Jayhawks in the NBA -- 2022
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@mayjay said in Jayhawks in the NBA -- 2022:
@wissox 37 years and still obsessed! You post about K in that game, and the Wisc game, so often that I wonder if you remember Brown, Williams, and Self ever talking to the refs. Or do they just never try to influence them and smile graciously?
That game made an oversized impression on the fans that are old enough to remember growing up with KU Basketball never being on TV, rarely making the tournament and when they did, bowing out promptly in the first round.
For me, that run to the Final Four was the beginning of the resurgence of KU’s program. That game was the beginning of a rivalry with Duke. And it was validation that KU had a coach who could compete on the biggest stage.
That game lives rent free and that’s a good thing. Without that chip, maybe we don’t have the same tournament run for 37 years (ignoring 1989).
As for the reason for the loss, I ascribe it more to the Archie Marshall injury than anything else… but I think we all agree that if we play Louisville, they go down again.
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@bskeet The Archie Marshall injuries were so heartbreaking! Motivated the '88 team, for sure.
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@bskeet said in Jayhawks in the NBA -- 2022:
@mayjay said in Jayhawks in the NBA -- 2022:
@wissox 37 years and still obsessed! You post about K in that game, and the Wisc game, so often that I wonder if you remember Brown, Williams, and Self ever talking to the refs. Or do they just never try to influence them and smile graciously?
That game made an oversized impression on the fans that are old enough to remember growing up with KU Basketball never being on TV, rarely making the tournament and when they did, bowing out promptly in the first round.
For me, that run to the Final Four was the beginning of the resurgence of KU’s program. That game was the beginning of a rivalry with Duke. And it was validation that KU had a coach who could compete on the biggest stage.
That game lives rent free and that’s a good thing. Without that chip, maybe we don’t have the same tournament run for 37 years (ignoring 1989).
As for the reason for the loss, I ascribe it more to the Archie Marshall injury than anything else… but I think we all agree that if we play Louisville, they go down again.
That was the game where we felt we had arrived. The Marshall injury was devastating, but it paved the way for 88 and the Miracle. And we haven’t slowed down since. We have been so lucky to have followed one of the greatest dynasties in American sports history.
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I still really kind of think the 86 team was our best team, at least since I’ve been paying attention. Great combination of veterans and young guys, great guard, great center, Danny, great shooting, would have love to see that group with a 3 point line, strong bench. Preseason #5, never higher than #9, and had won 16 in a row before being beat fair and square in the FF. @bskeet, the Marshall injury was tough and came near the end. But we had 4 guys foul out. Pretty significant factor as well.
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@wissox Better than ‘97? I would like to see the ‘97 team play the ‘08 team. Would be a battle!
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@dylans Obviously it’s an unprovable argument. 86 team beat the national champs twice! 97 team lost to the national champs! I know 97 was awesome and I surely would lose this argument a lot of times, but I also might win it a number of times too.
Funny thing is the 08 team, while super tough and resilient, paled slightly compared to the others mentioned. I don’t think the 22 version was the best of the best KU teams either! But they both won praise the lord and are legendary teams.
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@wissox said in Jayhawks in the NBA -- 2022:
@dylans Obviously it’s an unprovable argument. 86 team beat the national champs twice! 97 team lost to the national champs! I know 97 was awesome and I surely would lose this argument a lot of times, but I also might win it a number of times too.
Funny thing is the 08 team, while super tough and resilient, paled slightly compared to the others mentioned. I don’t think the 22 version was the best of the best KU teams either! But they both won praise the lord and are legendary teams.
The Danny and the Miracles team might be the most bizarre national title team ever. We all know why they’re called the Miracles, but if you told someone entering the season that KU would wind up winning the national title, not many would’ve batted an eye or been surprised by that outcome since KU was a preseason top 10 team. Everything between those two points tells a very different story obviously.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Jayhawks in the NBA -- 2022:
@wissox said in Jayhawks in the NBA -- 2022:
@dylans Obviously it’s an unprovable argument. 86 team beat the national champs twice! 97 team lost to the national champs! I know 97 was awesome and I surely would lose this argument a lot of times, but I also might win it a number of times too.
