ITS THE END OF THE WORLD
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Maybe I am just too grumpy, should probably wait until tomorrow to comment; however, six minutes into the second half I declared to my empty bottle of Bud Light, “I think our man Self got outcoached at halftime by one of the league’s weenies!” Either that, or we are working too hard at practices. Okie lads outhustled us all to heck in first 12 minutes of second half. (I feel like Ol’ Roy every time I print that work HECK. But I usually manage to keep my exclamations fairly clean, in tribute to the quality of this fine site.)
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@KUinLA Predictable.
Do you only show up after losses to blast Self? Has anyone EVER seen this guy (or girl, idk I guess) come in here and offer anything constructive, or contribute to a debate, or to celebrate a victory?
I haven’t, dating back to the kusports site…
Part of the enjoyment of being a KU fan is we win a heck of a lot more than we lose. Feel free to embrace the good once in awhile too.
Or not. See you after the next loss.
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@icthawkfan316 I’m guessing Ned would rather have ford for a coach. Thx!!
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@icthawkfan316 Maybe Rodney in disguise ya think? One thing for sure he gets off on Bill bashing.
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@icthawkfan316 I’m guessing you stirred the hornets nest as he now has more profile views than posts. And after reading his posts there I’m inclined to agree with you.
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Forte had the flu and we played the last 5 minutes like Germaphobes.
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@KUSTEVE Exactly. Yeah that game was a big disappointment BUT we are still in first and I dont honestly believe Coach Self will let them lay down and give the title to the next best team. On the other hand, he better rip his players asses tomorrow and make them ALL run the stairs in AFH three times over. A public comment by him about how biased the officiating was in that game would be nice too.
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This is one of those games that we can’t over-analyze. One of those road losses that happens in a long conference season. Truth is we could have blown them out regardless of the game-plan. I just thought we played really sloppy and lazy at times, which gave Okies the momentum they needed.
We’re still in the driver seat for #11. We’ll be fine.
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@icthawkfan316 - You said, “So my question is: does Self have enough in his basketball repetoire to expand the offense playing to maximize looks from the outside? It might not be a question of him wanting to, it might be a question of him feeling confident to be able to do so adequately.”
I want to focus on this important part of your post.
Unequivocally, I think yes, he could. Whether he feels confident enough, yikes, I’d hope so.
From a set plays stand point, we’ve seen Self script three point looks before. But I know your question is based on his offense.
I would say that his offense is a true inside-out, feed the post focus. But very importantly, there is the “out.” It’s taking advantage of that. How many times has the ball come from the post to a three point shooter this season? Very few.
With that, in his motion offense, all Self would have to do is install variations or additional “rules.” I know you know the game quite well. So you know, with any true motion offense there are rules that govern the movements of each player, based on certain situations and ball location. In Self’s offense, one of the apparent rules, for example is that when the ball moves to the block from the wing, the classic post feed, the high post player to the opposite side of the lane if he isn’t there already, and the perimeter player at the top of the key rotates a bit to the weak side. This sets up a possible two man game.
In a few prior posts, I have described how three points look can be gained within our offense. Here’s an easy one that Self utilizes (I think this a rule). When the ball goes to the post from the wing, if the defender turns his back on the perimeter player, the perimeter player slides to the corner for a possible three. Here’s an easy addition.
Instead of the high post player standing stagnant on the weak side, or sliding down to the block, he moves hard to the strong side and sets a screen for the post feeding perimeter player, looking for an open three look. If the defender fights over the screen, the perimeter players cuts to the hoop. If he goes under, well, that’s three. The proper angle is gained by the perimeter player moving the corner after the feed.
There are scores of possibilities within our offense to adjust a few rules, or add some options.
Back early in the season, I was even saying that we didn’t need to play four out, one in. I am still totally fine with our offense if we work within that offense to get more three point looks. Self, though, has the four out, one deal hat in his bag of tricks.
Literally, I think it’s as easy as Self prioritizing it.
Question: I didn’t sense at all that OSU shut down the three point line in the second half. We took more three pointers in the second half, didn’t we? I’ll rewatch the game, but I recall two specific instances where I was curious as to why Greene didn’t gun.
