This settles the 10 in a row question HEM brought up.
@HighEliteMajor I just heard today that Nick Saban has won 2 SEC championships in his seven years in Tuscaloosa. Of course, he’s won 3 NC’s while there, plus the NC at LSU. He isn’t known as the best coach in the country for those measly two SEC championships. In fact, if you could compare the two, I’d suppose most people, even a lot of Jayhawk fans would be willing to admit that Nick is a more successful coach at this point of their careers than Bill.
@wissoxfan83 Not me.
Now if Nick were coaching basketball and Bill were coaching football things might be different.
Just met areal fine hs fb coach. From rock hurst high. Trent green’s son is his starting qb.
JayHawkFanToo last edited by JayHawkFanToo
Well…statistics can be miss leading.
It is one thing to look at the regular season finish in football like you would the regular season finish in Basketball and the Title game like you would the Conference Tournament in basketball and a different one to just look at the last game. If you look a the regular season minus title game, Saban’s teams finished first in their division 2 out of 5 years at LSU and 4 out of 7 years at Alabama; that is 6 first place finishes in 12 years in the SEC. BTW, he also won one SEC Tournament at LSU. So, the success he had during the regular season led to the National Titles.
Also, it is very difficult to compare a football season with a basketball season.
Football: at most 14 games. If the team has a great season and finishes at or near the top it has a good chance to play and win one game to get a National Championship. Lose one game (conference or not) and you chances of playing for the national title are greatly diminished, lose two and you have little or no chance; so, excellence during the season is critical to have a shot at the National Title.
Basketball: 30+ games (KU has averaged 36 games during the Bill Self Tenure. If the team has a great season and finishes near the top it gets a chance, along with 67 other teams, to play and win 6 games to get a Championship. You can lose several conference games and not win the regular or post season titles and not be ranked in the top 25 and still get a shot at the title, like KU did in 1988. If the title would be defined in one game played by the top 2 teams, how many times would KU gas been in that game?
Football; 30+ starting players and 40+ see action during the game. If one starting player get injured you lose 2-3% of your starters; although some loses are bigger than others.
Basketball: 5 starting players and 8-9 see action during the game. If one starting player gets injured you lose 20% of your starters and the effect is much greater (see Embiid last season).
While a title in either sport is hard to get, the paths to the conference and national titles are quite different
Just sayin’…slow Saturday.
Well, I would agree that it settles the question as well – it is an excellent example. Saban, the best college football coach. Actually, I never even considered how many league titles he had won. Never thought about it. No matter how much respect one has for Self or the conference title thing, it’s just a different success.
Like winning a conference tourney … that’s a different type of success. You get to parade around like MU every so often. Win 10 regular season titles, and that is great accomplishment. A conference title makes you the master of 10, 11, or 12 … or whatever the number of conference teams there may be.
Being the national champion makes you the master of the universe.
Individuals are judged, too … how many division titles did Dan Marino win as a quarterback? Right, who cares. He never won a super bowl. How many division titles did Patrick Ewing or Karl Malone win. Hmmm … no one cares. We know the Braves won multiple division titles, but do we worship that? No.
Quick … how many league titles did the Jacque Vaughn led Jayhawks win? But you do know that they did not fulfill their potential – the potential being a national title.
Do we lament any year when we didn’t win the league title? Do we spend anytime talking about the league title that got away? We spend lots of time talking about 2003, or 2012, or 1997, or 2011 (Ugh, now I won’t sleep well tonight … damn 2011).
10 straight is an amazing streak. And it is the kind of streak that could put coach Self into the discussion of being in the top 5 college coaches of all time if … “if” … you know what the “if” is right? “If” he wins more national titles.
Without more titles, he’s a damn good coach.
National titles – winning the ultimate title – catapults one to a different level.
By the way, I did wear my league title shirt last week. I told my wife @drgnslayr said I had to. She was thankful by the way, since she’d bought me the shirt and I’d never worn it. I didn’t wear it in public yet, though. I have to take this stuff a step at a time.
