• Do not run the action KU ran at the end of the KSU game, where your shooters run away from the basket along the sideline and curl inward. That is easy to guard. Sideline means defender knows you have to turn inward. The best routes always make defenders guard both right and left turns. Also going away from the basket is a hard shot to make. Never run action to create a hard shot!

  • @jaybate-1.0

    Agreed. Shouldn’t we just run our stuff?

  • @VailHawk Our stuff, apparently, ain’t workin’. Here’s Brannen Greene’s quote after Monday –

    “When we play other teams, they get into their stuff. They run their stuff. We’re not applying enough pressure on defense, to the ball-handler. On offense they deny us. It messes up all our stuff. We can’t get into a rhythm,” Greene said. “We’ve got to finish at the basket. We’ve got to get our spacing right. Guys are on top of each other,” he said.

    To @jaybate-1.0’s point, we run no competent “action” to get three point looks other than a few well designed plays that occur very few, and very far between.

  • @HighEliteMajor

    "We’ve got to get our spacing right. Guys are on top of each other,” he said. "

    There is definitely a lot of that going on. Also under the boards. Our guys amass as one collective octopus under the basket lately.

    If guys are clumping up together… look at the psychology… they are hiding under the tent of “team play.” That means they aren’t taking personal responsibility for their own actions. Hiding en masse.

    It reminds me of my one big gripe about Kansas… Kansas drivers like to drive all bunched up, too.

  • More evidence that this team isn’t executing well against disciplined, scout-prepped foes. Sure we can look good against undisciplined foes, or even non-conf foes, because they haven’t seen “Bill’s stuff” as much as the BigXII coaching staffs have. They know “our stuff” well. But this KU team isn’t as good as other KU teams in running our stuff. And a lot of the separation in execution between average-execution, and exemplary execution is timing.

    You see how far away from perfection we are on some of the set plays when guys are spaced wrong, 2 in the same spot, or being easy to guard, or HarrisonTwin-lazy. Many, many reasons to have offensive breakdowns from within the team…then add a well-prepped, well-coached foe, and literally anything can happen on the scoreboard. And it has.

  • @HighEliteMajor

    Totally agree. I’m sure you detected my sarcasm font. “Our stuff” is code for hi-lo inside out…

  • @HighEliteMajor

    Did you watch the 4 x 3 SD clip of the last mizzery game on other thread? Those guys looked totally different running “our stuff.” EJ was great at the 2 especially on defense! He preemptively fought over a screen not allowing a clean look 3 just beautiful. Only one of those guys has stuck in the league and he (TRob) isn’t exactly all NBA but man they played as a “team.” Almost makes you long for more 3-4 year guys! How’s that for a softball?

  • I hate that every time we are in a situation where we need a late game 3 and Fran is calling our game he says “They like to run a chop play in this situation”. This is as we all know the play we ran for Mario to hit “the shot” against Memphis. Are we literally still running this play? In the last 7 years we have not come up with a new way to get a must have 3?

  • @drgnslayr

    "We’ve got to get our spacing right. Guys are on top of each other,” he said. "

    Unfortunately that comment would indicate the problem is one of execution rather than planning; there is no way a coach would plan for that…although a couple of posters will probably disagree. I love our 3 point shooters but most are spot up shooters that need to be set in place and open to score. The announcer at the last game indicated that Devonte is the only player that can create his own shot, Selden can also get himself open to receive the pass and a lot of Mason’s hi9h percentage 3s come when the defense is not quite set and he is still open. Greene is arguably the best pure 3-point shooter ever at KU, but he cannot create his own shot if his life depended on it.; he needs to learn to take advantage of screens and lose the defender. Obviously this issue will not be resolved this year but in the off season, Greene needs to work on improving his defense (which he has done to some extent, his defensive rebounding has been a nice surprise) and create his own shot by creating space to operate.

    I watch a fair amount of NBA games and, say what you will about the NBA, but those guys sure can shoot. It is amazing how the better 3 points shooters are able to create their own shot in a blink of an eye and score from 2 feet farther away than in college. Harden will break both of your ankles and then take an open 3, Curry is tightly guarded one moment and in a blink of the eye he is taking an open 3…oh well, wishful thinking.

  • @joeloveshawks The chop play is special because it has many plays inside of it depending how they defend.

    08 NC- Mario cuts toward Sherron and with the hand-off gets a solid look.

    2012 against MU at home- Taylor fakes for the hand-off then does a backdoor cut for the slam.