Funny thing is the 08 team, while super tough and resilient, paled slightly compared to the others mentioned. I don’t think the 22 version was the best of the best KU teams either! But they both won praise the lord and are legendary teams.
The Danny and the Miracles team might be the most bizarre national title team ever. We all know why they’re called the Miracles, but if you told someone entering the season that KU would wind up winning the national title, not many would’ve batted an eye or been surprised by that outcome since KU was a preseason top 10 team. Everything between those two points tells a very different story obviously.
We weren’t even close to being Top 10 that year. Maybe preseason we were thrown in the Top 10 based on the year before, but we were seriously lacking that year.
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@wissox said in Jayhawks in the NBA -- 2022:
I still really kind of think the 86 team was our best team, at least since I’ve been paying attention. Great combination of veterans and young guys, great guard, great center, Danny, great shooting, would have love to see that group with a 3 point line, strong bench. Preseason #5, never higher than #9, and had won 16 in a row before being beat fair and square in the FF. @bskeet, the Marshall injury was tough and came near the end. But we had 4 guys foul out. Pretty significant factor as well.
Not the best but probably one of the Top 5 KU teams of all time, imho. That team was LOADED.
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@Jethro said in Jayhawks in the NBA -- 2022:
@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Jayhawks in the NBA -- 2022:
@wissox said in Jayhawks in the NBA -- 2022:
@dylans Obviously it’s an unprovable argument. 86 team beat the national champs twice! 97 team lost to the national champs! I know 97 was awesome and I surely would lose this argument a lot of times, but I also might win it a number of times too.
Funny thing is the 08 team, while super tough and resilient, paled slightly compared to the others mentioned. I don’t think the 22 version was the best of the best KU teams either! But they both won praise the lord and are legendary teams.
The Danny and the Miracles team might be the most bizarre national title team ever. We all know why they’re called the Miracles, but if you told someone entering the season that KU would wind up winning the national title, not many would’ve batted an eye or been surprised by that outcome since KU was a preseason top 10 team. Everything between those two points tells a very different story obviously.
We weren’t even close to being Top 10 that year. Maybe preseason we were thrown in the Top 10 based on the year before, but we were seriously lacking that year.
That’s the point, KU had high expectations entering the season and that if you told someone before that season started that it would end with KU winning a title, it wouldn’t have surprised that many people. This is also why I ended my statement with the journey between the start of the season and the title tells a very a different story about how that season went.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Jayhawks in the NBA -- 2022:
@Jethro said in Jayhawks in the NBA -- 2022:
@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Jayhawks in the NBA -- 2022:
@wissox said in Jayhawks in the NBA -- 2022:
@dylans Obviously it’s an unprovable argument. 86 team beat the national champs twice! 97 team lost to the national champs! I know 97 was awesome and I surely would lose this argument a lot of times, but I also might win it a number of times too.
Funny thing is the 08 team, while super tough and resilient, paled slightly compared to the others mentioned. I don’t think the 22 version was the best of the best KU teams either! But they both won praise the lord and are legendary teams.
The Danny and the Miracles team might be the most bizarre national title team ever. We all know why they’re called the Miracles, but if you told someone entering the season that KU would wind up winning the national title, not many would’ve batted an eye or been surprised by that outcome since KU was a preseason top 10 team. Everything between those two points tells a very different story obviously.
We weren’t even close to being Top 10 that year. Maybe preseason we were thrown in the Top 10 based on the year before, but we were seriously lacking that year.
That’s the point, KU had high expectations entering the season and that if you told someone before that season started that it would end with KU winning a title, it wouldn’t have surprised that many people. This is also why I ended my statement with the journey between the start of the season and the title tells a very a different story about how that season went.
