Wiggins and James, 01/31/2015
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@approxinfinity Hey that was a good article, thanks for the link. Its a good feeling to see one of our KU boys rising up to be the next Paul Pierce, possibly.
It was my impression though, that Wigs played SG/SF, while Lebron plays SF/PF. Sooooo I guess they kind of play the same position but kind of not also. I mean it sounds like they took turns guarding each other. The highlights also show Lebron getting scored on by Wigs and vice versa. But truly, Wigs starts for Minnesota at the 2 guard spot and King James starts at SF. Again, good article, I liked hearing Lebron and Kevin say such good things about Andrew. We all knew he would be an awesome player. RCJH!
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Wiggins had a great game and scored 33 points frequently taking it to LeBron and Love and, on a couple of occasions, he went against both of them to score. Other than rebounding, Love is really not a good defender. Once the Wolves get to full strength they will be pretty good; Rubio is expected to start playing any time now. I am convinced that we will be seeing Wiggins highlight for a long time…
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@JayHawkFanToo Nice! That was awesome!
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@JayHawkFanToo nice man. Here’s another video with a couple other highlights from Wiggins:
http://www.nba.com/video/games/timberwolves/2015/01/31/0021400711-cle-min-recap.nba/
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I think it’s huckin fliarious that Wiggins is putting up the numbers, the defense, and the skills as a TEENAGER. What was Love doing his first year in the league? Not this at all. James was great, but how great was he his first year in the league? Of course James skipped college too.
My point: I’m going to say that Wiggins is better than Love at this point than when Love was a rookie. I’d say that he’s as good as James at this point as a rookie, if not better. I know the argument is moot, we all agree, but it’s funny they are forgetting Wiggins’ age and comparing him to James and Love. This is pretty amazing. He’s being compared to two very long time veterans in the league.
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This trade was good for both teams. It’s good for Cleveland now because Love is a very good player that will make them better for the next 2-3 years (their primary title window). It’s good for Minnesota later because they are trying to rebuild and it helps to rebuild with a lot of young talent.
Love averaged 11 points, 9 rebounds per game as a rookie, shooting 46% from the field and 79% from the line.
James averaged 21 points, 5 rebounds and 6 assists as a rookie, shooting 42% from the field and 75% from the line.
Wiggins is currently at 16 points, 4 rebounds and 2 assists on 43% shooting and 73% from the line.
I’d say he’s basically on par with Love as a rookie, maybe slightly ahead because of defense, but you also have to consider that Love has averaged over 10 rebounds every year except his rookie season, and has averaged 17 points every year after his first two campaigns. Love was an elite player his third season in the league. We don’t know yet if Wiggins will be an elite player that quickly or not. Love is having his worst season since his second year this year and he’s averaging 17/10/2 assists.
Wiggins is nowhere close to where Lebron was as a rookie.
Lebron averaged 5.4 more points, 1.3 more rebounds, 4.1 more assists, 0.5 more steals. Wiggins is shooting a higher percentage from three (36% vs. 29%), but Lebron was higher from the line (75% to 72%), while getting to the line more. Lebron’s assist to turnover ratio was nearly 2-1. Wiggins currently has more turnovers than assists.
I love Wiggins and think he will be a tremendous pro, but Lebron was pretty clearly an all timer even as a rookie. Wiggins is not on the level that Lebron was on, even as a rookie. We also have to remember that Lebron was an elite player his second year in the league, averaging 27 points, 7 rebounds, 7 assists and 2 steals in his second year, while jumping from 42% to 47% shooting. Wiggins would basically have to double his productivity from this season to next to match that. That’s a tall order.
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I agree with your assessment. LeBron is in a class by himself and Love is also one heck of a player that has put consistent high number for several year. Wiggins is doing better than many expected and will likely have a great career. Don’t forget that some members of this forum wrote that he would be just an average journeyman in the NBA.