And yes, I do think Self puts in limitations many times. Shot clock, etc.Against Utah second half, after we missed some early threes in second half vs. OU … I think he told the guys where and how they need to get their shots. But that’s wasn’t my point here. I think you identified it – I don’t think he works to get our guys those looks. We worked to get the ball inside.
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I don’t think it’s the end of the world, but it makes me wonder if I reposted “How’s the season going to end?” again (it was a lively discussion this week) if there would be a noticeable trend towards an earlier exit? I’m leaning that way just to prove how fickle I am.
The word to describe todays loss to me was dumb. We made so many dumb plays down the stretch. Dumb turnovers, dumb shots, dumb FTs. I know this is dumb, but it’s what I’ve got!
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The sky isn’t falling, we are still in 1st place and we control our own destiny. Conference road wins are always tough to come by, esp. at GIA. So, a loss there isn’t that unexpected and it isn’t the end of the world. And, the Hawks are consistently better road warriors than anyone else in conference.
But the way we lost is still very disappointing. It’s one thing if the other team hits their shots and just outplays you. Then it’s hats off. But, when you make 1/3rd of your 2pt shots, commit 18 turnovers, shoot barely 50% from the FT line, don’t handle pressure (really wasn’t much of a press) and make bad decisions down the stretch, it just really disappointing.
But, as badly as we played, the game was still winnable. That’s pretty remarkable. But it’s also remarkable that the guys we were most counting on coming into the year - Ellis and Selden - simply can’t be counted on game to game.
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@globaljaybird I’m not sure who this Rodney is that gets referenced here occasionally. Not sure if he was posting towards the end of my days over there or not, but I don’t remember him from before. I went over to KUsports and found one of his posts, and no, I don’t believe it’s the same guy. KUinLA, or KULA (as he was on kusports) has been posting for years. Different avatar, different language, just don’t think it’s this Rodney character.
And look, I’m not someone who worships Self and thinks he can do no wrong. He has flaws, limitations, makes mistakes, etc. But to focus on those to the exclusion of everything that is great about him as a coach is just a witch hunt. To this guy, it’s like KU has won 83% of its games these last 11+ years in spite of Self, and not because of him.
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They took a big crap and now move on…Let’s not repeat against TT.
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@truehawk93 TT is not bad, we will have to play hard and hustle!
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@Crimsonorblue22 said:
@truehawk93 TT is not bad, we will have to play hard and hustle!
I agree we’ll have to play hard and hustle, but TT did lose 75-38 today against ISU. That’s pretty bad!
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@icthawkfan316 but they beat ISU last week at home, right?
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@Crimsonorblue22 I’d forgotten about that I guess, or thought it was TCU maybe. Point taken.
So consider how mad we are after the OSU loss today, then consider how Iowa St. fans must be kicking themselves knowing their team is potentially this much better than Tech yet gave that one away on the road.
Such is life in the Big 12 I guess.
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@icthawkfan316 difference is home and away. Just switched over to WSU and CF’s still sitting on bench, what do u think will happen to him?
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@Crimsonorblue22 I don’t know. He’ll be eligible second semester next season, as a junior, right? So he’ll have one year/semester playing behind VanVleet & Baker, then maybe his second and final season there he’ll be able to start at one of the guard positions. He could very well flourish, especially against the lousy competition he’ll face in the Valley.
Not sure what will come of his DUI charge. Probably nothing as it relates to the team. He’ll have a year to get it behind him before he’s eligible. Not like Marshall would suspend him for any games next year I wouldn’t think.
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@icthawkfan316 or will he have 3 years? I forgot. I thought he left in time so he wouldn’t lose his soph year. Not sure. Just wondered what Marshall would do w/him.
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I only want to know one thing:
What happened over half time? That was the softest basketball I’ve ever seen this team play in the first part of the second half, when OSU sort of fell in to a 11 point run.
It did really seem like they had taken a nap at halftime, or smoked some killer herb, or just decided to not come out and play.
If this was boxing, and a fighter suddenly quit like that it would be under investigation by the boxing commission as a betting conspiracy.
They did a bit better after that, but the damage was done.
