Who is responsible?
Who is responsible?
Who is responsible for bringing the team ready to play basketball?
Can’t we summarize everything into that single question? There were no areas of this game we played well in and there was no energy. How can that be?
I’ve always attacked this issue. I don’t mind losing games. I do mind when the team doesn’t show up. That was humiliating… and I believe it is games like this one that kill our recruiting. I know I wouldn’t send my son off to a school who decides sometimes not to show up. This is a character flaw. Plain and simple.
I wonder… how much fundraising does Bill Self do? It sort of feels like politics in Washington… where our elected officials spend most of their time fundraising instead of working.
When I see a team that appeared to be so disconnected to their coach, I wonder about this. When I see a team that can’t muster up energy for a screaming coach, there is a disconnect. Coaches that eat, breath and sleep with their players can’t help but be connected. Everyone is in one boat. I don’t see that.
This is what bothers me most about Kansas basketball. Games where we don’t show up. That doesn’t register with me. It’s not a part of my DNA. I’ve played in over 1000 organized games of basketball (at a far lower talent level) and I can honestly say that I have never played on a team that didn’t show up for a game. I would have been arrested last night if I was on that Jayhawk team because I would have physically assaulted some of those around me. I wouldn’t accept that kind of humiliation. Ever.
@drgnslayr I feel the same. There’s no shame in losing a game where you bust your butt and give it your all. Unfortunately, most of our losses in recent years have been like last night. No shows.
Either that, or build a giant lead and stop playing. Watch it disappear. I only watched 8 minutes of humiliation last night, but from what I can see, Frank Mason is the only player out there that is even trying.
I don’t know what to think any more. Bill Self’s record says that he is one of the best. Period. More and more I’m wondering how that’s possible.
His teams don’t seem prepared or motivated…
And it pisses me off. If I can’t say that, someone can edit it for me.
@drgnslayr - I thought I was done, but you got my blood boiling now. (Well, not you - but thinking about what you said)
What we’ve discussed so far is the reason that I’ve always had that nagging voice in the back of my mind telling me that I really miss Roy. (Call me blasphemous, I don’t care) Nobody can tell me that Roy didn’t have the “fire” when he was here. Yeah, Yeah, I know BS has the NC. Big whoop. Thank Sherron and Mario, not BS.
What KU fan didn’t like it when Roy’s face turned 6 shades of red and then he threw off his jacket and started yelling? Substituted all 5 players when they were dogging it and let the bench-riders give it a whirl.
Very few of Roy’s teams showed up in a coma like the two blowout losses we’ve seen this year. And actually, some of the wins we’ve had this years have been snoozefests too. Or at least they’ve been way too close for the talent disparity between teams.
Dang you @drgnslayr - I was perfectly content watching my Hallmark Christmas movies last night, sticking my head in the sand and pretending that we don’t have REAL issues with this team.
drgnslayr last edited by drgnslayr
Sorry about that!
Maybe this is one of those games where Self “throttled down” the troops, as @jaybate-1.0 used to say.
I really don’t get it. Games like this one go against my DNA. My blood boils and I’m ready to erupt into a violent rage. I’m having to watch my blood pressure these days. It was blowing off the charts last night, and still this morning when I awoke from my restless sleep.
MoonwalkMafia last edited by
@drgnslayr I’m with ya buddy. I played I’ve played baseball for 25 years, and I only know how to play it one way. With determination.
I think the kids were just ready to go home for the break. That was a terrible loss to a miserably awful team. That game reminded me of TCU. We weren’t without energy, we were lobotomized, apathetic, whatever you want to call it.
The frustrating thing is that there isn’t much to gripe over from a schematic point of view. What is frustrating is that we seriously struggle make layups. Our bigs can’t score at the rim. Another thing is I saw Wayne commit some of the worst fouls I’ve ever seen. Time running down on the shot clock, Temple throws up a prayer, and Wayne fouls the shooter. Just awful.
Very few team beat Roy’s team in the second half; he always seemed to correct the issues at half time. Maybe I have selective recall and wishful thinking?
@JayHawkFanToo No, I think you’re spot on. And while we’re at it, I don’t remember consistently losing to 10-15 seed teams in the NCAA’s either. We got beat, but they were usually to legit teams. Not always - but usually.
Back then we did not have prima-dona OADs either (I am not saying KU players are that way), so maybe players were more likely to listen and follow instructions. I really don’t like the direction the college game has taken.