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@JayHawkFanToo I did forget that some people on this site were saying Wigs would be just a journeyman. Id say that statement is pretty false right now. Barring any unforeseen circumstances Wigs will be an all star many times over.
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I think those that thought Wiggins would be a journeyman were speaking from a position of disliking OADs rather than from a true basketball perspective. Wiggins has elite athleticism coupled with solid basketball skills. His size means he can play either wing spot, and his physical tools allow him to be a potentially elite defender.
I haven’t quite locked in on multiple all star yet because I want to see him develop a little more of a well rounded game - he’s neither an especially good rebounder (4 a game) or passer (2 assists per game). Right now he’s a good starter. If he improves his rebounding to about 6 a game and bumps the assist number to between 3 and 4, now we have a potential all star because I think he will be a 20 ppg scorer. A 20 point, 4 rebound, 2 assist guy probably isn’t a perennial all star because he will be passed over by more well rounded players a lot of years.
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It just seemed nuts to trade a stud like Wiggins for Love.
Kevin Love is 26, and has a roadmap of scar tissue running throughout his body.
Andrew Wiggins is 19, and is healthy.
Both are quality players… there was a known factor with Love… along with his known weaknesses.
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Love was/is a better complement to LeBron where Wiggins basically plays the same position. No question that Cleveland was trying to build a team to win now rather than in the future and Love fit those plans better.
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Wiggins to play in the Rising Stars Challenge, which pits Rookies/second year players in a US vs the World format.
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Wiggins seems to be a lock for Rookie of the Year, and if previous winners are an indicator, he should have a pretty good career.
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Wiggins is a lock both from performance and attrition. Look at the top 15 picks in last years draft.
- Wiggins - playing well. 48 games total
- Parker - out for the year with an ACL injury after just 25 games total
- Embiid - out for the year with foot injury (0 games)
- Gordon - has missed 31 games this year with a foot injury (19 games total)
- Exum - playing very sparingly for Utah (47 games total)
- Smart - missed 10 games with an ankle injury, up and down so far productionwise (32 games total)
- Randle - broke his leg in his first NBA game. Out for the year (1 game)
- Stauskas - playing sparingly for Sacramento (44 games total)
- Vonleh - missed the start of the season with a sports hernia (10 games total)
- Payton - has played (starting) most of the year, but isn’t even averaging double figure points. Shooting very poorly. 51 games total
- McDermott - played in the first 19 games, then had knee surgery. Probably done for the year. 19 games total
- Saric - still playing in Europe. 0 games
- LaVine - Wiggins teammate has been solid, but not as strong as Wiggins so far. Currently out with an ankle injury (44 games)
- Warren - broke a bone in his hand in the preseason. Missed a few games. Has been back and forth between the D-League trying to get healthy and to get consistent minutes. 15 games
- Payne - didn’t debut until December 26 due to injury. Has been back and forth between the D-League getting healthy (3 games)
Considering that every team has played over 45 games, that means Parker, Embiid, Gordon, Randle, Vonleh, McDermott, Saric, Warren and Payne are all guaranteed to have missed at least one third of the season overall. Smart probably won’t play in 70 games this season. Only Payton, Wiggins, Exum, LaVine and Stauskas have a shot at playing in 90% of the games this year. For everyone else, this season is basically a lost year due to injury. Sad, and really bizarre that so many guys got hurt this year.
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Does every one now get how much Wigs was apparently sand bagging, no, protecting the merchandise, at KU?
Anyone that understands the game should have guessed he could have hung 50-60 any D1 game he had wanted to. He just spent the season working on fundies and trying to plug in so Self could develop the team for last year and this. His Trey was his only gap and he is tightening it up some.
There appeared zero chance he was going to expose himself to D1 headhunting in a game like Stanford without Embiid making a run realistic.
Wigs is a phenomenal talent who should never have had to play In D1 protecting the merch.
It was a waste, even though he probably learned a lot about team from Self. He could have learned the same thing in the NBA.