    2013 against ISU at home- Bmac floats back behind the pick. Accidentally banks it in but got a look nonetheless.

    2013 against ISU in Aimes- EJ cuts toward Tharpe for the hand-off. They hedge hard so EJ starts dribbling to the top of the key to scrape off another pick and gets a good look.

    The chop play is great as a late game play because there are so many variations within it. If the wing reads the pick correctly, it is a pick-your-poison kind of play. Many teams run it now and it rarely looks the same twice.

  • @JhawkAlum Those are good examples. You and I both know that it works sometimes and sometimes it does not. Such as the KSU game this week. I just wish there were a couple more plays to choose from in this scenario.

  • @joeloveshawks and @JhawkAlum

    There is a crucial basketball quote by one of the greatest basketball minds the game has ever known–Red Auerbach. It goes like this:

    “Basketball is like war in that offensive weapons are developed first, and it always takes a while for the defense to catch up.”–Red

    As far as I can recall, the chop is apparently a reworking by Bill Self of the Henry Iba weave dating back to the late 1930s, according to my late father. And according to @drgnslayr the weave was earlier developed by the Harlem Globetrotters. The Trotters date back to 1929 and back to 1926 as the Chicago Globe Trotters. And as I have read more and more about the early days of the game, I suspect we would find evidence of some version of the chop, or weave play back to the turn of the century. American football and ice hockey variations and games I probably haven’t even heard of, probably preceded using versions of the chop and weave further back. American football has seen the reverse expand to the double reverse and the triple reverse, each with a flea flicker add on at different times. Who knows? Maybe @drgnslayr’s and my at least mythically venerated meso-ballers chopped and weaved down their high walled courts in Chichen Iztza half a millennia, or more ago?

    The point I want to make here is that offensive innovations become themes that recur in variations over time. But each recurrence usually has a shelf life extending until a defense is found to curb, or stop it. If defenses can only curb it, the shelf life can be long. But if the defenses discover how to stop it, the shelf life probably comes to an abrupt end.

    One curiosity I have is whether Self originated the latest version of the chop, as I recall it, or if someone else around the country resuscitated it before Self did and I missed it? Whatever, it was one of those borrowings from the past that was inspired, for it has slowly spread in use for seven years that I know of, which is a pretty long shelf life for a situational offensive play.

    Since Self began running the chop I have seen partial stops of it with switching, and just sticking with it.

    But I had not seen it stopped dead in its tracks the way KSU did by playing a 3 out zone and a 2 in man to man.

    Unless Self can come up with a way to make it work against Weber’s counter defense, its days may be numbered in this recurrence of it.

  • I continue to be amazed … a coach can’t plan for lack of execution? That statement is just flat wrong. It’s not “jmo” … it like the sky is brown. It just isn’t.

    Actually, it is exactly the opposite. Coaches regularly prepare for the inability of their players to do what they ask – the failure to execute.

    What it is, though, is yet another attempt to point to any explanation other than coach Self, to cover for his failures. That’s all it is.

    For example, in football, a coach might prepare a game plan that focuses on a trap block play inside. What might he do if his guard is unable to clear and get to the 5 hole in time for the trap block? Right, he could move the play to the 3 hole. In fact, crazy as it may sound, teams may actually prepare for the inability of the guard to get to the preferred blocking point. Right, move to plan B. In basketball, perhaps certain plays require a proper screening angle. In many situations, that can be challenging. Or certain plays require the right timing on ball rotation. Does a coach simply enter a game feeling like that is out of his control? A good one doesn’t. A coach builds in contingencies. He plans for the inability to execute.

    It’s no different than what coach Self did vs. Baylor’s zone. Self ran the same odd man front vs. odd man front as he did the first game. In the first game, although things weren’t going well, he didn’t change that up. But in the second game, he changed – he moved to an even man front.

    Clearly, Self was planning ahead of time for his team’s lack of execution. He preferred the former, but shifted to the latter when the former didn’t work.

    In fact, that is the essence of coaching. That isn’t opinion. Ask any coach.

  • @VailHawk - Good point … did we sit and bag on Self for his offense in 2012 and 2013? No. Why? Because those teams more better fit the system. The teams were able, much better than this team, to execute what Self wanted. This team can’t effective execute offensively in his system.

    This season isn’t, “oh, he needs to let shooters shoot” or relatively fringe issues like that. This season, the issue is deep, and it is systemic. It’s obvious. Everyone is discussing it. The media discusses it. Everyone.

    I do long for three and four year guys – we have some, I think. But I love this team. Our offense could be dynamic. This could be much different. It’s a shame, really.

