Tubby and Tech give KU the Big 12
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I still believe ISU is over-rated.
I tip my hat to the Mayor though. He gets every ounce of delivery out of the players he has… but this is NOT the quality of team they had last year, or even close. They have to count a lot more on Niang this year, and he looks just a bit slower after his injury.
The Mayor really is a fabulous coach. I’d take him in a second. Imagine what he could do if he was bringing in top tier talent? The guy knows how to execute a plan with the talent pool of a mid-major. If he can ever recruit near our level… we are truly in trouble.
That is my bittersweet assessment of the Cyclones. Very fun team to watch, and a team capable of beating anyone… but they were exposed at TT. And praise to the players they do have.
In some odd ways, they remind me of Wichita State. They take from the same talent pool and play to their potential.
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Oh come on? Are you that bored that you would stir the pot over someone using the term “the most”? What is this called?? Extremism.
How many times have you been watching a KU game or a highlights of a game and said to yourself or someone that is “the best” play I’ve ever seen? We’ve “all” done it.
However most likely it’s not the best play you’ve ever seen or in this case why Wiggins isn’t really “the most”.
It’s called living in the moment. It’s hard to compare apples to oranges. Some were lucky enough to watch Wilt play, but what about those that didn’t? Are they wrong to make a claim that’s “the best” player, or That’s the most talented player? As they are living in the moment, and imprinting their minds and their being with what they are seeing, and feeling. Which is the most talented and so on.
Just my two cents
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So, you are basing your entire opinion on Wiggins on the Stanford game? I sure would hate to be judged for the occasional bad day or two I have at the office and not for all the other outstanding ones. BTW, Wiggins did not cost KU the Stanford game, paint play did. These are the paint numbers
Stanford Game:
- Perry 3-10, 9 points, 8 rebounds. 2 fouls in 26 minutes
- Traylor 1-8, 3 points, 5 rebounds, 3 fouls in 25 minutes
- Black 6-8, 12 points, 5 rebounds, 5 fouls in 23 minutes
Combined 10-26 (38,4%), 24 points 18 rebounds in 74 minutes.
And most of those misses were what is commonly referred as “bunnies” i.e. shots with a couple of feet of the basket. In comparison, these are the numbers for the previous game:
- Perry 6-11, 14 points, 13 rebounds, 2 fouls in 34 minutes
- Traylor 7-8, 17 points, 14 rebounds, 2 fouls in 22 minutes
- Black 6-8, 16 point, 6 rebounds, 3 fouls in 26 minutes
Combined 19-27 (70.4%), 47 points, 33 rebounds in 82 minutes.
Can you see where the problem was? KU’s bigs did not match up with Stanford height and bulk inside and once Tarik fouled out KU had no inside game. It did not make any difference how well Stanford played Wiggins, if KU bigs played anywhere near their season averages, this games is not even close; had they made just 2 of the many bunnies they missed, KU wins.
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Regarding the rest of the Big 12. Just win baby. Take care of business and then we don’t need to cheer when one of our challengers absorbs another loss.
Regarding Wiggins, I barely think of him as a Jayhawk. I wish it were different, but with all of the obvious talent was an air of he doesn’t care that much.
@drgnslayr Agree on Hoiberg. I like him more than any other coach in our league. I wonder if he’ll get lured away to some more glamourous job someday? I hope not.
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@wissoxfan83
Congrats on a tough OT win at Michigan!
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I watched the Texas-WVU game and between Felix and Taylor they ripped Huggy’s full court press a new one, and after they broke the full court press, they had easy basket and the Texas bigs had a field day inside; Texas won by 27. Mason and Graham are even better than the Texas back-court and I don’t see much of a problem with WVU if KU uses a similar game plan.
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I thought we just didn’t come ready to play Stanford. We didn’t bring the energy.
Had we brought the energy we brought yesterday, we would have shown more movement and we would have been able to open up Stanford’s defense. And we can shoot over height if we play with speed (energy) because little guys can always create scoring space if there is enough floor space.