KansasComet last edited by
The KU Experience!!! That’s what matters. There is nothing anyone can say to tarnish that. It’s the University of Kansas. Not winning the National Championship every year? So what? Who does? Last 30 years. The most won is 4. We have two, and list in the title game in 3 others. 5 championship games in the past 30 years. I believe 8 Final Fours in that timeframe? 8 times the Regional Champion. Damn…So on average The University of Kansas participates in the Final one every 3 point something years. Heroics from other teams kept us out of a few more or we would have at least 10. Basketball is a very easy game to watch. It is not an easy game to play/coach in front of thousands of people with your heart racing. I applaud every Kansas team for their efforts and win or lose, I will continue to support them in person or in the comfort of my own home. I hope my attempt at math is okay, it’s late. Go Jayhawks.
jaybate 1.0 last edited by jaybate 1.0
What would we all be thinking of Self right now if he had won his one ring, but had never won a single title during his tenure? What if instead of winning 30 games a season recently and 82% of his games, he had been winning 22-25 games per season and 72% of his games albeit with one ring? Would we think he was just as a good of a coach with one ring and no titles and 72% W&L statement, as we do with one ring, ten titles and 82%? Wouldn’t we be talking about KU needing to find another coach? Wouldn’t we be saying his one ring was a fluke? Wouldn’t the national media-gaming complex have completely forgotten Self as one of the important coaches to watch?
I am not trying to say that Self can be considered one of the all time greats without being fitted for a few more rings. But I am trying to say that the greatness of a coach has several variables and surely overall winning percentage and conference titles factor in significantly to the assessment.
drgnslayr last edited by
“By the way, I did wear my league title shirt last week. I told my wife @drgnslayr said I had to.”
I am proud of you for making the transition!
drgnslayr last edited by
I believe Self is a great coach for the same reason I damn him at times… He stubbornly believes in what he is doing.
There just aren’t that many coaches (or people) on this planet that stick hard to their identity. Self is the same guy that was at Illinois before coming here.
I also damn him for that because I’m always thinking he needs to try other things.
But guess what? The guy wins games better than anyone in the last whatever years.
That ends up creating conference championship streaks.
That ends up getting us solid seedings in March.
That ends up constantly bringing in better talent.
The only thing he could improve is March performance. If you look at everything else, you tend to believe that he’s trying to figure out that one last piece.
For that reason… I’m still a believer that he will figure out March. He seems to have figured out everything else, it is the last thing for him to perfect!
Compare him to anyone else. Calipari is winning games and a title. He’s recruiting the very best talent. But… he changes identity constantly and dreams about coaching LeBron… kind of seems the two are destined to be together.
Self had some success before he came to Kansas. He has bigger success at Kansas. He’s the same guy that arrived in Lawrence over a decade ago.
We are all believers. That’s why we spend our summers on this website. I love Kansas. I love Kansas basketball… but without Self, I would probably find better ways to spend my summers… or… maybe not!
I do have to admit that this has sort of outgrown Kansas basketball, and I just like everyone in here and all the unique, intelligent personalities.
HEM wearing a league shirt has made my day!
Isn’t it winning the Conference Championship pretty much a requirement for National Title? In other words, no Conference Title, no National Title.
How would you rate Saban if he had won 10 SEC Conference Titles in a row and only 1 National Title? Lower? Same? Higher?
Winning a conference title in and of itself is not that big of a deal, after all every conference has one champion every year; however, stringing 10 conference titles in a row in a major conference is a huge accomplishment and a feat seldom achieved, in any college or even professional sports and it indicates continuous excellence.
