Shooting slump?
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@DanR Tues night would be a perfect time for it to even out.
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@wissoxfan83
Concerned but not alarmed. Concerned we’re not making many and concerned we’re not running any plays to get open looks.
I know it’s a broken record, but why can’t we try some four out, one in and spread the floor?
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@VailHawk I’m not smart enough to answer that question! I’ll say this, it didn’t seem like we even had many good looks from 3 today.
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@wissoxfan83 I’m not alarmed. I was more concerned before when we were only winning game from the outside. Here is something I posted to slayer on another thread:
I feel your frustration about long ball offense, but I feel the problem is not about focusing on an inside game or outside game. We are just not a good offensive team, inside or out.
We have 3-4 good individual shooters on this team, but they cannot get looks on their own, they cannot catch and shoot good after moving in the offense, they aren’t good at making themselves available as an outlet on fastbreaks, we aren’t good at kicking the ball out drives, we aren’t good finishing drives to make a defense have to suck in just to be able to kick out, and the team can’t set a screen without fouling. They can only hit open looks. They are very deadly at open looks, but not if they have to doing anything but just stand there, get the ball, the shoot it with perfect timing and set feet. Contrast this to other good shooters that we’ve had, B-Mac, Mario, BRush, Sherron. These guys would miss if “too open”. B-Mac was deadly in the “elevator play”, but Greene would probably miss that shot 9 to of 10 times. We haven’t seen anyone knock down a shot on the “chop play” since Conner last year.
I contest the only way to get open looks is to have an inside game that has to be respected, to the point defenders sag off our perimeter guys. Selden got hot for a few games because his defenders were playing off, daring him to shoot. After a couple games they are right back on him, because they know he can’t finish even if he gets around them. And his 3% has gone back to crap.
Notice when we did hit a lot of 3s, all the scoring was perimeter and nothing down low. And notice now that the defenses are pushing our guys out, that Perry’s numbers have gone up. The opposing game plan is now to make Perry have to beat you, and force Oubre, Mason, and Wayne to drive. If we had a good 2 man game down low, then the perimeter open back up.
We just aren’t a good enough team (in many aspects) to get whatever shot we want. We have to take what they give us. I think Self wants our 3 point shooters unleashed, and right now, this late in the season, the only chance is if Perry remains a 20-30 point scorer and we win with that enough that opponents give us back our open 3’s. If Greene wants to make it rain from 3 land in the tourney, and go for 25 a game; then he better be the biggest cheerleader for Perry dropping 30/game from now through the end of the season.
This is a team game. Sometimes it’s not about doing more of your best thing, but minimizing what you’re the worst at. The best thing-shooting outside shots. The worst thing-running an offense (any offense) as a team.
Self is trying to build a better team.
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@VailHawk I think the 4 out 1 in has been put away until we really need it come tourney time. I don’t think it would be effective as a full time offensive set. It worked good a few games in stretches, but it makes us too one dementional. Yeah it spreads the floor, but for what? Guys that can’t finish at the rim. Guys that can’t dish to open players. Especially when our guys don’t know how to “be in the right spot” to receive a dish.
I’m not saying never run it, but not all the time. Teams aren’t exactly packing it in on us right now anyway. It worked good a few times. It gives of a different look during a game to confuse a defense. But no reason to give future, tourney, opposing coaches a good look at it. It looks pretty solid jumping out every now and then, but with a few hours of game film and it would look like swiss cheese.
Wait a minute, you’re the special agent on the inside, why are you asking the questions? You’re suppose to have the answers!
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@wissoxfan83 Yep, Law of averages. They’ll come out of it
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I don t think we will slip to a4. 3 at worse. Concerned? Yes. I agree with the law of averages comments, though.
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@Hawk8086 Lunardi said yesterday that we are “a lock” for a 2 seed if we don’t really screw it up. That was before our win over UT. If we beat WVU I think we hold onto the 2 no matter what.
As far as the shooting is concerned I am not alarmed exactly but I certainly wish we attempted more than 8 shots from deep. I can see a Stanford type defense on Wiggins coming against Perry in the tournament and that scares the sh*t out of me. Who is going to step up? Our post play other than Perry is questionable at best so if we are not shooting the ball (well or not just making attempts) I am not sure what Bill will do.
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The law of averages doesn’t help you in a single elimination tournament. It’s the variance that kills you.
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I see it as the “glass half empty” or “glass half full.”