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“Love was/is a better complement to LeBron where Wiggins basically plays the same position. No question that Cleveland was trying to build a team to win now rather than in the future and Love fit those plans better.”
That is exactly the thoughts of Cleveland.
Does it make sense to invest your future all in just a short span for success? The pressure is on… big time. If Cleveland can’t bring home the gold within 3 they are dead. Love’s time clock is running towards the end along with James’ dominance. Love is about one injury away from being toast. And Cleveland still looks a long ways from being championship material. Defense still wins championships… and I’d definitely take even a rookie Wiggins over Love.
Wigs and James only play the same position on paper. In reality James is a PF and Wigs is a SF or a SG. The only reason they are considered the same position is that James can score from anywhere and needs more exposure to the ball than a traditional PF gets. He just didn’t want to share the point totals with Wigs. He’s still living outside of reality and feels invincible. Wigs was his savior for extending his career and for helping reduce the pressure on him. Wigs is the “other threat” creating more scoring space and less double-teaming of James.
Love is a guy who will do some of the dirty work on rebounds. James would rather be focused on shutting down another team’s all star scorer. But is that the answer for defense? One good defender shutting down one scorer instead of two good defenders shutting down two scorers?
It is all about his ego instead of what is right for the franchise and actually… what is right for James. He’s just too proud when he plays in Ohio. That’s why I"m doubtful James will win more gold in Cleveland.
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I think making this a comparison between Love and Wiggins gets it all wrong.
Remember, Cleveland already had a perimeter scorer in Kyrie Irving, plus a high pick in Dion Waiters and the return of Lebron. Before the trade, Cleveland was a very perimeter oriented team with no real inside threats given that neither Thompson or Bennett had developed as hoped. That meant Cleveland had a lot of perimeter guys, but not much inside. They were very unbalanced once Lebron returned. They needed an inside guy so Lebron didn’t have to exert himself by playing the other team’s PF every night.
To get Love, they were going to have to give up something significant. Minnesota was not going to get fleeced in this deal. Knowing that James was back, Minnesota was not interested in future first round picks, because those would almost certainly be non-lottery selections. Bennett alone wouldn’t be enough and they weren’t interested in veterans because if they dealt Love, that meant a rebuild. I think (rightly) that they weren’t interested in a Bennett/ Waiters package, either, because that’s not as good a return as Bennett-Wiggins. Love was always going to cost Wiggins because either Wiggins or Waiters had to go, and Minnesota wasn’t doing the deal without Wiggins.
You couldn’t play Irving, Waiters, Wiggins, James and either Bennett or Thompson together without ending up being too small. If a good package had been out there for another strong inside player that would have moved Waiters and either Bennett or Thompson, I think Cleveland would have happily made that trade, but everybody in the NBA was going to ask for Wiggins in return because he was the best asset they could offer. They ended up having to move Waiters anyway, but Waiters would not have brought back the return that Wiggins did, as we saw from the later trade.
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You know you like to point out that we don’t know what to expect from Wiggins yet. Well I think he’s showing us he’s going to be pretty good. ')
You proclaim this was a great trade, yet we don’t even know if Love and James will be in Cleveland next year.
(unless somebody inked a new deal here lately). So if Cleveland doesn’t win the championship, James decides to opt out and Love doesn’t resign. Then what? Cleveland is then left with nothing but a ball hogging point guard. This deal could very well blow up in Cleveland’s face. They very well could’ve gambled away the future of their franchise. :oStill think that’s a good trade? You don’t get to play the We don’t know what Wiggins is card and proclaim the trade was a no-brainer. There is a lot of if’s and buts in this whole deal. B| However there is and old saying we’re there is smoke there is fire.
When this trade first reared it’s ugly face, most people were like no-brainer. Yet the tide is changing, and more info has been processed, the stage is offering up insights to this trade. Some are starting to change their mind.