I’d like to say it was the heavy pressure applied by OSU… but it wasn’t. In fact, they came out slow, too, but bounced on us after it was apparent we weren’t going to play.
I could never coach these guys. I would have called time out a few minutes into the second half and I would have taken my starting 5 and told them to go to the locker room because their day was finished. They can wait on the bus. The other guys would have been motivated and probably won the game.
Could Self had said something to them that made them all just decide to come out and protest with super soft play?
I am really lost here. Maybe someone in here can clue me in.
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I know what you mean. And I really get upset when they play so crappy in stretches.
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@icthawkfan316 This KUinLA is one of the maybe a handful of downers on buckets, maybe even less than that. I don’t mean to be facetious, but we have had very few bashers, trolls, whatever you want to refer to them as. People are mainly very polite & respectful & language is mostly a non issue kept to about a pg 13 level. Now when on the subject of misery, language may not get to a blue level, but maybe chartreuse or thereabouts
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@globaljaybird Yeah this site is great.
And again, there are definitely times when it is OK to be down on this team, certain players, coach Self, etc. I don’t ever want to come off like I expect this site to be a collection of cheerleaders just varying ways to say “good job!” I just kind of roll my eyes at people who are just haters and never have anything good to say.
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Thank you sir. I was half expecting to log on to KUBuckets and start a topic on how sad I was. Watching KU lose in grand fashion and watching UK yet win again left me somewhat sad. Yet your simple no nonsense words have renewed me.
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@icthawkfan316 Sure we all pick nits & no one likes a peckerwood that just agrees with everything. 99%of the rats here agree to disagree most all of the time. That’s what makes this such an informative discussion site. I learn new things here every time I log on.
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This reminds me of the TCU game where KU shoots great in the first half against a home team that is not playing well in the first half. The good shooting by the Hawks covers up blemishes where KU could have opened up an even larger lead because the home team was not playing that well. Then the home team plays a much stronger second half and KU struggles ugly. This time KU gets beat.
OSU is better than TCU so that is part of the lesson. The other part is that you have to play strong and smart in the first 5 minutes of the second half in each and every game of the season. A great team must own those minutes each night coming out of the half time break. Own those minutes in all of the games, all of them. Win the first and last 5 minutes of each half.
KU was so dead in the first five minutes of the second half they looked like kids. The KU players have to know that 7-9 in the first half from three against a home team that went 0-9 needs to be protected with solid D and smart play on the offensive end. KU had their best shooting half behind them so you have to play smart on offense and tough on defense when you are playing on the road. These young KU players gave another lead away with zero fight. Poof: all their good work given away. OSU was going to go into the second half tough, hard, defending their home court and KU did nothing to match the effort.
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@icthawkfan316 So do you disagree with what I posted or do you just not like the fact that I posted. I noticed that REHawk posted the exact same thing about ‘outcoached’ at the exact same time that I did. Are you gonna take him to task also?
And what’s unconstructive about saying Bill needs to figure out how to beat a press and how to get his 3pt shooters open? Of course, I don’t think there’s any ‘debate’ about that, so I guess I’m not contributing to that ‘debate.’
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@KUinLA Interesting that you didn’t answer my question but ask a bunch of your own. Guess your failure to answer pretty much answers it for me. The difference between you and REHawk is he is here often and isn’t a one-trick pony just saying “Self sucks”. If you were here for any other purposes than to do that yourself you’d know that.
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@icthawkfan316 Okay, I can’t even figure out what you’re talking about at this point, lol. I know you are, but what am I?
Go to bed and get some sleep, buddy–it’s late.
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I’m always sad when we lose, but as much as I hated listening to Van Gundy, he had one good thing to say before I couldn’t take him any more and switched the sound over to Bob Davis, and that was, the loss to Kentucky, was the perfect breakdown to give a coach a blueprint as to what he has and how to build on it. Jamari had to be in the game because wishing that Cliff is the one is just wrong. His telegraphed, top of the key pass to Greene allowed me to see almost a second ahead of time why Self needs hair plugs. Watching him try to guard Nash and Cobbins was painful. Jamari has come a long way but he will never be more than a big energy guy, however, he is actually more trust worthy tha Cliff. Our Freshmen were Freshmen in a road environment where even 2/3 of a usual crowd, watching a desperate team go crazy as their early press success led them to an even greater effort. Self had to play the hand he was dealt. Hopefully, Kelly, Cliff and Devonte haven’t hit the Freshman wall. Jamari and Brannen played against the press because they had to. I believe in Coach. This is a game that will make us better. I predict that more than 1/2 hour will be spent on breaking the press. WVU, by the way gave us # 11 yesterday. If anyone splits with us it will be OU.