I know we’ve all hammered down on Self for pulling away from the long ball… but maybe there is a reason why he is one of the most winning coaches in recent history.
Imagine we had stuck to our guns and developed our identity is a long ball shooting team?
Even though we would have built offense to facilitate our perimeter shooters with specific spacing and plays… without an inside game teams would have played us stretched out and it would have become tough for us to maintain the pace we had a month ago.
Now… with Perry coming on, and Kelly starting to penetrate… we are getting a lot of inside points. If I’m not mistaken, didn’t we have a lot more inside points than Texas?
So how do teams scout us (moving forward)?
Do they continue to come out high and leave the middle open?
If we can just run a bit more offense to free a guy like Brannen… wow…
Now imagine Brannen and maybe Wayne gets hot from outside and we have the new, amped-up Perry in the post.
Suddenly, we become a very tough out.
Self is the “Riverboat Gambler.” I’ve been worried all along that this team would never have an identity. I think that is what Self is playing to… NOT having an identity! How do you scout a team without an identity?
Maybe he is playing this team for March. We usually have a strong identity and we face a team that has had a week to prep for us.
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@drgnslayr I like it. “The team with no identity”. Let’s hope it is as successful as “the show about nothing”.
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@Lulufulu I obviously hope they do, but I’m fearing @jayhawkbychoice nailed it. Defenses have adjusted to our weapon and so now we are going to have to readjust. Someone please step up on the inside, besides Perry of course!! I don’t care if your name is Hunter, Landon, Jamari or whatever, we need you. Otherwise this season is going to end early.
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@drgnslayr said:
Suddenly, we become a very tough out.
Do you see us becoming a very tough out at this point? I don’t want to appear to be trollish or anything, but with 2 regular season matches and potentially one league tourney game we’re running short of time to develop a new style of play.
I like your enthusiasm as well!
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@wissoxfan83
You’re clearly a troll! Prolly from KSU or Minnesota!
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@wissoxfan83 I see us winning title 11, getting a 2 seed thanks to our incredible home court advantage and getting past the first weekend in the NCAAs. Anything else is really gravy.
According to Lunardi, as a 2 we will not be in UKs region, so we can always hope for lots of gravy.
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@ParisHawk Agree. I see the sweet 16 game (vs. probably a 3) as a tossup. If we can win that game, and lose a competitive Elite 8 game…we are playing to our seed.
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@Hawk8086 Still a remote chance at a 1 seed. If KU wins out that is. If we win the regular season and post season of the “toughest” conference in America it will be tough for the committee to keep us off of the top line.
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@joeloveshawks That’s not what the “experts” are saying. And frankly, with 6 losses, I don’t think we deserve a 1 seed at this point. You did say remote, and I agree with that…but I think others would have to lose while we look really impressive form here on out.
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@Hawk8086 and gonzaga went down, everyone was looking for them to fall so they could move them down. Undeserving of a 1 seed.
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@Hawk8086 I don’t disagree but we have the #2 RPI. The #1 SOS. Just saying it is a possibility. Unlikely I agree. We will all know 2 weeks from today!!
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@wissoxfan83
“Do you see us becoming a very tough out at this point?”
Not sure. But I haven’t seen us as a tough out all year.
Eventually… being a tough out relates more to players playing tough. I agree with Self on his comments after Texas… “We played tough. For the most part we carried out scouting report. We played through Perry. When you don’t make shots from the perimeter against a team like that (KU hit one of eight threes to UT’s six of 20), it’s hard to score inside. I thought our guys played very well and very tough,” Self added.
I think he has forced them to take it to the rim to toughen up everyone. And to some degree… it is working.
If we can play tough… fight hard… push the ball to the rim… and then… start working in some perimeter offense… heck yes we can become a tough out!
We did all of those things yesterday except work in some perimeter offense. When that happens… how will teams play us? How are they going to guard the trey and then stop Perry in the middle?
I think Self knows this team is really all about Perry. If he continues to play like he is playing… we will be a tough out. When we win games where we don’t shoot well from 2… and also only 1 for 8 from 3… Self smiles because he knows his guys are playing tougher. Even though this is grind ball and often ugly, this team is winning with some margin for bad play.
If we strictly live by the 3… our only margin is our shooting % from trey. We all know we won’t be great from 3 every game. Especially as teams start covering the perimeter better.
