Wiggins and James, 01/31/2015
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@justanotherfan wiggins numbers will get better across the board w/Rubio back.
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No… I agree with you on this. He is listed as a SF. But he has the body of a PF. He can perform like a PF. Actually… you are right… he can play all 5 positions!
But what difference does it make on how you list them on a piece of paper? It’s the NBA and offense is drawn up to fit the talent and match ups. Wigs and LeBron play a different game. Both have their skills. Why can’t they both be on the floor at the same time?
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As I said LeBron has played PF on occasions when his team had no other options, but his primary position has always been SF, same as Wiggins. At Miami he played a lot of guard (point-forward) and often brought the ball up the court and led the team in assists but he hardly ever played PF other than when Bosch and Battier were injured.
Here are the roster depths for Cleveland and Minnesota, you can see that both James and Wiggins play SF. Short of moving LeBron to SG, I just don’t see Wiggins and LeBron playing together (Wiggins is not a good ball handler) and this is what Cleveland saw as well and traded Wiggins for Love. Just my opinion and I could be wrong.
Here is a write up on the subject where James specifically refuses to be called a PF.
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I think Wiggins will improve his scoring and decrease his turnovers with Rubio. I don’t think his assists will go up, or that it will improve his rebounding or change his defense overall. I could see his scoring bumping up to 21 or 22 a game and his FG% getting closer to 50%. But his scoring isn’t his main issue. It’s the rest of his game. He doesn’t rebound at a high rate. Even if his turnover rate drops, unless his assist rate jumps, he’s still going to be close to a 1 to 1 ratio. And that combination makes him a higher scoring Kevin Martin. He’s not a Kevin Durant or Carmelo Anthony type of scorer, so he has to round out his game. It should be noted that both Durant and Anthony have rounded out their games even though they were both superior scorers to what Wiggins is at similar points in their careers (Anthony averaged 21 points, 6.1 rebounds and 2.8 assists as a rookie, Durant averaged 20.3/4.4/2.4). Wiggins is at 15.5/4.2/1.8. His best month still lags behind those guys full rookie year.
Trades are always dangerous. You are giving up something to get something. Unless you hoodwink someone, you have to give up value to get value back. Yes, Cleveland could be left holding the bag, but that also assumes that if they had kept Wiggins they would have been better positioned. I think that oversells Wiggins value at this point in his career. Wiggins is basically Kevin Martin right now, maybe a little bit more. I don’t think a Kevin Martin type player pushes Cleveland to where they are right now. And remember, Wiggins was basically Kevin Martin only since about Christmas! Before that, Wiggins was playing very inefficiently. Fivethirtyeight.com did a very good piece on his struggles to that point.
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@approxinfinity Loved Milt Newton. The greatest crime of that era was Ron, Calvin, and the gang losing that heartbreaker against Dook in the semis. We should’ve had two national titles from that crew…
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Thanks for doing some homework on this. I don’t follow it so close, but love to read about it. Your link was an excellent read on LeBron.
"“It’s whatever,” James said of his position. "I just try to make plays no matter if I’m at the 4, the 3 or the 1 or whatever the case may be.” "
It seems like this illustrates a big difference between the rigidity of college basketball with the open attitude in the pros. College ball likes to draw players into a position, and then make them run their sets in the same positions with very defined restrictions. Pros throw that out the window and they draw up unique stuff to run that fits the talents of their players and their match ups. Wigs and LeBron should be able to work a monster offense together since both can drive the ball and finish at the rim, both can hit the outside shot. The defense can’t be everywhere… so how do you stop those guys when they are on the floor together? Wigs is quickly playing like a young, healthy DWade. He’s a long ways from DWade’s skill set, but he is making up ground with his athleticism.
Wigs still isn’t great handling the ball, but he is improving… and they are starting to realize he’s a better player when he receives the ball while in motion… something Self should have taken advantage of but couldn’t in his rigid offense.
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I guess some think Wiggins sucks ???
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@DoubleDD watching this does not get old. hopefully this is a game people point back to and say “remember when…”
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More evidence that Wiggins would have been more valuable than Love … Now there’s talk of the loss of Love being addition by subtraction for the Cavs D, helping them to the 2 0 lead they have over the Hawks. So again, why not acquire an interior defender like Mozgov instead of trading for Love?
http://espn.go.com/blog/cleveland-cavaliers/post/_/id/967/cavs-revamped-d-has-hawks-on-the-ropes
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@approxinfinity I have to agree. I have said all along that this trade will hurt them in the long run.
You can’t blame a team that can get a top 5 big man for a player who hasn’t proved himself yet. But Lebron has maybe 3 years at most to dominate competition. And with Love, they were never guaranteed more than one year with him.
If they kept Wiggins, they might not be as good this year but imagine what would happen in 5 years? Because of their win now philosophy, James might get one championship rather than 2 or 3. He could have been an excellent third option in years and rode Irving and Wiggins for more championships.