    @drgnslayr - Do you think guys sometimes just come out with staged responses? Or just mimic what Self says to them?

    @JayHawkFanToo You mention Green needing to learn to take advantage of screens and lose the defender? What screens are you referring to? I say that a little tongue in cheek, of course. But you are right. Greene has zero ability to create his own shot. None. He needs screens. Lots of them. You’ve hit on a very important point. It’s what I’ve said most of this season … we need to scheme to get open looks. I don’t think he’ll really ever be a create his own shot guy. Selden does ok with a step back. And I think you’re right again on Mason … most of his three looks are when the D has broken down. Your point about guys not being able to get their own looks is right on target. It’s also difficult within the flow of our offense when opposing teams are guarding the perimeter hard. Some teams may not need as much help getting open looks – guys that can get their own shots. But this team needs a scheme to get those looks to capitalize on those shooters.

  • This was my statement:

    "We’ve got to get our spacing right. Guys are on top of each other,” he said.

    "Unfortunately that comment would indicate the problem is one of execution rather than planning; there is no way a coach would plan for that"

    It clearly indicates that no coach would plan for the wrong spacing or players being on top of each other. I did not indicate that coaches do not have plan “B” when the main plan is not working (the other team defense is wise to it) or it is not being properly executed; in fact, I have been saying all along that Coach Self is trying to develop the inside game as his plan “B.” Amazing how a comment can be taken out of context just for the sake of being a contrarian. My last post on the subject.

  • @JayHawkFanToo Yes, I read what you wrote, my response is all in context. My issue is that you claim that “there is no way a coach would plan for that.” That comment, while I know you prefer not being challenged on what you say, is simply baloney. Any coach knows that. You actually think that coaches can’t plan for a lack of floor spacing? Spacing is an issue in all motion offenses. Spacing is no different than any other aspect of offense. Actually, spacing is one of the more difficult items to execute on the floor and it is regularly screwed up in motion offenses.

    It is something coaches struggle with all the time. You know that, right? If you’re a coach, and you’re at the 15 minute mark in the second half, and your team is getting bunched up running it’s offense so ball rotation or screening, or whatever, is ineffective, what do you do? Accept it? More precisely, you don’t plan for that in advance? Believe me, coach Self does. If he doesn’t adjust to correct it, it’s because he chooses not to.

    For example, what coaches do to adjust to spacing issues include:

    1. Alternating set plays with standard offense, as set plays many times have “spots” that come into play,

    2. Inverting the offense side to side – many coaches run offense in a mirror, from side to side. Some motion offenses don’t look the same left to right. This can change things up a bit,

    3. Similarly, a coach can direct a different initiation point of the offense,

    4. Change a rule or two – motion offenses are based on rules. A coach can change a rule or two, mid-game to adjust, or

    5. Run a different offense for a while. For KU, that would be flipping to four out, one in for a few possessions or more.

    I know you think this is contrarian, or whatever, but this is stuff that coaches know and do.

  • @JayHawkFanToo

    Spot on, post!

    Devonte and sometimes Frank can create their own shot. Kelly can penetrate, but is just figuring it out that he can.

    Brannen and Wayne are spot up shooters. They have to be on the spot and pump it.

    Compare us to ISU. I think you have to go 8 or 9 deep on their bench to find a player that CAN’T create his own shot. All of those guys can do it.

    Is it because the Mayor knows how to teach offense? Partially. He also knows how to recruit offense.

    I don’t think Self has much of a clue in that area. Yes we landed Wigs and JoJo last year. Neither were real scorers. And now we have Cliff, who just 6 months ago was considered neck and neck with Okafor. Are you kidding me? We were all hot on Cliff because we saw his big body and heard he was a top recruit. But us fans didn’t recruit him. The guy has NO OFFENSE! NONE! I had more offense than Cliff in the 3rd grade.

    I question Self’s ability to recruit offense. It’s a hit and miss thing with him because I don’t think he gets it.

    Wigs is transforming to a real offensive player. But we recruited him because he was a God.

    How many great scorers has Kansas had in the Self era? Where are all these guys in the league with their high averages?

    He’s just not an offense-minded coach. I wish he was better balanced. He has been able to mask his weakness with the hi/lo. Recruit big guys, have Danny coach them up, and feed the post. Not really a sophisticated offense.

    But I like the idea of him and the Mayor coaching our next Olympic team. Have the Mayor run offense… Self run defense (if he can learn how to teach “hedge defense” ). The only guy at Kansas I can ever recall using hedges was Releford.