Perry playing big is H U G E ! Now… if we can just bounce back with some perimeter ball… we will be a tough out!
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@VailHawk ooh, I didn’t stay in Kansas long enough to fully grasp the KU-KSU thing, but I lived in Wisconsin a long time and calling me a MInnesotan is like calling me a miserite!
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@wissoxfan83
I still love you!
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@VailHawk You from Minnesota?
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@wissoxfan83
Nope. Born in Lincoln, NE but moved to Kansas when I was six. Family in twin cities, tho
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@wissoxfan83 Looking like we wont lose Cliff. The lid will come off the bucket for our trey gunners. Its just when. No way can you keep the lid on for all 6 guys that can gun it >40%
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Tonight will tell if the fellas pass the tough test. BS needed to work on inside game for awhile win or loose in conference. Win tonight and we are as ready as we will ever be. I wish we did not have a Big 12 Tournament as some schools get to rest for a week or so. Perry is ready and the trio on the inside are better than a month ago without Cliff. If good guards are what it takes to win the bracket war then we are better than we’ve been the last two years. What else can we do but jump on for the ride. I really don’t want this year to be over.
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@KU-Flyer I was just thinkin the same thing. There is only, what, 4 more weeks left of college ball all together. major bummer.
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@wissoxfan83 I don’t see it as a slump. It’s opposing coaches guarding the 3 more tightly. How many open looks has Brannen gotten lately? Not many. As I posted before, it’s simple scouting. Kansas looks best when they get open 3’s. When they don’t get open 3’s, they are very beatable, no matter how much damage they do down low. The last four games have borne this out. Opposing coaches are exercising their best bet to beat Kansas by concentrating on shutting down the 3 game and living with whatever damage we can do down low.
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@wissoxfan83
I’m worried but for not the same reasons as you are.
These misses to me are not a big deal. As we only shoot 10 a game on average and a lot of them are taking when the shot clock is running down or at the end of the game when KU needs to rally. Both types are well guarded shots, and not good shots.
Why I’m concerned is KU only shoots 10 threes a game on average, and then when they do it’s only necessary. Problem is when that moment comes for KU that it needs to shoot a three the opponent knows it as well.
Though I could argue and even agree to a point with some who believe that the law of averages will even out our three point shot. That doesn’t change the fact that at KU we don’t value the three until it’s to late. HCBS doesn’t run sets for the shot unless the game is on the line or it’s at the end of the half. Meaning if this team is to shoot threes it has to be in the flow of the game. So if a team decides to take away the three land, well then those threes aren’t going to come in the flow of the game. They will be well guarded.
Bottom line in my opinion if KU is to make a deep run in the tournament they’ll need to shoot the three. The HCBS high/low in all it’s greatness isn’t going to get us a final 4 this year. We just don’t have the players and experience to run it.
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@wissoxfan83 Im holding out hope for a decent run in the big dance based on what @jaybate-1.0 said. Something to the rather long winded effect of playing bad ball as a weapon.
And, also that maybe Coach Self is using that genius level understanding of the game he has to work on some plays JUST for the final part of the season. To get our 6 trey gunners better shots when we need them.
I think a 2 seed is our ceiling for this year. Now that we have an 11th straight conference champ guaranteed, I think a 2 seed is locked regardless of our performance in the big 12 tourney, especially if we clinch it out right tonight against WVU.
The NCAA’s are a different monster, clearly.
Its all about match up advantages. Its a two game tourney every week. Its win or go home. I have to say that I believe this team is tougher and more battle tested than it was last season. These guys are not afraid of playing against the Nike stacks like they were early in the season. I think @jaybate-1.0 has something in his theory he wrote about earlier. I think KU has the guts and the grime to win more than 2 games in the NCAAs this season.
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@Lulufulu Ok, so we’re going from inside out to bad ball? Whatever it takes!!
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@Lulufulu I wouldn’t put too much faith in what the poster you referenced wrote. That theory is ridiculous, with no basis in fact, concocted by a Self apologist trying to find a silver lining in a dark cloud. I think he may be Bill’s agent, lol.
Seriously though, that scenario is just not going to happen. Keep in mind, the last two games we were able to grind wins out of, were home games against the bottom feeders of our conference. We’ll face tougher teams in the tournament. Like West Virginia and Kansas State.
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I apologize for all 11 titles.
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@KUinLA I’d much rather look for a silver lining, you?
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@jaybate-1.0 stop!!