What is the difference between a good and a great player or coach or team?** CONSISTENCY**. Think about it. There have been many players/coaches that have amazed for a year or two, but the ones that are considered great are the ones that have performed at a high level CONSISTENTLY. It is really that simple and it is what makes the 10 titles in a row exceptional; even more so than UCLA’s streak that was achieved in a time with little parity and a few dominant teams, or the Gonzaga streak that was achieved in mid-major conference that routinely sends 1 0r 2 teams to the dance. The KU streak was achieved in a major conference that routinely sends 60% of it teams to the dance and great parity in the sport. Keep in mind that 4 of those titles were shared, so it is not like KU played in conference with no competition. like UCLA during its streak and Gonzaga then and now…
I will give you a good example, UConn. The basketball team has won 4 NCAA titles in the last 15 years, pretty incredible. right? But I challenge you to find any reputable publication that ranks the UConn program ahead of KU. I have searched and found at least 2o different publications that have ranked programs over the last couple of year and not one of them has UConn ahead of KU, not one of them.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
@drgnslayr If someone gets me a KU conference champion T-Shirt I’ll wear it too!
@KansasComet I do like what you wrote about 2 titles in 30 years being just less than the most. 8 FF’s is right up there as well obviously, so thanks for reminding us that Final Fours are a pinnacle of sorts and we’ve been more than blessed with those at KU. I cherish every final four memory, much more than the conference title memories.
@JayHawkFanToo Many teams win national titles without conference titles.
You cite publications ranking programs. Yippee. There is no way in holy he** that any program is greater than UConn over the last 15 seasons. What program wouldn’t trade places with them during that span? Four national titles.
Apparently, you wouldn’t. I like pizza. I can’t help folks that don’t. And I don’t understand how someone doesn’t like pizza.
Maybe this national title thing is like the guy that swears that he likes his 2002 Honda Civic, and would never want a new car. It’s a rationalization. He says he doesn’t want the new car because he can’t afford it. Or maybe he doesn’t want the new car because his value system is just different.
Here, I just can’t even comprehend it, to be honest. But it is just that – either folks are rationalizing to make themselves feel better, or their value system is just different.
I’m interested to see one “publication” that ranks programs over the last 15 or 20 years that has KU ahead of UConn after their 4th title.
In those points rankings by publications, I give everything minimal points and a national title 100 points. Can’t beat it even adding up everything else.
You can test yourself – Let’s assume KU goes 39-0 in 2012, 2013, and 2014, yet loses in the title game every season. In 2012, TRob is the national POY; in 2013, Withey is the national POY; and in 2014, Wiggins is the national POY. We win all three conference titles. Self is coach of the year every year.
You basically have the best possible result every season, all the glory and press, except the national title.
Would you rather have those three seasons, or say average UConn seasons in 2012 and 2013 and in 2014, KU wins the title.
If you deny that you’d take the title, it’s either a big rationalization, or it’s simply what you place value on.
@KansasComet – he’s clearly in the latter category. His value system is quite clear. All things KU make him happy and let him enjoy life. No rationalizing there. I admire that. I don’t understand it, but I admire it.
But wait … let’s say KU goes 8-22, 10-20, and then in 2014 KU goes 12-18, wins the league tournament, and makes a miraculous run for the title.
Ok, you got me. There is a level where I wouldn’t value the title as much. So I might place value on something more than a national title.
I enjoy national titles far and away more than anything else. The ultimate prize is the only thing that is ultimately satisfying. But that is given the current landscape of things. If KU hoops went in the tank, that odd national title might not make me as happy.
But UConn isn’t that. UConn has been an excellent program, with some valleys, and four wonderful peaks. I just enjoy the mountain tops much more than I enjoy stopping at various plateaus along the way. Look, we are a great program. I know that. We should just have two more rings in the past 30 years than we achieved. If we had won in 1997 and 2011, we wouldn’t be debating this – or at least I wouldn’t.
Let’s get the ring this season … then go back to back in 2015-16. Agreed?
@JayHawkFanToo I’d take 4 NC’s in the last 15 years. That’s what it’s all about.
JayHawkFanToo last edited by JayHawkFanToo
You wrote: “Many teams win national titles without conference titles.”
Which is exactly what I said repeatedly is true for basketball; however, if you want to play for the title in football, you better win your conference first or else your chances to play in the title game are minimal.
