'Clones or Clowns?

  • It’s already starting to look like another classless year of basketball for the Cyclones:


  • I know that this posting is playful ribbing, but I want to voice support for what Fred Hoiberg is doing in Ames and feel like he conducts himself and coaches his team with class. This certainly is not as bad as EJ’s ball punch, or Tyshawn’s point planking, or the Morrii’s airsoft shooting, or countless other boneheaded mistakes by our guys. This was a spontaneous response by a kid after probably getting heckled all game. I think his apology was well constructed, and shows signs of appropriate handling by the team and the player.

    That being said I hope we spank them when we see them, obviously, and maybe steal their coach when Self leaves. EDIT: Did you know Hoiberg’s contract has a 2mil buyout if he goes to another college team, but only 500k if he goes to the NBA? Hm.

  • If I were an Iowa State fan this would have made me cringe. But I think it’s kinda funny.

  • Did you know Hoiberg’s contract has a 2mil buyout if he goes to another college team, but only 500k if he goes to the NBA? Hm.

    I think he’s gone to the NBA in the next 3-4 years. I too think he’s a stand-up guy and I suspect he’s very concerned about leaving the program in as good as shape as possible. For that reason, I wouldn’t be surprised if he waited to leave until after they make a deep run or two in the NCAA tourney.

  • I agree that Hoiberg goes to the NBA in a few years. But even if he didn’t, I can’t imagine him coming here to coach. The mayor would be excommunicated from Iowa and Weatherwax would go postal!

  • Ejim’s actions come about a minute after one of his teammates is ejected for contact above the shoulders, in this case Kane removes Eric Mika’s eye. Video In my opinion Ejim flipping the bird is in the same class as EJ and the ball tap. Just really, really bad decisions made in the heat of the battle. I try to cheer for BigXII teams in the non-conference but Iowa State’s fans, the blatantly racist and homicidal ones on EJ’s twitter and Melvin, make it difficult for me to do so.

  • I’d vote clowns. ISU is a nice basketball rival because the match-up has an edge to it after last season. They have gone a full season with the belief that we got two lucky wins. Maybe so. But that sort of thing just makes their fall harder this season.

    Some media folks on twitter were quick to defend Ejim saying he was a good kid and a class act. Fraschilla responded when someone said he flipped off the crowd with “Good for him, tough place.”

    I really don’t care about any of that. We just need to win at their place.

  • @HighEliteMajor “I really don’t care about any of that. We just need to win at their place.” Nicely echoes my sentiments.

  • Hoiberg was high up in an NBA franchise when he jumped at the chance to take this job. I had the feeling he was going to be in Ames a long time.

  • Iowa State is the worst. They have decades long history of bringing in absolute bottom of the barrel individuals from Floyd, to Morgan, and now Hoiberg. Iowa State fans won’t even argue that the majority of their players have “questionable” character at best. It’s amazing to me that when Morgan left Hoiberg was seen as someone who would “clean up” the program but he has taken the opposite approach. Giving guys who have a lot of talent and significant character flaws that have been kicked off their teams a second chance. I’m not saying people don’t deserve one - but when the majority of your team is full of them then you’re giving the impression to “good kids” like Ejim that it’s okay to act like such an idiot.

    Iowa State is, and has been, for as long as I can remember a “win at all costs” program. The only difference between them and say a Florida State or USC is that they don’t actually win.

  • Meh. Whatever. He lost his composure for a few seconds and made a poor decision. He probably had some internal struggle about whether he should flip off the BYU student section because he did it quickly and timidly. And he probably regretted it immediately afterwards. Not a huge deal.

    Iowa State is a good team and I’m glad they beat Michigan and BYU, but I don’t think they compete for a Big 12 title this season. They can beat anyone at home, but they aren’t as good on the road. I could see KU losing at Hilton this season. Hilton is always sold out for KU and their fans will remember what happened last season. Tough game.

  • They can beat anyone at home, but they aren’t as good on the road.

    I agree with most of your post, but winning at altitude in the land of the caffeine-free is no joke. That’s a strong road win. Plus, they were a banked three pointer by BMac from beating us at AFH last year. I think ISU is clearly an NCAA tourney team and everyone in the Big12 better be ready to play them, even away from Hilton.

  • @HEM

    During the ISU v BYU game the other night, I cruised through the “conversations” on ESPN during the game and you are right. Some ISU fan posted a link to the video from last year’s game where the “charge” that wasn’t called a “charge” was what he had linked to along with all the ESPN analysts saying ISU got “hosed” and the rest of the guy’s comment was something like “WE WILL NEVER FORGET”.

  • So last season Iowa State lost 12 games total. 8 of those games were on the road, 3 were at a neutral site, and only 1 was at home, which was KU. Iowa State is easily a tournament team this season but I don’t see them being good enough on the road to challenge KU or Oklahoma St for a big 12 title. They nearly beat KU at AFH last season, true, but KU has a completely different team now.