Lack of energy pretty much sinks us in probably ALL of our losses. It ends up reducing our scoring space. Crisp passing is not enough to open up scoring space. It takes crisp passes and fast legwork. Self often talks about the ball sticking… but is it the ball or our guys just not hustling with their feet?
There isn’t a defense played where space can’t be achieved. In zones, it is attacking the gaps and help create bigger gaps. In M2M it usually requires properly run screens.
This is a question for @Jesse-Newell :
Is there a tool that can take the video screen of a game and plot the motion of the offense? I bet if there is a way to do this, we can quickly discover that our floor speed relates to wins and losses.
We often clam up at tournament time. Most of the time we lose, you can already tell we might lose in the first few minutes because out guys look slow.
We looked fast yesterday! This has nothing to do with a team playing “sped up”… that is a term for a team mentally speeding up and rushing their offense.
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@JayHawkFanToo Man, I like the way you think! I keep having flashbacks from games last year…namely, last year’s Florida, Nova, Colorado, Eastern Kentucky games…etc, where the slightest on ball perimeter pressure made us fold up like a cheap pup tent last year…
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The back-court difference between last season and this season is HUGE!
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@JayHawkFanToo Ain’t it sweet? I have not seen our offense percolate like that in years…those drives in the middle with the Frank/Devonte dump off passes to Cliffie for the slam were like a work of art.
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I always say that basketball is all about match ups and unfortunately KU did not match up well with Stanford, in the same way that we don’t match up well with ISU…and it is big problem, not only for KU, but for many other elite teams (ask Duke) in March as well.
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@KUSTEVE besides diving on lose balls, a sweet pass is a favorite of mine. Devonte had an exceptionally sweet pass to Cliff! Text book!
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I thought we just didn’t come ready to play Stanford. We didn’t bring the energy.
But…do you think Wiggins was the reason we lost the Stanford game? I certainly do not.
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@drgnslayr Thanks, we really didn’t play that well except for Frank the Tank who ought to be the poster child for Kelly and Cliff and any others thinking of going pro. Frank said at the beginning of the season that the NBA is boring. “Who wants to go play in a half empty gym in Charlotte when you can play in packed houses in the big 10 and other places” is what he also said.
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“But…do you think Wiggins was the reason we lost the Stanford game? I certainly do not.”
No… I put more emphasis on the way our team used Wigs as a crutch. We escaped from being a team and having Wigs on the team enabled the other guys to loaf. We were never a team… nothing like the feel for our current group, which definitely has team energy. All our current guys feel they are personally responsible for winning and losing.
Wigs did his best for the situation. He wasn’t going to beat Stanford single-handed.
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@icthawkfan316 Excellent post on Andrew Wiggins. An excellent player for the Kansas Jayhawks that will payoff for years to come in recruiting. It appears he is on his way to a solid NBA Career. I am glad he spent a year at KU along the way.
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I was at the Stanford game. Wiggins tried to get going. He was called for traveling on at least 3 occasions. He actually scored on two of those possessions. Basket was waved off both times. It appears that the board has spoken. We love Wiggins. We are glad he is a Jayhawk. We look forward to his return in support of the program. We enjoyed the many memories he gave us in a Kansas Uniform. Can’t wait until we get another one!
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@JayHawkFanToo When ISU comes into AFH, KU will destroy them. We owe them one, big time! Its a revenge game for KU in the single most toughest place to play in Div 1. Did I mention we will destroy ISU? We absolutely do match up well with ISU this year.
As @jaybate-1.0 @jaybate-2.0 pointed out, KU has two centers that run the court and are finding their pace mid way through the conference. KU also has 5 guys that can shoot the trey at > 40% KU has never had that many shooters. KU also has two of the best point guards in the big 12. It wont be a contest, KU will destroy ISU. AND, if they end up playing for the conference tourney championship, KU will do it again.