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@wrwlumpy Well, I have to ask the obvious question…you’re not worried about ISU?
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You’re right, but OU impresses me more right now.
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****@icthawkfan316 Predictable.
Do you only show up after losses to blast Self? Has anyone EVER seen this guy (or girl, idk I guess) come in here and offer anything constructive, or contribute to a debate, or to celebrate a victory?
I haven’t, dating back to the kusports site…
Part of the enjoyment of being a KU fan is we win a heck of a lot more than we lose. Feel free to embrace the good once in awhile too.****
Slam dunk - I thought it …you wrote it. I would’ve added " Debbie Downer", or " Negative Nelly", but your response was more measured and mature than mine would’ve been.
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“This is just a loss. An expected loss, perhaps. But the way we lose and perform sheds great light on what to expect as we move forward.”
Well said and is exactly how I feel about this game. We gave them the game, we’ve given every road game to the other team for the taking except Texas. This is how we played at ISU, Baylor, TCU and now Oklahoma St. Notice the trend? We suck on the road, PERIOD.
Missed shots & turnovers lost this game and maybe a little pathetic defense thrown in there. The sequence in the 2nd half from the start to about the 10 minute mark was POOR coaching. Self’s didn’t find a way to stop the bleeding he only seemed to encourage it. I think we had 4 straight possessions without a shot, that’s reminiscent of last years squad against Florida. We missed something like 7 missed shots and now were down 4. The game was over then, I knew it I’m sure others did too.
The only reason this didn’t turn into a 15 point game the other way is because OSU is really terrible.
I said they needed one of their role players to step up well they got a combo of Luck shooting from Hickey and strong play from Newberry. Those performances won them the game.
We absolutely suck with pressure. They stopped us from running any tempo off made baskets and that totally made us a halfcourt team which we struggled with mightily. We got away aggressive play to the basket or drive to set up shooters. Mason for one of the first times yesterday showed how much he still needs to improve on being the PG. Some very poor play from him yesterday other than made 3 pointers. You think their pressure is anything, wait until West Virginia gets 25 turnovers on us. WVU isn’t playing well, but yesterday says exactly how we play on the road.
I don’t want to sound all negative, but these are the things that beat us in March. These are the games we should win that cement us as being the best team in the league. But it clouds doubt when you play so poorly against an average team and let one slip away. I will be shocked if we don’t come ready to play tuesday again on the road. Another place we tend to play down to competition. Let’s all move on now…
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This is the place to let out all your bad juju.
Get it out here and now.
We’ll all feel better and we’ll put this behind us. And we should all give allowance to those who need to vent out. There is a lot of stuff to process.
Kubuckets is not a lynch mob site… but we do have the luxury of not being affiliated with anything commercial or the university. So this is the place to vent out stuff just to feel better and get on with it.
I’m not going to get down on anyone for saying anything right now. It’s best to let things out. Healthier.
Once things are out, we can start rebuilding some trust and spirit.
Could it be that this loss will help these young kids?
This is one of the youngest teams in college basketball. They don’t have so many losses to draw from. Seems they will have a let down every X amount of games.
What alarmed me most about this loss was Frank Mason… our rock.
He seems to be wearing down. We were 5 days without a game, and he looked exhausted. He made mistakes he seldom makes. I think many of us have seen this coming over the past several games.
The question is… if Frank is now only firing on 7 cylinders, what is the chance he will soon be firing on only 6 cylinders?
It is crystal clear that Self needs to lighten his minutes now… right now. next game. And he needs to pull him off of the extra drives to the hole. Frank has been the savior for this team all year and it’s time the other guys step up and save Frank now. Freshmen need to man up now, but even more, what about our most senior players, like Perry? He had been coming on, but he reverted back into being mostly invisible this game.