So, you think after losing every starter off the 86’ team other than Danny we all thought 88 was in the bag? I assure you that was not the case.
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@Jethro said in Jayhawks in the NBA -- 2022:
@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Jayhawks in the NBA -- 2022:
@Jethro said in Jayhawks in the NBA -- 2022:
@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Jayhawks in the NBA -- 2022:
@wissox said in Jayhawks in the NBA -- 2022:
@dylans Obviously it’s an unprovable argument. 86 team beat the national champs twice! 97 team lost to the national champs! I know 97 was awesome and I surely would lose this argument a lot of times, but I also might win it a number of times too.
Funny thing is the 08 team, while super tough and resilient, paled slightly compared to the others mentioned. I don’t think the 22 version was the best of the best KU teams either! But they both won praise the lord and are legendary teams.
The Danny and the Miracles team might be the most bizarre national title team ever. We all know why they’re called the Miracles, but if you told someone entering the season that KU would wind up winning the national title, not many would’ve batted an eye or been surprised by that outcome since KU was a preseason top 10 team. Everything between those two points tells a very different story obviously.
We weren’t even close to being Top 10 that year. Maybe preseason we were thrown in the Top 10 based on the year before, but we were seriously lacking that year.
That’s the point, KU had high expectations entering the season and that if you told someone before that season started that it would end with KU winning a title, it wouldn’t have surprised that many people. This is also why I ended my statement with the journey between the start of the season and the title tells a very a different story about how that season went.
So, you think after losing every starter off the 86’ team other than Danny we all thought 88 was in the bag? I assure you that was not the case.
Had KU entered the '87-88 season having lost 4 starters, I think that’d be a valid point, but that’s not reality now is it. KU did take some lumps during the '86-87 season which was to be expected, but still managed to finish in the top 20 of the polls with a Sweet 16 appearance, not too bad for a rebuilding year amd not all that different from our '08-09 team in a similar boat.
So, going into the '87-88 season, KU was coming off of a Sweet 16 appearance and returning 4 starters off of that team, includingDanny Manning. Based on that reality, KU was a justified preseason top 10 team with national title aspirations having the best player in country anchoring their team.
So again, if a team is coming off of a Sweet 16 appearance, returns 4 starters with one of those being the consensus best player in college basketball and you tell someone before any games tip off that season that team will win a national title, it wouldn’t surprise many people.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Jayhawks in the NBA -- 2022:
@Jethro said in Jayhawks in the NBA -- 2022:
@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Jayhawks in the NBA -- 2022:
@Jethro said in Jayhawks in the NBA -- 2022:
@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Jayhawks in the NBA -- 2022:
@wissox said in Jayhawks in the NBA -- 2022:
@dylans Obviously it’s an unprovable argument. 86 team beat the national champs twice! 97 team lost to the national champs! I know 97 was awesome and I surely would lose this argument a lot of times, but I also might win it a number of times too.
Funny thing is the 08 team, while super tough and resilient, paled slightly compared to the others mentioned. I don’t think the 22 version was the best of the best KU teams either! But they both won praise the lord and are legendary teams.
The Danny and the Miracles team might be the most bizarre national title team ever. We all know why they’re called the Miracles, but if you told someone entering the season that KU would wind up winning the national title, not many would’ve batted an eye or been surprised by that outcome since KU was a preseason top 10 team. Everything between those two points tells a very different story obviously.
We weren’t even close to being Top 10 that year. Maybe preseason we were thrown in the Top 10 based on the year before, but we were seriously lacking that year.
That’s the point, KU had high expectations entering the season and that if you told someone before that season started that it would end with KU winning a title, it wouldn’t have surprised that many people. This is also why I ended my statement with the journey between the start of the season and the title tells a very a different story about how that season went.
So, you think after losing every starter off the 86’ team other than Danny we all thought 88 was in the bag? I assure you that was not the case.