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@JayHawkFanToo I can save you a lot of time. No, I am not basing my opinion on Wiggins on one game. Never said it. Never have said it. It was an example directed at @Crimsonorblue22 who said Wiggins was the “most”.
The problem in the Stanford game was our game plan, and how we attacked the zone. It is easy to be blinded by the success of one post player – perhaps the one they saw as the lowest threat. Of course, those “bunnies” you refer to were significantly challenged. There is a major difference between an unchallenged “bunny” and a challenged one, as we have seen with Ellis this season. Are you really arguing that “missed shots” thing again?
I always love that simplistic analysis. Stanford was 0-9 from three. If Stanford had just hit two of those threes, they would have really kicked our a**.
There’s a clear connection to this season, and exactly what we’ve seen succeed … and fail. Pound it inside. We we overmatched against Stanford inside. You note the mismatch. They were too big and active for us without Embiid. We used our normal post feed attack against a bad match up. It is really that simple. And your acknowledgment of the mismatch inside leads to the obvious conclusion that our post feed attack was misplaced. That loss lays squarely in coach Self’s lap.
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"We love Wiggins. "
Right on! But I would hope when we sign the next Wigs Self has learned to make a better situation out of it. He formed guys around him but we needed to be a team. There wasn’t even responsibility on this team. The focus was all on Wigs and JoJo… then JoJo was out and it was all on Wigs. The other guys went soft. I never want to have those same team dynamics, and if we can’t become a real team with the super duper star, I’m afraid we should pass on the next one. The most important aspect is team ball. It’s a team sport and you can’t win without a team concept. We really didn’t have a team concept. It wasn’t Wigs fault at all. I thought he did a lot to help bridge the gap. Maybe he avoided some contact to keep the franchise body intact. Okay… but he still put energy into being a teammate. The coaches really demanded that he be an “alpha dog” and that became translated as being a bull hog and not looking for the assist.
Wigs was pushing his drives so hard he usually couldn’t even maintain his dribble or the handle on the ball. The last thing he could do was feed the assist in that situation. He was strung way way way too tight!
Does everyone think he suddenly developed dribbling and handling skills now in the league? Ha… He is playing much better because he is with handlers that know how to maximize his talent. Even though he is “the man” for his team, they have helped him get his mind right and they have relieved the stress on him finishing at the hole. Suddenly he is free to just finish, whether it is at the rim or with a pull up. Just that one tweak has suddenly given him much better handles!
I think Wigs will remember KU as a positive year in his life, and he will always be a great Jayhawk! He’s an outstanding young man that is on the right track. I just wish we would have better capitalized on his one year by not trying to force him into either hitting 3s or taking it all the way to the rack. Yes… he made it to the FT line often. But we didn’t maximize our return and neither did he.
This is just my humble opinion and I understand that many won’t see it the same way.
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Self is a great coach! He’s a college coach, not a pro coach. The skill set is completely different in college coaching than pro coaching.
College coaching is more about the discipline of focusing on just a few areas of the game. Teaching some philosophical aspects, too. The players are young, and coaches only have a short time to get these young players playing team ball. So many aspects of the game are cut out because coaches want their teams to master just certain areas. #1 is playing team basketball.
Pro coaching is more about finding whatever way it takes to win. A lot more goes into exploiting other teams based on match-ups. Seasons and practices almost consume the entire year. Many of the players have been around for a decade or so. They already bring a certain level of play with them (or learn it quickly). So the focus can go wider and it does… often to tweaks upon tweaks, especially tailored specifically for each team.
The great ones, like Jordan, often commented about how relieved they were to make it to the pros… when the shackles came off their games and they were set free to dominate. Wigs is one of those guys. He isn’t restricted by Self’s system anymore. He’s been set free. And like Jordan, he will rule the game, in his own way.
But we shouldn’t take that as a strike against Self. Self has to succeed in his world of limitations. He is doing something right… just look at his record. And if you want to criticize him for this, then also criticize Dean Smith for holding Jordan back. It was the same situation then.