  • I like what Fred is building up north… even if he invites the entire environment there to go over the edge.

    We just have to watch these guys and be ready for them. What I don’t like about all of this is how they get to carry a chip on their shoulders every time they play us and we seem neutral and have to create motivation to be ready. Seems we need a kind of punch in our face to get up for them… hopefully it can all compress into a single game where maybe they punch us in the first half and we can rally back for the win.

    ISU is building an aggressive fan base (as Bill Self experienced last year)… meaning… they are a tough venue to win in.

    I don’t like the edge we give them in motivation. With a team like Mizzou, we had a history of hatred that helped fuel both teams. With ISU there really isn’t much fuel for us to use, they seem to possess it all.

    It’s like we need to sift through material on them and find something… oh, yeah… here it is:

    Ejim commenting about using his finger wave to the BYU fan base, “I thought I saw a Jayhawk fan out there!”

  • I was wondering where y’all went! I finally started posting on kusports this summer after years of reading (and a lifetime of KU hoops), and then they went and blew it up. Of course, I was still reading the articles, but the comments haven’t been worth registering again to participate. It seems I’ve finally come to the right place.

    Here’s hoping for an ugly win tonight, chock-full of valuable lessons for the young fellas!

  • @Virgil_Caine - just wondering; did you serve on the Danville train?

  • @virgil_caine Say did you drive on the Danville train the night they drove old Dixie down? I thought your name seemed familiar. Welcome aboard!

    Oops, looks like @neuleafjhawk and I are both genuises

  • Indeed I did…it’s a time I remember oh so well!

  • You could even make the case that until Nam, many of us boomers were still just an innocent lot. JR, Levon, BobbyD, Adrian Cronauer, Mike Finnegan, Hendrix; the good old days exactly. Sounds about time to set the stage for our own Brother @dylans to chime in.

  • While were having fun with lyrics, loved Hendrix, one of my favorite covers was Cheech Marin on Purple Haze,“scuze me, while I kiss this guy”

  • God in heaven, yall went there…(hit my “IowaState” button).

    1. First, I respect Hoiberg’s playstyle and demeanor quite a bit. I would still call him a class act.

    2. But I apologize to the decent segment of the Cyclone fanbase, but a few jackasses/racists amongst them have absolutely soured any “brotherly” feelings I used to have towards that BigXII team. I hope those bastards LOSE every important game just so their fans suffer.

    3. Lets talk Elijah Johnson some more, shall we: He was being heckled something fierce all game long, beginning during the pregame warmups. Ha, guess why he went into his 5star-gear and dropped 39pts–its because he was playing mad. (As Ive said countless times, EJ didnt have a dozen 20+pt games ONLY because he couldnt ‘harness’ playing “mad”. His issue was motivational only, not physical. Quit blaming the knees, as you all saw the stories about his trainer imploring him to just go play 100% because he was NOT hurt. Back to the IowaState game: The heckling continued during the game, even when EJ was on the FT line, and HAD to hit his 2nd FT just to tie the game, so EJ holds up a finger to his mouth to “shush” someone in the endzone seats PRIOR to shooting the 2nd FT (he made it to tie the game)–> that is a whole lot of moxie, and Im glad he did it to them. Im glad it was KU that bust their bubble and hopes. Yes, we are the Goliath, and everybody hates KU, Duke, KY, UNC…so frankly, we simply have to take care of business and go get the W. Whats worse is KU’s time zone is NOT in the big ACC TVset market, so even when we beat Duke, we get to hear spin from the talking heads to assuage the ACC east coast TV market audience that outnumbers KU fans over 10 to 1. So, when it comes down to some “BigXII conference game” that nobody outside of the BigXII cares about–> we need to just take care of business. Thanks to BMac for the AFH win, thanks to EJ for the Ames win. IowaState is NOTHING but a stepping stone for us. And thank Hoiberg for at least giving us an in-conf challenge to prepare us for…(better and bigger fish).

    3a) Lets talk EJ’s nut-shot or stiff-screen on Mitch McGary (right before McGary’s flop). You saw it, I saw it. Frankly, I think Self (former Big10 coach himself) told EJ to “enforce” on McGary, and we saw something backfire because of the way the refs called it (credit McGary for helping his team with the flop). That “stuff” goes on in many games, and especially in B1G games (think MichState…). Guess what Kevin Young got told to do vs. Marcus Smart in Stillwater: stiff screen in almost the exact same spot on the floor…cost KYo a foul, but msg sent to Smart, who wasnt the same the rest of the game. I dont think EJ had the personality to be asked to do that type of dirty work… We NEVER saw EJ do anything like that in 4yrs, did we? So Im not about to pass summary judgement on him for a one-off…that may have been following orders. You people who think all this tough talk from Self is just “talk” need to consider how physicality is expressed at “the outer limit of the envelope”. Here is how Self treads the line: KU is NOT a dirty team…but very, very occasionally, there will be an “enforcement” play. Another possibility is Withey (of all people) on Enriquez of KState–after that bloody nose, the game in AFH was over for KState. Another example: Frosh twins get abused by none other than Izzo’s MichState bruizers, and the very next year, one of the Twins breaks Raymar Morgan’s nose.