Had KU entered the '87-88 season having lost 4 starters, I think that’d be a valid point, but that’s not reality now is it. KU did take some lumps during the '86-87 season which was to be expected, but still managed to finish in the top 20 of the polls with a Sweet 16 appearance, not too bad for a rebuilding year amd not all that different from our '08-09 team in a similar boat.
So, going into the '87-88 season, KU was coming off of a Sweet 16 appearance and returning 4 starters off of that team, includingDanny Manning. Based on that reality, KU was a justified preseason top 10 team with national title aspirations having the best player in country anchoring their team.
So again, if a team is coming off of a Sweet 16 appearance, returns 4 starters with one of those being the consensus best player in college basketball and you tell someone before any games tip off that season that team will win a national title, it wouldn’t surprise many people.
I’m probably misremembering it. I know I was talking to my brother in law back then all the time, and I remember us both thinking it was going to be a tough road to hoe. OU was simply better than us that year, which loomed over our expectations that year.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I do remember at Late Night they did a little lip sync thing with the Kansas City song with the line Kansas City here I come. It was a nod to the FF being played just down the road. I don’t recall thinking yeah right as they were singing. I thought we had a chance, but then the season started!
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They were preseason #7 that season but had a disastrous trip to Hawaii losing to the BIG Iowa and Illinois. That was a good Illini team but Iowa must’ve been really good as they were ranked 11 when we played them and they waxed us. We dropped out of the polls in the middle of January, and then lost five straight. We suffered the first home loss in my time at KU against Mitch Richmond and KSU, then lost to Oklahoma at home and our next home game we lost to Duke. Suddenly we had a 3 game home loss streak, but the 3 teams that got us at home you may recognize as our last three opponents in the tournament and we certainly avenged those losses!
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@wissox what a sweet storyline! Must have been very satisfying as a fan. Felt like the luckiest fans on the planet for one shining moment?
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@approxinfinity It was so unexpected, yet we’d played Duke close in the loss at home, played OU close twice during the regular season, had beaten KSU near the end of the season, but lost to them again in the Big 8 tourney, so we kind of new we could at least hang with anyone in front of us.
Funny thing too is that even though we were unranked we got a 6 seed and played 18th ranked Xavier in the first round! Xavier must’ve been pissed about that seeding. Xaviers best player was Barry Larkin’s brother the HOF Reds shortstop. Then Murray State, an upset winner over 3 seed NC State (whom we had also beat during the reg season) nearly knocked us off with Danny preserving the win late.
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@wissox said in Jayhawks in the NBA -- 2022:
@dylans Obviously it’s an unprovable argument. 86 team beat the national champs twice! 97 team lost to the national champs! I know 97 was awesome and I surely would lose this argument a lot of times, but I also might win it a number of times too.
Funny thing is the 08 team, while super tough and resilient, paled slightly compared to the others mentioned. I don’t think the 22 version was the best of the best KU teams either! But they both won praise the lord and are legendary teams.
IMHO The ‘08 team would wipe the court with any other team Bill has trotted out. That defense was flat nasty. They took offense when the other team scored and might just go off on a 20-0 run purely out of spite.
96-97 was loaded in the post and Paul on the wing. Love me some Vaughn. Wow woulda coulda shoulda gone undefeated.
‘86 was before my time. Started watching in ‘90
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@dylans Yeah I wouldn’t argue 08 being the best Self team. That destruction of UNC was breathtaking. I also think if Wayne Simien was healthy in 03 that team goes on a UConn like run, or the way 'Nova did in 18 and we’d be talking about them as a GOAT like status. Poor Wayne couldn’t keep healthy and it derailed his NBA career as I recall.
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@dylans said in Jayhawks in the NBA -- 2022:
@wissox said in Jayhawks in the NBA -- 2022:
@dylans Obviously it’s an unprovable argument. 86 team beat the national champs twice! 97 team lost to the national champs! I know 97 was awesome and I surely would lose this argument a lot of times, but I also might win it a number of times too.