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“More evidence that Wiggins would have been more valuable than Love …”
If Wigs stays healthy and keeps building his game (why shouldn’t he?)… the real evidence that Wigs shouldn’t have been traded for Love will become apparent in years to come. Wigs may reach superstar status and hold that title for a decade or longer. And where will Love be? He’ll be chomping popcorn on the couch and drawing a salary for not playing because he is injured or just too many hits and can’t compete.
I said it then, I’ll say it now… that was the biggest bonehead GM move ever since “The Fatal Pick” when the Trailblazers picked Bowie over Jordan.
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@drgnslayr but… Wigs is better off where he is now!! I don’t care about the cavs!
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A million times better off! F$&% being in the playoffs but having to take orders from both coaches and an inflated-ego player!
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Just throwing this out there
What if the Cavs and LeBron do win a championship this year? Forget Love would LeBron come back?
In all reality LeBron would be off the hook with his Cleveland background and connection. He could say, “I came back”, “I won you a championship”. Now I’m taking my ball and going somewhere else.
It my be a reach on my part, but it’s not unthinkable. LeBron maybe the best basketball player to lace them up in sometime, but he’s also a business man. He’ll want to maximize his brand and earnings while he’ll still can. LeBron maybe good for Cleveland but Cleveland may not be good for LeBron.
Besides he left the Cavs once, he could do it again. Remember he basically signed a year to year contract.
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@DoubleDD The Cav’s are short handed and short benched. Lebron is basically willing this team to win on his own. The Warriors on the other hand, have the MVP and a very deep team. I dont doubt Lebrons skills at all, I just doubt him being able to single handedly get past the Warriors for the title this year. Well, if Kyrie plays and he is 100%, it might be different. Either way, Warriors win in 7 games. Then, would the loss give Lebron an excuse to bail for Idk, say teaming up with Kevin Durant and Westbrook somewhere else? Both those two are nearing free agency as well.
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I am still more than somewhat dumbfounded by the numbers posted by, and the success of, Andrew Wiggins this season. Of course, good fortune had lots to do with it, as his body held up remarkably. But the best thing that could have happened for him was to escape Coach James and Co. Cleveland might very well win a title with James, perhaps even two if he should decide to stay in town for a spell. I feel certain that Wiggins would not have developed his current stats, experience and confidence if he had stayed within the hub of the current Cavs system. Now Andrew is a rising star in his very own right, away from the spectacle and domination of LeBron. Not to denigrate LeBron’s talent as a player, because I view him as the #1 Player on Planet Earth right now. But he is a dominating force, even among his own program. Wiggins was set free to soar. He is currently spoken of as very possibly the future Jordan or James. Rare air.
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@REHawk @Crimsonorblue22 I appreciate the perspective. Just seeking to discredit the decision-making process by Cleveland. They sought defense - they traded a solid defender (and capable scorer) for one of the arguably worst interior defenders in the league. He gets hurt and they start clicking. And if hte media goes so far as to say that they are better defensively because he’s out, and that’s what they need at this juncture, I’d like them to drop the other foot and acknowledge that the Wiggins trade was a mistake for Cleveland.
I totally agree that Minnesota is better for Wiggins. But I’d like to see Gilbert and LeBron take some heat for making a short-sighted decision. I’ve never been a fan of James, nor Gilbert, and I’d like to see them humbled.
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@approxinfinity A picture of a humbled LeBron James is something which we will never see. It’s not in his makeup. Gilbert on the other hand is an idiot and idiots generally don’t see their failures.
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I’ve never had a problem with the Cavs before… but after Dellavedova cheap shots the Cavs to the Finals… I’ve definitely started to dislike them. He is clearly rolling guys onto the disabled list intentionally. What he does isn’t even legal in the NFL.
Horford is a legit player. Legit players never know how to retaliate. He should have pulled a Marcus Smart flop and thrown his own legs out and then landed his entire body on Dellavedova’s head. He would have gone to the foul line and made a point about taking guys’ legs out.
You won’t see Dellavedova around in the league long. Not now. He’s going to receive plenty of cheap shots from experienced guys who know how to do it while drawing a foul in the process. Amazing how it just so happened against the only real offensive threat Atlanta had.
There is an unwritten rule everywhere in basketball. You leave players’ legs alone. And another rule… if you go after players’ legs then everyone goes after you.
I’d like to sign up for Atlanta and show Dellavedova the right way to roll a leg… What a scumbag.
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@drgnslayr I disagree man. I just watched the replay a few times of that particular incident. Della was just boxing out and going for the ball, he had his eyes on it the whole time while Horford was holding his left arm and pulling down until Della trips over Demarre Carroll on the ground and rolls into Horford. I really dont think it was intentional at all. I didnt see the other plays he was involved, but this time it was all incidental contact. There was no foul on his part.
I mean, I don’t particularly care about who wins the series. Im not biased towards either the Hawks or Cavs so Im just saying this based on what the tape shows.
Although, truth be told, Id rather the Hawks win it so my Dubs can have an easier time winning the finals.
