one or the other, and the opposing defense partially dictates that because we become a team of OPPORTUNISTS.
If I was to look at one area of ISU ball that I’m envious of, it is their ability to become OPPORTUNISTIC and succeed at what defenses give.
I wish we could contract The Mayor for a day just to teach attitude… NBA attitude.
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@HighEliteMajor On Greene’s slump, I’m not convinced that it was in no way injury-related.
I was wondering, is it possible to know when in the shot clock we took our 3 point attempts before and after the Self comment?
Imagine Self saying in the locker room: “3 pointers as the first option is fool’s gold. Try to go inside first, and when that doesn’t work then it’s OK to shoot”.
So shooting becomes thoughtful and not instinctive, and shots have to be taken in a hurry. Frank’s attempts go up because he has the ball in his hands at the end of long possessions.
Did anyone get that impression last year?
Maybe Self was trying to have his cake and eat it too, and would up with pie - in his face…
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@ParisHawk Great, great point – “So shooting becomes thoughtful and not instinctive, and shots have to be taken in a hurry.”
I don’t have access to that info on when in the shot clock they were taken. This goes directly to the “free minds” concept. Shooters are best with free minds. When that is clouded, their shooting can be affected because they are thinking about it. Marginalizing three pointers meant removing them as the first option, or second option. Moving them to a less important position. That’s what bad ball did.
We still shot threes. Just not as many. Self didn’t say “don’t ever shoot threes.” But rather, most likely, let’s do this first, then this second, and maybe this third. In our 21-4 stretch, we shot a lot of early threes. There were times they were raining down. Self accepted it then, though it was not his preference.
Great point.
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I have modest offensive projections for Diallo. I think anything close to the 7-10 ppg. area is an upgrade over last year. I expect he’ll be a decent FT shooter (he has good touch) & his % at the rim should be high because he’s athletic & will take almost all his shots in close range.
I expect he’ll block a lot of shots & be a good rebounder. Somewhere in the 7bs & 2 blocks pg area. He’ll likely foul a lot early until the game slows down defensively, at that point I expect he’ll be a dominant defender as he has been his whole career.
Some stats that won’t show up that I think are critical in assessing Diallo will be: Shots altered, 50/50 balls & the pace he might force our guys to play having a gazelle like big on the floor. Self has already alluded to the pace factor that he brings to this team. I expect he’ll alter a lot of shots like Withey did, & I expect he will win his fair share of 50/50 balls. Maybe I’m being too zealous in some projections but I just find it hard to believe this kid isn’t the stud big we all think he is.
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@HighEliteMajor You are totally correct. English for some people can be confusing and I guess that you fall into that category. Prior to the second TTU game Frank made 68 attempts at a 3 point shot (follow this closely) in 24 games for an average of 2.833 attempts per game. After that game he shot 30 3 pointers in 11 games for an average of 2.72 attempts per game. If frank had shot at the same rate after TTU as he did before he would have taken 2.833 times 11 shots for a whopping total of 31.16 3 pointers attempted.That is slightly more than 1 shot over 11 games. Do you think that the number makes your case stronger? Really?
As I pointed out Wayne made 1.8 of the teams fewer attempts per game. Your reason for his doing that is no more plausible than is mine. Bill Self may indeed have mandated fewer 3 pointers per game. We will never know unless someone writes a book or does an interview about the subject. His mandating, however, has never been your chief concern. You have based most, if not all, of your points on the subject of the “fools gold” remark at the press conference. This supposedly demeaned the team’s accomplishments thus far in the season and lowered their morale to the point where it affected their shooting. Why the sudden change of tactics? Is the job of arm chair psychologist becoming too difficult.
As for my being a jackass, I humbly apologize. I truly did not understand your drive to maintain exclusivity here for that label. What is very easy to follow is that you believe that no one (and this includes Bill Self) knows as much about basketball as do you.
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Okay… I’m jumping into the jackass pool!
I have no doubts about earning that title for myself, especially since it has been reinforced several times in my life by people I respect labeling me as a mule.We can all use statistics to support our point of view. Usually, the numbers can be massaged to support opposing views. So I’m not going to use them to make my point here.
From my experiences of playing for several decades, I will only state my own opinion on the “fools gold” comment.
I can only see it as negatively impacting the players that take 3s. I know it would negatively impact my production of 3s and I’m not over-sensitive on anything. I am King Jackass! I know it would make me think too much while playing in real time. This game is a game requiring players to play by instincts, not over-thinking. I am certain my 3-pt % would drop like a lead balloon if my coach announced to the world that my 3-pt shot was “fools gold.” And I am only putting it in the context of the basketball world I played in… a heck of a lot smaller world than KU basketball!
I’ve suddenly renewed my fan vigor for MLB play (thank you, Royals!). I notice how managers stick up for their guys, even when their guys are clearly wrong… ESPECIALLY when their guys are clearly wrong! If a player gets thrown out of a game, the manager is not far behind. The key to all of this is that players need to feel like their coaches GOT THEIR BACKS!
To me, just my perspective, it felt like Self threw his trey shooters under the bus. I don’t know how to see it in any other way. I think that was one of the few times where he didn’t filter his comments like he usually does. I bet he would filter that comment out now if he could go backwards. He could have been a lot smarter on how he impacts his players to play differently then to denigrate part of their game… and treys are an important part of the game!