The issue with this team is determining a best player and a style.
The most talented player on this team is Kelly Oubre.
The best leader is Wayne Selden Jr.
The guy with the ball and the cajones to take the big shots is Frank Mason III.
The guy we run the offense through is Perry Ellis.
The toughest guy is Cliff Alexander.
Do you see the problem here - we have five guys listed here, but we need one or two of them to step forward and be the main guy or guys.
Coach Self likes to work inside out, but his most talented players offensively are perimeter guys. That has been the case for the last three years (McLemore, Wiggins and now Oubre and Selden). It’s time to just accept that fact and turn the perimeter guys lose. Lose the security blanket of a strong post game and let it fly from the outside.
@justanotherfan big cajones= leader. Not seeing Selden filling that role. Mason has been more consistent, more time on floor. Trying to forget his TO’s! I’m kinda cranky, but not seeing tough from Cliff either. I won’t even say what I’m thinking about Perry, I do like him and think he’ll step up. Oubre’s getting better!
wrwlumpy last edited by
This whole thread sounds like people should get pitch forks, start the fires and storm the castle. Calm down and schedule a meeting with Coach and tell him what he should do, and why you are unhappy with him. Call him on his coaching show and say all of this. Beat your wife and dog and scream off the back porch. This site is a democracy, but wait an extra day before we Hang anyone.
@wrwlumpy I’ve got a pitchfork in one hand and a torch in the other. Could you call Self for me? Thanks !!
nuleafjhawk last edited by nuleafjhawk
@drgnslayr I don’t know a lot about you, but I’ll bet the farm that you feel the same as I do. That you, your brother-in-law, the janitor over at Wal-Mart and any two random neighborhood kids could beat this team right now.
I swear on all that is holy, I feel like that every game. I’m 56 years old, 6’ - 230 and I know in my heart that I could take on any one of these guys and beat them.
Would it happen? No. But I feel like it would. Because I have more heart and determination than they are showing right now. Two things drove me when I played sports.
I *** HATE *** to lose.
I want to win. (But nowhere near as bad as I want NOT to lose.)
I hope this game wakes up some inner demons. Dare I say - we need to " Play Angry " ?
@nuleafjhawk take it back!!! Heart and desire are better!
wissoxfan83 last edited by
I too, like you, have experience at the next level of basketball. I scored two points for the Emmaus Eagles, a tiny college in Iowa that had no gym at the time. So I know what I’m talking about!
Last nights game in one play. Perry (I think) comes down with a board, gets it knocked loose from behind, may have been a foul on them, but that’s immaterial. The ball is on the floor. Jamari (again I think) reaches over to pick the ball up like I reach over to pick up my shoes when my wife nags me to pick them up off the floor. Several other Jayhawks are standing around wondering if they should get involved. They begin to discuss it and decide that Self will applaud their restraint because if they dove in there they might hurt themselves and foul Temple at the same time. Self will be happy for their wisdom.
Temple gets the ball and decides while those Jaybirds are standing around looking nervously at coach whose face is redder than Jayhawk red, that they would push the ball up and score another uncontested basket.
So a Temple team which lost to St. Joseph, which lost to Fairleigh Dickenson )and to Gonzaga by 50), which lost to Columbia, which lost to Stony Brook which lost to Canisius, beats our disinterested team by thirty points or so.
We have the right to be pissed, yes @nuleafjhawk you can say that!
drgnslayr last edited by drgnslayr
I guess we all ate a little turkey yesterday.
I just had to post some dressing for our bird!
“Plenty of sauce, plenty of spice, makes your bird taste nice!”
That comes from my 82 yr old dad, who had he been coaching yesterday would have been chewing on a lot of raw Jayhawk meat on a time-out!