Bottom-line when you offer up everything in the house and your grandma too for a run at a championship. You can lose everything and have nothing show for your no-brainer trade. (Poor Grandma '( )
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I respectfully disagree. LeBron is really not a PF although at times he as played that position. Much like Magic, he is the rare type of player that can play all 5 positions when needed, but his true position is SF/G. Cleveland had Varejao, Thompson, and Haywood to play Center, LeBron at SF and several players led by Kyrie at the Guard(s); the true weakness they had was PF. Love was at the time the top ranked PF and a stretch 4 at that with a great 3 point shot and the best rebounder and outlet passer in the NBA, in other words, the perfect compliment to LeBron who hand picked him; the only comparable PFs would be Nowitzki and Aldridge and there is no way Portland lets Aldridge go and Nowitzki is getting to the end of his career and will not leave Dallas. Of course injuries did a number on the original plans and Cleveland had to acquire another center, Mozgov, and reshuffle the guards and acquire new ones, but Love and James have remained solidly at the PF and SF positions. By the way, Cleveland is a different team with LeBron than without him and I suspect any team he plays for would be; while he sat injured Cleveland lost 6 games in a row and after he returned they are on 11 game winning streak…very telling of his value to the team.
The Cavaliers and the NBA as well as every other publication I have read list James as a SF and I was unable to find one that lists or considers him a PF. Sorry Slayr but on this issue we will have to agree to disagree.
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I have mentioned before of the danger of having James and Love only signed for this season and, as you mentioned, it could very well blow up in Cleveland’s face. Love was in a team with no hope of getting even close to being a Championship level team and LeBron saw the writing on the wall at Miami and both were looking for a team that could be a contender…enter Cleveland. It is possible that both could be gone after the season…but then,nothing succeeds like success…and a good run to the Title, or at leas the finals and they both stay put.
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I watch a lot of NBA basketball. I am primarily an NBA fan that also roots for KU as my college team. I said that we don’t know if Wiggins will top out to be a multiple all star. We do know that he will be a good or even very good player. But he has not yet demonstrated that he will be a dominant player.
His January numbers are strong. Averaged 19.8 ppg, 4.6 rpg, 2.5 apg, 1.4 spg on 47% shooting. That’s good, but as I said before, those numbers aren’t perennial all star numbers because he isn’t doing enough quite yet. He’s scoring, but he isn’t an above average rebounder or passer at this stage. And that was his best month by far. I fully expect Wiggins to continue to develop. By the way, those numbers are only slightly better than what Kevin Martin (Wiggins’ teammate in Minnesota) has put up this season, and I don’t think there’s anyone clamoring to put him on any all star teams (Martin is at 19.8/3.8/1.9/0.7 on 44% shooting).
But while Wiggins has been on his hot stretch, the Cavs have won 11 straight. A lot of people were burying them when they lost 6 straight while Lebron was hurt, but it’s telling that he’s gotten healthy and they have ripped off 11 in a row, including wins over contenders like the Clippers, Bulls, and Blazers.
My position has always been that Lebron is absolutely the best player in the world right now. I don’t know that Wiggins will ever be that good. He will be good, but when you have the best player in the world you do what you can to maximize the opportunity.
Cleveland’s best chance for a title are over the next three seasons while Lebron is 30, 31 and 32. As we have seen with Kobe Bryant, once you pass that mark, the wear and tear starts to really catch up. So the question for Cleveland was simple - Can Andrew Wiggins help us be better than Kevin Love can over the next 3 years.
Wiggins has basically only played above average basketball since Christmas, and until he cleans up his turnovers (right now he has 87 assists to 95 turnovers) he’s going to continue to be limited. Again, I am not saying he won’t be good. All I am saying is that he hasn’t played well enough to say that Cleveland was wrong. I still think the Cavs made the right move. Kevin Love gives them a better shot at getting past Atlanta, Chicago and Washington than Wiggins would have.