Kansas needs to look at some areas where they are weak, and they need to protect those areas. For example, Wayne’s shot is coming around and we are all thankful for that, but his dribbling skills are very much lacking. He had at least 2 dribbling TOs in this game. And we’ve seen him make many ill-advised drives to the basket this year. It is a pity to handcuff part of his game, but someone needs to set him straight because this is really hurting the team.
BamBam’s role in the offense of coming out top needs to be reassessed. First… he’s not an outside shooter, so pulling him out top isn’t really effective. His man on D just mushes back in the lane to block the post area. BamBam is not a skilled passer. He is fine when others are wide open and he isn’t sped up, but when the game is on the line and our opponent steps up to play some real D, he becomes a liability. He is best used as a slasher, and in that role, he actually becomes a legitimate scoring threat.
We are going to need to pick up more offense from players NOT named Frank.
This team is NOT the team we had in '08. We can’t constantly run the top of the key weave. Teams are figuring out that they know what will happen next so a defender has started to step out in front of the next KU player to receive the ball. I can’t believe it has taken 10 years for defenses to figure it out… but now they know. It is a “flow” type movement, and the guy with the ball just wants to finish out his movement and pass. It is beyond being telegraphed.
Last… it would be great if this team could carry a chip on their shoulders again. I think we carried a small chip after Kentucky, because no one took them serious for a while. The Temple game provided a little extra momentum. These guys need to think to themselves… does it take a complete shellacking by another team to get these guys motivated moving forward? Really?
This is a great time for these guys to call a team meeting without the coaches. This is a great time for one or two guys to step up and take charge. What would really help the most is if Perry could step up and verbalize leadership to this team. He is the less likely guy and that means it has the most potential for helping get these guys fired up. They need to prevent having a big skid right now. There are many tough games left, and this team is lacking leadership and direction. Add that into their youth and we have the potential for a horrible skid and #11 quickly becomes out of reach. They should see that now, while they have time to get it together.
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@wrwlumpy After your comment, I did what I always do at this time of year…look at the remaining schedules of our competition and try to predict how they might finish…a worthless exercise, I know, but kind of fun. OU (and I agree with you on how they are playing) has @OSU @KSU, @ ISU, and us at home. Unless we beat them, I can see them only losing to ISU and finishing with 5 losses. ISU has a tougher schedule as they play at OU this week,@ OSU, @ Tex and @ KSU. I could see them, in theory, only ending up with 4 losses. Either way, our margin for error just got smaller.
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Lost by 5.
18 TOs.
That is 18 times we didn’t even get a chance to shoot!
DEFENSE STARTS WITH OFFENSE!
Even a great defensive team cannot get 18 stops to make up for 18 TOs.
TURNOVERS ARE OFFENSIVE STOPS.
@Jesse-Newell, your stats got you a solid prediction on this loss. It is time for spatial QA. It is time for some SPATIAL QA.
We need a TURNOVER MAP.
Where do TOs occur on the floor and let’s not go there. Let’s go some where else?
Are playing two point guards helping this?
Do we need to play 3 when another team goes small and pressures us, or just use one PG and go long and overhead pass it around the floor where they can’t reach high enough to strip or pressure is into bad passes?
MAP…TURNOVERS…NOW…PLEASE!!!
I just lost my win out prediction.
The Emperor is buck naked and facing an angry @REHawk!!
Map me a TO map, please!!!
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Still sticking to my tourney predictions. If we were to go back 2 months ago, and look at the standings and say we lost to OSU at their place, and we are still one game ahead, I would have taken that in a heart beat! Flat games happen. Even though I was extremely frustrated, lets put it into perspective.
The thing I noticed is why Mason is getting a free pass for this game? His shot looked better with his 3s, and got a nice steal, but that was it. He came out flat. Missed important free throws, didn’t push the tempo, never beat his man off the dribble but when he did, missed floaters. Frank is still a stud and will continue to drive this team. However, tonight he was not himself. Him and Perry had games that killed us.
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It’s the end of my prediction,
As we know it.
It’s the end of my prediction
As we know it,
And I feel fine…
–R.E.M.bate 1.0
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“They need to prevent having a big skid right now.”