Funny thing is the 08 team, while super tough and resilient, paled slightly compared to the others mentioned. I don’t think the 22 version was the best of the best KU teams either! But they both won praise the lord and are legendary teams.
IMHO The ‘08 team would wipe the court with any other team Bill has trotted out. That defense was flat nasty. They took offense when the other team scored and might just go off on a 20-0 run purely out of spite.
96-97 was loaded in the post and Paul on the wing. Love me some Vaughn. Wow woulda coulda shoulda gone undefeated.
‘86 was before my time. Started watching in ‘90
I’d love to see a 7 game series between the '08 team and the '20 team. That 2020 team was an absolute monster of team defensively and I think they could pick and roll the 2008 to death with Dotson and Doke because I don’t think Jackson or Kaun could handle Doke down low. The big advantage the 2008 team would have is their outside shooting. Chalmers was at 47% and Rush was at 42% each at a very high volume and the 2020 team was not good from deep.
That to me would the keys between those two teams, could the 2020 team’s defense force the 2008 team into a bad shooting night and could the 2008 team take Doke out of the game? What would hurt the 2008 team’s chances at doing that is that none of Jackson, Kaun, and Darrell Arthur could shoot 3’s so they wouldn’t be able to pull Doke away from basket on defense.
I think if these two teams played a 7 game series, I would take the 2008 team in 6 or 7 games because I think they’d have enough good shooting nights even against that 2020 team’s defense which I would pick as Self’s best defensive team overall while 2008 would be his best offensive and probably 2nd best defensive team in my opinion.
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@dylans said in Jayhawks in the NBA -- 2022:
@wissox Better than ‘97? I would like to see the ‘97 team play the ‘08 team. Would be a battle!
Well, this would be a fun thread: Best KU teams to never win the championship.
I would submit there are 3 that would be vigorously argued for: 56-57, 85-86 and 96-97.
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@bskeet said in Jayhawks in the NBA -- 2022:
@dylans said in Jayhawks in the NBA -- 2022:
@wissox Better than ‘97? I would like to see the ‘97 team play the ‘08 team. Would be a battle!
Well, this would be a fun thread: Best KU teams to never win the championship.
I would submit there are 3 that would be vigorously argued for: 56-57, 85-86 and 96-97.
Add 2020 to that list as well.
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85-86. Started ranked 5th, never left the top ten, 2 losses to Duke, the other in MSG. Also lost at #9 Memphis and as they always did back then lost to Iowa St in Ames. That was an unranked loss, the others were top ten losses. They beat Louisville twice, featured NBA players Danny M, Ron Kellogg, and Greg Dreiling. Calvin Thompson briefly played too in the league.
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96-97 was a juggernaut and I don’t mind losing this argument. I just think the 85-86 version isn’t discussed as much because some of ya’ll were just little kids at the time! They were 2nd the first three seasons, and then ranked 1 the rest of the season. Double OT loss at Missouri only loss. Losing to eventual champ takes the sting off slightly, but most don’t remember that Jerrod Haase had a sore/broken(?) wrist for that Arizona game, tried to go but couldn’t play. That hurt a lot.
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2001-02 is not being discussed but as I look at it, they indeed deserve to be part of this discussion. Lost to Ball St. in game 1 at Maui, then just rolled only losing twice til the loss to Maryland, eventual champ in the final four. They featured 3 future long time NBA players, no wonder they won a lot of games. If you look at their schedule it’s a thing to behold as they went over 100 points 11 times. Somehow their low was 54 against Oklahoma, eventual FF team also with Kelvin Sampson as the coach that played stout defense. The slight blip against Ball dropped their ranking to 8th, but after winning at #4 Arizona never were ranked worse than 4th all season. Wow, how did that team not win it?