Cleveland didn’t give away the house. They kept Kyrie Irving (all star). They kept Tristan Thompson (top 5 pick). They kept (now injured) Anderson Varejao. They had Lebron. They got Love. Cleveland had the foundation of a good team regardless. Now they are healthy and they are starting to roll.
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I’ll say the same thing I said at the time of the trade: if you’re Cleveland and have a second shot with Lebron to bring a title to the much maligned city, you take it. If they win just one championship, it was worth it. To bring a title to that town…it would be akin to the players that finally broke the Red Sox curse. They will be heroes in that city forever. Lebron isn’t going to opt out. He’d be vilified all over again and cast as sport’s biggest villain for leaving his hometown twice without a ring! He’s a sensitive guy and doing it once definitely weighed on him.
Now Love could decide to leave, but as @JayHawkFanToo said, if they have a good run he’ll be back. I don’t think there’s another team situated as nicely as Cleveland is both from a competitive standpoint as well as available cap space. There’s probably two, three max that are close, but none have Lebron and I think that keeps him there barring a playoff implosion. The only two teams that I think would be enticing to him would be Golden St. and the Clippers, just because Love is a California guy. The Lakers and Kings are out because they’re league bottom feeders at the moment. The Clippers are pretty much set at PF with Blake Griffin, so they’re doubtful to get into the Love sweepstakes. That leaves Golden St. They don’t appear to have the cap space going forward, so unless they get creative with their roster and make some moves (which, why would they? They have the best record in the league now) it appears unlikely that they’ll land him either. My money is on him staying in Cleveland.
One more thing regarding Love, of course his numbers were going to go down! He was no longer the man. He’s playing second fiddle (or third fiddle, behind Kyrie) for the first time in his career. It’s a new system not designed solely to maximize his stats. Doesn’t mean he’s having an off year or a down year. I told everybody that it would be comparable to when Bosh left Toronto to go to Miami. Not sure who these people are that are questioning the trade, other than KU fans with loyalty (and therefore some bias) towards Wiggins and ESPN who is obviously not approaching it from a reporting standpoint but more from a “let’s get more clicks on our website” standpoint.
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I understand your point. However you can’t just dismiss the danger of this trade for Cleveland. They could be left holding the bag, and mud on their face. The same if’s we want to apply to Wiggins can be applied to James and Love.
Will an aging James have enough left in the tank to make the Finals? After all look at his minutes per game. Will Love be ok being the third wheel on this team? Remember both James and Love can both leave after this season.
Though I respect you love the trade, however I will have to disagree with the concept this was a no-brainer. Cleveland is indeed risking a lot on this trade.
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@justanotherfan wiggins numbers will get better across the board w/Rubio back.
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No… I agree with you on this. He is listed as a SF. But he has the body of a PF. He can perform like a PF. Actually… you are right… he can play all 5 positions!
But what difference does it make on how you list them on a piece of paper? It’s the NBA and offense is drawn up to fit the talent and match ups. Wigs and LeBron play a different game. Both have their skills. Why can’t they both be on the floor at the same time?
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As I said LeBron has played PF on occasions when his team had no other options, but his primary position has always been SF, same as Wiggins. At Miami he played a lot of guard (point-forward) and often brought the ball up the court and led the team in assists but he hardly ever played PF other than when Bosch and Battier were injured.
Here are the roster depths for Cleveland and Minnesota, you can see that both James and Wiggins play SF. Short of moving LeBron to SG, I just don’t see Wiggins and LeBron playing together (Wiggins is not a good ball handler) and this is what Cleveland saw as well and traded Wiggins for Love. Just my opinion and I could be wrong.
Here is a write up on the subject where James specifically refuses to be called a PF.