That is just my 2 cents. There may be a stat out there that runs counter to my comment. If so, so be it. I’m just stating what I feel about this.
Calling out “fool’s gold” on an action by a player or players infers that those players are fools. It infers that their actions are driven by the shiny gold prize they perceive it to offer. And, or course, the “fools” part attaches possession via use of a denigrating descriptor.
I’m glad no coach I ever played for called me a “fool” (just a Jackass!
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@drgnslayr You, my friend, have played the game. You’ve been coached. And you understand that a coach, by word and deed, can impact his players.
What entertains me is the same people that will give credit to Self for his coaching, won’t recognize that his approach could backfire sometimes.
I cited Self’s EJ blowup after the OSU loss at home in 2013. Crickets. Folks that oppose my theory here gloss over that. I have not heard anyone dispute what I said at the time – that Self’s uncharacteristic trashing of EJ led directly to a team being mentally not ready to play against TCU, and thus and inexplicable loss. If one admits that Self’s actions and words helped lead to that loss, then my theory here has undeniable legs.
Of course it has legs. Anyone – and I mean anyone – who has played or coached this game knows that a coach can impact positively and negatively. As I pointed out to @jaybate-1.0, he has a long standing position Self amps his team, or lets them come out flat. Same thing.
Could my theory be wrong? Sure. But to me, the only other explanation is a horrific and perhaps unprecedented coincidence. I’ve never seen a team’s shooting tank like that. But then again, I’ve never seen a coach do what Self did with 7 regular season games left. The reason I discount the coincidence is how vehement Self was about NOT relying on threes. The fact that the three was point of his upset. Then the new scheme. And the stark change in our three point fortunes. Dots connected. 100% for sure? Of course not. Confident? Sure.
But, of course, some simply want to deny that it’s even possible – enter @sfbahawk.
@sfbahawk Again, and I know that this is continuing to be difficult, but the team’s three point attempts dropped nearly 25%. That’s evidence. I don’t think anyone, perhaps other than you, believes that Self did not mandate scaling back the three pointers. Just one person’s performance is not sufficient evidence. It is just a piece of the puzzle. The entire puzzle is the entire team.
By the way, Mason’s attempts went down from 2.83 to 2.54. There were 12 games. But whatever.
The fact that Wayne’s attempts went down 1.8 per game is notable, and nice. A portion of the whole. He was shooting 43% before, and crap after, right? But absolutely no connection.
It is pretty funny that you mention the tired line that I think I know more about basketball than Bill Self. It always interesting how analysis, critique, and challenging a thought process degrades to that with some on this site (and in the past, on the other site). It’s a simple minded response, of which I’m happy to expect from you. When I suggest another theory that might challenge you, feel free to accuse me of what you’d like. Others – one in particular – has flown that non-substantive banner for quite a while.
It demonstrates just a touch of ignorance when you can’t even consider the hypothesis to be true. When you shut it down without even a hint of possibility. And it’s interesting that no one really challenges the psychological impact a coach can have on his team – see the TCU debacle. But no way. Devaluing the very character of the team, changing an offense approach midseason, mandating fewer shots from three thus getting in their heads, could not lead to a slump. Nope. Just doesn’t work that way.
Tell me this. When a hitter in baseball is hot, why don’t players talk about the streak? Is it because the don’t want to jink it? Or is that really getting the hitter thinking about his success, which might impact his future performance?
That analogy might be over your head. I don’t know.
It is amazing to me that this is just outright dismissed.
The theory is that Bill Self made a tactical mistake that simply evidences that he is not perfect, and that mistake is analyzed largely in hindsight. And that is interpreted as suggesting that one (me) thinks he knows more about basketball than Self.
I can’t help you there. It makes you feel better to think that, I assume.
I will conclude this topic … you may have the last word if you choose.
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I know (for sure) that I could not do as good a job as Self does at running this team. I would take his 82% winning percentage and would be lucky to win 50% of the time. Self is a great coach and I’m glad we have him!
But Self is like the rest of mankind, and he makes mistakes now and then. I think he just put his foot in his mouth on the “fools gold.” If he doesn’t feel like he did and he liked the results of focusing on low post scoring after that, then there is a great chance he will use the “fools gold” statement again this year, right after we have a game where we hoist up a truckload of 3s.
Anyone want to place a bet on that one? I’m willing to bet he doesn’t mention the term “fools gold” again (unless he tries to reverse the meaning). And I will accept that as his acknowledgment of putting his foot in his mouth.
Self may be living down his “fools gold” statement for the rest of his career. How will we ever land another top trey shooter when competing recruiters will show their interpretation of Self’s “fools gold” and how Kansas doesn’t emphasize treys. How do we defeat that blunder negatively impacting recruiting as we move forward?
I think Self should come out and address his comment. Clearly state that Kansas will use any and all weapons to win a game. Defend the trey! Let people everywhere know that “fools gold” was just a term he blurted out to fit a precise situation and it has nothing to do with how he sets his game strategy. blah blah blah…
Like I said above… it deserves repeating… How are we going to recruit the next superstar trey shooter? How?