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Horford is a super mellow guy. He doesn’t throw elbows. But he did, because Dellavedova continued his roll, reaching for his legs. You really have to see what Dellavedova did in the other playoff game. It was a different version of the same thing.
Playing at this level… these guys are skilled. The play Dellavedova pulled on Horford is more a possibility with less athletic players. But at this level, plays like that, players can guard from rolling on another players’ legs (in many instances). This was one of those. Instead of intentionally pulling up short, he actually lunged from his legs to bring himself into contact with Horford. Like I said above, Horford isn’t a guy who goes off like that… not without provocation.
The big puzzle is why Dellavedova received a technical foul? So the refs acknowledge his cheap shot, and because it didn’t disable Horford it only draws a technical foul? Dellavedova said very little after getting up, and if it was bad enough to draw a technical we would have seen it inflame Horford.
What he does is legal. Going for the ball. It’s just without ethics. But the NBA has plenty capabilities to “self-correct” and you’ll see that happen, perhaps even in the Finals. Look how effective Dellavedova was last night. He took their big offense right out of the game, in a game that still went to overtime.
Come on, we are talking about Cleveland. City with no self esteem. City with bad cops and even worse offenders. They are going to do whatever they can to win one. To break the curse. A curse held by all their sports teams. This has just a little bit of that same feeling that the Detroit Pistons went through to finally break their curse. Same low esteem city. Dirty play.
I spent quite a bit of time in Cleveland many years ago. I get what LeBron is trying to do. He’s trying to help lift the esteem of his town. They can definitely use it!
I don’t care about either one of these teams.
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@drgnslayr If Horford really wanted to hurt Dellavedova, he could have “lost his balance” and landed on his head. In the Friday incident with Korver the angle shown most often shows what appears to be a complete accident. The replay that was shown from the back showed that Dellavedova was either trying to hurt him or he really didn’t care.
Dellavedova only stays in the league because of his hustle. His 3pt shot isn’t bad but that can be said about a lot of players. We will probably see more of this until someone rearranges his teeth.
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This isn’t the first time for Horford. While I think he has a conscience I also think he’s prone to episodes of in-the-moment competitive sociopathy (ics).
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@drgnslayr You’re right man, I saw him push off with his feet too. Even if he didnt push off, he was still headed in that same direction, contact with Horford below the thighs was inevitable at that point. Maybe he was trying to slide into the fall instead of landing solid on his behind?
I dont know about the other instances, I never saw them. Im just not sold on Della intentionally trying to hurt Horford. If he did, shame on him and Lebron for defending him.
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Thanks for sharing the video.
That’s a play where the league needs to step in and hammer down on these guys for the hard foul. This has gone on forever. Play the ball while smacking down hard on a guy to prevent the “and one.”
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@drgnslayr Agreed. That foul was the beginning of the end of TJ Ford’s career, right when he was firing on all cylinders. He was never the same, and it was a damn shame. Horford did visit him in the hospital after the game, but damage done.
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Isn’t this the third incident for Dellavedova in the last few games? One is accidental, two is coincidence but three is a trend.
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Ford had a history of injuries. He had spinal fusion surgery as a rookie after an awkward fall. That surgery basically meant that any fall on his tailbone could end his career.
He had previously contemplated retirement after missing an entire season due to spinal surgery and some resulting stingers in the years after that. He was also born with spinal stenosis (narrowing of the spinal column) making him more at risk for neck/spine injuries.
Not excusing Horford here, but if that is any player other than TJ Ford, it probably doesn’t turn out quite that way. That’s what made the play above so scary - knowing that was TJ Ford and knowing that given his history and condition, that play could put him in a wheelchair.
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@REHawk said:
He is currently spoken of as very possibly the future Jordan or James. Rare air.
WTF? What are you on? Future Jordan or James? i’m so shocked i literally have no words
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@elpoyo Easy there killer. Just stating his opinion.
Now considering Jordan and Lebron are top 5 to ever play this game, I would have to agree that Wiggins won’t be on the same level. But considering the last half of the season where Wiggins put up 25 points consistently, his young age, winning ROY award, and once in a lifetime athleticism, no one can rule out how great he can become.
Way to start your posting here man.
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“That’s a play where the league needs to step in and hammer down on these guys for the hard foul. This has gone on forever. Play the ball while smacking down hard on a guy to prevent the “and one.””
What really sucks is that the hard foul on the break away is all about saving 1 friggin’ point. A guy ends his career over 1 friggin’ point!
I know it was different back in the hayday of the Detroit Pistons. Those fouls were handed out like candy because they sent a message saying “anything close to the goal is going to cost you!”
Those days of basketball are over. Surely the league is smart enough and capable enough today to stop games from going off like they did back then… huge team brawls on the court and near locker rooms.
So today, it is all about trying to save 1 friggin’ point. Why doesn’t the league make their own point about the hard foul and start slapping huge fines on players? I’m cool with the flagrant 1 and 2 (when called consistently) and then levying huge fines for aggressive fouls that can hurt players.