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I think Wiggins will improve his scoring and decrease his turnovers with Rubio. I don’t think his assists will go up, or that it will improve his rebounding or change his defense overall. I could see his scoring bumping up to 21 or 22 a game and his FG% getting closer to 50%. But his scoring isn’t his main issue. It’s the rest of his game. He doesn’t rebound at a high rate. Even if his turnover rate drops, unless his assist rate jumps, he’s still going to be close to a 1 to 1 ratio. And that combination makes him a higher scoring Kevin Martin. He’s not a Kevin Durant or Carmelo Anthony type of scorer, so he has to round out his game. It should be noted that both Durant and Anthony have rounded out their games even though they were both superior scorers to what Wiggins is at similar points in their careers (Anthony averaged 21 points, 6.1 rebounds and 2.8 assists as a rookie, Durant averaged 20.3/4.4/2.4). Wiggins is at 15.5/4.2/1.8. His best month still lags behind those guys full rookie year.
Trades are always dangerous. You are giving up something to get something. Unless you hoodwink someone, you have to give up value to get value back. Yes, Cleveland could be left holding the bag, but that also assumes that if they had kept Wiggins they would have been better positioned. I think that oversells Wiggins value at this point in his career. Wiggins is basically Kevin Martin right now, maybe a little bit more. I don’t think a Kevin Martin type player pushes Cleveland to where they are right now. And remember, Wiggins was basically Kevin Martin only since about Christmas! Before that, Wiggins was playing very inefficiently. Fivethirtyeight.com did a very good piece on his struggles to that point.
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@approxinfinity Loved Milt Newton. The greatest crime of that era was Ron, Calvin, and the gang losing that heartbreaker against Dook in the semis. We should’ve had two national titles from that crew…
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Thanks for doing some homework on this. I don’t follow it so close, but love to read about it. Your link was an excellent read on LeBron.
"“It’s whatever,” James said of his position. "I just try to make plays no matter if I’m at the 4, the 3 or the 1 or whatever the case may be.” "
It seems like this illustrates a big difference between the rigidity of college basketball with the open attitude in the pros. College ball likes to draw players into a position, and then make them run their sets in the same positions with very defined restrictions. Pros throw that out the window and they draw up unique stuff to run that fits the talents of their players and their match ups. Wigs and LeBron should be able to work a monster offense together since both can drive the ball and finish at the rim, both can hit the outside shot. The defense can’t be everywhere… so how do you stop those guys when they are on the floor together? Wigs is quickly playing like a young, healthy DWade. He’s a long ways from DWade’s skill set, but he is making up ground with his athleticism.
Wigs still isn’t great handling the ball, but he is improving… and they are starting to realize he’s a better player when he receives the ball while in motion… something Self should have taken advantage of but couldn’t in his rigid offense.
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I guess some think Wiggins sucks ???
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@DoubleDD watching this does not get old. hopefully this is a game people point back to and say “remember when…”
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More evidence that Wiggins would have been more valuable than Love … Now there’s talk of the loss of Love being addition by subtraction for the Cavs D, helping them to the 2 0 lead they have over the Hawks. So again, why not acquire an interior defender like Mozgov instead of trading for Love?
http://espn.go.com/blog/cleveland-cavaliers/post/_/id/967/cavs-revamped-d-has-hawks-on-the-ropes
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@approxinfinity I have to agree. I have said all along that this trade will hurt them in the long run.
You can’t blame a team that can get a top 5 big man for a player who hasn’t proved himself yet. But Lebron has maybe 3 years at most to dominate competition. And with Love, they were never guaranteed more than one year with him.
If they kept Wiggins, they might not be as good this year but imagine what would happen in 5 years? Because of their win now philosophy, James might get one championship rather than 2 or 3. He could have been an excellent third option in years and rode Irving and Wiggins for more championships.
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“More evidence that Wiggins would have been more valuable than Love …”
If Wigs stays healthy and keeps building his game (why shouldn’t he?)… the real evidence that Wigs shouldn’t have been traded for Love will become apparent in years to come. Wigs may reach superstar status and hold that title for a decade or longer. And where will Love be? He’ll be chomping popcorn on the couch and drawing a salary for not playing because he is injured or just too many hits and can’t compete.