You are assuming that everybody feels that a national title in basketball is the be all, end all for everybody. It is not. Many of us feel that the teams that win the NCAA are not necessarily the best teams in college basketball. Again, as I have repeatedly mentioned before, you don’t have to win your conference regular or post season titles to go to the dance, and if you get lucky for 6 games you are the National Champion.
Let’s look at the two teams in question and the titles they won. Can you honestly tell me that the '88 KU National Championship Team was the best team in college that year? It was not even the best team in the conference; it finished a distant 3rd in the Big 8 and it was not even ranked in the top 25 for the last 10 weeks of the season. How about UConn’s last year’s Championship team? Can you tell me with a straight face that it was the best team in college basketball? It was not even the best team in its own conference where, much like KU in '88, finished a distant third and the highest it was ranked in the last 10 weeks of the season was #18. Now way, no how, no ma’am UConn was the best team in college basketball last year. Again, much like KU in '88, UConn got lucky for 6 games and won the Tournament.
As far as using the 2002 Honda Civic as an example does not make any sense. I own a mint 2001 BMW Z3 3.0Lwith 25,000 miles that I would not trade for any other car. That particular model, engine size and particularly the color had a very limited production and it also has the color matched hard top of which only 5 were made throughout the entire 6 year production run of the car, so it is a very rare combination that is becoming a collector’s car. As much as I like the car and as much as I would not part with it, there is no way I would say that it can outperform or is better than a comparable 2015 car; liking the car and being objective are not mutually exclusive.
Apparently most sports writers and publications that have been ranking programs have a view closer to mine in relation to the weight they assign to National Championships and Conference titles. Just because you think that a National Championship is worth 100 times more than a major conference title does not make it so, any more than my belief that the difference is not nearly as much. Once more, just because you believe the UConn program is better than KU does not make it so. We both have opinions and it is exactly what they are…subjective opinions and neither is better or more correct than the other; they are simply different, subjective opinions.
Would you trade the UConn program of the last 15 years for the KU program of the same 15 years? I would not.
@JayHawkFanToo You know, I recognized the difference in opinion … that’s my reference to what folks “value.” Kind of the point of my post, which you ignore. I’m not saying my opinion is the gospel. I’m just saying that I don’t understand, nor comprehend, anyone with a competitive bone in their bodies, saying that national titles are not the most important criteria in judging a basketball program.
It’s odd … you say the Honda civic example makes no sense. Then you prove my point by acknowledging that your 2001 BMW may not “outperform” and may not be “better” than a comparable 2015 car. Your example demonstrates what I’ve suggested. Further, you misuse the example. It’s not a “comparable” 2015 car I’m comparing it to. Would I rather have a 1968 Camaro than a 2014 Camaro? Sure, I would. But I mentioned a 2002 beater (not a collector’s car, or a BMW) to illustrate the point on rationality.
So you’re saying folks don’t rationalize their existence or circumstance? We hear MU fans do it all the the time, don’t we? Explaining why final fours don’t matter, or why winning the league conference tournament is better than anything KU has done. And you can’t recognize that, perhaps … just perhaps … not winning national titles leads KU fans to rationalize that the alleged value of conference titles somehow trumps national titles?
Again, I’m curious, can you cite to me any “rankings” that consider UConn’s 4th national title in the last 15-20 years? I’d like to see the logic of the “rankings.”
- Conference titles are to college basketball as save points are to video game levels.
- Conference titles are to college basketball as midterm tests are to a report card.
- Conference titles are to college basketball as nationals in track and field are to the Olympics.
- Conference titles are to college basketball as annual raises are to a promotion.
MoonwalkMafia last edited by
@approxinfinity Hahaha. Great post.
@approxinfinity WHAT’S AN ANNUAL RAISE?
drgnslayr last edited by drgnslayr
I guess we are going to beat this horse carcass to the point that even the mob wouldn’t use the head as an alarm clock.
This entire subject on National Championships will never be resolved because it is just one of those things that illustrate personality differences in people.
Also… it is an issue only at top schools who are constantly in the running, because at lower schools, the fans would just be into self-torture to expect the big trophy every year and never never get one!