It helps us all to understand these things… because Self and Wiggins are bound to be permanently enshrined in their appropriate HOFs. And we are fortunate to have experienced their paths crossing.
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@drgnslayr I can remember a lot of attention on Wiggins and deservedly so. He was the number 1 prospect and he did not disappoint. He made plays and contributed to the team. He has participated in camps in support of the program since his departure. He did the best he could do. Maybe not the way you wanted him to do it, but he did the best he could do in support of the program and that is good enough for me. We are not going to win the Championship every year. What we are every year, is competitive. If not for injuries to Selden and Embiid, who knows? Selden played through injury and put up quite a fight. Big XII Champions again last year. We lost in the tournament, oh well. Since 1985 there have only been a few teams to win 4 Championships. We have two. We have appeared in 5 National Championship games since 1985. We have one hell of a program. I am proud of every single Jayhawk player and coach that has helped make our program great. To say that Andrew Wiggins was a ball hog is just plain wrong. He was instructed to shoot more by his coach. I hope we get another player of his caliber next year. Rock Chalk!
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I disagree…but then, it would not be Monday if we did not. The shots that KU missed inside were called “bunnies” by everybody that covered the game, both during and after the game; maybe you need a refresher on what a “bunny” is. In any case, this is the type of shot that, guarded or not, Perry and Traylor converted at a high clip during the season (Perry 54.9%, Traylor 67.4%, Black 69.2%) but at the Stanford game (38.4%) they were close to one half their average. For the game Stanford shot 44.7% which was right on its season average of 45.9% while KU shot 32.8% which was way below its season average of 49,.3%.
As far as Stanford missing 3 points, this is from the ESPN Recap after the game:
"We can make 3s but that’s not what we rely on," Dawkins said. "I didn’t even notice it because that’s not what we’ve been."
On the other hand, KU had solid paint game, both scoring and percentage wise but played well below par and it clearly showed. KU just had a bad shooting day, aprticularly in the paint, while Stanford played at its usual level. BTW, Coach Self did not take a single shot that day, so you can’t really blame that on him. According to you:
When KU loses:
- It’s Perry’s fault. Check
- It’s Selden’s Fault. Check
- Jamari should not be playing Division I basketball. Check
- Coach Self did not follow game plan as outlined by HEM at KUBuckets, so it’s most of all Coach Self’s fault. Check
When KU wins:
- The other team played poorly. Check
- The other team was over matched. Check
- KU got lucky. Check
- The other coach is worse than Self. Check
- It is hard even for Coach Self to lose at AFH. Check
- Don’t know how in the world KU won on the road but it is not because of Coach Self’s game plan. Check
- Coach Self spent hours reading KUBuckets and followed HEM’s advice. Check
Nothing new here people. Move along.
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@JayHawkFanToo You are perhaps one of the most intellectually dishonest posters I have ever seen – now, that may be by commission, or omission. I’m guessing that it’s more omission, which is another way to say lazy or uninformed. You obviously don’t read what I write, and perhaps you don’t process it. I’m not sure if you purposely lie, or if you create a false reality for yourself.
One thing is for certain, you never break anything down and you don’t analyze anything.
Seriously, when have I ever explained away a KU win by saying, "the other team played poorly’? Or the “other team was over matched”? Or “KU got lucky”? Or “it is hard even for coach Self to lose in AFH”? Or not “crediting Self’s game plan”? Or that he “followed” my “advice” and thus won?
The only opposing coach I have really criticized over the years is Scott Drew.
It is your little world, kind of what you wish or imagine happens, disconnected from the truth. But it’s easy.