He just called me a few minutes ago to chew me out for not cooking the ham long enough… haven’t even started the ham, I’ll cook it tomorrow… but it wasn’t worth telling him that!
wrwlumpy last edited by wrwlumpy
I was mad last night and I threw my bottle of blood pressure pills at the wall when we missed the front end of all our free throws. That was when we were down 6. I think blame and responsibility can be shared by all. They looked tired, tired, tired. Shots did not fall, Greene played matador, Cliff was a bully in high school but is playing with men and does not block out. All of Perry’s shots fell off the rim. His dejection on the bench at the end of the game tells me he hates to lose. How often on the same day does Manning throw 4 interceptions and Self lose by 25. IT ALL SUCKED!!! Blame will not make us better. Listening to coach and doing it his way has worked and worked well. We are not UK right now. No one is. we’ll get better- WE WILL GET BETTER. I hated my high school coach, but we won 31 straight games. I still hate him. Yes Roy could coach, but remember the fire in Nick when KU lost a bunch before Nick hit his Minivan and dented the door. His next game was the 20+/20+ against Texas with a standing O from Vitale. We’ll find out against Kent State next Tuesday night - you will, I’ll be blacked out by Time Warner, who has the brass family jewels after Xmas practices. Relax for a moment and breathe or you’ll be taking the same blood pressure medicene I do.
We are of a similar size, especially in the heart!
I could never stand losing… even playing pickup ball on my driveway goal. Even as kids, we’d dive for a loose ball on our concrete drive! My mother started saving herself some time by showing us how to bandage our own scrapes.
I feel like you and I and 3 others in here could have taken them last night. Granted… it would have to be a half court game because we couldn’t run up and down the court for more than a minute! I would play in the post, and I wouldn’t let Perry near the lane area.
Frank would have been their big scorer… he’d probably have gone for 50 or 60.
@wrwlumpy “How often on the same day does Manning throw 4 interceptions and Self lose by 25.”
I just read somewhere today that Self has had three 25+ losses in his career at Kansas.
The fact that TWO of those have come this season is really concerning me.
The question is whether Self needs to rethink his recruiting. Recruiting elite wing players is nice, but only if you are going to play through your elite players. Recruiting elite wing players and then having them continuously throw the ball into the post is not the best use of talent. We can recruit a bunch of Brady Morningstar’s to throw the ball into the post.
If Coach Self wants to always run his offense through the post, he should focus all of his energy on recruiting elite interior players. All of the efforts should be directed towards recruiting Rabb, Diallo, Swanigan and Zimmerman. There isn’t much point in recruiting Jaylen Brown or Malik Newman if you aren’t going to let them be who they are - elite perimeter scorers. Better to go land the bigs and fill in with lower rated perimeter players if necessary.
Either that, or we need to focus our offense on the perimeter because that is where our best players are. The lions share of shots should be going to Selden, Oubre, Mason, and Svi. Ellis and Alexander should get touches, but not at the expense of getting those four guys shots (and Brannen Greene if he is playing defense, too). It’s time to unleash the guards and let them play.
KUSTEVE last edited by
We have a bad game, and now we want Roy back? Oh Lordy…lol. I hate getting blown out. I hate losing any game, especially games where we act like we can’t find the arena. But, it is what it is. Remember when you were a kid, and the day before xmas, the excitement built up so much that you could hardly wait for it to get there? Neither can our team. No matter who we blame for this fiasco, we’ll come back and play much better … more focused, more in tune. As for Roy…you’re kidding, right?
KU has been playing lately from the outside in; however, Coach Self cannot eliminate the inside game all together, maybe you don’t use as much as he has in the past but you still have to have it.
@justanotherfan first, wasn’t Embiid expected to stay awhile? I think Self is giving them the green light, they are either cold or their defense is so bad he can’t keep them out there. Not counting dribbling off their foot, or being late to weights-tutoring, etc. Discipline!
@KUSTEVE If you’re talking to me - I didn’t say I wanted him back. I said I liked his “fire”. He could motivate. He didn’t have a bunch of little sissy girl prima donas standing around admiring their credentials. He had floor-divers. His teams out-hustled everyone they played.
Well, you talked me into it. I want him back.
MoonwalkMafia last edited by MoonwalkMafia
Recruiting elite wing players and then having them continuously throw the ball into the post is not the best use of talent.
Phenomenal point. Seriously, great all around post. The thing that sucks after these losses is that good posts get overlooked. One thing that really sucked about this loss is that Zimmerman was talking up KU, and then we go out and lay an egg.
wrwlumpy last edited by wrwlumpy
“Text me with your suggestions.”
Photo provided by Jessie Newell.
Lulufulu last edited by
@drgnslayr I waited for a whole day to respond. For various reasons of course. But, KU did not come to play last night at all. Frank was the only guy out there on the court for KU as far as Im concerned. Yes he made his mistakes on D, but over all he was the only player on the court that came out ready to play for KU. Perry might as well have stayed in Lawrence. Landon and Traylor and Greene too. NONE of our bigs came to play and be competitive. NONE.