Personally… I know we are not going to win the NC every year. So I don’t want to set myself up for disappointment most years. I want to enjoy the year of basketball and I want to be left with positives of most teams outweighing the negatives. If I put all my focus on NCs, then most years I will be flat-out disappointed, and that will outweigh everything. I will be left with a bitter taste from my hobby of admiring all the great players (and coaches) each year. That simply is not very satisfying.
Plus… I know what is involved in winning it all. Skill and team work is definitely a big part of it, but also luck and a hot streak are every bit as important. That is why we usually crown a team that most feel are not the best team from that year.
I’m not saying I don’t have years where I am clearly disappointed in the results. I pretty much always expect that we should make the Sweet 16, and often further. That final loss is always painful… but I’m not going to blend that in with always expecting the NC or I will not think back positively on that team later.
I believe you missed my point about the car example. Your assertion is that if you like one particular car you ***CANNOT *** be objective about other cars and you will use faulty logic to make your car be the best. That is not at all what I wrote.
What I meant to say and I believe I did (in bold italics) is to indicate that as much as you like your old car, you CAN still be objective and admit that the newer cars can be better and/outperform it. Likewise. I can like the KU program a lot and still be objective about other programs; THE TWO POSITIONS ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.
Quick question…given the choice, would you take a fancier title at work or would you take a nice raise instead?
I will tell you my answer. When I was young and building my resume, I would have taken the fancier title; as I got older and have already established my credentials, I could not care less about the title and would take the raise any day. I believe it pretty much parallels my view on basketball titles.
ParisHawk last edited by
@drgnslayr I am in total agreement with you and could not imagine expressing my view better!
As far as disappointment is concerned, I try to moderate my expectations - not my hopes, but my expectations.
I use the Tournament seedings to set my expectations, a bit like others who use the ranking to set expectations for new recruits (aHEM!)
If we are a 1 seed, I expect to make the Final Four - not win the NC, but make the Final Four. If we are a 2 seed, I expect to make the Elite Eight. In other words, I expect us to play to our seed.
I’ve mentioned before that KU’s home field advantage could be a small contributing factor to Tournament disappointment. Our home field advantage may give us an extra win or make us seem a bit better, which leads to a higher seed than we may “deserve”, which leads to underperforming our seed in the Tournament.
Whether that’s a factor or not, I try not to be disappointed if we play to seed. It is true that often we have not.
Now that I think about it, I’d rather win conference and the NC 10 years in a row.
Ok, I looked at the numbers – UConn vs. KU from 1999-2014. That has been the discussion. The issue is, would you take UConn’s men’s basketball accomplishments highlighted by 4 national titles, over KU’s men’s basketball accomplishments, highlighted by 1 national title and 12 conference titles over that 16 season period of time.
Total Wins: 433 – 27.06 per year
Conference Titles: 5
Conference Tourney Titles: 4
NCAA Appearances: 12
Elite Eights: 7
Final Fours: 5
National Titles: 4
Total Wins: 459 – 28.68 per year
Conference Titles: 12
Conference Tourney Titles: 7
NCAA Appearances: 16
Elite Eights: 6
Final Fours: 4
National Titles: 1
So, for those that vote “KU”, please remember that your vaunted conference titles come against a conference that was inferior to UConn’s conference (Big East). I know that pains some, but do you really think we would have won even half our league titles if UConn, Syracuse, Georgetown, Villanova, Marquette, and Pittsburgh would been in our conference during that period of time? Heck, UConn won 5 conference titles in this stretch and 4 conference tournaments with that competition.
The conference titles are inflated due to our competition. I saw the comment about Gonzaga’s titles vs. “mid-majors.” Right, is it too hard to take that thought one step further? There might be D-1 teams that just aren’t as good as other D-1 teams, right?
But really, even without considering if conference titles were a touch diluted, look at the numbers.
Would you trade KU’s resume for UConn’s resume? Ok, you miss the tourney a few times and get an extra win and a half per season… But you get more Elite Eights, more Final Fours, and more National Titles with UConn’s resume. Heck, what is the value of have 1.62 more wins per season. Or what is the value of making the tourney and losing early to Bucknell, Bradley, UNI, vs. not making it at all (coupled with the astronomical success that accompanied it).