I said it then, I’ll say it now… that was the biggest bonehead GM move ever since “The Fatal Pick” when the Trailblazers picked Bowie over Jordan.
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@drgnslayr but… Wigs is better off where he is now!! I don’t care about the cavs!
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A million times better off! F$&% being in the playoffs but having to take orders from both coaches and an inflated-ego player!
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Just throwing this out there
What if the Cavs and LeBron do win a championship this year? Forget Love would LeBron come back?
In all reality LeBron would be off the hook with his Cleveland background and connection. He could say, “I came back”, “I won you a championship”. Now I’m taking my ball and going somewhere else.
It my be a reach on my part, but it’s not unthinkable. LeBron maybe the best basketball player to lace them up in sometime, but he’s also a business man. He’ll want to maximize his brand and earnings while he’ll still can. LeBron maybe good for Cleveland but Cleveland may not be good for LeBron.
Besides he left the Cavs once, he could do it again. Remember he basically signed a year to year contract.
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@DoubleDD The Cav’s are short handed and short benched. Lebron is basically willing this team to win on his own. The Warriors on the other hand, have the MVP and a very deep team. I dont doubt Lebrons skills at all, I just doubt him being able to single handedly get past the Warriors for the title this year. Well, if Kyrie plays and he is 100%, it might be different. Either way, Warriors win in 7 games. Then, would the loss give Lebron an excuse to bail for Idk, say teaming up with Kevin Durant and Westbrook somewhere else? Both those two are nearing free agency as well.
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I am still more than somewhat dumbfounded by the numbers posted by, and the success of, Andrew Wiggins this season. Of course, good fortune had lots to do with it, as his body held up remarkably. But the best thing that could have happened for him was to escape Coach James and Co. Cleveland might very well win a title with James, perhaps even two if he should decide to stay in town for a spell. I feel certain that Wiggins would not have developed his current stats, experience and confidence if he had stayed within the hub of the current Cavs system. Now Andrew is a rising star in his very own right, away from the spectacle and domination of LeBron. Not to denigrate LeBron’s talent as a player, because I view him as the #1 Player on Planet Earth right now. But he is a dominating force, even among his own program. Wiggins was set free to soar. He is currently spoken of as very possibly the future Jordan or James. Rare air.
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@REHawk @Crimsonorblue22 I appreciate the perspective. Just seeking to discredit the decision-making process by Cleveland. They sought defense - they traded a solid defender (and capable scorer) for one of the arguably worst interior defenders in the league. He gets hurt and they start clicking. And if hte media goes so far as to say that they are better defensively because he’s out, and that’s what they need at this juncture, I’d like them to drop the other foot and acknowledge that the Wiggins trade was a mistake for Cleveland.
I totally agree that Minnesota is better for Wiggins. But I’d like to see Gilbert and LeBron take some heat for making a short-sighted decision. I’ve never been a fan of James, nor Gilbert, and I’d like to see them humbled.
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@approxinfinity A picture of a humbled LeBron James is something which we will never see. It’s not in his makeup. Gilbert on the other hand is an idiot and idiots generally don’t see their failures.
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I’ve never had a problem with the Cavs before… but after Dellavedova cheap shots the Cavs to the Finals… I’ve definitely started to dislike them. He is clearly rolling guys onto the disabled list intentionally. What he does isn’t even legal in the NFL.
Horford is a legit player. Legit players never know how to retaliate. He should have pulled a Marcus Smart flop and thrown his own legs out and then landed his entire body on Dellavedova’s head. He would have gone to the foul line and made a point about taking guys’ legs out.
You won’t see Dellavedova around in the league long. Not now. He’s going to receive plenty of cheap shots from experienced guys who know how to do it while drawing a foul in the process. Amazing how it just so happened against the only real offensive threat Atlanta had.