Is that on Coach Self and him alone?
Ultimately yes it is. He is in charge. But, I find it hard to believe that he did not try his best to prepare his guys for Temple with less than 24 hrs of prep time. They played saturday, probly traveled to Philly the day after or the day of. They got time to review tape and practice the day before maybe and the day of a little bit. Then ALL of KU’s players just gave zero effort. I saw during time outs how Bill almost popped a cerebral artery trying to get his guys in the game. I dont believe he didnt try. I just dont. But, again, yes ultimately it is on him how bad KU got beat yesterday. I hope he ripped into his guys for how badly they played. I hope he makes them run every step in AFH 3 times over for how bad they played. I hope he makes them shoot 150 FT’s for every missed FT and field goal. I hope he makes them get up at 6 am for a beat down boot camp style.
And who knows, maybe this will open his eyes. Maybe this beat down will tell him, hey we need to quit trying to play inside out and play to this teams strengths. But, clearly they did not have any strengths at all against Temple last night.
I saw the whole game. Again, I am not a basketball coach or x player or anything. But even my laymans knowledge of the game can tell when a team has no toughness. Only Frank came to play last night.
@Lulufulu Almost looked like Mr & Ms finesse danced through the game to me. If Greene wasn’t in the doghouse prior to this one he sure as heck should be now. Reaching for the ball while others are getting floor burns & a defender dunks on you while you looked shocked? Pleeeease. Frank was at the top of his game & the rest just mailed it in. At the 10 min mark I was done.
@drgnslayr IMO but Bill has missed substantially recently in recruiting a lot of not only former (AW III), but present (Nadir,CF. & Perry) players to plug into his “system.” Without Embid, how good would Wigs have really looked at Kansas?Just a though to throw out, but perhaps he’s losing a little bit of his edge, or even a little interest & thinking of greener pastures where recruiting is not an issue? The cupboard’s not completely bare in the frontcourt, but there certainly isn’t the stable of rough stock we’re accustomed to under Self. Maybe somethin’s up guys? What are your thoughts?
I think the comment about selective memory is appropriate here. Are we really questioning Self’s track record here? Look at Texas Southern over Michigan State at home…and that team is coached by “Mr. Toughness” Tom Izzo. It happens folks. The only thing that you can question Self on, in the big picture…in my opinion is the history of early exits to inferior opponents in the tournament. Although I can’t think of any specific examples of lack of effort (long time ago)…Roy’s teams lost plenty of games they shouldn’t have. And I get all the points about being able to handle losses, but not losses that involve lack of effort. This is a young team. Their minds were probably more on going home than they should have been. Temple was playing AT HOME. It is much easier to get pumped at home than on the road. The sky is not falling. We’ve got a great coach. We will have a very successful season. Conference title? Who knows, but we’ll be in the hunt. But if we don’t win ANOTHER conference title…please no pitchforks.
@justanotherfan If I could give you more than one upvote I would.
Maybe HCBS saw UNLV looming at a home date and need a wake up call for his team before they feel too good about themselves.
@nuleafjhawk ‘I’m wondering how that’s possible.’ Amen.
‘His teams don’t seem prepared or motivated.’ Amen to that too.
‘Thank Sherron and Mario, not BS.’
That’s what Coach BS himself did–remember the pre-game speech?
Still speaks volumes…
Oh, and btw, at least Roy’s teams knew how to run a fast break. When Bill’s teams get a fast break, more often than not, they screw it up.
@nuleafjhawk 'consistently losing to 10-15 seed teams in the NCAA’s ’
Hmm, that’s a familiar thread…
‘Without Embid, how good would Wigs have really looked at Kansas?’
You’re kidding, right?
@KUinLA Not really. How hard was it for Stanford to take him out of that game?
Lulufulu last edited by
Maybe HCBS saw UNLV looming at a home date and need a wake up call for his team before they feel too good about themselves.
Good point. They did just beat a very good Arizona team AT their place. If they can beat Arizona, they could throttle KU!
KUinLA last edited by KUinLA
That was actually Bill’s offense that took Wigs out of the game. Stanford was just reacting to what Bill’s team was doing.
I didn’t want to turn this thread into a pitchfork scene, with Bill poked on the stick hanging over the fire.