    1. I apologize if this offends the finesse/Roy-loving type of KU fans, and there are legions of those amongst our ranks, but Im simply telling it like it is…food for thought. Y’all see the games, just like I do…and I bet the few plays mentioned above, everybody remembers seeing. I knew we were tough when I saw the 08 champs play in 06 and 07. Also dont forget the kidney punch the Hispanic guard for KSU did to Brady, likely because of a “stiff screen” set by Brady…Y’all can pay attn to stat lines and ppg avg, & stuff, or you can pay attention to the entire game and the various nuances and away-from-ball stuff, that frankly is an INTEGRAL part of what we do in our half-court sets.

    5)Rock ('em) Chalk (outline 'em), Jayhawks

  • Separate post to make 1 thing crystal clear: Elijah Johnson did nothing, NOTHING in Ames, Iowa to deserve the crap that those fans did/said, other than actually play like a 5star senior guard. I could CARE LESS about the charge/no charge, as the same thing happened to TRob @ Mizzou, so what? It will likely happen again somewhere, sometime…but is that a reason to throw all kinds of trash and megaphones and things directly on our players (Releford and Withey got hit in the face)? IS that a reason for Melvin Weathermax to physically go after Bill Self (WORST DISPLAY OF FAN DECORUM Ive EVER SEEN TOWARDS A COACH). Next time we call RotoRooter to clear the IowaState filth?

    And finally, whatever y’all think of EJ for the Michigan game, Im never going to throw his 4yrs under the bus because of a strange 3min vs. Michigan. That would be like throwing darts at Sherron for UNI, or at Reed+Markieff for VCU, or at Collison+Langford (FTs) for Syracuse’03. Let that crap go–> Why? Because we get to dance every year.

    Thank Bill Self, as there is nobody better in college basketball–period. And focus on this exciting new group of kids. I cant wait to see what this group of kids does to the Iowa State Cyclones…

  • Ralster… holy cow, man… you brought it all today!

    Thank you for stepping up for EJ… especially noting what I thought was his ultimate game… his dominance in Ames.

    Fascinating post… going to places we all rarely go. Yes… Self is a big boy and sometimes has to put his big boy pants on and create orders that are not ready for prime time. It’s a part of coaching you’ll never hear coaches talk about in a microphone. But there are definitely times when teams and players have to “man up” and fight back.

    I’m game to consider EJ’s tap on McGary to come from the bench. Very possible. You know, I watched that play at least 100 times and you just can’t tell how well he caught him. If McGary was wearing a cup, it was all show biz what he pulled. If he was only wearing a jock… his reaction was still questionable.

    Back in my school days I played football and basketball and I always wore a cup for each… but I needed it mostly in basketball. In football, everyone presumed you were “covered” so few punches took place. You’d be more likely to get nailed with a grab that could be far worse than a punch.

    I’ll admit it, I was taught how to whack a guy in the sack and never even get a call. You keep your hand open and swing it like your just positioning for floor space and it looks completely innocent. If the guy isn’t wearing a cup then he’ll feel it, big time. It really looks innocent if you graze his leg while going in and not just nail the target directly. If you do it right you definitely won’t get called for anything flagrant, and you are extremely unlikely to even get a foul call. It is consider an accidental contact situation. Ha… but of course, there is nothing accidental about it. I’ve been nailed several times with those, but I always had cover.

    Funny you mention the twins. Those guys really played it wrong in college. They always took the maximum punishment for everything. They would easily be the worst poker players on our team at that time. Between some of their obvious flagrant moves, all the jaw chatter, and then the obvious guilt look even before the whistle sometimes… at a few points in their Jayhawk careers I thought they were going to get smashed with some heavy penalties (beyond being tossed from a game).

  • A poker face sure comes in handy in basketball. The twins never had it.

  • Who did Joe Dooley flip off several years ago? K-State fans? It happens.

  • Danny Manning never won in Ames. It’s a tough place to play, always has been. Tough road games make our conference all the more fun. I’m glad they care…as long as we keep winning, overall.

  • A couple of things about ISU:

    1. The Weatherwax incident was unbelievable. I can’t think of anything that an opposing coach could do (and Self didn’t do anything) that would make me try to go down on the court and confront him. Shameful for anyone…especially a middle aged man.
    2. Ames will be a very tough game this year. Ejim will be 1st ream all Big 12 and Niang is very good also. They have done a nice job of filling in the spots vacated by graduation…Kane is very good. I never heard of Hogue or Long but they look pretty good also. Their backup point guard, Morris, was player of the year in the state of Michigan.