There is an unwritten rule everywhere in basketball. You leave players’ legs alone. And another rule… if you go after players’ legs then everyone goes after you.
I’d like to sign up for Atlanta and show Dellavedova the right way to roll a leg… What a scumbag.
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@drgnslayr I disagree man. I just watched the replay a few times of that particular incident. Della was just boxing out and going for the ball, he had his eyes on it the whole time while Horford was holding his left arm and pulling down until Della trips over Demarre Carroll on the ground and rolls into Horford. I really dont think it was intentional at all. I didnt see the other plays he was involved, but this time it was all incidental contact. There was no foul on his part.
I mean, I don’t particularly care about who wins the series. Im not biased towards either the Hawks or Cavs so Im just saying this based on what the tape shows.
Although, truth be told, Id rather the Hawks win it so my Dubs can have an easier time winning the finals.
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Horford is a super mellow guy. He doesn’t throw elbows. But he did, because Dellavedova continued his roll, reaching for his legs. You really have to see what Dellavedova did in the other playoff game. It was a different version of the same thing.
Playing at this level… these guys are skilled. The play Dellavedova pulled on Horford is more a possibility with less athletic players. But at this level, plays like that, players can guard from rolling on another players’ legs (in many instances). This was one of those. Instead of intentionally pulling up short, he actually lunged from his legs to bring himself into contact with Horford. Like I said above, Horford isn’t a guy who goes off like that… not without provocation.
The big puzzle is why Dellavedova received a technical foul? So the refs acknowledge his cheap shot, and because it didn’t disable Horford it only draws a technical foul? Dellavedova said very little after getting up, and if it was bad enough to draw a technical we would have seen it inflame Horford.
What he does is legal. Going for the ball. It’s just without ethics. But the NBA has plenty capabilities to “self-correct” and you’ll see that happen, perhaps even in the Finals. Look how effective Dellavedova was last night. He took their big offense right out of the game, in a game that still went to overtime.
Come on, we are talking about Cleveland. City with no self esteem. City with bad cops and even worse offenders. They are going to do whatever they can to win one. To break the curse. A curse held by all their sports teams. This has just a little bit of that same feeling that the Detroit Pistons went through to finally break their curse. Same low esteem city. Dirty play.
I spent quite a bit of time in Cleveland many years ago. I get what LeBron is trying to do. He’s trying to help lift the esteem of his town. They can definitely use it!
I don’t care about either one of these teams.
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@drgnslayr If Horford really wanted to hurt Dellavedova, he could have “lost his balance” and landed on his head. In the Friday incident with Korver the angle shown most often shows what appears to be a complete accident. The replay that was shown from the back showed that Dellavedova was either trying to hurt him or he really didn’t care.
Dellavedova only stays in the league because of his hustle. His 3pt shot isn’t bad but that can be said about a lot of players. We will probably see more of this until someone rearranges his teeth.
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This isn’t the first time for Horford. While I think he has a conscience I also think he’s prone to episodes of in-the-moment competitive sociopathy (ics).
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@drgnslayr You’re right man, I saw him push off with his feet too. Even if he didnt push off, he was still headed in that same direction, contact with Horford below the thighs was inevitable at that point. Maybe he was trying to slide into the fall instead of landing solid on his behind?
I dont know about the other instances, I never saw them. Im just not sold on Della intentionally trying to hurt Horford. If he did, shame on him and Lebron for defending him.
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Thanks for sharing the video.
That’s a play where the league needs to step in and hammer down on these guys for the hard foul. This has gone on forever. Play the ball while smacking down hard on a guy to prevent the “and one.”
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@drgnslayr Agreed. That foul was the beginning of the end of TJ Ford’s career, right when he was firing on all cylinders. He was never the same, and it was a damn shame. Horford did visit him in the hospital after the game, but damage done.
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Isn’t this the third incident for Dellavedova in the last few games? One is accidental, two is coincidence but three is a trend.