Bill is a fabulous coach, and I’m grateful he is a Jayhawk!
I just wonder about things.
I know KU basketball is holding up the financial pants of just about all our athletic department. That is a huge load!
I know Zenger and Self are constantly traveling and promoting Kansas to the wealthy to raise capital…
I just wonder if it isn’t too much? To the point where Bill has to compromise the basketball program for the sake of the entire athletic department.
I suspect this to be true, and would like people who know more about it than I make comments to educate us all.
This is all about adapting to the personnel that you have available.
College coaches have to be willing to adapt because you are not always guaranteed to have a specific group of players at your disposal.
Much was made of Calipari and his dribble drive motion offense when he was at Memphis. I would point out that, during his time at UK, Calipari has not run much dribble drive motion. Why? Well, if you had DeMarcus Cousins, Patrick Patterson, Terrence Jones, Anthony Davis, Nerlens Noel, Julius Randle and your choice of 7 footers as post options why on earth would you run a perimeter based offense? That’s not a knock on the guards he has had. It’s just a simple truth. He’s had some great inside players and he has used that to his advantage.
Coach Self needs to do the same thing, except in reverse. Sure, when you have Wayne Simien, Darrell Arthur, Cole Aldrich, the Morris twins, and Thomas Robinson, pounding the ball inside is a great plan because you have talented, NBA caliber interior players to work with. Of KU’s bigs that finished last season (not counting Embiid due to injury), only Perry might play in the NBA, and if he does, it will not be as a post player. Of the KU bigs this year besides Perry only Alexander will likely play in the NBA, and if he does, it will be due to his rebounding and energy, not because of his offensive post game.
But look on the perimeter. Frank has an outside shot at playing in the NBA. Wayne has as good a chance as Perry to play in the NBA. Brannen can if he ever decides to defend. Svi probably will. Kelly will.
I don’t think its a requirement to compromise the basketball program. We have the pieces. It’s just time to put square pegs in square holes and ignore the round holes this season because we just don’t have any round pieces. Let’s play to our strengths.
Is KU good - obviously yes.
Can KU be great? Yes, but in order to do that, it falls on Kelly and Wayne.
I’m just putting it out there. Kelly is the player with the highest ceiling on this team. If he emerges, this team could take off. You could see it a little bit on Monday in the loss. This team needed someone to grab the game by the throat and go off. Kelly is that guy. His talent says it. Time will tell if his personality says the same.
The key now is how Self reacts to this. The safe play is to go back to basics, pound the ball inside and hope that’s enough. The riskier play (but with a greater payoff) is to walk into practice and tell Kelly that they are going to follow him into the fire from here on out. Yeah, it’s scary to look into the eyes of a freshman that was barely in the rotation two weeks ago and say the season rides on him, but Kelly is the best talent on the team. With great power comes great responsibility.
Kip_McSmithers last edited by
@justanotherfan : Great post. I have a feeling next Tuesday we will be pounding the ball inside. And this is very unfortunate… Self has a hard enough time changing things up at half time (waiting too long to press, not switching Ds, never switching Os…). And wasn’t it last year that he mentioned something about the amount of plays they have that makes it difficult to relearn a brand new O or D mid-season??
@justanotherfan I reiterate you should get many upvotes for your posts. If I had 3 flippin’ thumbs , all of them would be vertical.
icthawkfan316 last edited by
To anyone pining for Ol’ Roy, what’s his record against Self? What’s UNC’s record this year? Maybe it’s that people want '97/'03 Roy back. Good luck with that.
Much as I asked that people not go overboard after the Lafayette win (I think some were stitching Hunter’s name & number on banners), we also shouldn’t overreact to one loss, no matter how ugly, that was on the road two days after the Lafayette game. I don’t disagree with some of the analysis, I just think some of the emotional reaction is over-the-top and unjustified.
Maybe “Missing Devonte” was responsible. Take nothing away from Mason who was working hard to create his own shots in a night where most of his team mates seem to have disappeared. Maybe, the option of playing small was the missing part in term of matchup for that game. Maybe while Mason was driving we need a true PG to read the floor and send the ball to the next guy who is available at the best place and time to score.
KUSTEVE last edited by KUSTEVE
@Shanghai_RCJH Yahtsee. I think having Devonte in the lineup helps Frank’s game, as well as our team. Good point.
Frank and devonte are pretty darn good together too.