    It will be a friggin’ tragedy if Brannen leaves Kansas as only a spot up shooter. There is no room for a guy so singularly talented in the league. You have to be able to create for yourself, at least to some degree. I think he screwed up. He should have begged to sign on at ISU. Maybe the Mayor (or his assistants) could teach him how to score off the dribble. Teach him some moves. Create enough space to score and be confident. Stuff that really matters.

    Like I have been ranting lately… Kansas needs coaches that can teach. None of our guys even know a simple shot fake. The development stinks. These guys are improving a little just from getting older. I’m thinking the last guy to develop at Kansas was Withey… mostly on defense. TRob also developed. TT made vast improvements.

    Look at our current crew. I think Frank has made probably the most improvement this year. Perry brought all those moves with him. His main improvement over 3 years is in his confidence and coming out of his shell. Wayne… big question mark. Brannen is the same guy, just getting more minutes and somewhat of a green light.

    Sorry for the rant. I keep thinking of Kobe and his comment about AAU ball and I think it is valid all the way through college. I get frustrated seeing our guys go out there and get their shots blocked and never reach the FT line because they never learned a shot fake. There is no excuse for that, or the lack of other very basic skills.

    All of the money, effort, focus… jobs… entertainment for the masses… TV broadcast all over the country… and we watch guys 20 years old that are supposed to be McDs AAs and they don’t even incorporate a shot fake on occasion. In basketball heaven, that would be considered a sin!

    Rant over…

  • @HighEliteMajor

    "Do you think guys sometimes just come out with staged responses? Or just mimic what Self says to them? "

    I’m pretty sure they worry about maintaining their PT. They don’t respond like it is THEIR team. They respond like it is SELF’S team.

  • @HighEliteMajor

    Amazing. You continue to misrepresent what I said. Let me put this in simple terms:

    Greene said “We’ve got to get our spacing right. Guys are on top of each other,”

    Do you really think that coach Self plans to reduce the space where player operate and plans to have players on top of each other? I don’t and no one in his right mind would think that. This is simply what I said …Coach Self plans likely do not include players having the wrong spacing and he most definitively does not plan to have players on top of each other; when this happens, as Greene indicates, it IS NOT because Coach Self instructed them to have the wrong space and be on top of each other, it is simply because the players are not executing the plan correctly and that is the end result.

    You can spin it or interpret it any way you want but i t does not change what I wrote. I explained it once before but you chose to see it your own way and in a way that makes Coach Self look incompetent, it is not the first and likely will not be last time you do it.

    Have it your way…I could quote Rhett Buttler but why waste any more effort on a lost cause.

  • @JayHawkFanToo Well good. If you meant to refer to how Self instructs them, that is an obvious item. We know Self doesn’t tell them to have bad spacing. Just like he doesn’t tell them to miss shots.

    The issue in your phrasing is one word – “for”. If you would have said “there is no way a coach would plan that”, and left out the “for”, that would have had a completely different meaning. But when you say “plan for that”, that infers something completely different. I can “plan for a terrorist attack”, or “plan for retirement” – meaning when it happens. For the eventuality of the event.

    But if I “plan a terrorist attack”, or “plan retirement”, it means something different.

  • Banned

    It’s not possible to get open three’s with HCBS

    1. It’s not in his DNA. He’s all about the system. Period

    2. He cut his teeth on the high/low. All the tutelage He has received has been play strong defense and pound the ball inside. The three is viewed more like a hail marry, or trick play. Only used to confuse and keep the defense honest so the ball can go back inside.

    3. He doesn’t value the three. He’s called it fools Gold, and believes it should only come in the flow of the game. He doesn’t scheme for the shot unless the game is in the line. Kind of like a Hail Marry, or trick player.

    4. HCBS prefers to run the offense before a 3 point shot is hoisted, meaning by then the shot will be contested. The offense is hurried as the clock is running down, and the defense is ratcheted up as they know the offense is running out of time.

    I just don’t believe the three point shot is apart of the offense game plan. I think as fans we were bamboozled into thinking the three was apart of the game plan, as KU players were hitting them at such a high percentage. When in reality they just had the green light to shoot the three in the flow of the game if they became open. There was no scheme, rhyme, or reason for the shot.

    There is no real offense ran in the system for the three point shot. The three is nothing more than a novelty item. Only to be used in the flow of the game and at the end of games when KU is losing. So how to get an open look three??? Well if your playing in HCBS’s system the answer is get lucky.

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