It is also comical how you equate guarded shots to non-guarded shots. Simplistically comical. As if open shots are no different than guarded shots. Your citation defines a bunny as “An open, uncontested shot, usually a layup or dunk.” There is a distinct difference. And no, that’s not saying we didn’t miss some open looks. Stanford did too. It’s again funny how you bold quote Dawkins. Missing the point. The point is they shot 36% from three for the year … if just 2 go in, or on their percentage, 3, they thump us, whether that’s their game or not. They could lament missed shots just like us.
But in this game, the scheme issues were quite obvious. Contrast to the Michigan loss, where scheme was really of no issue.
Here’s a quote from an article after the game “Conner Frankamp had an impressive showing in consecutive games to conclude his freshman season. He hit two huge threes at the end of the first half. Despite that, and despite playing extremely well on Friday, Self only played him 7 minutes in the second half, mostly during desperation mode. Frankamp again hit two huge threes, giving KU a chance when the game was seemingly over. KU tried to run a play to get him a three at the end, but Stanford read it well, and it was off the mark. When I asked Bill Self why he went with less Frankamp in the second half, he said, “We had to get inside their defense and they’re big. When you play Conner and play with another guard, that puts him guarding a 6’7” guy. And they exploited that a little bit. No reason, other than the fact that Frank (Mason), from a pace standpoint, gave us a better chance to get inside of the defense, which he did.”
Self also said after the game: “They’re long. We don’t go against very many teams that are bigger than us,” Kansas Coach Bill Self said. So, what do long teams do? What do big teams do? Particularly, to Ellis and Traylor? I assume you also watched this season.
Form another article: “A stifling defense and the commanding presence of Stanford’s towering frontcourt appeared to rattle Kansas, which shot 32.8 percent from the floor.”
And here’s what Self said, "Jamari Traylor, a reserve who had 17 points and 14 rebounds in the Jayhawks’ win over Eastern Kentucky on Friday, scored 3 points and was 1 of 8 from the field. “We didn’t attack their zone well, which happens when you’re not playing confidently,” Self said. “And when we did get inside, we had to contend with a 6-10 guy and a 6-11 guy.”
So, Self knew they were one of the biggest teams we faced, and long. Yet his strategy was to get the ball “inside their defense”?
Seriously, is this really that difficult? Yea, we had to contend with a 6-10 and 6-11 guy.
This was an epic failure. You, however, are blinded by all of the internal organs in your eyes, with your nose squarely up Self’s backside. It is your preferred view.
Your analysis of the Stanford game is “we missed shots.” Bravo. Quite astute.
Bill Self champions field goal percentage defense as one of his most important stats. That’s because, he knows, a team can really affect that based on how they defend. It is a coach’s job to scheme to find open looks. Wiggins said after the game that he felt there were always 2 or 3 guys around him when he had the ball.
Of course, Greg Anthony (the color buy, I believe) observed during the game that KU was not moving Wiggins around to get him more open looks, brilliantly observing that Self should consider moving him to the high post for some pick and pop looks.
It is comical how you rationalize losses to missed shots, while trumpeting Self’s record continuously, based presumably on made shots. Self didn’t take any of those shots. The reality is, Self gets as much credit for scheme and game plan, related to his wins, as he does for the losses.
Of course, coach Self agrees with you – “Stanford did a good job with its zone,” Jayhawks coach Bill Self said, “but it wasn’t like we didn’t expect to see it. We just couldn’t make shots.”
Right, couldn’t make shots. Totally out of Self’s control. Completely. Just sit like a block of concrete on the sidelines, run our stuff, adjustments be damned. But maybe not … like the last two games vs OU and Texas, as I posted. Self made the right moves. His decisions late won us those games.
I heard Seth Greenberg talking after the Stanford game, just before their next round game. He said that Stanford had the perfect game plan. He also said that they took away Wiggins, and funneled the game to the post where they had a big size advantage. I made notes on it I still have.
Where I come from, this sort of exchange is quite plainly game, set and match.
Yet, for some reason, I think you won’t even realize it.
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Maybe a tad bit harsh for my taste, but I agree with a lot of your points. I have always enjoyed your analysis and somewhat fair judgment of HCBS.