We play TT on Tuesday in Lubbock.
Could this be our “TCU” game?
Could this be our 3-game dip?
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@drgnslayr I think we’re going to have a lot of “dips” until Oubre, Traylor and Selden figure out how to play basketball. And they’re not alone, just the three worst offenders in my book right at this moment.
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@Crimsonorblue22 On CF, he has 2 1/2 seasons left. Since he enrolled and attended school the first semester, that counts, whether he played, or not. The rule is each player has 5 seasons to play 4, unless there is a medical redshirt. He’ll be eligible after the conclusion of the first semester in the 2015-16 season.
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@jaybate-1.0 HA!
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For me the sky isn’t falling because this is not a loss in the NCAA tournament. If we beat Oklahoma St. yesterday and then go on to lose in the 2nd round to a team like Stanford I tend to forget about a great road win in Stillwater. If we lose yesterday (like we did) and go on to a Final 4 I could care less about this game and I will probably forget it even happened.
I certainly enjoy the ride and I watch every minute of every game with pure enjoyment win or lose, but for me and most of the posters on this site it is all about how we perform in March. If we lose 5 more games in the regular season and lose our first round game of the Big 12 tourney and get a 7 seed and then somehow turn it on in the NCAA I honestly don’t care. It is all about the year end. I’m obviously thinking of UK and UCONN when I say this but it is possible. Improbable but possible.
Speaking of March as HEM and other posters often site it is much easier to get to the Final 4 with a 1 seed. A loss like this certainly hurts our chances of getting a 1. UK, Gonzaga, Duke, Virgina, Wisconsin, Zona (even though they lost), Nova…these teams are probably all ahead of us if we don’t come close to winning out. Maybe only 1 more loss on the road. At WVU or at OU would be the toughest games left. If we win one of those and win out at home we still have a shot. RCJH.
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To me, it’s not as much as the number of threes we took, or didn’t take…it’s a matter of handling the ball. We are not a good team when we turn over the ball. I don’t know what is going on with Devonte, but his whole demeanor has changed, along with his play. I think Frank is gassed…exhausted, and was making mistakes we haven’t seen all year. I think Jamari should not be allowed to touch the ball outside of 10 feet in the paint. And Wayne…love the 3 stroke, where’s your head at handling the ball? We lost because we gave them a tremendous number of extra opportunities, many of them layups, or easy shots. We got out toughed by an inferior team. Not the end of the world, but I don’t feel nearly as good about our ability to handle pressure. We looked like that lost team in the NCAAs last year in the 2nd half.
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**@jaybate-1.0 Lost by 5.
18 TOs.
That is 18 times we didn’t even get a chance to shoot!**
You snuck in there, and I missed your more eloquent post than mine about turnovers. Great minds think alike!!!
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@icthawkfan316 Did you see the quote from Greene earlier this week?
"Greene said Self allows him to fire away ‘as long as it’s in the flow of the offense. His main thing is get the easiest shots. Sometimes me shooting a long three is our best chance at that point. Wherever the shot clock may be, certain parts of the game, certain times of the game.’ "
Sounds like a red light/yellow light thing to me.
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@HighEliteMajor I remember a couple of instances where Greene hesitated on shots he could have taken, as you pointed out. Were those after he got the 3 pt attempt blocked? Could that have been part of his hesitation?
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That yesterday wasn’t a very good day is abundantly clear. Giving the ball away about 4 times to start the second half gave OSU confidence that they did not have until that point. We were listless and did not play very well. Self wasn’t happy about the first half except for the made shots he thought we played poorly.
Now let us imagine how WVU fans feel today about having their lunch totally eaten AT HOME by Baylor. Talk about listless. Who would have thought that Staten and the rest could play that poorly.
And poor UofA. To get bounced by a middling team like ASU must be particularly galling.
Well at least UK kicked the bejesus out of Flordia. NOT! With the exception of Duke and Virginia yesterday was pretty unforgettable for the top teams.
It is gloomy and rainy here in the bay area (god do we need it). I imagine that the weather is similar on most boards for the top schools around the country. Even UNC can’t celebrate their win against that powerhouse BC wilh the news about Dean Smith.