  • Great Post, EJ’s my guy. He had lots of big moments for us.

  • Tundra,

    I believe Dooley flipped off Nick Fazekas (sp) from Nevada.

  • Tundra,

    I believe Dooley flipped off Nick Fazekas (sp) from Nevada.

    He told Nick Fazekas to go F himself.

  • That’s it! Did he flip someone off also? What a bad ass.

  • Ha, great posts, guys…Yes, Dooley showed some “tough East coast attitude” after Fazekas bazooka’d us. Again, I’ll always say the attitude on the bench comes down from the top, to a large degree. (We know Danny was very reserved, non-vocal, and basically taught the bigs “moves” in the paint). I agree we DO want to maintain a respectable bench decorum, and I am always amazed how Self can switch between PerfectPersona in the press conferences, to red-face/hide-lips-from-lipreaders, to doing the balancing act differently with each kid’s egos and mpg, etc…His record and adulation speak for itself. I do think some of his “work ethic/hard work” ideals resonate with MANY of us because Self is a fellow midwesterner, like us. So when we talk east-coast bias, he+Kansas are in the same boat, and we are one force. Nothing shuts up the opponent like a W.

    I hope IowaState “never forgets”, as I dont want them to. I want them to remember when a somewhat-maligned KU guard, playing out of position, dropped 39 on 'em and we have waves of more guys (BMac in AFH, Perry Ellis in BigXII Tourney…). The SuckClones would do well to NEVER forget KU–as I want them to have enough time to put their helmets on and SEEK SHELTER prior to our arrival. Lol!

    DRGNSLAYR hit it on the head about the nut shots actually being taught…although my Self-adoration has a problem believing we (KU) teach our guys to do this…I think its more about “stiff screens” at just the right moment…meaning we might be headhunting a little bit, but its all a part of trying to get an opposing player out of his rhythm–as KYo did “perfectly” to Marcus Smart in Stillwater. And the distinction has been maintained nicely by Bill Self: we absolutely are NOT like that Cal team 3yrs ago with that Gutierrez punk. Same game where their 6’10 white power forward karate-chopped Marcus in the back, to which Marcus swung-and-missed, and got ejected (2nd guy gets caught).

  • Guiterrez did act like a punk Ralster, I remember that quite clearly. Suckclones? Checked the BP today bud? Never knew you to have a hot button like this before. Once my wife went all the way clean off on some really minor deal as such & when I asked her if I stepped on the string,I literally had to run out of the house… very fast!

  • Global, this is all in fun…as the behavior by “too many” Cyclone fans that day was just inexcusable–and they left themselves WIDE open to ridicule. Heck they are more wide-open than the paint in Hoiberg’s defense! But to be true to the sentiments, I definitely lost a lot of respect for what once was a respectable mentality in Hilton Coliseum, as recently as when Craig Brackens played for them. The en-masse chant of “F**k KU” with Hoiberg’s own 5yr old son + family in the audience was utterly ridiculous…as was our players getting pelted by some of the several dozen items thrown on them as they left the floor thru the tunnel (all that isnt just 2-3 individuals on twitter)–And we havent even discussed what those 2-3 IowaSt students actually posted to Elijah Johnson’s twitter acct, and also threatened the KU team bus with “loaded AR15”. I think any responsible gun owner would call such talk completely reprehensible…and I would support an ‘attention-getting’ terrorist-type charge under the Patriot Act language (then drop the charge after you got the kid’s attention, as point made). You dont lose your head over a sports event result. Especially if you are college educated. I’d like to think the racial stuff is/was “just a few bad apples”, right? Or am I being naive?

    I’m just glad as glad can be to see Self is walking into Hilton Coliseum “nicely re-loaded”, shall we say? Lol!!!

  • Considering all the above, unfortunately, I too shall cast my vote for 'Clowns.

  • Well it’s official…clowns.

  • Clearly Clowns. Attended many games in Ames. Worst bunch of winers in in college sports. Complain about every call.

    Glad to be on a KU board again. ROCK CHALK!!!

  • Here is my take on ISU:

    Since Fred’s arrival as coach, and since he’s made them competitive, the ISU fan base has decided they are on KU’s level of basketball.

    They want to be our rival from here on out, thinking being rivals puts us on the same level. Well… it didn’t work for Mizzou, so I wouldn’t count on it!

    I feel sure the ISU fan base is going to continue to push us to the edge in hopes to anger our fan base so the rivalry begins. I wonder who will pester CS this year in Ames?

    As soon as ISU gets in the history books somewhere close to us, then we will consider… meanwhile, they can go #*&% themselves!

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