This isn’t about whether you love KU. The discussion is whether you would rather have what UConn has done in the past 16 seasons, or what KU has done in that same time period.
It is a decisive knockout in favor of UConn’s resume.
Please, rationalize for me. Tell how KU’s resume is better. The sky is not green, and grass is not orange.
@JayHawkFanToo Your “fancier title at work” vs. “a nice raise” example is exactly on point.
“Fancier title at work” = the window dressing. Style over substance. The stuff that makes you feel good and allows you to rationalize to others why you do what you do. The stuff other than a national title.
“Nice raise” = the meat and potatoes. The bottom-line. The actual substance. The national title.
The national title speaks for itself. You point to the ring, you say “kiss the ring”. While others have to find arguments to convince everyone how great they are, you sit quietly knowing that you need not prove anything.
@HighEliteMajor I want conference titles. I want National titles. I want to rule the Universe.
Crimsonorblue22 last edited by
Asked about the specific criteria that set KU apart, Jonas pointed to the Jayhawks’ five-year record — No. 1 in all of college basketball — plus preseason rankings, expected returners and last year’s RPI. A smaller, more speculative factor also played a role.
I’ll take KU, if you want uconn, go ahead!
JayhawkRock78 last edited by
Okay, you have a point at the last 5 years KU (oranges) but for the 16 year UCONN sample (apples) I would take Uconn in a heartbeat.
But for the history day 1 forward it is KU all the way.
@Crimsonorblue22 Who is Jonas and what are you talking about? I may have missed something there.
But even in the last five years, UConn has two final fours and two national titles. We have one final four, no titles. KU has 156 total wins, UConn 121. A pretty big difference. UConn no conference titles, KU five. No surprise, but I’d take UConn’s resume over the last five years as well.
Interesting how this dynamic changes if we win the National Title in 2011 as we should have. UConn doesn’t have four, they have three. We have two in that time period. A different conversation.
Crimsonorblue22 last edited by Crimsonorblue22
@HighEliteMajor Jonas is the deputy head of the USA delegation for the Games. For the record, national titles are the ultimate goal, but that doesn’t lessen the importance of conference champs! It also is important, to me, that our record has been pretty clean!!!
@JayHawkFanToo I would take the more prestigious job title. As you said, earlier in a career, the title is more important, and in my experience the money will follow the job title.
I would argue that unlike an individual’s career, KU basketball never retires, it is effectively always the young and hungry professional, so in the analogy, the annual pay increase will always be a consolation prize to a title promotion, which everyone recognizes. This is maybe less universal and more specific to my work than I originally thought (@nuleafjhawk).
@nuleafjhawk You want a raise? C’mon backwards, we’ll raise you up.- Or, as we say in the country, “backerdz.”
@drgnslayr I say take it or leave it, but either way. just let the controversy go. Whatever makes you happy…
If you look at just stats & none of the above spin…
It’s pretty much a no brainer…Hello? Lock em’ up guys & take a break.
KansasComet last edited by
I cheer for KU. I do not want UCONN’s record or Championships. I get disappointed when we lose. I am elated when we win. I look at each season as a “chance” to win it all. It hurts when we lose, but then again, I know and accept my role. I am a fan. I have never thrown up in a trash can during “boot camp”, been frustrated by sitting bench, or nailed a game winning shot for KU. All I can give is my undying support. I enjoy the ride every single year, and I will enjoy this year too!
@KansasComet Yes, yes … if KU went 0-30, and UConn went 40-0 and won the national title, you’d take KU’s record, and cheering for KU would be all that mattered. You are just a fan.
Crimsonorblue22 last edited by
@HighEliteMajor and that is all I am, JUST a fan. Patronizing other posters makes you, just an ?
@Crimsonorblue22 Alright alright, time to shut this puppy down! Man, we’re getting stir crazy and we’ve got two months to go… Show’s OVAH!! Next!