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Totally unrelated to anything basketball. How do you get your wise saying thingy to appear with all of your posts?
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@wissoxfan83 It’s his signature. From his home page.
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To me Bill Self is and always has been about balance. We have had some really good players that many hyped as possible player of the year types. However, with Self’s style that just doesn’t seem to happen. Even when it is a great big man and when we were “big man U.”
Think about it. Andrew Wiggins, the most hyped freshman since Lebron, already a star in the NBA, scoring 25 points, often, vs. better players, only scored 17 a game (still real good!). That number is huge for any Self player. Especially a freshman. But even Wiggins wasn’t given freedom to just take whatever shot he wanted. Self tried all year to get him to work within the system.
That helped turn Joel from a project to a 3rd overall pick. It won number 10. Many coaches are good at drawing up plays to get shooters open. Or isolating stars to let them score. Even Rick Barnes could get Durant the looks (though he mostly did that himself).
I, like others, am not trying to apologize for Self. He can get better. That’s why his motto is get better every day. With that motto comes the philosophy that you don’t only play to your strengths, you play to get better. Every game (even in the tournament) is a learning opportunity. A time to grow as a player and a coach (and maybe as a fan, though I doubt he cares too much about us!).
Fact is we are a better team now, than we were 2 months ago. We have more options, more sets, more toughness, and a better idea of how to win even when we don’t shoot the ball well.
I like a lot of what Hoiberg does. Sometimes I even find myself thinking something Cal says isn’t complete BS. Huggins and Pitino and Izzo all have aspects of their coaching styles that I can appreciate. They are even better than Self at some things. But none of them have had the winning percentage, the consistency, and the class of our own Bill Self.
Why not think positive on a night where a 1 pt victory means we don’t have to share number 11? Why not think positive about a team that will go into the tournament as a high seed? Why not think positive about a coach who has Two final fours, a championship, and a whole slew of elite 8s? Who cares if it is ugly?!
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@Crimsonorblue22 No, I’d rather try to figure out what’s going wrong and try to correct the problem.
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@jaybate-1.0 I got nothing against 11 titles–that’s great! I’m just more about NCAA tournament performance. I’d gladly trade any one of those 11 titles for just one more win in that year’s tournament. Imagine if that were the case. We’d have two more Final Fours and another National Championship. THEN I’d say Bill was an awesome coach!
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@KUinLA Really?! Trade the streak for one more tournament win? A championship? Ok. A Final Four? Maybe. One win!? No way!
Isn’t trying to figure out what is going wrong (inside game) and correcting the problem (see Perry Ellis) exactly what Self has been doing?
Bill Self isn’t already a great coach?! Then who is?
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@benshawks08 I’ll stand by it. It’s just a theoretical ‘what if’ anyway. The streak isn’t that important to me. Great for the kids and the school, but like I said, I’m about tournament performance.
And yeah, Bill’s a great coach. But not Awesome.
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Lots of great college coaches have never won a NC…
Lefty Driesell, Eddie Sutton, Mark Few, Lou Henson, Ralph Miller, Brad Stevens…
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Hopefully we go to final 4, alwYs root for that!! I’m enjoying every minute of this!
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I rest my case.
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@KUinLA Hows that silver lining look now? 11 straight and this one is outright ours!! No sharing when everyone, literally everyone said KU wouldnt win it at all. Forget the shooting slump. They WILL come out of it. It will happen. With a pure shooter like Greene especially, there is no way he will keep missing shots for long.
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@KUinLA No other coach in the modern history of College Basketball has done what Coach Self has done except for Legendary Coach Wooden. Coach Self will absolutely get at least one more national title before he is done coaching. Just wait for it.
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@Lulufulu Yesterday was a great win and a great coaching job by Bill. Congrats to team and coach. I hope Bill uses the next couple of ‘throw away’ games to emphasize getting shots for his 3pt shooters to get them back on track, because as we saw yesterday, it’s not just a switch you can turn on like a light. It’s obvious that Brannen’s confidence has taken a hit.
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@Lulufulu I may be way off, but I think Bill Self wants to win another ncaa title at KU at a minimum. I think that’s how a winner like him thinks. Even if he is tempted to try the NBA I think he wants a repeat ncaa title under his belt.
And I will go a step further to say only the NBA could tempt him to leave KU. Now if things go sour here ( and I doubt that) maybe he goes to okie state.