I feel as though your perception of Wigs is a little off. He was at first “selfish” but that turned into “offensively selfish”. But isn’t that impossible to compartmentalize? Name one extremely hard working, unselfish defender who is just trying to get his own on offense? You mentioned Tayler as being selfish yet worked hard on D. But if you remember his first 3 years, he may have gotten some steals but almost NEVER worked hard off the ball to deny his man or to make the opposing player catch it a few feet outside to where he was comfortable. Even in the beginning of his Senior year, that was a major problem (ex. against Duke in the final two minutes. Got screened, didn’t fight hard over, and jogged to his man on the wing. The result was a killer 3). Sure he would get his steals, but not like Wigs who would deny, push the defender out, and fight over screens. Little things that don’t show up in the stat sheet shows how hard someone works on D. It’s the equivalent to a post taking pride in good solid screens or a wing boxing out the shooter knowing that he won’t get the rebound, but is making sure his man won’t.
As stated above, Self told him to shoot. His usage of him may not have bolded well for the team but I don’t blame wigs. How many times did we here Self say in a postgame interview “Andrew had a good night but he only got 11 shots. If he puts up 15 or 16, then we are talking about a great night”. Damned if he tried to force his will on the team and damned if he pass the ball up.
Second, you reference 2 key aspects of Wigs game that are good points but I believe you came out with the wrong conclusion. The first of which is that you never saw him go after a loose ball Like Oubre. But this is a mentality that some people have naturally and some have to learn. As I have said before, Self always talks about players simply not knowing how to play hard but it doesn’t mean that the player is intentionally not playing his hardest. Look at Cliff this year and Embiid last year. It took some butt chewing for them to figure out how to play hard. Give Wigs another year and we see a different player. The other one was his lack of dishing after he beat his man. This again doesn’t mean he is selfish but hasn’t learned to pass when he is in attack mode. Mason last year drove us ALL crazy for this reason. I don’t believe very many of us would call Mason selfish. The ability to take a two hard dribbles, stop, and get the open man the ball is a new concept for many players who are used to scoring 30 a game in high school. Again, give him another year in a Jayhawks uniform and we would see a different player.
How Self used him is definitely up for criticism. But to call him selfish for getting his shots and in the same breath criticize him “checking out” of the Stanford game with only 6 shots seems backwards.
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And sorry numerous grammatical errors. Like “here” instead of “hear”. I am in a hurry but that is nonetheless inexcusable! MBA was for nothing I guess!
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Wow, you are really getting personal now.
I was going to post a long, detailed reply…but what good will it do? I will not change how you think or the condescending tone of your posts, so I will take the high road and not waste your time or more importantly mine and not bore to the death the other forum members, and as a bonus, I will not get my hand slapped by @approxinfinity.
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@JhawkAlum Thanks for the response. I do not criticize Wiggins at all for Stanford. The sole purpose of pointing out his performance to @Crimsonorblue22 was the conundrum … if Wiggins was “the most”, or moderating a bit, “close to the most”, then players that are “the most” show up on those days. However, I don’t think Wiggins was “the most” of anything, except overhyped. And I don’t criticize him for his performance vs. Stanford as I said at the time. They schemed to stop him. Wiggins was really a guy that was misplaced in our style of play, and had ridiculously high expectations that were none of his doing.
Actually, I recall being perhaps the only one to dedicate a full topic to everything positive about Andrew Wiggins Why Wiggins Won Me Over
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...Red pill or blue pill...
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@JayHawkFanToo @HighEliteMajor guys… “Ignore”. It’s not just a button! (it’s not a button at all in this forum format, in fact. Let’s get analog!)
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@MoonwalkMafia watching Miles shoot Tx out of game with 3-balls in 1st half. Pretty ugly and unnecessary.
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@Bwag Still Watching?
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@bskeet nice come back! To little to late. We need to take care of business!!
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Wow…that was a wild finish…
